It is such a simple premise: Men do not have the right to tell women

[CaliforniaPeggy]

what they can or cannot do.

But this simple premise runs counter to how men have treated women from time immemorial.

We are seen as property, chattel, breeding machines...

It has to stop, and even though we've made much progress, there is still much to be done.

The death of the 21 year old girl wearing a mini-skirt really triggered me...

My God. What does it take to make things right?

I am outraged on behalf of all exploited women.

[LaurenG]

1. Yes!!

Thank you - Men do not have the right to tell women what they can or cannot do. :applause: :woohoo:

[saltpoint]

Sometimes I consider that it didn't bother Lewis and Clark one iota to

depend on Sacajawea as a guide and translator, and to value and honor her as such.

If Lewis and Clark can value a woman as essential then it does seem that the rest of us can, too.

Purdue University, after decades of administrators running around with their sexist heads up their collective patoots, FINALLY got around to erecting a commemorative statue to legendary aviator Amelia Earhart.

Plenty of room still for improvement but we're making a few gains.

Recommended.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

7. Thank you! I agree completely...

[polichick]

2. Women keep most of the world's religions strong...

...sending their children to church, doing the congregation's grunt work, etc. ~ and yet most religions see them as second-class citizens.

imo women have to turn their backs on ALL organizations and individuals who treat us that way.

Women have far more power than we collectively use!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Education is very necessary, for women as well as men...

Your points are well taken.

So often, women do not realize that they are being treated as second-class citizens. They need to be brought into the light...

[polichick]

6. Or they don't want to see - imo there's no excuse for American women...

...to NOT see how some religious organizations diss them. imo it's crazy for women to attend Catholic churches or any others where they are not allowed to lead. It's as if they're begging to be treated badly. They even continue to send their precious children after the whole world knows how the church covered for pedophiles. Seems as if the priests could murder their children and women would continue to be the church's enablers.

Religion is one big area where women could make a huge impact overnight!

[Liberal_in_LA]

9. I know. I don't understand Baptist, Catholic, ultra ortho Jewish, muslim american women

How can you keep attending and putting money in the plate.

[polichick]

15. In the U.S. all they have to do is wake up one morning and say, "No more"...

How long would churches stay in business if all the mothers stopped attending and sending their children?

[Liberal_in_LA]

56. not long. And women could have had a woman president anytime they desired.

[patrice]

75. We don't need them. We can teach our children what is right and wrong ourselves.

We can bless our own marriages, babies, and our own dead. We can creat our own social environments within which our children can learn about society.

Shouldn't the group be created by individuals and not the other way around?

[polichick]

76. You bet! Though my husband was raised Catholic and I was raised Lutheran...

...we had dumped them both by the time we got married. I wrote naming ceremonies for kids, and when they became teenagers we took them out to a national forest and they did modified vision quests. We didn't have any problem teaching them right from wrong without religion. And, just so they'd be aware of the way others did it, we read things from many religious traditions and talked about what they had in common and how they differed. Also attended a variety of religious events, from a very right-wing Christmas Eve service, which was horrifying, to Native American pow wows, which we loved.

imo it takes more energy to do it your own way, and to find open-minded people to share with ~ but the kids don't get steeped in bullshit.

[patrice]

82. Except for punishment, it seems many (most?) parents have abdicated this responsibility.

I think it is because they don't actually know why right is right and why wrong is wrong and when young adults start coming into their reasoning powers, parents can't engage them in the reasoning process that results in moral decision making. They can't because they have oversimplified and abdicated that function for too long to people who make a living by making other people dependent upon them for moral validation (which is the opposite of morality if you think about it). They want the rewards of being "right" but are afraid of taking responsibility for being wrong.

Please accept my sincere Congratulations! to you and to your spouse for your insight into the Truth.

[polichick]

84. Thank- you kindly! :)

Maybe the recession will inspire people to slow down a bit and get back to some meaningful basics ~ but, you're right, it's probably easier to abdicate to those who set themselves up a moral leaders. (Abdicate is the perfect word for it!)

[Odin2005]

105. That is awesome!!!

especially the vision quest as an alternative to confirmation!

[polichick]

143. Thanks! I really recommend the vision quest - our guys look back at that as...

...something pretty cool.

[ejpoeta]

53. if you are raised to think that you are second to a man

you tend to believe it. When i was in MOPS (mothers of preschoolers) i was shocked at how many women there thought of themselves as second to their husbands. they kept talking about how men are closer to god and the head of the family and women are meant to take care of the kids. i tried to ignore that stuff, but eventually it proved too much for me. i cannot be part of that!! i refuse to be second to anyone!! and i'll be damned if i will allow anyone to try to make my daughter think that way either!! I tell them repeatedly that they can do anything they want in life as long as they work for it. and i intend to make sure they have the confidence to be their own persons. i hope that i am setting a good example, but sometimes i wonder. i am a stay at home mom, but that was my choice as i want to be there when they get off the bus and such. They see their father and myself as equals and he always treats me with respect and love. and i do the same with him. I also try to make sure my husband spends time with them because i feel that a strong father/daughter relationship will help them with their self esteem. i always tell him that if they don't get that love from him, they will go looking elsewhere to find it... and there are plenty of boys out there who would love to show them that love. but i digress. strong women!!! i sure am trying to raise them that way.

[Liberal_in_LA]

55. back in the 70s these same type of women trashed 'women's libbers' but them all

expected to get promotions at work, equal pay etc...And they definitely love their birth control. women like that ride on the backs of progressive women.

[raccoon]

130. And they're around today too--fundies, but med students or something similar.

Do those morans realize progressive women fought for their rights to do the things they're doing today?

[polichick]

60. Bravo - the way we raise our daughters and sons makes all the difference!

[Bill McBlueState]

131. seriously, it's called "mops"?

The name pretty much reveals how a lot of these women think of themselves.

I like what you say about the role of dads in raising strong daughters. My little girl just turned two and I'm trying my best to raise her as an independent thinker.

[JI7]

68. Catholics are often more liberal than the Catholic Church

there was a poll which showed Catholics were more likely to support gay rights, abortion rights and other issues than the general public.

but then again many of these Catholics probably don't attend church regularly and are more "cultural Catholics" than religious Catholics.

[polichick]

72. True - so why do Catholic women continue to subject themselves to a church...

...that sees them as second-class citizens??

[JI7]

73. i don't think the liberal ones do

it's probably the conservative ones who actually work for the church. the rest while considering themselves to be Catholic are not regularly active in their church.

[polichick]

74. Why associate themselves with the institution at all, and send their kids??

[JerseygirlCT]

85. Because the religious practice, and the liturgy, is quite beautiful

Because the religion often has deep cultural roots.

