Police say mom ordered daughters out, drove off

[Liberal_in_LA]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j3OaSelj77mH79weR9dXcXylTayQD97N3NAG0

By JIM FITZGERALD – 6 hours ago

WHITE PLAINS, N.Y. (AP) — Usually, it's an empty threat: "If you kids don't stop fighting, I'm going to stop this car right now and leave you here!" But a mother from an upper-crust New York suburb went through with it, ordering her battling 10- and 12-year-old daughters out of her car in White Plains' business district and driving off, police said Tuesday.

Madlyn Primoff, 45, a partner in a Manhattan law firm, pleaded not guilty Monday to a charge of endangering a child. A temporary order of protection was issued, barring her from contact with the children, who were physically unharmed.

------------

White Plains police said Primoff ordered the arguing girls out of the car Sunday evening as they were driving home. She left them at Post Road and South Broadway, an area of shops and offices 3 miles from their home, then drove off, the police report said.

The report does not say whether the girls had cell phones.

Police would not say if Primoff ever returned to look for the girls, but they said, without explaining how, that the 12-year-old eventually caught up with the mother. The 10-year-old was found by a "Good Samaritan" on the street, upset and emotional about losing her mother, police said.

The girl gave police her mother's name and their address in well-to-do Scarsdale, and they asked Scarsdale police to check Primoff's $2 million house. Shortly afterward, Primoff called Scarsdale police from home to say the 10-year-old was missing, said Scarsdale Detective Lt. Bryant Clark.

from another article, She's a partner in a law firm!

http://wjz.com/watercooler/madlyn.primoff.kick.2.990844.html

Primoff allegedly circled the block a few times, lost sight of the 10- and 12-year-old, and then drove to her multi-million dollar home in Scarsdale.

--------------------------

Primoff spent Sunday night in the White Plains lock-up, then made bail on Monday, right after a judge hit her with a restraining order restricting her contact with her own children.

Police said the mother exhibited "inadequate guardianship" as her 10-year old wandered White Plains alone for 40 minutes.

Primoff is a partner at Kaye-Scholer, a prominent Manhattan law firm.

[LeftyMom]

1. It's child endangerment to let ten and twelve year olds find their own way home?

Jesus, we had to do that all the time when I was a kid. And we didn't have cell phones, and probably a lot less money than kids who live in a two million dollar house, too.

[Liberal_in_LA]

3. reading further, looks like she didn't mean to leave 'em that long. Lost track of them.

[pnwmom]

15. And it looks like the "Good Samaritan" might have made things worse

when s/he took the 10 year old into the ice cream store.

If the girl had stayed on the route toward home, as her older sister did, her mother probably would have picked her up when she swung around the block.

"According to the police report, the 10-year-old was emotional as she described her mom demanding both youths exit the vehicle when they wouldn't stop fighting. A good Samaritan took the distraught girl to an ice cream store and called police."

SNIP

Police would not say if Primoff ever returned to look for the girls, but they said, without explaining how, that the 12-year-old eventually caught up with the mother. The 10-year-old was found by a "Good Samaritan" on the street, upset and emotional about losing her mother, police said.

[LisaL]

19. How did the good samaritan make things worse?

I get that if you see a crying 10 year old who is alone (as described in the link below), you will just ignore it?
http://lohud.com/article/20090421/NEWS02/904210347

[pnwmom]

21. By taking her into the ice cream store, where her mother wouldn't see her

when she was circling the block (as she did several times).

The G.S. could have found someone with a cell phone who could call the police from wherever the girl was -- rather than moving the girl to a place where she couldn't be found by her mother.

[LisaL]

22. The article said the girl was wandering around for 40 minutes.

[pnwmom]

25. That forty minutes of wandering could have included the stop in the

ice cream shop with the G.S. --it's not clear from the article.

[LisaL]

27. I fail to see as to how good samaritan, upon finding a crying 10

years old, should have figured out the mother of that child might be possibly driving looking for her, after that mother kicked that child out of the car. I imagine the samaritan's concern was with the child.
The mother is lucky it was a good samaritan and not some pervert.

[pnwmom]

28. The safest thing to do when you're lost is to stay put. The girl should have

been told to stay where she was, while the G.S. went inside for help, if she needed to. Or the G.S. could have called the police from the sidewalk. She didn't need to take her inside the ice cream shop, where her mother and sister couldn't find her.

[LisaL]

29. The child was kicked out of the car.

What on Earth would make the G.S. to think the mother would be looking for her, when that same mother kicked her out?

[pnwmom]

31. Read the other posts in this thread. Other posters describe this happening

to them, and the parent coming back to get them.

This has never happened to me, but I bet that's the usual scenario.

Also, the 12 year old sister could have been looking for her, but she wouldn't have been able to find her either.

[LisaL]

34. Would you be so understanding if somebody did that to your

10 year old child?

