Would you be comfortable with Patrick Fitzgerald being the Special Prosecutor on torture?

[NNN0LHI]

Poll question: Would you be comfortable with Patrick Fitzgerald being the Special Prosecutor on torture?

If your answer is "no" who would you prefer?

[SharonRB]

1. Fitz!

[Connie_Corleone]

2. No. He would complain about getting sand kicked in his face again.

I don't know who else could do it, but I know I don't want Fitzgerald.

[Duer 157099]

3. He blew his chance with me.

How about Turley, is he available?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

6. Turley's too biased -

his appearances on MSNBC disqualify him.

He'd be a great choice, though, I agree.

[mod mom]

64. How about a non partisan attorney that has worked w the IRC?

[MadMaddie]

4. I say yes because Fitz won't be held back

He will get all of the support and freedom to run his case. Unlike what he got from the previous administration.

[Skip Intro]

5. No. I don't trust him. I don't know who'd I'd prefer. An honest republican?

Or a unicorn, whichever we can find first...

[elleng]

7. And anything else.

'Crime' is his big thing, different from mere torture. :sarcasm:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

8. No -

he's tied up with the Blago case, which disqualifies him. He can't drop that and move back to DC.

Plus, he's married now. I seriously doubt his new wife would take kindly to an extended jaunt away from their home in Chicago.

[NNN0LHI]

11. He got the George Ryan conviction in 2006

He had been working that case since the 90's. He still found time for Scooter during that period.

Don

[Stinky The Clown]

18. I didn't know he was married ........

.... that explains some of the discontent here at DU ......


:ducking:



^j^o^k^e^

[Tangerine LaBamba]

22. You're a brave, brave man ..........

So what's your new screen name going to be?

[Stinky The Clown]

29. StnkyNoNutz

Its a street thing ......

[Missy Vixen]

48. Yes, he's married

Did I mention that he broke my heart? :cry:

Of course, I wish he and his bride nothing but happiness, even if she will never make him as happy as I could have. :woohoo:

[ProSense]

9. No.

Why isn't Rove in jail?

[hlthe2b]

10. Vincent Bugliosi!

:evilgrin:

[IDemo]

12. Bugliosi, Turley, or Greenwald would work for me

[scarletwoman]

13. No. I totally don't trust him. I'd trust John Dean -- yes, THAT John Dean.

However, I suppose John Dean wouldn't be qualified, since he was disbarred. That being the case, I'd trust anyone who John Dean might designate as trustworthy.

Patrick Fitzgerald can bite me.

sw

[merh]

19. Dean would be awesome

what about Vincent Bugliosi -

yeah, I know, too biased and convinced dubya is a murderer - but he would be great wouldn't he

[Stinky The Clown]

14. I voted no. I couldn't handle the disappointment a second time.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

15. No. I found his "sand in the face of the umpire" comment pathetic beyond all reason

For God's sake, don't MOST prosecutors have sand thrown in their face by their targets?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

20. Fitzgerald was never going to get anyone indicted ...........

Not under that law, not the way it's written. The language is so narrow, you practically need a public confession in order to get a conviction. It's a horrible, horrible law. No one's ever been convicted, and very few cases have even been brought -all threatened and then dropped.

Fitzgerald did the best anyone could do under the circumstances, but that law - and I cannot stress to you how significant this is - is impossible. A very bad piece of drafting.

BUT, when you consider who wrote it - Victoria Toensing - then it all makes sense, doesn't it?

He did a great job, and if all he got was Irving Libby, it wasn't a total waste. That Chimpy Fucknuts didn't pardon Libby makes it even better...........................

[Missy Vixen]

34. Patrick Fitzgerald managed to get the first conviction

of a White House staff member in over 100 years. Of course, this just isn't good enough for the vast majority of those who post here. THEY would get a Rove conviction and put Cheney on the stand. Ohhh, yeahhhh.