This is spoken as someone who has left the RCC - but for the Episcopal Church, where women are not treated as less-than, and I get to keep the traditions and liturgy!

[polichick]

87. Smart girl! :)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

102. Yep, I agree

The liturgy is beautiful. I don't go to Mass, but I wouldn't go to another denomination because it just wouldn't be the same. I don't believe most of the Church's teachings (just like most Catholics don't), but I still consider myself Catholic.

And, for heritage reasons, I wouldn't join an Episcopalian Church. I went to a service at one once, and it was pretty funny, because I was like, "It's just like a Catholic mass, except with a lesbian priest!"

[JerseygirlCT]

125. Well, I'm Irish-American, too

but that doesn't seem to bother me = not nearly as much as attending mass in the RCC, where I'm a second-class citizen, and the boys run the show. In fact, look in any pew in an Episcopal church these days, and you're likely to find at least one former RC.

And lol to the lesbian priest. Yup! Or married and the mother of several children, and eagerly awaiting her grandkids. I've loved that my sons have grown up with different ideas of what a priest is - or could be. And that the two biggest examples have been women.

[polichick]

146. Here's the part I don't understand:

You said, "I don't believe most of the Church's teachings (just like most Catholics don't), but I still consider myself Catholic."

Why support something you don't believe in?

My husband's Catholic cousin recently said to him about the church, "But what if they're right?" ~ talking about going to hell. Is that what keeps people Catholic in name only, even though they don't agree with the second-class woman thing, or the pedophile thing, or the anti-gay thing, or the anti-choice thing, and don't attend church?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

154. I just think for a lot of people, it's a cultural thing

That's how it is for me. I don't support "The Church" but most Catholics and priests I know are pretty damn cool, and far more liberal than the Church hierarchy.

[JerseygirlCT]

178. I can't answer for her, of course, but

those issues and those disagreements really don't constitute the heart of the belief, at all. For me, the treatment of women was just an insurmountable obstacle. But it was in the Catholic church that I got my education in social justice, for instance. There's much, much more to it than the hot-button issues.

And as I said elsewhere, the cultural ties are very, very strong. In a way, you never stop being Catholic, no matter how you practice. And Irish-Catholic is another and maybe even stronger tie. It's cultural and religious, and it's who you are.

I don't know many religious people, including my Catholic friends and family, who are practicing out of some fear of the great beyond. I certainly wasn't raised with that sort of "or else!" hanging over my head. Fire and brimstone wasn't the way of it at all.

Catholics (those practicing, anyway) tend to spend a great deal of time educating their children in church practice and meaning. It's something that by adulthood is pretty well entrenched. (Why am I one of the people in my Episcopal church not using the prayer book through the service? The responses of the mass are deeply ingrained. I really don't need it!)

And there are those, like those in Catholics for Choice, who feel called to stay and work for change from within. I wish them the best; I just couldn't be one of them.

[Patiod]

136. There's a lot of cultural pressure to stay, even nominally

When I became a Quaker, my Catholic friends acted hurt, even those who had problems with the church and were considering leaving as well. It's almost like "what, we're not good enough for you?"
Twice I was told "we were going to have to act as Godmother to our child, but now that you're not Catholic, you can't

My S.O.'s mother was horrified, even though she has a very jaundiced view of the church which has come from seeing the inside workings as a church secretary for years. She has a LOT of distain for the church and its priests, but no one else can say a bad word about it - a lot like family, I guess.

[JerseygirlCT]

179. As I read your post

I was thinking "a lot like family", too. Within, scream and curse all you like - have an outsider do the same, and everyone goes shoulder to shoulder against them, lol.

Fortunately, I had none of that. My parents were just fine with my choice. My mom, especially, was just happy that I'd found a new church home. I'm not a universalist by accident - I learned that at my very devout Catholic mother's knee. Actually, my siblings who remain at least officially RC are less active than I by a long shot in their churches. It's more a baptism, communion and weddings sort of deal for them for the most part.

[Control-Z]

107. At the March for Women's Lives, DC, 2004,

some of my favorite people that I met along the way were the Catholics for Choice.

[JerseygirlCT]

126. An excellent group

Sometimes I wish I'd had the stomach to stay and fight. But pissed off is no way to attend mass!

[Control-Z]

144. I agree

'But pissed off is no way to attend mass!'

I have no religious beliefs, but respect those who have to deal with the conflicts of their religion and intelligent thought.

[Patiod]

134. It's one of the reasons I left the catholic church

Even when i was a kid, I never understood the idea that nuns were crammed in a tiny little house and took care of it themselves, but the priest got the big rectory with a housekeeper. And I never understood why alterboys, but not altergirls (well, now I know why)

[polichick]

141. You were smart to question it so young...

I thought it was pretty telling when the church kicked nuns out of their homes so they could sell convent buildings in order to raise legal fees for the pedophile priests ~ and Cover-up Cardinal Law from Boston got a new job in Rome.

[Patiod]

147. My MIL got fired to save money, but the priests redecorated

For real - she was fired because her health insurance was too expensive, but the priests got a huge chunk of money to re-decorate the rectory, which only they every saw.

They figured (correctly) that she would continue to do some of what she had been doing, only on a volunteer basis. They did not figure that the firing would send her into a severe depressive spiral. But hey, the priests got to redecorate!

[polichick]

151. That's terrible! I think it would be wonderful if Catholic women all over the world...

...said "Enough!" and took things into their own hands.

[JerseygirlCT]

180. We had altar girls growing up

Then the bishop decided that wasn't any good. But my pastor kept right on with it. (The bishop really didn't like the guy - could you guess?)

[backtoblue]

155. I was married to a man whose preacher

called me a "jezebel" because I did not succumb to my husband's desires. WTF??? That's like the worst thing a "Christian" person can call a woman. Needless to say the marriage ended within one year. I was so pissed off and felt like this religious "gang" of men were encouraging each other to dominate their wives.

[polichick]

161. Wow, I'm glad you thought for yourself and got away from that!!!

[backtoblue]

163. Me, too

I will do some serious religious research before I even think of remarrying! It's hard to find many liberals where I live...:shrug:

I always said I'd try everything before I turned 30....Looks like I've almost lived up to that promise!!!

[polichick]

169. Research is good! :) - At least you can check that experience off your list!

[backtoblue]

182. I'm thinking that by the time I'm 40

I just might have things figured out. Then again, I thought that about 30!!:D

[Withywindle]

49. Absolutely true.

But there's a trap I see some people on DU falling into, which to blame religion completely for all instances of sexism or homophobia, and to think that if there were no religion, these problems would go away.