[pnwmom]

40. It would depend entirely on the circumstances.

But the fact was this WAS her child. A bus driver wouldn't have known the capabilities of any of his riders. This mother knew better than anyone else how familiar her girls were with the area, whether they had walked or taken the city bus in the area before, whether they had money or a phone. She probably expected that they would stay together, and she circled back to pick them up. Unfortunately, they separated and the younger one ended up inside a shop where she couldn't be found.

[TBF]

107. That is completely ludicrous. Those kids could've been picked up

by a pedophile in the 20 minutes it took her to circle around. No wonder there are so many thoughtless adults in this world, if this is how people bring up their children.

I have a 5 yr old and 2 yr old and they can get loud. What is so hard about pulling off safely, coming to a stop, and calm them down before proceeding. It really isn't that difficult. My 5-yr old will agree to just about anything to keep her Wii privileges. This isn't rocket science.

[msanthrope]

117. There's no evidence she 'circled around'....sad to say. Mommy DROVE HOME.

And called the cops from there.

She left the jurisdiction, and called the Scarsdale police.....

[pnwmom]

158. For you to assume there's no evidence means you assume she's lying.

I'm not.

The 12 year old was with her. How do you know the 12 year old wouldn't say the same thing?

[LisaL]

193. Even if she circled around a couple of times, there is no

information given that the reason she didn't find the child is because the child has gone into the store. This is your interpretation of the event.

[pnwmom]

208. It's a logical interpretation. If her mother was looking for her near where

she had left her on the sidewalk, or somewhere on the route toward home, then she wouldn't be able to find her inside a random ice cream shop.

[LisaL]

218. Articles say the mother drove around a couple of times then

went home. You are trying to make it sounds as if the mother kept on looking for her.

[pnwmom]

221. The article said "a few times" . That would

have given plenty of time for the girl to disappear inside an ice cream store.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

225. It could have been only once or twice. The cross streets are one way and so you have to go down

2 blocks in order to turn and the blocks are long. White Plains can be confusing. When I have to go down there it's always an adventure.

I thought of something else. Why didn't the Mom just stay in White Plains and call the police from there rather than go home? I just don't think she was thinking clearly.

[pnwmom]

227. My teenage son and I had a mix-up about where I was supposed to get him.

It was at one of two places. I drove back and forth between the two places several times, then finally decided to drive home to see if he was walking along the way. When I got in the door, I was still hoping to find him, or to find a message on the machine. Nothing. I went back yet again and found him at one of the two places. Having missed me on one of my swings past that location, he had gotten tired of waiting for me so he had gone into a store to get a snack.

That is when I suddenly discovered the virtues of cell phones.

Which is a long way of saying, this mother might have decided to see if she could find her daughter walking along somewhere en route toward home.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

228. The girl obviously wasn't "equipped" to even try and make her way home.

She felt deserted and was crying when the GS helped her. Luckily the GS wasn't a predator and the girl was safe.

BTW...if it was just me, I probably wouldn't have a cell phone. I bought them for myself and sons as safety nets, and you have no idea how happy I am to have that. I cannot even count the number of times it's come in handy.

[pnwmom]

230. I was slow to get on the cell phone bandwagon because hardly anyone had

one when my oldest was in high school, and she refused to carry one while in college (said it felt too much like an umbilical cord). I got my second child a disposable one when he got his driver's license, and he'd never wanted one before then.

I'm a convert now, as far as my third child is concerned -- but I still hardly ever use one myself.

[JonLP24]

229. Maybe the mother drove home thinking they were at home

Then called police realized they didn't make it home. Honestly I don't know but that is a logical explanation.

[pnwmom]

231. That's what I tend to think, too. n/t

[pnwmom]

157. We're talking about a 10 and 12 year old, not a 2 and 5 year old.

That is a HUGE difference. Sixteen year olds have driver's licenses in most states. They have to begin having more responsibility years earlier.

[TBF]

173. 10 & 12 is not too old to be approached by a pedophile - we've all seen the cases in the news where

even young women go missing & are found in some deserted canyon somewhere. This spring here in Suburban Houston we had one abducted outside a Catherine's store at the end of her shift(found a month later dead in a trailer - for her car), and one abducted coming out of a Kohl's in broad daylight and found dead a couple of days later in a ditch (that one was sexual assault & she was 28). To dump out a 10 & 12 year old, especially near the highways in White Plains, was incredibly stupid and unsafe. She's lucky those girls are still alive.

We all do the best we can as parents, and I don't know that I'd charge her with a crime (I'd probably order some anger management classes if I were the judge), just stating that I don't think this was safe at all, much less appropriate behavior, and a woman who is a partner at a law firm knows better.