I have invited hundreds of posters over the years to go to www.firedoglake.com and read the Libby case archives; nobody takes me up on it. After all, it would change their opinion. Those of us that followed that trial read thousands of pages of testimony, etcetera.

And yeah, Tangerine LaBamba, WORD on the whole Victoria Toensing thing. She did prosecutors all over the country no favors with her badly drawn and unenforceable law.

:woohoo:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

37. Thank you , oh, she of the trampy new name ...........

Thank you for being a voice of informed reason here. I get so weary of those people who fixated on Karl Rove's "secret indictment" and all that other balderdash promulgated by bogus sites like truthout. Morans of the highest order.

Of course they're not going to do the actual WORK of reading about the Libby case, what it involved, how it came to be, and what the Toensing law meant in the great scheme of things. They'd much rather bitch and blame and broadcast their ignorance.

It's just tiresome to watch an exceptional attorney like Patrick Fitzgerald be pilloried by know-nothings with flaming pokers up their collective asses.

Thank you. I feel less alone, even though your name is slutty ....................

:applause:

[Missy Vixen]

46. It's my other identity

I seriously considered Saucy Minx. ;-) :woohoo:

In the meantime, I dare anyone currently on this site to take a job as a US Attorney. That's it. Work your ass off for twenty years at a fraction of what you'd make in a private firm, try a case that will dog you the rest of your career, and see how well you do with it.

Any conviction at all, especially with the greymail issues Libby and his counsel kept trying to bring up (and kept getting shot down by the judge,) was a friggin' miracle.

In the meantime, let's just say Karma's a bitch, and I have a feeling Mr. Cheney and Mr. Rove are about to find this little factoid out for themselves.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

69. Have you ever known anyone

who was under indictment? Or even given notice that they were being investigated?

They are obsessed. Nothing else matters in their lives, nothing. There is no pleasure, there is no distraction, there is no rest. The indictment/investigation is all they can think about, all they can talk about. They effectively become non-functioning human beings, able, at the best, to perform the most basic tasks - showering, getting dressed, feeding themselves.

It's a horrible thing to see, and I hope with all my might that someone, somewhere does what needs to be done to make sure those thugs in the White House get what they have coming to them.

In the meantime, watching the uninformed and ignorant around here prattle on about how badly Fitzgerald screwed up the Plame case is a lot like going to a zoo when all the animals have rabies. They haven't the slightest idea of what the law says, how pre-trial works, what it means to go to trial, how the various defenses and evidence work, but, boy, they KNOW that Fitzgerald SHOULD have brought other charges, that it was all theater, a sham, and they KNOW - this is implicit in their raving posts - that they could have done better.

And we laugh at the freepers for being stupid ...................

[Lerkfish]

78. wow, you seem to enjoy being particularly unpleasant

I feel sorry for you.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

79. Lerk - ellcheckspay! icklyquay!

Or you'll get a grammar notice that will singe your eyebrows. It's ok, she can't see me because I am acting under the cloak of invisibility of her ignore.

[Lerkfish]

80. well, not sure If I corrected the right thing, but thanks

[stillcool]

16. No please...

I'll take Eliot Spitzer though!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

21. I doubt that Spitzer

wants to visit DC ever again, you know?

[stillcool]

25. I know...just a fantasy...

[madrchsod]

17. i want him to stay in illinois and he has blago this summer

he`s probably still pissed about the saudi trial here in illinois and the inability to get the boys in the libby trial. the bush/cheney whitehouse fucked both his cases..

[Missy Vixen]

35. But...but...but...he's corrupt! He let them off!

Plus, he framed Blago! Blago's innocent! He said he was! :sarcasm:

[KharmaTrain]

23. I'd Pick David Igelsias

He's a former JAG and is already familiar with these cases. Fitz is more a "white collar" specialist, and he's got a lot on his plate here in Illinois.

I'll go one step further...I'd name Elliot Spitzer to investigate the Wall Street swindlers.