I really don't think that's completely true. I think misogyny and homophobia are deep-seated superstitions that predate any religion that exists today. While some practitioners of "honor killings" and female genital mutilation will claim (falsely) that these practices are part of Islam, the truth is, these "traditions" predate Muhammad's birth by thousands of years. I think a lot of woman-haters and queer-haters manipulate their religion to justify their hate, not the other way around. The hate comes first. It's not hard to find atheists who share these prejudices, though they might "justify" them differently.

[polichick]

61. Interesting - a chicken or egg thing...

It's certainly true that sociopaths are drawn to positions where they are put on pedestals and can manipulate a lot of people ~ churches and politics both fit the bill!

[Withywindle]

116. They sure are.

Look at the denominations of Christianity that make hating GLBT people some kind of central tenet of their faith. It's not. Jesus didn't say WORD ONE about it, as far the gospels are concerned! And then look at the affirming, accepting denominations of Christianity. Are they practicing the same religion, even? Why the wide discrepancy? Some people simply feel a need to hate, and an attraction to a punitive, authoritarian code that tolerates no divergence from the patriarchal rules. And others don't need that at all to feel spiritually connected, in fact they find it repellent.

[Bill McBlueState]

133. it's true that many of these attitudes predate today's religions

But today's religions provide a very convenient mechanism to keep these attitudes alive. Sure, there are misogynistic atheists, but they probably don't go to a weekly meeting with other misogynists where a self-appointed servant of "god" encourages their misogyny.

[Odin2005]

106. The problem is that for a lot of people it's almost impossible to change their worldviews as adults.

An interesting revelation I have had from cognitive behavior therapy for anxiety and depression is how much people can delude themselves with their own thoughts.

[ArtVandelay]

121. I agree. We are the ones who make new bodies for more people,

after all. So Fuck the men who can't handle the fact that we have abilities they don't possess. That is the whole problem, where it all originated from. Some men cant handle that women can make babies (or abort) and the men have no control over it.

[polichick]

148. Think how different things would be if the Gospel of Mary (said to be Jesus' wife)...

...and others of the 30+ gospels written had been included in the Bible by the early church, along with Matthew, Mark, Luke & John!

You're right, the power of women must have been quite a threat.

[redqueen]

173. What message does that send to our daughters?

If we, as their mothers, tell them to submit themselves to something that would have them believe they are less-than?

I don't understand why this is still so common. It's heartbreaking.

[chimpyisstillsatan]

4. you cannot ignore me

there.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. And your meaning is?

[chimpyisstillsatan]

110. just humor.

by virtue of reading my post she was paying attention. Feh, it seems schucklicious at the time.

[RedCappedBandit]

63. Actually, it's just one mouse click away.

[NanceGreggs]

8. It is a simple premise ...

... which begs the question: why are some people so confused by it?


:kick: & R!

[no_hypocrisy]

10. Some men just don't get it.

I'm a mature adult and my father is insisting that not only should I consult an endocrinologist (glands) but he alone should select that specialist. I deferred nicely only to be berated with "Why should you choose?" I answered, "It's my body." His response was "What does that have anything to do with it?"


While my father is a retired physician and knows stuff I don't, I still have the last word on my own medical treatment unless I'm incapacitated and have a Medical Directive or Medical Power of Attorney.

By the way, this isn't an innocuous disagreement. This is about power.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

14. Power is exactly the point.

We are intelligent thinkers too, and there's no reason we should not be heard.

Except they want to keep the power...

[patrice]

11. Women need to be able to make lives on their own, so they don't need the men around them.

This will be better for women AND men and what is better for people will reduce psychosis, not eliminate it mind you, just make it less probable.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

17. I don't want a world without men...

But we deserve to share it. To share in the decision-making, the larger questions, and the day-to-day things too.

I love having my husband around me because we complement each other...

But basically, I agree with you.

[patrice]

23. I didn't say "without". I Love Men. Everyone needs to be Free, so they can learn how to Love.

Need is not Love. It IS slavery and both the slave and the master know it; they are Slaves to one another.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

31. Thanks for clarifying! (nt)

[ensho]

145. yes all women need a 'room of their own'. so to speak

don't fall into lust and give up your 'room' to move in with the object of lust.

at least, don't give up your 'room' until the lust is over and reality returns. sometimes it takes a yr. or so. other times a few months.

[kdmorris]

19. Are you seriously advocating

keeping men and women separate? For their whole lives?

I don't think that helps anyone at all.

[patrice]

35. What makes you think they'd choose to stay separate. I am proposing that we remove Need from the

equation, so people can be with one another because they WANT to be, because it is good for them. This will help people to learn how to grow without the additional burden of dependents that they are actually incapable of dealing with functionally and which warp their development, so that they never face and overcome their problems, because they always have a dodge that goes something like "It's okay for me to ___________________, because I have to sacrifice so much for ____________ and ___________."

It should be possible for all persons to provide for themselves and their children, without enslaving one another. And since women are the ones who bear the children, we should be especially certain that they have opportunities to earn what they need.

[kdmorris]

44. Ah, I see

Sorry, it seemed from your first post that you thought we should separate men and women, or remove men altogether.

Thanks for clarifying!

[patrice]

48. Welcome. I am glad we are having this discussion. Thank you.

[alarimer]

108. Yes, it is unhealthy to need someone too much.

If my dad died, I am not sure what would happen to my mom. She is so dependent on him.

[patrice]

127. I worry about my son who has had lay-off after lay-off for most of his adult life.

He is employed now in one of the first jobs he has had a chance to demonstrate what he can do (technology), so he identifies with the job and actually cares about, but he is listening to talk about layoffs AGAIN.

We have developed a relationship in which I guide him emotionally and psychologically to believe that continuing to try is worth the effort. He and his wife get pretty low, neither one of them know quite how to generate the sort of cognitive motivators that I create for them. They don't believe in religion. I worry what will happen to them when/after "my time" comes.

[Lorien]

164. I don't need men around at all; never have and never will

My dad took off with another woman when I was seven and my mother never remarried. She learned how to do everything around the house and yard herself, and passed her knowledge on to her two daughters. My sister and I never married and never intend to. I'm physically attracted to men and have had "friends with benefits"; but from everything I've seen 98% of men out there truly don't respect us as human beings or see us as in any way as equals, so why subject ourselves to their bullying and abuse? We are not their brood mares, whores, maids and cooks, despite what they believe. It would be wonderful if I could still believe in the fairy tale that real love and respect can exist between men and women, but I'm sadly forced to accept the fact that it's always been a one way street for the vast majority of couples. :-(

[leftstreet]

12. K&R

[InvisibleTouch]

13. I remember being utterly baffled by a friend of mine...

...who told me her husband didn't allow her to buy this or that, and she had to ask his permission to keep it when I gave her a plant as a gift. Who the hell was he to have the right to allow or disallow anything for a grown woman - and why did she put up with it? In my home, he'd have been out the door so fast his head would spin. And then I'd add a second plant. Sounds like far better company to me.