[pnwmom]

174. My problem with this is not in criticizing the mother --

I'd never have done what she did -- but I think the criminal action against her now is nuts. Are the girls better off now that there is a restraining order preventing them from being with their mother? I sincerely doubt it.

Also, yes, there is a tiny chance that that Sunday evening a pedophile would have found one of the girls and taken her. But the risk of an attack doesn't go away when a girl is 13, or 14, or even 24. How much and for how long do we need to shelter our children? That is a difficult decision every family has to make.

[TBF]

177. Well we agree on the criminal action part - I even have a hard time

blaming parents when they leave babies in the car & forget about them (we all see those cases & think but for the grace of god that could be one of us...).

I plan to shelter my children forever, as you can see. :) I know, it's a difficult topic.

[msanthrope]

119. And here, the Mom DROVE HOME, and left her kid. There's no

evidence presented that she circled back to pick anyone up....

Please, read the article....

She Drove Home, leaving the kid in White Plains, to her home. Then, she called the cops.

[Liberal_in_LA]

195. Another article said she circled the block, lost sight of them, then went home

Granted she probably should have looked a little harder but maybe she thought they would arrive at home soon.

[northzax]

128. well, let's see

when I was ten my mom made my sister and I ride out bikes ten miles down the Trans-Canada highway (it was a road, not a separated highway) because we wouldn't stop bickering. big deal.

[msanthrope]

121. Right--the 10 year old should know "the usual scenario"? But the Mom drove home

read the article.

She didn't stick around in White Plains.

She drove home to Scarsdale.

[pnwmom]

163. You might want to try reading the 2nd article yourself. n/t

[LisaL]

194. Even the second article doesn't support your claim

that the reason she didn't find the child is because the child has gone to the store.

[pnwmom]

209. How could she see her child INSIDE the store? n/t

[LisaL]

219. What exactly suggests the child was inside the store when

mother was driving around?

[pnwmom]

222. What doesn't? The mother drove around the block a few times,

which gave the girl plenty of time to disappear inside a store.

[Hippo_Tron]

45. There's a difference between what was acceptable then and what is acceptable now

[pnwmom]

59. 16 year olds get their driver's licenses in most states. At 18 they can marry or

join the military.

Before then, they need to gradually take on more and more freedom and responsibility. By 10 - 12 they should have some freedom of movement, whether walking or by public transportation, within a reasonable radius of their home.

Yes, there was the perception of kids being safer a generation ago. But I'm not sure they were really safer; I think the mass media didn't exist in the same way then, so every missing child didn't immediately get broadcast across the whole country.

[AngryAmish]

113. Things were much more dangerous a generation or two ago

Crime spiked in the 6s and 70s, really spiked in 80s with crack.

By any objective standard children are safer nowadays.

[mudesi]

64. No There Isn't

It wasn't acceptable then and it's still not acceptable now.

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. only because each generation of kids are less able to cope with the actual world. n/t

[Raineyb]

141. Well if leaving 10 and 12 year olds on the sidewalk constitutes inadequate supervision

then it's only going to get worse.

Regards

[Xithras]

171. Only because the CNN mindrot machine has raised a generation of paranoid parents.

My children walk or ride their bike several miles to and from school every day. Crime numbers show that kids are safer doing so now than when we grew up. Any impression otherwise is pure media hype.

[LeftyMom]

183. Why?

Keep in mind that I was these kids' age in the early 90's. Or that kids in most tax brackets are still expected to get themselves around at that age.

[texanwitch]

46. I can't believe these kids couldn't find their way home.

They are half grown, at what age do they learn.

[msanthrope]

73. From White Plains to Scarsdale???? Obviously, you don't know

the area.

It's not as if you just walk home.

[pnwmom]

85. It is 3 miles, according to the article. Are the roads unwalkable? What

about busses?

[msanthrope]

115. 3 miles as the crow flies--no 3 miles of straight roads, no sidewalks for most of it.

Busses, on a Sunday evening? Direct to Scarsdale??? Nope.


It's pretty obvious you don't know the area.

Now, the mother drove home, and didn't call the cops 'til she drove home.

Pretty stupid of her. And you expect better from the offspring?

[pnwmom]

161. She circled the block several times, found one daughter but not the other,

then drove home -- no doubt still hoping to find the 10 year old en route. When she didn't, she called police.

[Ilsa]

135. Some girls' brains don't develop that kind of big mapping

for a few more years. I met a woman here in our town of 70,000 whose daughter, who did have her drivers license and had lived her all her life, couldn't find her way to the mall on the main drag. The girl wasn't stupid, she was an A-B student. She just had never paid attention to directions, etc like that. On the other hand, I suspect she was probably very good at social graces, reading people's emotions, etc. (Her mother is.)

That may not be the reason for the 12 yo being "lost", but I'm just saying that with kids, unless you know them, you may not be able to judge where they are reasonably at in their development.