[dixiegrrrrl]

24. How about one of the wrongly fired US Attorneys? Seems fitting.

[Sebastian Doyle]

26. If Fitzgerald was worth a damn, Karl Rove would be making license plates right now

instead of lying his ass off in front of TV cameras on God knows how many different networks.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

30. You're wrong -

the law that Fitzgerald was charged with enforcing is an impossible bit of legal drafting at its worse. It's been said that you need a public confession in front of TV cameras and a stadium full of people in order to get a win.

Victoria Toensing wrote it.

Do you really need to know more?

Fitzgerald did the best that could be done, and it was a good piece of legal footwork that he got the Libby conviction.....

[Goblinmonger]

62. Silly, Rove was indited.

It just hasn't been released yet. 24 hours means something different in the law.

[Love Bug]

27. No! No Republicans and no one who had anything to do with the Bush admin.

Screw trying to look non-partisan. I'm sick of the whole lot of 'em. Put John Conyers in charge -- he's earned it.

[Lerkfish]

28. Fitzmas was Fizzlemas. For whatever reason, he was not allowed or was not able

to be effective.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

32. He was charged with enforcing a very bad law,

and impossible bit of politically charged hackery, written, and this should make it clear to you, by Victoria Toensing.

That Fitzmas nonsense was dreamed up by the same people who thought Jason Leopold was a brilliant "journalist.' Just a whole lot of uninformed, delusional idiocy........

[Lerkfish]

55. here's all I got from your post

blah blah blah you're an idiot blah blah blah I'm a genius blah blah I can be more obnoxious than you blah blah.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

65. Well,

at least you got the salient parts right ...................

[Lerkfish]

77. LOL! you are unintentionally hilarious!

was "salient" on your word a day calendar today?

keep up the comedy! you're killing me over here!


"Look, mommy, I can be relentlessly rude on the internet in your basement, cause guys can't find me. Aren't I BRAVE?"

[McCamy Taylor]

31. Um...where is the "HELL, NO!" response?

Just say no to the man who was too chicken shit to pursue the higher ups in the Plame Affair.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

33. Your ignorance is showing ...............

Fitzgerald did a noble and precise job, given the constraints of the law he was charged with enforcing.

Read the law, and you'll se that it's an incredibly narrow and limiting piece of work. It was written by Victoria Toensing. Do you need to know any more.

Fitzgerald worked as hard as he could, but he was working with both arms tied behind his back. Tell me one person who's ever been convicted under that law.

OK, that was a trick question. No one has ever been convicted under that law.

So don't blame a good lawyer who was burdened from the start by an untenable set of circumstances........................

[DCKit]

36. No! I don't know how or why, but he's beyond compromised.

I don't know if 'they' got to him, or that it may have been bipartisan (DLC), but his credibility disappeared faster than his investigation.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

38. You're right -

you don't know why.

If you'd taken the time to read the history of what Fitzgerald was charged with enforcing, the absolutely impossible law that had him hamstrung from the get-go, you'd be less ignorant. That you are willing to condemn a fine professional who did yeoman work in the face of irrefutable difficulties says volumes about your discrimination and intelligence, or the lack thereof.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

40. I do have one question for you

In multiple places in this thread you have referred to one specific law crafted by Victoria Toensig(?) that would be next to impossible for anyone but Superman to obtain a conviction for. I grant you that.

But don't prosecutors all over the country all the time include OTHER charges that may be easier to prove? Like a simple Obstruction of Justice charge? Or the charge they got Martha Stewart for? I alway thought this was a pure Kabuki theatre played out for the benefit of the peasants and that Fitzgerald played his role. Oh the sand, the sand!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

43. In no particular order,

Martha Stewart's case is a whole different matter, with absolutely no bearing on the one Fitzgerald undertook.

Yes, there are very often a panoply of charges that you'll find brought against individual defendants. But, the only person who ended up as a defendant was Irving Libby. There were conditions precedent that needed to be met before anyone could be indicted under what I now call the Toensing law, and those conditions are, for all practical purposes, impossible to meet. So, if you can't establish evidence of wrongdoing, you can't bring charges.