[a la izquierda]

39. You and me both.

I see my sisters-in-law who basically married overlords. They will say to my husband, I can't believe you let her (me) do that. His answer: "I don't "let" her do anything; she's an adult, she can do what she wants. If she wants my advice, she'll ask. If I prevent her from doing anything, I'm divorced." How he is related to his brothers is beyond my comprehension.
And he's right. My mom stayed with my dad because she had no education...even though he cheated constantly. Once my youngest sibling was in school full time, he was out of there. I don't need anyone to tell me what to do. Except maybe my mom, sometimes :)

[IntravenousDemilo]

152. Sounds like your husband should have a little talk with his brothers. n/m

[a la izquierda]

170. Whew, that'll never happen.

He's the youngest, his two brothers are former military (Marines, Air Force). He's the only one who didn't go. They have a mentality that just doesn't work in my husband's mind. He turned out very, very differently. Liberal, laid-back, very smart (despite no college). He thinks his brothers are just the way they are, and he's entirely too relaxed to try and change their minds.
I love his family, but the patriarchy there is bizarre. I never had that experience, so I'm very resistant to it (and rightly so). My dad wouldn't, in a million years, ever tell me what to do.

BTW, I love your name...

[IntravenousDemilo]

175. I know exactly what you mean.

I'm the youngest in my family. Try to tell my four big brothers anything? Not on your life! They're all at least 11 years older and even though I'm 50, they always pull rank. Still, it might be at least interesting if your husband brought it up somehow, just to find out what exactly they'd say. He could also remind them that there are women in the Marines and the Air Force who have served very ably, and if your sisters-in-law had been in the military themselves and outranked their husbands, no way would the husbands behave as they do.

BTW, thanks. Spinal Tap fan here. And I've always liked the word "izquierda". It's not often you find a "z" and a "q" right next to each other. I'll bet Spanish Scrabble has all different values assigned to the letters. It's also cool because while the Spanish adopted a Basque word for "left", they didn't do so for "right", and I'm wondering how that happened.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

95. That attitude bugged me when I was a teenager in the 1960s

and my classmates would say things like, "I'd like to change my hairstyle, but (Boyfriend) won't let me," or "My family's going to Europe this summer, but (Boyfriend) says I can't go."

What really creeped me out was that they seemed PROUD of being under their boyfriends' thumbs.

I think that's one reason I'm single. I never found a man who really believed in equality. They'd say they did, and then we'd come to a point where they tried to boss me in ways they had no right to. Or I'd inadvertently do something that trampled their pwecious wittle male ego.

[Odin2005]

109. I'm 23 and that kind of BS is still found among my peers.

I also think it's creepy and I'm a guy.

[InvisibleTouch]

118. Sounds like an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for their own lives.

"Boyfriend won't 'let' me" could also be interpreted as "I don't really want to, but don't want to say so."

In relationships like this, I do have to give equal blame to both parties - the men for being controlling jerks, and the women for putting up with it.

[raccoon]

132. Ditto. I never liked the idea of changing my last name, even in the 1970's. nt

[Lorien]

166. There are millions like her husband out there. That's about all you find

down here in the South, which is why most of my female friends here are single!

[IntravenousDemilo]

16. And vice-versa, of course. n/m

[CaliforniaPeggy]

26. Of course.

But really, how often does that happen?

Not nearly as often.

[IntravenousDemilo]

34. I wish you'd posted a link about the 21-year-old girl, because I don't know what story you were

alluding to.

But as to your question of how often that happens, well, women tell men what to do ALL THE TIME -- ask anyone in a relationship.

Mind you, this is not necessarily a bad thing, since women are much more emotionally, temperamentally, and intellectually suited to running things than men ever were. Everyone would be a hell of a lot safer, happier, and calmer if women just took over.

[liquid diamond]

45. I did a google search and found this

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25331142-12377,00.html

It happened in Russia. The father thought her mini-skirt was a blatant offense to their culture. They have a long way to go as far as treating women as equals.

[FreakinDJ]

18. RIGHT - All Sex with Men is Rape

Love the logic in that arguement, Radical Feminism "Hopefully" has no place in the Democratic Party

Children - can we say "Dysfunctional"

[CaliforniaPeggy]

21. I'm not going there.

All sex is NOT rape. I'm just saying that men need to share the responsibilities of the world with us. And they need to not be always telling us what we should or should not do, or be.

I am not a radical feminist. And I have no idea what gave you that idea.

We are equal beings with men. Period. And we deserve to be treated as such.

[Lerkfish]

24. I'm a man, and I didn't read that in the OP

I think you're overreacting a bit.

[Hello_Kitty]

27. He must think sex is something men 'do' to women. eom

[Hello_Kitty]

25. Who said that?

And if you say "Andrea Dworkin" I will know you are an ignoramus.

Oh wait, I already do.

[FreakinDJ]

83. You mean these quotes

"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."

quoted in Professing Feminism:
Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies - Catherine MacKinnon

--------------------------------

"My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don't even need to shrug. I simply don't care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don't matter."

The Woman's Room - Marilyn French

-------------------------------

"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership."

- Andrea Dworkin

---------------------------------

"All men are rapists and that's all they are."

Author; - Marilyn French

--------------------------------

"The nuclear family must be destroyed, and people must find better ways of living together.... Whatever its ultimate meaning, the breakup of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.... No woman should have to deny herself any opportunities because of her special responsibilities to her children...."

"Functions of the Family," WOMEN: A Journal of Liberation, Fall, 1969 - Linda Gordon

--------------------------------

[Hello_Kitty]

93. I very seriously doubt you have read any of those women's writings extensively

[FreakinDJ]

101. Oh - I don't think you want to go down that road

[Hello_Kitty]

104. Oh, I don't think you've read them.

And you can pretend to be anything you want on the Internets.

[Lerkfish]

138. you, my friend, have serious baggage.

nothing in the OP referred to those quotes.

the fact that you have them at the ready, is just a bit sad on your part.

[ensho]

149. I'll say Andrea Dworkin and perhaps you are the ignoramus

nt

[Hello_Kitty]

162. Nope. She didn't. eom

[Donnachaidh]

28. were EXACTLY is rape mentioned in the OP?