[pnwmom]

207. Maybe some. My daughter started trying to direct my driving

when she was 3 (She was correct, but so was I. I had to convince her that there was usually more than one way to drive to any given location, and that my way was just as good as hers.)

[msanthrope]

81. 20 minutes away, at least, by car, and public transportation, on

a Sunday, would have taken hours, with transfers. That's if the kids could have figured it out.

[pnwmom]

86. Twenty minute drive to go 3 miles ? 9 miles/hr. in a car?

You must have unbelievable traffic there. And I thought we had it bad.

[msanthrope]

108. 3 miles as the crow flies to the edge of Scarsdale....it's not 3 miles on

on straight shot....

Ever try to go 1 mile in Manhattan? Or LA? Take you a lot longer than 20 minutes.

[pnwmom]

197. One mile in LA doesn't usually take 20 minutes, much less "a lot longer."

That's ridiculous.

If that were true, then everybody might as well ditch their vehicles, because they can walk at the rate of 3 miles an hour and save a lot of gas.

[babylonsister]

2. I had a bus driver who did this. Vacated the whole bus, all

of about 20 of us students, all ages. She got fed up, seriously. I don't think the spit balls, cursing, etc., helped. But it was in the middle of no where, right after a bridge on Long Island. Ah, youth! And WAY before cell phones.

I think she calmed down finally and corralled us, but don't remember.

[Hekate]

203. Jeez Babs, that sounds like a story that will enliven every school reunion for a lifetime....

Sorry for laughing out loud.

Hekate

[FreakinDJ]

4. Geez - Allow the mother to raise her children please

[riderinthestorm]

5. Could there be more to this story??!!

I know I used to walk with my friends and siblings 1.5 miles to our town's "downtown", a place very similar to White Plains NY when I was 10 years old. All of us were in that general age range - 10 to 12 with my older sister occasionally coming along.

I've also dropped off my tweener girl and her friends in downtown Wheaton when we lived there - again quite similar to White Plains - to browse, hit the popcorn shop, hang around the water fountain.....

I'm guessing there's more to the story? :shrug: Maybe it's because the 10 year old was upset at the mom for doing this?

[Demeter]

6. But These Delicate Flowers Get Priority Treatment

all three of them. Perfect sitcom material.

[Raineyb]

7. I was talking mass transit by myself at 10. They call this inadequate guardianship?

WTF is wrong with these people?

Regards

[pnwmom]

11. I taught my children to use public busses by the time they were that age.

It's part of growing up. You gradually expose them to more challenging situations.

And these two girls had each other -- or they were supposed to.

[LisaL]

20. The article I've read is that 12 years old run after the car

and apparently was allowed back in.
"The 10-year-old told police she had been arguing with her sister when her mother stopped the car at Post Road and South Broadway, told them to get out, and drove off.

The 12-year-old ran after the car and apparently caught up to it and was allowed back in.

A passerby who saw the younger girl crying on Mamaroneck Avenue bought her ice cream and contacted White Plains police, who searched the area but were unable to find the mother."


http://lohud.com/article/20090421/NEWS02/904210347

[Dappleganger]

12. I did this once.

Had a mouthy (then) 14 yr. old son who wouldn't stop despite repeated warnings over several days. I'd had enough of his shit, pulled over to the first neighborhood we encountered on the way home from school one day and told him to walk his smart ass home because we had ALL (his siblings and myself) had enough.

We were only two miles from the house at the most and it is sidewalk all the way in a very safe neighborhood (suburban), and a familiar area. By the time he arrived home he was very apologetic and now he doesn't doubt me one bit when I tell him that his mouthing off is enough--he knows what I will do. He was also embarrassed about having to walk past all of his friends' homes because they know he usually gets picked up by one of us. BTW this kid had just hit 6' when he was that age (he's now 6'3").

Did this woman show good judgment? Just going by sheer age, I don't think so but I definitely empathize with her. I would never drop any child of mine at that age, male or female (we have two of each). This is NY--how safe an area is that? I know our area is safe but still wouldn't chance it with middle schoolers. My son was a freshman in HS at the time.

There's probably a lot of details we don't know so I won't say anymore.

[pnwmom]

23. White Plains is a suburb, this is an area of shopping malls.

Probably lots of girls that age walk around there on any given day.

[LisaL]

24. Really?

Sunday evening? Lots of 10 years old girls walking around?

[pnwmom]

30. She was left on the sidewalk, with her twelve year old sister.

And evening is around 5 or 6 o'clock. Still plenty of light.

[LisaL]

33. If this was a bus driver driving your 10 year old kid from school, and that

bus driver made your kid exit the bus miles from home, but with plenty of light, would you be singing the same tune? Why do you think that what this woman did was so well and good?

[pnwmom]

35. Our school district had us walk up to 2.5 miles through a similar

sized town in order to get to school. (Busses weren't available unless you lived farther away.)

