My argument for why this Susan Boyle discussion is important

[Mike 03]

This is paraphrased from my response to another post, attempting to answer the question why it matters that we discuss this issue.

I said that ordinarily, I would probably agree with posts that said we had overdone this issue, that we have said everything that needs to be said, and that we should now shut up about it.

I remember that the same arguments were made over Prop 8 here, and how that infuriated the GLBT community.

My point is simply that I think this discourse has allegorical reverberations in that it has touched on an important aspect of our shallowness as a society.

That shallowness doesn't just have to do with Susan Boyle; it has to do with how we analyze, assess and judge damn near EVERYTHING, from the singers we like to the books we choose to read because the covers are glossy.

This silly chapter in Western history has simply exposed one of our most embarrassing tendencies: the need to equate the worth of art with the beauty of the artist.

Thankfully, in most artistic professions, this equation doesn't matter much, but it apparently still matters on television, or whever this lady appeared.

Other examples:

The majority of people who prefer U.S.A. Today to the New York Times, or Fox News to CBS radio or CNBC to Bloomberg. It's flashier.

IMO, the more time we spend analyzing our own pathetic superficiality, the more quickly we can mature as a society into a people we can be proud of, instead of remaining a constant, shallow, moronic embarrassment to ourselves.

[thunder rising]

1. But really ,,, who cares?

[Bobbieo]

5. Mike - Think Thunder Rising just made your point.

[medeak]

26. my thread was moved to entertainment... why?

why aren't all of them!

[obiwan]

34. As a butt-ugly 54 year old, I care.

This is about two myths that shouldn't matter in reality, but do:

Age and appearance.

This woman has overcome both.

I am very good at playing bass (40 years). I am also very intelligent. I have experienced first hand how this doesn't matter because I do not fit the norm physically for attractiveness.

No sour grapes here- that's reality.

[Skittles]

49. you're not butt-ugly, my sweet

the truly butt-ugly are those who think appearances trump all

[Bonobo]

2. The thing is...

It is the same shallowness that allowed them to sell the narrative to you.

And you all bought it, hook, line and sinker.

[roguevalley]

43. what fucking narrative? I sense something here and responded. it had

nothing to do with a 'narrative'. Really, people are smarter and more instinctive than you give them credit for.

[Donnachaidh]

3. uhh, shallow people don't analyze their own superficiality

They don't believe they are afflicted with that problem. :shrug:

[dustbunnie]

4. What discussion?

People are either fighting over her like two guys in a sports bar, or wringing their hands over whether she'll end up like the Neely O'Hara character from Valley of the Dolls.

[Bobbieo]

9. Not me DB - I accept her for what she is - a marvelous talent!!!!

[dustbunnie]

11. Sure, but you'd never have heard of her, and she wouldn't stand to change her life...

if it weren't for the superficiality of the show/culture in general. BGT, AI, all of these shows pander to the evil part of humans that love to watch people fail and make fools of themselves, and then turn around to cult worship the "winner du jour" for all of five minutes till the next distraction floats in.

If it weren't for all of this superficiality of the culture, she'd never have had an opportunity to use it for her own gain.

[obiwan]

35. For sure. Close your eyes.

She can sing very well, by any standard.

[ContinentalOp]

38. Except for, you know...

actual standards of professional singing.

[GoesTo11]

40. spoil sport

[lumberjack_jeff]

6. Enough Susan Boyle! I want to hear more about the Obama's dog!

:sarcasm:

I agree, I think that our reactions (both immediate and after hearing her sing) give some really fascinating insights into our superficial culture.

[roguevalley]

44. why is interest in a woman singing and coming from a background

that mitigated against her success superficial? cynicism is so boring, some people can't tell the difference between a genuine emotional moment and their own distrust of everything.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. I articulated poorly.

I think that we're superficial. That manifests itself in the prejudicial expectations the audience had of her based on her appearance, as well as the surprise and emotional impact when we heard her sing.

Her singing had impact precisely because it upset our stereotypes.

[Captain Hilts]

7. We associate height and deep voices with authority. We learn that as little kids.

We judge women by their beauty. Sometimes it helps them and sometimes it doesn't.

ps. USA Today's Circulation includes the BAZILLION of free copies given to hotel guests. It's hard to get the local paper dropped outside your door in a hotel now.

[XemaSab]

8. This thread needs some pictures

Here:

[JerseygirlCT]

10. I think part of what makes her so attractive

(and yes, not in the conventional sense, maybe) is her confidence. I'm sure she was terrified, but at the same time, she was herself. And she seemed to like that just fine, thank you very much. And then after sassing the entire audience with her refusal to crawl into a hole, apologizing because she wasn't blonde and a size 0, she hit them with the talent. She likes her, and she believes in her, and she's happy to share her with us all - and I think that's very attractive, indeed.