Seems you should check into your own personal peccadilloes about women before you come in blasting and putting words in other people's posts. Too bad radical feminism is so frightening dude. :eyes:

[Hello_Kitty]

30. I don't even get where the 'radical feminism' is.

Is it 'radical' to believe that women aren't chattel and men shouldn't be entitled to order them around and control their lives?

Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.

[Donnachaidh]

70. it's *radical* because women have the audacity to call men on their shit

And this poster obviously needs to see a manicurist to have them buff out the scrapemarks on his knuckles. It happens when these types walk around on them too much.

[JerseygirlCT]

86. For some, that's quite true

I've been told I'm a radical feminist because I refused to change my last name when I married. So weird!

Not that I minded being called that, mind you!

[Scout]

36. oh stop being hysterical

saying women are perfectly capable of making their own choices and need to be taught to have the confidence to do so is not saying all sex with men is rape.

women can live their lives and make their own choices with or without involving men in those choices, unless the woman chooses to do so. they don't HAVE to have men to guide them. (unless they want to remain eternal children who always have to ask daddy what to do.)

stop trying to derail the conversation into a temper tantrum.

[TexasObserver]

37. Nothing in the OP suggested such an absurd thing.

And her comments are hardly evidence of "Radical Feminism." Why you think those two words require capitalization is a mystery. Frankly, I've never heard ANYONE to the left of Rush Limbaugh use such a term, and it is used only by persons for whom the entire concept of feminism is "radical."

Your comments are not fact based or rational.

[AwakeAtLast]

41. Where does death=rape?

You need to read the OP again.

Even if the OP mentioned anything about rape, how would they then need to be labeled as "Dysfunctional"?

Can you say "self-righteous"?

[LaurenG]

43. Dude - where'd you go with that?

"Men do not have the right to tell women what to do" has what to do with rape?

[Odin2005]

51. I posted similar stupid rants about "Femi-Nazis" here, then my friend was raped.

I finally realize what those people were talking about. Every time I realize I am staring at an attractive woman I feel like the fucking rapist...

[yewberry]

117. I've really got to say something to you.

We've not often agreed here on DU. I think we come from very different kinds of experiences.

However, I'd like to say that I've really been moved to see the shift in how you approach and think about this topic. I'm deeply, deeply sorry for your friend, and that you've had to be part of such a horrible thing. Assault changes us, and it can strip us of our sense of self, at least for a time, and leave us with the hollow, awful perception that we really are only a thing to be used. It can completely fuck with your head.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry you had to gain new insight in such a terrible way.

[Odin2005]

119. Thank you for the understanding.

:hug:

[comrade snarky]

62. Damn...

Are you ever projecting.
I cant figure out where the hell this came from. Your issues are hanging out all over the place.

The OP is a call for equality and it's completely right.

[Lex]

71. "You" "are" "pure" "genius"

:eyes:

[Skittles]

77. LOL

strange how the idea of equality with women threatens some men so badly they retort with garbage like this :thumbsdown:

[Hello_Kitty]

78. BTW I did a search on your name

The figure you cited last month of "41% of rape accusations" being false is bullshit.

[FreakinDJ]

89. You would have to take that up with the Police and the Complaintent

and of course I'm sure you have some form of links to substanciate your claims

ABSTRACT:

With the cooperation of the police agency of a small metropolitan community, 45 consecutive, disposed, false rape allegations covering a 9 year period were studied. False rape allegations constitute 41% of the total forcible rape cases (109) reported during this period. These false allegations appear to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, seeking revenge, and obtaining sympathy and attention. False rape allegations are not the consequence of a gender-linked aberration, as frequently claimed, but reflect impulsive and desperate efforts to cope with personal and social stress situations.

METHODS

This investigation is essentially a case study of one police agency in a small metropolitan area (population 70,000) in the Midwestern United States. This city was targeted for study because it offered an almost model laboratory for studying false rape allegations. First, its police agency is not inundated with serious felony cases and, therefore, has the freedom and the motivation to record and thoroughly pursue all rape complaints. In fact, agency policy forbids police officers to use their discretion in deciding whether to officially acknowledge a rape complaint, regardless how suspect that complaint may be. Second, the declaration of a false allegation follows a highly institutionalized procedure. The investigation of all rape complaints always involves a serious offer to polygraph the complainants and the suspects. Additionally, for a declaration of false charge to be made, the complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. She is the sole agent who can say that the rape charge is false. The police department will not declare a rape charge as false when the complainant, for whatever reason, fails to pursue the charge or cooperate on the case, regardless how much doubt the police may have regarding the validity of the charge.

In short, these cases are declared false only because the complainant admitted they are false. Furthermore, only one person is then empowered to enter into the records a formal declaration that the charge is false, the officer in charge of records. Last, it should be noted that this department does not confuse reported rape attempts with completed rapes. Thus, the rape complainants referred to in this paper are for completed forcible rapes only. The foregoing leaves us with a certain confidence that cases declared false by this police agency are indeed a reasonable- if not a minimal reflection of false rape allegations made to this agency, especially when one considers that a finding of false allegation is totally dependent upon the recantation of the rape charge.

http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaFalse.html

Don't hate the Player - Hate the Game

[Hello_Kitty]

91. I KNEW that was the study you got it from.

It's a HORRIBLE study. It's a joke. The researcher refuses to disclose what city he used, so no one can verify his findings. Also, he didn't interview any of the alleged victims to get their side of the story, nor did he make any attempt to independently validate the police reports. And apparently, the women who recanted were told they'd be charged with they’d be charged with filing false reports, though the study doesn't indicate what the results, if any, of those charges were. IOW, it should be completely discredited, but there's no telling that to misogynists who want to use it to perpetuate lies about rape.

Fail.

[FreakinDJ]

100. Much more credible then the 2% figure

Which smacks of the "Urban Legend" hype - tell the lie often enough and people will believe it

"Two percent of all reports are false."

Several years ago, I tried to track down the origin of this much-cited stat. The first instance I found of the figure was in Susan Brownmiller's book on sexual assault entitled "Against Our Will" (1975). Brownmiller claimed that false accusations in New York City had dropped to 2 percent after police departments began using policewomen to interview alleged victims.

Elsewhere, the two percent figure appears without citation or with only a vague attribution to "FBI" sources. Although the figure shows up in legislation such as the Violence Against Women Act, legal scholar Michelle Anderson of Villanova University Law School reported in 2004, "no study has ever been published which sets forth an evidentiary basis for the two percent false rape complaint thesis."

In short, there is no reason to credit that figure.

"Forty-one percent of all reports are false."

This claim comes from a study conducted by Eugene J. Kanin of Purdue University. Kanin examined 109 rape complaints registered in a Midwestern city from 1978 to 1987.