Elementary school students were considered capable of walking 2 miles each way.

A bus driver doesn't know the individual children on the bus. I'm assuming that this woman knew her children and was planning on coming back for them. You aren't.

Unfortunately, the G.S. who tried to help made it impossible for the mother to find her child (by taking her inside a store).

I have helped lost children a number of times over the years, but I never move them from where I encounter them, much less take them somewhere else for ice cream. I get help to come to US.

[LisaL]

38. When you make your child to leave you car, and drive away,

things can happen. A good samaritan can come and take that child inside the store. Somebody who didn't have good intentions could have happened upon that child. You don't know what will happen to the child who is left alone. Isn't that the whole point of her being charged?
:eyes:

[pnwmom]

47. I don't know what the point is of her being charged. Is the point that 10-12 year

olds can never be walking outside by themselves? In a shopping area in a suburb like White Plains?

As a parent, I had to decide how much freedom to allow my children as they grew, and what responsibilities. I also taught them how to handle themselves when in public without me. (Going into an ice-cream shop with a stranger would have been a no-no.)

I read something by a child psychologist pointing out that since children are considered adults when they are 18 -- and they often have driver's licenses by 16 -- they need to be gradually prepared for this. She said that a 10 year old should be half-way there. For example, I think ages 10-12, depending on the child, and the area where you live, would be a good age to start learning how to take city busses -- first with a parent, then by themselves. (When I was ten, I frequently rode my bike to the shopping center a couple miles away.)

[northzax]

131. i bet the kids will be better off in foster care

surely there are lots of good foster homes in Scarsdale, right?

[pnwmom]

162. Yeah, right.

Oodles of them.

[havocmom]

58. When kids that age are not made to understand that bad behavior has consequences,

things can happen too. Kids need to be raised. Sometimes that requires making them deal with consequences of their failure to behave. At 10 and 12, they should be able to find their way home, and the mother DID stay in the area looking after them.

What the 10 year old has now learned is that she can mess up and somebody else will be punished.

I wonder if that is how george W. bush learned he could get away with crap all his life. Not teaching youngsters that actions/behaviors have consequences is how to build irresponsible monsters.

[msanthrope]

82. Who says the 12 year old didn't walk off?

I mean, they were fighting. I hope this mother didn't put 2 kids out of the car who were fighting, thinking that one kid would protect the other.

[havocmom]

84. She didn't hide. She was out in view, en route....

The 10 year old ducked into a shop with a stranger. Why blame the 12 year old?

[msanthrope]

99. I'm not blaming the 12 year old--she acted like a 12 year old.

And the 10 year old acted like a 10 year old....

and the Mom didn't stay to look, she drove home.

[LisaL]

191. What makes you think the mother couldn't find

the child because she "ducked into a shop with a stranger?" Good samaritan helped a child who was alone and upset, as hopefully any good person would do.

[pnwmom]

198. Because that's what happened. Her mother was circling around the block,

looking for her in the street, but the daughter had gone inside a shop with the stranger. Good Samaritan or not, well-intentioned as s/he may have been, that person WAS a stranger, and encouraged the child to leave the area where the mother was most likely to find her.

Hopefully most good people would have the sense to get help for the child WITHOUT removing her from the location where she was encountered.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

102. Not at that intersection. The mall nearby is a few streets away and this was on Sunday night

and most stores up here close on Sundays at 6PM. The location she left them in would have been pretty much deserted on a Sunday night.

[WI_DEM]

120. yeah probably could be lots of perverts on the prey for a vulnerable 10 year old too.

[Skittles]

44. my boyfriend's mom did it to him and his two brothers

for a couple of blocks

[Raineyb]

49. Like I said I was taking mass transit in NYC at 10. I had a pass at 11

to go to school on mass transit. Children at that age should be able to find their way home as they ought to be taking themselves to school. What should not be happening is some strange dude taking the child to an ice cream shop in the first place. Clearly the child there didn't learn the lessons about talking to strangers. And certainly the police should not be talking nonsense about inadequate supervision for 10 and 12 year olds who at this age should know how to get themselves home. How many junior high school kids are being dropped off at home by their parents? Not many I'd say.

You could have dropped me anywhere in the 5 boroughs with a token and I'd find my way home. By 14 I went anywhere in the city I wanted so long as I can get back home at a decent hour. How do we trust 16 year olds to get behind the wheel of a car but we can't trust a 14 year old on mass transit?

At this rate you might as well give the kids to the cops to raise as they seem inclined to arrest for anything that's not utter coddling.

Regards

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

106. The city is far different than Westchester. Mass transit up here is terrible. I grew up in

NYC and could have gotten home (if I had the money) from anywhere. Walking in many areas are next to impossible to do safely. For many years one of my main jobs as Mom was to play chauffeur.