[BrklynLiberal]

16. Ditto

[nonconformist]

12. I think the hype is a reflection of shallowness, but not in the way you mean

I think it is a glaring example of how people are just SHOCKED TO SHIT and falling over themselves when someone who is unattractive has talent.

[drmeow]

32. I don't agree with you

I think part of the reaction is not so much shock that someone who is unattractive has talent but from the sheer, unadulterated joy of seeing someone "unattractive" hand Simon what-ever-the-f**k-his-name-is's A$$ to him by having talent. I think there is a significant subset of slightly frumpy middle-aged women who watch that video and thought, "Suck on this you judgmental pricks!" I also think ageism is a bigger piece here - the idea that anyone that age who has NOT already been discovered can't possibly have talent. I suspect that there are also many "no longer young" viewers who are watching that video and feeling like they still have something to offer - that even if it is never "discovered" they still have "talent" - whatever that talent might be.

I will say that when I first saw the video the way I reacted was not so much shock that she has talent (although I was surprised at the fact that she had obviously also had training, which is different than talent). As they started the music my reaction was more "Please, GOD, don't let this woman be awful and have them be nasty and ridiculing towards her!" And my pleasure came not from her talent but from seeing the judge's bias thrown in their faces.

The woman (who actually looks a little like Sarah Boyles) who first introduced me to the video said this:

"Hurray for middle-aged, overweight women...I don't know anyone middles-aged or fat..."

Don't underestimate the hype that comes from the majority of people in the world who look more like and have lives more like Sarah Boyle's than the usual successful contestant who are watching that video and simply LOVING seeing someone who "looks like me" succeed and show up those very prejudices that they hate (even though they are just as likely to have them as anyone else).

[pnwmom]

36. Great post. You said it well. n/t

[rucky]

13. It's just nice to have some good news every once in awhile.

shit fire, we needed it this week.

[imdjh]

14. Susan Boyle, pop star probably isn't going to happen.

But her choice of songs makes the point that she could have a career in musical theater, assuming that she can keep the schedule.

I wouldn't be too hard on the public, and I wouldn't expect a great deal of growth in this regard, if anything we should expect it to go the other way.

Let's face it, as much as they love to praise themselves, talent shows and amateur hours have shown up the big stars for what they really are- in general an acceptable level of talents mixed with presence, personality, luck, and maybe even sexual willingness or prowess. Oh, and a willingness to get up and out there, take no for an answer, be undeterred, and believe in themselves.

But as the nation's population grows, as the world's population grows, there will be little reason to expect anything less than perfection in all categories. Of course, tastes will vary, some people prefer Bob Dylan sung by Bob Dylan but as the pool grows larger a great poet with his finger on the pulse might also be expected to be able to sing. Elvis Presley was king in his day, but in the future the competition will be crowded with greater intellects, more compelling stories, physical fitness. We might even require 8x10 frontal nudes of all future stars.

Would Simon and Garfunkle be able to compete with a more handsome duo of equal talent? Who knows. Teenaged girls decide these things, and sometimes they like their guys sexless or what we might consider ugly and they consider safe. How many of the androgynous pin ups of Tiger Beat have lasting fame? And yet, it seems that few of these performers ever really go away. Even Robbie Douglas came out of the woodwork for the Frasure theme and Greg Brady makes children's sci-fi when he's not managing his store.

Susan Boyle surprised us, but I wouldn't expect a shift in the public consumer towards pure talent over all other considerations, especially when the arts and public dearly love to celebrate those who can do it all and have personal crisis after personal crisis to keep them on the see saw between disgust and compassion.

[ellenfl]

15. most of art is the right gimmick at the right time . . .

imo, many pop successes are merely the result of having the right gimmick. talent, however, should never be judged by any other standard. you know talent when you see/hear it just as you know mediocrity by the gimmicks attached to it . . . be it flash or nudity or whatever sparkly thing that will catch your eye.

i expect that susan boyle can have quite a recording career. she probably won't do musical theater but will do occasional stints on british tv (eg the prince's concert thingy) and she will record classic tunes. i am looking forward to that. a beautiful voice is a wondrous thing. physical beauty is skin deep.

ellen

[elleng]

18. IMO, 'pop' star will happen; musical theater won't.

We're READY for her first CD, and I think some pros are working on it now. Theater is an entirely different 'scene.'

She'll fix her hair and maybe wear some make-up when she's seen in public, but that need not be very often; we want to hear her. (and we don't care what simon + garfunkle or bob dylan look like.) She's got presence and personality, and she believes in herself. I'm betting on her.