Of these, 45 were ultimately classified by the police as "false." Also based on police records, Kanin determined that 50 percent of the rapes reported at two major universities were "false."

Although Kanin offers solid research, I would need to see more studies with different populations before accepting the figure of 50 percent as prevalent; to me, the figure seems high.

But even a skeptic like me must credit a DNA exclusion rate of 20 percent that remained constant over several years when conducted by FBI labs. This is especially true when 20 percent more were found to be questionable.

False accusations are not rare. They are common.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html

But thanks for playing Rumor Monger

[Hello_Kitty]

103. Thanks for playing Getting Pwned For Pushing Misogynist Crap 'Research'

Why, I believe you are the winner! :applause:

[FreakinDJ]

111. You and your ilk certainly have me "Out-Gunned" on the Hate Speech

Women have their faults / men have only two: / everything they say / everything they do."
Popular Feminist Graffiti -
"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist"
Amazon Odyssey (p. 86) - Ti-Grace Atkinson
------------------------

"(Rape) is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear"
Against Our Will p.6. - Susan Brownmiller
------------------------
"We are taught, encouraged, moulded by and lulled into accepting a range of false notions about the family. As a source of some of our most profound experiences, it continues to be such an integral part of our emotional lives that it appears beyond criticism. Yet hiding from the truth of family life leaves women and children vulnerable."
- Canadian Panel on Violence Against Women
"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience."
Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students - Catherine Comin

--------------------------

"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness...can be trained to do most things."
SCUM (Society For Cutting Up Men.) - Jilly Cooper

-------------------------

" How will the family unit be destroyed? ...he demand alone will throw the whole ideology of the family into question, so that women can begin establishing a community of work with each other and we can fight collectively. Women will feel freer to leave their husbands and become economically independent, either through a job or welfare."
In "Female Liberation" - Roxanne Dunbarr
----------------------------

"Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it "Her". Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination."
Pornography: Men Possessing Women - Andrea Dworkin

---------------------------

"The traditional flowers of courtship are the traditional flowers of the grave, delivered to the victim before the kill. The cadaver is dressed up and made up and laid down and ritually violated and consecrated to an eternity of being used."
- Andrea Dworkin

---------------------------

"Men renounce whatever they have in common with women so as to experience no commonality with women; and what is left...is one piece of flesh a few inches long, the penis. The penis is the man; the man is human; the penis signifies humanity."
- Andrea Dworkin

---------------------------

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig."
Ice And Fire - Andrea Dworkin

----------------------------

"On the Left, on the Right, in the Middle; Authors, statesmen, thieves; so-called humanists and self-declared fascists; the adventurous and the contemplative, in every realm of male expression and action, violence is experienced and articulated as love and freedom."
Pornography: Men Possessing Women - Andrea Dworkin
"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies."
- Andrea Dworkin

----------------------------
"The cultural institutions which embody and enforce those interlocked aberrations - for instance, law, art, religion, nation-states, the family, tribe, or commune based on father-right - these institutions are real and they must be destroyed."
- Andrea Dworkin

-----------------------------
"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership."
- Andrea Dworkin

------------------------------

"Ninety-five percent of women's experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive... women didn't go to Vietnam and blow things up. They are not Rambo."
in The New York Times Magazine - Jodie Foster

------------------------------
"I was, in reality, bred by my parents as my father's concubine...What we take for granted as the stability of family life may well depend on the sexual slavery of our children. What's more, this is a cynical arrangement our institutions have colluded to conceal."
- Sylvia Fraser

-----------------------------

"My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don't even need to shrug. I simply don't care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don't matter."
The Woman's Room - Marilyn French

------------------------------

"All patriarchists exalt the home and family as sacred, demanding it remain inviolate from prying eyes. Men want privacy for their violations of women... All women learn in childhood that women as a sex are men's prey."
The Woman's Room - Marilyn French

-------------------------------

"All men are rapists and that's all they are."
Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.) - Marilyn French

----------------------------

"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE."
(Her emphasis) - Marilyn French

--------------------------

"The media treat male assaults on women like rape, beating, and murder of wives and female lovers, or male incest with children, as individual aberrations...obscuring the fact that all male violence toward women is part of a concerted campaign."
- Marilyn French

----------------------------

"The nuclear family must be destroyed, and people must find better ways of living together.... Whatever its ultimate meaning, the breakup of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.... No woman should have to deny herself any opportunities because of her special responsibilities to her children...."
"Functions of the Family," WOMEN: A Journal of Liberation, Fall, 1969 - Linda Gordon

--------------------------

"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release."
- Germaine Greer

-------------------------

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference."
Rape: The All-American Crime - Susan Griffin

------------------------

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression..."
- Sheila Jeffrys

-------------------------
"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it."
Former Congresswoman - Barbara Jordan

-----------------------

Catharine MacKinnon (...) maintains that "the private is a sphere of battery, marital rape and women's exploited labor." In this way, privacy and family are reduced to nothing more than aspects of the master plan, which is male domination. Democratic freedoms and the need to keep the state's nose out of our personal affairs are rendered meaningless. The real reason our society cherishes privacy is because men have invented it as an excuse to conceal their criminality. If people still insist that the traditional family is about love and mutual aid -- ideals which, admittedly, are sometimes betrayed -- they're "hiding from the truth." The family isn't a place where battery and marital rape sometimes happen but where little else apparently does. Sick men don't simply molest their daughters, they operate in league with their wives to "breed" them for that purpose.
The Princess at the Window; (in a critical explication of the Catharine MacKinnon, Gloria Steinhem et al tenets of misandric belief.) - Donna Laframboise

-----------------------

"There are no boundaries between affectionate sex and slavery in (the male) world. Distinctions between pleasure and danger are academic; the dirty-laundrylist of 'sex acts'...includes rape, foot binding, fellatio, intercourse, auto eroticism, incest, anal intercourse, use and production of pornography, cunnilingus, sexual harassment, and murder."
summarizing comment on the WAS document,
(A southern Women's Writing Collective: Women Against Sex.) - J.Levine

------------------------

"Man-hating is everywhere, but everywhere it is twisted and transformed, disguised, tranquilized, and qualified. It coexists, never peacefully, with the love, desire, respect, and need women also feel for men. Always man-hating is shadowed by its milder, more diplomatic and doubtful twin, ambivalence."
- Judith Levine

------------------------

"Men's sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can 'reach WITHIN women to fuck/construct us from the inside out.' Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women's own. A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, 'even if she does not feel forced.'"
(explicating comment profiling prevailing misandry.) - Judith Levine