[msanthrope]

129. It's deliberately terrible....Mass Transit in Westchester serves

two purposes:

1) Get the maids to the edges of the affluent areas.

2) Keep the affluent areas otherwise inaccessible unless by car.

(Grew up there, know it well.)

The trains (Metro North, etc...) exist only to take people to and from NYC, not move within the county.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

145. Agreed. :)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

147. I just have to add, after reading replies on the thread, people are giving opinions with No Clue

about the area and how difficult it would be for them to get home.

[LisaL]

190. I don't think you need to know the area to figure that out.

This was on Sunday, and a lot of buses don't even operate on Sunday. Even if the buses were running, the kids would have to somehow figure out where to get on the bus, and which bus to take.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

211. And that is with people assuming that the girls had money on them. As it turns out

the older girl chased after the Mom and got back in the car but the 10 year old was left behind. What are the odds that a 10yr old has bus fare?

I just read a news report, the Mom can now have contact with her kids via a judge ruling.

[northzax]

130. it's White Plains

yes, it's in the State of New York, but it's not the City of New York. it's a wealthy commuter city known for, among other things, IBM's corporate headquarters. Average household net worth is over $750k. it ranks in the top 2% of cities, nationally, for highly paid women, and percentage of the population having graduate degrees. in fact, the only closeby place wealthier and more education is Scarsdale. it's not like the kids were dropped off in Queens.

[Dappleganger]

151. Damn.

I can't imagine making that kind of money.

[tularetom]

8. We did that to one of our football coaches when I was in HS

Not exactly we just faked his voice when the other coach asked if he was on the bus and the bus driver drove off without him. He had gone in to take a leak and when he came out the bus was gone. That was Friday night and on Monday we had to run about 4 million laps. But we didn't care. We laughed our asses off for a week.

Only thing I felt bad about was his wife had to drive about 30 miles to pick up his sorry ass.

[firedupdem]

9. I'm glad they didn't catch me. I've kicked my boys out of the car

before..drove around the block and picked them back up. I didn't lose track of them thank goodness..but this isn't a big deal to me. :shrug:

[pnwmom]

10. Our school district required students to live 2.5 miles away from their

middle/high schools if they wanted to take a bus; everyone else was supposed to walk. It was 2 miles for elementary students.

It's hard to imagine these two girls, left together, were at high risk in the shopping area in broad daylight in White Plains.

[havocmom]

61. Same experience, growing up in southern California. Long walk to and from school

Honestly, it is like half the people want to keep youngsters helpless infants during their entire 'formative' years. Then we rail (on DU and in general in our culture) about people who are incapable, clueless 'morans' when they reach adulthood. Too few seem to notice there is a connection. And they sure come down hard on those of us who know being a loving parent involves making kids stretch, expand and learn to accept responsibility.

I do not get it at all. It is like we are supposed to keep these kids naive and then whine when they don't have any critical thinking skills.

:banghead:

[Ms. Toad]

13. My parents did that pretty frequently...

Five kids in the back of a station wagon - only so many times a parent can listen to kids whining "make him stop looking at me," "his finger was on my side of the line," etc.

Of course, we were generally on relatively rural highways, they never went more than a quarter mile ahead - slowly enough that we were always in sight, and times were a little less blatantly dangerous then.

Worked pretty well. We were tired and didn't feel so much like picking on each other when we caught up with the car.

[dysfunctional press]

17. same kind of thing here...though it was usually my aunt kicking out me and my cousins.

i'm glad that i'm not going to be around to see the reins of power passed to the current coddled generation of snot-nosers.

[woo me with science]

14. Sheesh.

Pretty soon they will require that all children be bubble-wrapped and held by the hand at all times.

[dorkulon]

18. Only with latex gloves.

We wouldn't want them to get germs on their precious little hands.

[woo me with science]

48. LATEX???? What is this, some kind of SICK JOKE????!!!!!!!

You CHILD KILLER!!!! CHILD KILLER, YOU!!!!!!!

http://fc.sudbury.k12.ma.us/~christy_carrara/FOV2-0000FD54/?OpenItemURL=S00B798F7

http://www.willistonherald.com/articles/2009/02/22/news/doc49a0de53da4af610064973.txt

http://www.gilroydispatch.com/printer/article.asp?c=86045

[Kali]

16. WTF?

Endangering a child? Seems like she spared them from real endangerment - arguing girls in a vehicle can make one feel like driving off a cliff.

[emilyg]

26. Yep.

[petronius]

118. Or my dad's patented reachbacksmack - I'd rather have been put on the curb

I don't know enough about these girls or the area to have a real firm opinion on this particular case, but I'm feeling like much of the reaction is excessive - arrest? an order of protection? :wtf:

[Maru Kitteh]

32. #1 rule. NEVER make empty threats.