I am confident that Fitzgerald brought everything he could legally bring before the Grand Jury, and Federal Grand Juries in DC are notoriously scrupulous and very left-leaning. That he couldn't get anything out of that Grand Jury except Libby's charge tells you all about the absolutely impossibility of getting the Toensing law put into play.

If you honestly think that the law in the United States is a Kabuki theater - and I really don't know exactly what you mean by that - then you need to educate yourself about how the law works in this country. I would bring you back to the days of Watergate and how the law worked then when the actions of government employees were found to be illegal. Did you think that was Kabuki theater, too?

Fitzgerald did a gerat job. He was just pushing rocks uphill, and, given the hysteria that overtook so much of DU, given their ignorance of how the system worked, his reputation here was left in tatters, and that is profoundly unfair.

Educate yourself in how the system works - it's fascinating - and you'll have a much more generous and informed view of how well Fitzgerald did his job.

And, if you don't know who Victoria Toensing is, I urge you find out, because you'll then see that the back story to how laws are written is just as important as it is in good fiction or a good film script. She's a very significant individual in this whole story. It's a lot more complex than people realize, but most are just too lazy to do the reading that's readily available to them in order to become informed.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

54. Martha got nailed for lying to the investigators. Very simple.

I know who Victoria Toensing is, I saw her multiple times on television during the whole Scooter Libby circus- I had a question mark next to her name in my question to you because I wasn't sure I had spelled her name correctly. I can't really see the sense in drafting a law that supposedly protects CIA agents from being outed that is all but impossible to deploy.

I still stand with my observation that Fitzgerald could have likely deployed other charges had he been so inclined and also acted against other bad actors in the whole affair. So, yes, I thought and think that the whole thing was a badly acted play. My observation about law being Kabuki is also related to the whole politicization of the Justice Department under Bush - like the Seigleman prosecution and the firing of the USAs who weren't playing the game as enthusiastically as they should have been.

I don't know how reminiscing fondly about the law working during Watergate is relevant to this discussion. I remember Watergate well. Like the rest of America I watched the Ervin hearings and was happy to see so many of the wrongdoers dispatched to the Big House and the President flying off in a helocopter. Exactly what DIDN'T happen this time.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

67. The law worked in Watergate,

that was my point, and it's regrettable that you didn't understand it.

I also don't see what comparison can be drawn with Martha Stewart's case and the Fitzgerald investigation. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

If you think there were charges that should have been brought by Fitzgerald, I would like very much to know what they are. It's still a very significant episode in our recent history, and I would like to know how you see what should have been done.

Additionally, what makes you think it was "... a badly acted play."?

I look forward to your responses.

ON EDIT: It occurred to me that I'm giving credibility here to someone who doesn't have the slightest idea of how the law works. Sometimes my good manners and patience get in the way of being practical.

Unless you're an experienced attorney - and it's obvious that you're not - or unless you spent a lot of time studying the case, reading the archives and the court materials - and it's obvious you haven't - then I'm wasting my time in any kind of exchange with you. Clearly, you believe you know better than Fitzgerald, and that is just so stupid and laughable, I'll put you where you belong.

Enjoy your time in Ignoreland. There's lots of cud for you to chew.

And, what really funny, is that you'll respond to this. Clueless and lost in the bright light that is not your mind ..

[DCKit]

42. You are quite obviously passionate about Fitz...

But it would very much appreciated if you would consider disagreeing without being intolerably rude and disagreeable.:spank:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

44. I find attacks on Fitzgerald from

ignorant and uninformed people who feel free to defame him without having any substantive information a clarion call to defend him and to point out to those people that their words are insulting and offensive. If you find my response "rude and disagreeable," then, well, you don't do very well with straight talk and clear thinking. Clearly, you feel free to dish it out, but when it's tossed back at you, you go all wounded. Nice pose, but a great big fail.