------------------------

"I feel what they feel: man-hating, that volatile admixture of pity, contempt, disgust, envy, alienation, fear, and rage at men. It is hatred not only for the anonymous man who makes sucking noises on the street, not only for the rapist or the judge who acquits him, but for what the Greeks called philo-aphilos, 'hate in love,' for the men women share their lives with -- husbands, lovers, friends, fathers, brothers, sons, coworkers."
My Enemy, My Love - Judith Levine

--------------------------

"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs."
(Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.) - Catherine MacKinnon

---------------------------

"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."
quoted in Professing Feminism:
Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies - Catherine MacKinnon

---------------------------
"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman."
- Catherine MacKinnon

----------------------------
"We can't destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage."
From Sisterhood Is Powerful, (ed), 1970, p. 537 - Robin Morgan

---------------------------
"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."
Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan

---------------------------
"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire."
Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan

--------------------------
"And let's put one lie to rest for all time: the lie that men are oppressed, too, by sexism -- the lie that there can be such a thing as 'men's liberation groups.' Oppression is something that one group of people commits against another group, specifically because of a 'threatening' characteristic shared by the latter group -- skin, color, sex or age, etc. The oppressors are indeed FUCKED UP by being masters, but those masters are not OPPRESSED. Any master has the alternative of divesting himself of sexism or racism -- the oppressed have no alternative -- for they have no power but to fight. In the long run, Women's Liberation will of course free men -- but in the short run it's going to cost men a lot of privilege, which no one gives up willingly or easily. Sexism is NOT the fault of women -- kill your fathers, not your mothers"
Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan

---------------------------

"We live, I am trying to say, in an epidemic of male violence against women."
- Katha Pollitt

---------------------------
"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."
SCUM Manifesto (Society for Cutting Up Men.) - Valerie Solana

---------------------------
"'To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo."
Scum Manifesto - Valerie Solanas

---------------------------
"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men..."
One Woman, One Vote, Wheeler, p. 58 - Elizabeth Stanton

---------------------------
"All men are good for is fucking, and running over with a truck"
Statement made by A University of Maine Feminist Administrator, quoted by Richard Dinsmore, who brought a successful civil suit against the University in the amount of $600,000. - Unknown

[yewberry]

113. Is this some kind of a sick joke?

A collection of anti-male quotes is somehow equal to millenia of oppression?

If you'd like, it would be easy to find far more vicious quotes about women from men. Or, we could let actions speak for themselves: is our long history of male abuse, rape, suppression, and persecution against women not enough for you?

[Hello_Kitty]

114. Hell, all the mainstream religions have denigration of women enshrined in their dogma.

That alone has had more tangible affect on women than the sum total of every mean or critical thing every women has said about men throughout human history. It continues to this day.

[Odin2005]

120. He's definitely being an ass, that's for sure. n/t.

[Hello_Kitty]

115. You are left with non-sequiturs at this point. eom

[Lerkfish]

139. man, why are you even here? it feels like your posts should have the word

"ditto" after everyone.


at any rate, your views are beyond abhorrent -- I doubt that you are aware of anyone you know who has been raped. There might be some that have been raped, but you would never hear about it, because no one talks to morons about serious issues.

[Dappleganger]

137. Thank you for exposing BS studies.

A breath of fresh air.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

81. where did you get that from the OP?

[dogday]

90. All unwanted sex with men is rape...

You obviously cannot distinguish between the two...

I will use your own words here------Children - can we say "Dysfunctional"

[Lerkfish]

140. well, I would shorten that to "all unwanted sex is rape"

but otherwise, right on.

[dogday]

160. thanks for that correction,

you are absolutely right...

:hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

96. If any woman ever told you that, she may have had a good reason

:evilgrin"

[Jamastiene]

98. Remind me to never be in a room alone with you.

You have a very fucked up view of what is and is not rape. :thumbsdown:

[Odin2005]

112. It's people having fucked up views like his that caused my friend to be raped.

Sick creeps deserve a swift kick in the nuts.

[Jamastiene]

123. Yes, they do need a swift kick in the nuts and then some.

They need a MAJOR attitude adjustment.

[whopis01]

128. No, but all murder is murder

and when something as insignificant as the particular clothes a woman chooses to wear becomes the deciding factor in whether or not she lives or dies, it is hard to view it as anything but oppression.

Then throw in the fact that the arrangements for her murder were made by her father - someone who should value her more than practically anyone else in the world - it becomes obvious that very little value is placed on her existence.

[hfojvt]

20. I was gonna post a sarcastic reply

but my girlfriend told me I'd better not. Especially since I have not taken out the garbage or cut the grass.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/800778/woman-killed-over-mini-skirt-police

Parents generally tell their children what to do. Usually not past a certain age though, although I think they still try, in my experience. Usually they won't have you killed for not following their requests/demands. That's seriously bizzare.

[Lerkfish]

22. i remember running into a woman that was bright, bubbly and witty at a furniture store

we bought a couple of pieces from her, and my wife and I got along great with her. Then, she invited us over for dinner, where her husband dominated everything, belittled everything she tried to say and you could just see her completely collapsing into herself out of an old habit.

What a complete waste of a wonderful human being, just because her husband was a complete asshole that had to control his wife until there was no life in her.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

29. This is exactly what I'm talking about...

But on a grand, historical, multi-cultural scale.

How sad for her...

[iris27]

124. My dad and stepmom are like this; I HATE IT.

She just recently has finally had the guts to leave him, but is now having to endure the wrath of the scorned asshole...same wrath he unleashed against my mom when they split, but my mom is a far stronger, more stubborn woman. I love my stepmom, but she has seriously internalized that "need to please"/doormat sort of personality. I keep trying to remind her, every time he calls screaming and threatening, that she is better off away from that toxic atmosphere. And every time, I get angrier that the asshole driving her pain, tears, and insecurities is my own father.

[Reterr]

32. I agree but with the caveat that no religious nut (or any other kinda nut)

should be able to tell women (or men) what to do.

It is amazing how some women too cling to the chains that bind them. Going by my personal experience here in the south, I would almost be tempted to say that there are a lot more of these self-righteous, pro-life women than even men. Not really, I am sure...
It is probably 50-50, but God some of these women make me sick.

The hypocrisy is amazing too...It never applies to them. Just all those loose, liberal women out there who use abortion as birth-control or something.
Male or female, I feel like telling these loons to take a check.

There is definitely an asymmetry between the genders when it comes to a lot of the psychotic stuff, but I can't ignore the number of nutty, religious women that promote this type of nonsense.

[IntravenousDemilo]

40. I feel the same amazement towards African Americans clinging to the church that helped enslave them.

Western religion was laid on the backs slaves along with stripes from the slavers' whips, as a means of keeping them down and pacifying them. How odd, then, that such a preponderance of black people in the US (and elsewhere) steadfastly suck up to the white christian god in whose name they were oppressed.