#2 rule. NEVER leave your pre-teen kids unprotected in the city.


serious fail

[dkf]

36. This is totally weird.

I swear we used to walk home by ourselves, visit friends homes, occasionally take the bus to the shopping center, etc by the time we were 10-12.

My mom stopped picking me up and dropping me off quite a few years earlier than that.

She was a stay at home mom though, so we weren't latch key kids.

[pnwmom]

39. We did, too. Many parents today are more restrictive, but I don't think

the rest of them belong in jail.

[TheMadMonk]

41. At that age we could be found anywhere in a 5 mile radius of home.

In storm drains, down mine shafts, all those fun places we knew we shouldn't be.

Only rule was be home by tea if we wanted to eat with the family, or home by dark if we didn't mind warm shoe leather from the warming drawer of the woodfired stove.

We've made the world a far less safe place for kids, just by decreeing it so. Yet even today, when by emptying the streets of other kids to scream blue murder we make "random" attacks on those few kids that are out, more possible, such occurences are still extremely rare.

And yes, I'm one of those kicked out of the car. About ten miles from anywhere on one occasion IIRC. Was a great opportunity to sneak in a ciggie on a long road trip.

I will side with the others against the good samaritan. By removing the child from the street they made finding the child that much more difficult and turned what should have been a well hammered in lesson into a likely CPS debacle.

[TheMadMonk]

42. Bloody dupe.

[GTurck]

37. In the 1950's...

I used to regularly go from the NW side of Chicago to the Loop by myself at about the same ages. I knew that there was great danger in the world but I felt empowered to be able to navigate in the larger world safely. AND it gave me respite from a very unhappy family situation. Today's sheltered child will not have the same feeling as I did nor will they learn that by protecting themselves they are also learning how to behave as an adult in an adult world and not the one manufactured on TV where children are psuedo-adults without any responsibilty of adult proportions.
I don't really advocate that sort of occurance and especially not in the 21st century but I also think that there is way too much hovering over older school age children today. Parents at the end of their rope often do things to drive home the depth of their aggravation. Sometimes they even lose it altogether and behave no better than their own children which can be both frightening to the children at the time and hilarious as an anecdote - much later. For sure those girls will think long and hard about fighting in the car again. That would not be such a bad thing in the long run don't you think?

[texanwitch]

43. At that age the girls were able to walk home themselves.

We walked, rode bikes and took the bus by ourselves starting at the age of 8.

We learned how to get around without parents.

I feel really sorry for the kids today.

We went to the neighborhood movie theater by ourselves.

There were bad people around back then.

I would hate to be a kid today.

[SammyWinstonJack]

50. If we wanted to go ANYWHERE, we WALKED! My parents weren't 'chauffeurs' to use their term.

:silly:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

52. She left the kids about 15-20 minutes by car from where they live. I live in Westchester.

Walking in Westchester can be difficult. Not many sidewalks and there are some narrow roads. I had to chauffeur my sons most everywhere.

[msanthrope]

74. I grew up there, too--there's NO WAY these kids would have been

able to walk home, (over MAJOR highways) and public transportation would have been tricky at best.

It's possible that the kids might have been able to eventually figure out the bus, with transfers, or gone to the train station and figured out how to get close, but that's NOT the kind of thing you would expect a 10 year-old to figure out on the fly.

I know exactly where she dropped them off, and frankly, the 10 year old must have been in some distress for the Good Samaritan to intervene....

[pnwmom]

89. How do you know these girls had never taken a bus home before? I had taken

my daughter on bus trips by this age, so she would start to know how to do it herself.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

104. What do you think the odds are that their lawyer mom had them take buses? Also, I don't

think they would have had the money to take the Bee Line or Metro North.

[pnwmom]

159. None of us know how much money the girls had, and that's just an

assumption about the bus.

Where I live, professionals do teach their children how to take the bus. It's a life skill.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

184. The woman is a partner with Kaye Scholer (one of the largest law firms in NY), and most

likely had her children raised by nannies. I have been indirectly part of this culture through my inlaws.

No one who is middle, upper middle class and wealthy here uses the buses. The buses are convoluted and ridiculously slow. They have many lines stopping at the same stops but eventually go to different destinations. The life skill they would learn is that mass transit in Westchester is more of a deterrent and cars are the way to go. Until the kids drive on their own or have older friends to drive them, the parents are the most practical means of transportation.

I have lived here for 21 years now and know only 2 people who have used the buses. Both students going to college near White Plains. The ride on the bus is about 1 3/4 hrs as opposed to a half hour car ride.

Unless you personally know where the mother left those kids (I will repeat, it is desolate there on a Sunday night) and what it would take for them to go home, you have no idea what a horrid thing she did when she deserted them.

I don't believe the children should be taken away and I don't believe there should be criminal prosecution. I just hope that this was a wake up call to her.