Bombastic attacks on a man who did a heroic job are beneath what I think should be the absolute minimum of knowledge here at DU. If you don't know what you're talking about, and you admit it, then restrain yourself and keep your insults directed at a good man to yourself.

I would appreciate it you were better informed before you acted so badly......................

[DCKit]

47. Luckily for me, yours is the monority opinion.

Hey, I bought all the hype too, but you can only handle so much disappointment.

I hope it works out for the two of you.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

68. Luckily for me,

DU isn't the real world, and I know how to spell "minority."

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

74. Sadly, your polite admonition did not take.

Check out threads 67 and 69 for some real teeth-gnashing, spittle-spewing vituperation.

On a side note, I have come to believe in re-incarnation.

[DCKit]

75. Nah. It's a clear case of demonic possession and I'm all out of Holy water.

Jeebus, I thought I was logged onto that OTHER site for a bit there - single-minded obsession and no tolerance for other points of view - over Fitz, no less.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

76. I mentioned re-incarnation

because the posts are so reminiscent of someone who used to post just like that during the real Fitz days.

Cue up the orchestra - Memories, misty, water-colored memories . . .

[Norquist Nemesis]

39. He lost me with leaving a "cloud over the vp"

I really thought he'd be able to get to the bottom and get a conviction. After managing to get charges and a conviction on our previous Gov. Ryan (R), but then taking a completely different tack with our just impeached and ousted Gov. Blago (D)...his stock dropped dramatically, IMO.

With Ryan, he was out of office by the time charges finally came and he was given consideration to turn himself in. And after conviction, he was given consideration to show up for jail at a date and time to be determined instead of walking him out in handcuffs with sheriffs on both flanks. With Blago, they showed up at his door early morning and handcuffed him then Fitzy gave a press conference making some of the most hyperbolic public statements since Ken Starr.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

45. He rushed that announcement,

and got caught unprepared to bring an immediate indictment - as he should have - because the phone conversations Blago was having - and the Feds were listening to - alerted them to the very real possibility that Blago was going to sell Obama's Senate seat. That, clearly, was something Fitzgerald wanted to avoid, and so he jumped the gun.

Me, I'd have enjoyed seeing who bought that seat, but the prosecutors decided that were not going to let it go that far. That opened the door, of course, to the impeachment, and that may or may not work in Fitzgerald's favor when it comes to trial.

The Ryan situation and the Blago situation were very, very different.

[Norquist Nemesis]

50. Agreed they were different

but his public handling of them was very different as well.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

71. Of course they were ..........

No two cases are the same. There's no cookie-cutter plan of behavior for anything in any trial or investigation.

[annabanana]

56. I think Fitz would do a good job... I "watched" the live-blogging

of the libby trial gavel to gavel and I think he is a smart, pricipled prosecutor.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

70. He's the best ..............

But, given his history, it could - and would - be argued that he has an anti-Bush bias. That alone would disquaify him.

There are a whole lot of very good people out there, people we've never even heard of, who could do a sterling job.

Let's relax, though -there's no indication yet that anything is going to happen, so, until it does, it's best just to go on as if nothing is happening...................

[JI7]

41. NOOOOOOO

[Faryn Balyncd]

49. Bugliosi, Turley, Greenwald, or Bruce Fein.

Bruce Fein called for impeachment of Bush & Cheney for several years.

He has been highly critical of the Obama administration for excusing Bush/Cheney lawlessnes.

Fein would not be intimidated into holding off on prosecution (nor would Bugliosi, Turley, or Greenwald). And it would be hard indeed for the right wing to paint Fein as a tool of the Obama administration.


Fire Dog Lake: Talk about Torture with Bruce Fein:
http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/20/talk-about-torture-with-bruce-fein/

Air America Blog: How Obama Excused Torture
http://airamerica.com/blog/2009/apr/17/bruce-fein-how-obama-excused-torture

[Vidar]

51. Bugliosi.

[MagickMuffin]

52. No to Fritz, YES to David Iglesias

He was one of the 8 fired US attorneys.