[Lex]

92. You are so right and the phenomena is sad.

Utterly sad and astonishing.

[DKRC]

33. K&R!

:applause:

[patrice]

38. I guess my basic premise is "As long as women depend upon men, men will tell them what to do."

Men think they own women, because women depend upon them economically and emotionally.

[Lerkfish]

42. I think that's true to some extent in some cases

but honestly, most married couples I know are either equal or the woman has the upper hand when it comes to decision making.
but this is far afield from the original issue, which was a father putting out a contract on his daughter for wearing a miniskirt.

[patrice]

50. I didn't get to see that news story, but I am thinking also about how the father got so

fucked up. Surely, we can't do something about everyone and everything, but we should try to do as much as we can to deal with the things that we can deal with.

[raccoon]

142. Most married couples I know, either the husband or the wife makes most all the decisions,

and the other party just goes along with it.

[varelse]

46. Human beings are social beings - we depend on each other - that does not mean we own each other

By the logic implied in your basic premise, all dependent children are the property of their parents, employers own "their" workers, and the elderly and disabled are chattel of the taxpayers or their own grown children.

It just doesn't work for me. Sorry.

[patrice]

52. The logicyou describe is the functional principle of the status quo. I am proposing a different one.

It doesn't work for me (and some others) either.

Both of my spouses (one is deceased) did/does not operate on that principle either; that's how I learned about Freedom.

[JerseygirlCT]

88. Well, ideally that dependence would go both ways, and in neither

way result in demeaning.

A couple ought to be able to depend on one another like that. Forget that, PEOPLE ought to be able to depend on one another, without that meaning they've ceded their rights.

I think there's this urge to be many, many, separate islands - but no man (or woman) is an island.

It's more about curbing the urge to control, than putting down the recognition that in many ways we are all dependent on one another.

[Lorien]

167. They can choose to, or they can choose not to.

I'm self employed and most of my clients are businesses with women at the helm. We don't "need" them in our lives; we can choose to live with them or without them.We do need to demand equal pay for equal work, though.

[MajorChode]

47. Women already have half the money and all the....

Class. Well most of it anyway.

I can't imagine how they are not ruling the world in this day and age.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

54. It's a cultural thing, I think.

Historically, men have dominated women, and we have allowed them to. For safety, for our children...like that.

And those are good things. But with dominance, you also get the bad stuff...demands for sex, allowances of money, all sorts of things, none of which I can think of right now, dammit.

But I'm sure you get my drift.

[MajorChode]

57. Around here it's more like begging for sex

But the allowance thing is pretty much spot on, although I wish I could get a raise.

Perhaps I should just work on establishing my dominance once and for all. I think the demand for sex thing might get my ass kicked though.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

58. LOL!

:rofl:

[chrisa]

79. Hehe.

:-)

[EFerrari]

59. Sing it,, my dear Sister Peggy!

:kick:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

64. Thanks to all these terrific responses, my dear EFerrari...

I am singing it!

Thank you...

[Laelth]

65. "Men" may not have that right.

But the laws of the United States, and the laws of the various States, do have that right, just as they can tell men what to do.

My Dear CaliforniaPeggy, if this were so simple, we would have solved this problem long ago. :toast:

:dem:

-Laelth

[CaliforniaPeggy]

66. I see what you're saying...

But, by and large, men made those laws...

[and-justice-for-all]

67. Men, specially the religous zealots...

DESPISE the fact that women have the ultimate power, a power they can never have. Women, get to decide who lives and who does not. That is what drives the pro-lifers and that is why they do not want women to have the right to choose.

[Ohio Joe]

69. Well said

It seems such a simple concept but men (in general) have not yet been able to understand it to this day.

K&R

[stevedeshazer]

80. You ain't been to my house!

But your point is well taken.

[Hello_Kitty]

94. The woman hating troll on this thread is picking on me!

I feel so special. :)

[Odin2005]

122. Virtually kick him in the you-know-where!

:evilgrin:

[Jamastiene]

97. I'm glad I saw this in time to K&R.

Well said. :thumbsup:

[MrMickeysMom]

99. My dear CaliforniaPeggy

I could not agree with you more!


It takes a lot, me thinks, to make things right.

[mopinko]

129. i always found the arguments against the era quite hysterical.

the nut jobs would get up there, and say we can't have the era, because a right to an abortion would flow from that. so, then, denying women a right to an abortion is denying her a fundamental right as an american? no, no, didn't say THAT! yeeeaaaahhhshur.

[IntravenousDemilo]

158. "Hysterical" is an interesting choice of word, considering its etymology. n/m

[Lorien]

168. I find the arguments pathetic and absurd

but not hysterical. If Obama really wants to help the majority in America he'll see that the ERA is finally passed.

[defendandprotect]

181. Campaign against ERA was heavily financed by Catholic and Mormon Churches . . .

with tax-free dollars!!

[cwydro]

135. what story is this Peg?

I missed it, I guess.

[Imagevision]

150. Men, it's a guy thing - they learn it from Dad...

[anonymous171]

153. Men should not be forced to pay child support. nt

[Starry Messenger]

156. I would think most men would want the best for their children.

It is more advantageous for everyone in the long run if children are supported by as many loving adults as possible.

edit:typo

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

157. Why not?

They're just as responsible for making the child.

[Hello_Kitty]

159. Oh yeah, they should be able to impregnate women all over the place

And let the taxpayers pick up the tab for the children's care. :eyes:

[SeattleGirl]

165. Then they should refrain from having sex. Just sayin'.

You don't want to support a child? Then don't participate in the activity that produces them.

[Arugula Latte]

171. Why shouldn't men have to pay child support? You wanna expand on that?

[TexasObserver]

177. Non custodial parents are forced to pay child support. Not a gender specific duty.

[Soylent Brice]

172. K&R

:)

[defendandprotect]

174. Start with organized patriarchal religions...the underpinning for patriarchy --

Obviously if males had self-proclaimed their superiority . . .

they would have been laughed at--!!!

Therefore, they invented an all-male sky god who proclaimed them superior!!!

[crimsonblue]

176. You tell them, Peggy..

Oh wait... would that be me telling you that you can tell them?

Anyway, I agree with the premise and conclusion of your statement Peggy.

[omega minimo]

183. So what's yer point?

:spray: :popcorn: :hi: :grouphug:

IMHO Womens Rights and GLBT in conjunction with each other will be a powerful Next Wave. :thumbsup: and inclusive of unresolved progress begun (and since reversed) in the Civil Rights Era.