[imdjh]

19. Here's to hope. I bought Chris Crocker's song on iTunes

[Hannah Bell]

29. i haven't noticed the last 40 years producing a better quality of "stars,"

just a more generic quality to them.

i tend to doubt your hypothesis.

[ContinentalOp]

39. No way could she have a career in musical theater.

You must be joking. She'll sell a bunch of records to old people though. Which is good because they're probably the only ones paying for music anymore.

[BrklynLiberal]

17. One point of view: Why does video of Susan Boyle move us?

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/04/the_faith_of_su.html

"Susan Boyle has reminded us of something we’ve forgotten for too long. Hypnotised by Madison Avenue and Hollywood and the culture of youth, we’ve forgotten that the things they offer to us as 'the norm' are ideals, and mostly fake ones. In embracing those fake ideals (how much money was spent last year in cosmetic surgeries and teeth-whitening?) we’ve forgotten that beyond all of those superficialities, we each have within us something of much greater value than perky breasts and unlined skin: the divine spark, the God-kiss, that lives in each and every one of us - no exceptions."

[imdjh]

20. Because we all know that snotty bitch with the dark hair in the audience, we went to school with her

[BrklynLiberal]

24. LOL :D

[susanna]

25. Yes, I did! How did you know that?

:rofl:

[malaise]

31. She was described in one of the British papers

as Miss 'too much mascara' :rofl:

[GoesTo11]

41. I saw her

She turns all empathetic at the end. What a phony.

[Captain Hilts]

21. Amen. Sing it, BrklynLiberal. nt

[elleng]

22. Beautiful voice singing nice song

never heard before.

[pnwmom]

37. Yes. It is her indomitable spirit we're responding to.

She bared her soul to the world and we saw her triumph.

[Fumesucker]

23. I'm reminded of a comment by Billy Joel

He said once that the main thing which separated him from a lot of his "competition" in the rock 'n roll world was that he actually knew how to sing and play.

Let's face it, Billy Joel is not a conventional sex symbol, and yet he ended up married to Christie Brinkley, pretty close to the ultimate female sex symbol.. And probably deeply regrets that now. :)

[rosesaylavee]

27. I think she is fascinating on many levels.

I am grateful that I haven't seen or read too much of her detractors. I don't want this moment to end, this global realization that we can still be touched by an individual's art. Authentic and deeply satisfying. That's why it struck a global chord. It's real when so much that is fed us as entertainment widely misses the mark or has forgotten that it was supposed to be even aimed at a mark.

So. Write on and let's continue to enjoy Ms.Boyle and wait for more musical moments like the one offered to us so unexpectedly last weekend.

[starroute]

28. It isn't just looks -- it's all the dismissive assumptions

There are ever so many reasons that someone like Susan Boyle gets relegated to the "loser" category, and the way she looks is only one of them.

- She comes across as a bit "slow" -- and she acknowledges she does have learning disabilities.

- She's 47 and she isn't famous yet. There must be something wrong with her.

- She has a provincial accent and small-town mannerisms in a society that prizes slickness.

- She's sincere and hopeful in a society that runs on cynicism and falsity and sees sincerity as a vulnerability to be exploited.

In short, Susan Boyle is the sort of person whom the world at large considers to be walking around with a "kick me" sign on her back -- and the fact that she acts as though the sign she's really wearing says, "I'm somebody special but you never guessed it!" drives them crazy.

[all.of.me]

30. Do we have to poke our eyes out to be sure we're not judging on physical appearance?

The way society perceives beauty is sickening.

"...it has touched on an important aspect of our shallowness as a society."

I hope it was a wake-up call to the world - the judges on that show, the audience, the viewers at home. No one wanted to hear her sing, because she wasn't tall, blond and stylish. And did you see Simon roll his eyes when she said she was 47?! I could have barfed, but, man, did he have to eat crow! I loved it. I could watch it 100 times.

She does have a beautiful voice, and I'm glad she was discovered. I hope she has some good support around her to protect her in this transition, and I hope the world gets the message about discrimination. Do you think they will?

[BlooInBloo]

33. The only semi-relevance of it is that most people are somewhat closer to not-so pretty...

and so they all identify with Boyle (feverishly imagining that they themselves have her talent), and feel validated en masse.

Other than that, she's just a really, really good singer.

[Captain Hilts]

42. Voting for Obama gave people a sense of validation about racism. Should they not have voted for him?

[BlooInBloo]

46. Umm.... yah.

[L0oniX]

45. Ding Ding Ding ...congrats on making this the 30th hide thread of the day.

[tabasco]

48. It's a teevee show.

Not important to me.