He served in the United States Navy, and is a member of the U.S. Naval Reserve. While in the navy, from 1985 and 1988, he was a judge advocate (JAG), at the Pentagon and Naval Legal Service Office, in Washington, D.C., at the Washington Navy Yard. In 1986, he was one of the members of the legal team that was the inspiration for the film A Few Good Men, with Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson, a case involving the assault of a fellow Marine at their base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

At the time of his appointment to U.S. Attorney, Iglesias was an associate with the law firm of Walz and Associates in Albuquerque, as well as a Commander in the U.S. Naval Reserve JAG Corps.

Former U.S. Attorney David Iglesias selected as Gitmo prosecutor.

In an interview with a local New Mexico station today, fired U.S. Attorney David Iglesias, a JAG corps member, said that he has been tapped to be part of a special team of prosecutors for Guantanamo detainees. "One hundred percent of what I'm doing is prosecuting terrorist cases out of Guantanamo," he explained. "We want to make sure that those terrorists that did commit acts will be brought to justice -- and those that did not will be released."

I think he wouldn't approve of torture and would be a great candidate. Not sure if he could get the job since he is representing Gitmo detainees.

[Occam Bandage]

53. I don't think it matters.

I doubt even God Himself could put Cheney away. As the Plame affair showed, it only takes one fall guy willing to obstruct justice, and the whole thing falls apart.

[depakid]

57. If you want anything at all resolved before 2018

Better find another guy....

[adamuu]

58. i'm torn

On the one hand, he's deliberative and thorough. These are great qualities.
On the other, he stops short of exercising the full powers granted to him, to the detriment of the case. He's too careful, insomuch as that is possible.

[jmowreader]

59. I would MUCH prefer Carol Lam or Paul Charlton

Carol Lam is the woman who put Duke Cunningham in prison, and was rewarded for it by being fired in the Great Purge of December 2006. Paul Charlton (another victim of the Great Purge) would be good too--he got canned for investigating Rick Renzi. They're good attorneys who have a justifiable case of the ass against the Bush Administration--they'll do what needs to be done.

If we're going to use Fitz, and I think we need to, let's have him lock up the people who hosed the world economy. There is no way you could fuck the economy so thoroughly and not have committed at least a couple hundred felonies.

This could tie in with marijuana decriminalization: if Fitz catches all the people responsible for the economic disaster, and Carol Lam catches all the people responsible for torture, they'll have to release all the pot "criminals" to make room for the real ones.

[Canuckistanian]

60. I don't know

I think Fitzgerald reached superstar status because of the high profile cases he took on. He wasn't afraid of taking on the big people.

But that doesn't mean that he's a technically good prosecutor.

Someone else for this one, please.

[Goblinmonger]

61. Yeah, because then he'll indite Rove.

:hide:

[AngryAmish]

63. No - we have many more crooks in Illinois to put away

Blago is gone. Bill Cellini - that is a big fish.

Jesse Jackson, Jr. - both a snitch and a crook.

Eventually someone will tie it to Daley.

Erkel Stroger is doing some nasty things too.

Many more crooks out there.

[WeDidIt]

66. Damned straight I would!

I live near Chicago.

Fitzgerald is a hero in these parts.

[NNN0LHI]

72. Wouldn't it be something if the same guy who indicted bin Laden went after our War Criminals?

Kind of like closing the circle.

Don

[Imagevision]

73. is this the same "Fitz" that nailed Scooter Libby" - that Fitz?

[alcibiades_mystery]

81. He's seems like a bit of a bungler, quite frankly

[Ganja Ninja]

82. No!

Why not find a dyed in the wool Democrat for a special prosecutor? We need someone that isn't afraid of being bias and actually wants to go after the Bush cabal.

[SKKY]

83. Comfortable? I demand it!!!!!!!