[pnwmom]

199. We do agree on one thing. Ordering her not to have any contact with

her daughters, as if she is a danger to them, made no sense.

I never did what she did and I never will (my youngest now has his license!) But it seems to me that the police/judiciary reaction was very much out of proportion to the behavior. Think of all the poor kids wandering around parts of Manhattan by themselves. No one's arresting their parents for leaving them outside on the streets.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

210. Update: The Judge Is Allowing Her Contact With Her Girls.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090422/ap_on_re_us/us_fed_up_mom_9

[pnwmom]

224. Good. So the question is why the decision was ever made in the first place. n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

100. And my guess is that they didn't have any money for a bus or train. The train station

in White Plains isn't all that close to that intersection although it would take them to Scarsdale. As you said, bus service is iffy. I grew up mostly in NYC and if my mom did that to me, it wouldn't have been a problem at all if I had some cash on me.

For all intensive purposes, their mother deserted them and thank goodness that person was there to help. I want to add that I have boys and was concerned when they were younger about sexual predators and here she has two daughters and she did that? The girls shouldn't be taken away from her but I think parenting classes are in order.

[Lorien]

88. Yep. I think our mom dumped us a few times too

we would walk or bike miles from home in all kinds of weather. I can recall that there was a shopping area about three miles from our house that I would bike to about every week when I was 10 or 11. "Latchkey kids" (and we were some) back then were expected to walk to the grocery store, buy the food and prepare dinner themselves by age 12 along with just about every other domestic chore. I don't think that there were fewer threats to us then; I just think that there was a lot less reporting of the bad stuff that happened to kids at that time.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

51. I know exactly where she left them and although bustling during the week and weekends, on a Sunday

night, it would be relatively deserted. I know how it feels to be at wits ends with your kids, but not that far.

[seabeyond]

54. i would never do it, but i am over protective. we miss bus in middle school, we walk

it was at least three miles... more 5 miles. and half of it didnt have adaquit sidewalk. was alway nice once we got into the part of town that had the sidewalks and lights.

again, i say, not something i would do, but there is a lot i dont do with my kids, other parents dont have problems with, and i dont want them arrested or kids takin away.

i am just remembering my youth, and not seeing this as a police situation

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

146. I grew up both on Long Island and NYC and had sidewalks. I used to walk to and from

elementary school on LI and would also walk distances to friends houses. We then returned to NYC (Queens - I was born there) and transportation, well lit streets and sidewalks were wonderful. My first middle school was a short bus ride away (into a different borough) and frankly at 11, I wouldn't have had a clue how to come home from there under my own steam. By the age of 10 I biked everywhere or walked and at 12, moved to a more convenient area of Queens where there were buses to major shopping areas and to 2 different train lines into Manhattan. By the time I was 14 I traveled into Manhattan all the time.

I know what it's like growing up in the city and it is a far cry from here in Westchester. I've been a very protective parent too and have only given the responsibility to walk to certain places at the right stages of their maturity levels. To friends' houses, the playground and pool in my development, then to the surrounding streets and then to a shopping center that's about 5 minutes here by car. Walking where I live can be very dangerous with hidden driveways, no sidewalks, narrow roads with lots of turns. The middle school is about 12 minutes from here by car and would be a hairy walk home as would have been the elementary school which is about 7 minutes from here by car. The high school, although 10 minutes away has a better route and although a long walk, a relatively safe one. One of the reasons why I decided to be a work at home Mom was to make sure that I was here if they needed me and I cannot count the times they missed their buses to school and I had to drive them.

[msanthrope]

75. You are right--Sunday night, it would be deserted. n/t

[timtom]

53. Around 1950

I was 9 and my girl cousin was 7 or 8. Our dads were having a pleasant beer in downtown Savannah in a tavern. We went outside and walked down to the river's edge for a quick look. When we returned to the tavern several minutes later, our dads had disappeared. They had panicked, we found out later.

We started walking and somehow got a ride with a kind soul who delivered us to her home address, some 10 miles away.

We were very fortunate.

In fact, when I was in kindergarten, my mother was late in picking me up. I had seen sailors hitch-hiking (this was during WWII), so I decided to try it myself. A kindly soul picked me up and gave me a ride home (I knew my address then, as I remember it now). My mom was distraught, but relieved.

[Doremus]

55. 'Child endangerment' in upper scale areas; status quo in inner cities

Everyday probably hundreds of school districts across the country require students to walk through neighborhoods far worse than the one in the OP.

The double standards in our society are sickening.

[Dappleganger]

56. Good point.

10 is awfully young, though--and if the kids isn't familiar with walking home then that's a clear lack of judgment on her part. Child endangerment--not so sure about that.

[msanthrope]

77. 20 minutes away from her home by car. And near impossible, on

a Sunday night, for the kid to have used public transportation to get home (would have taken hours, transfers, etc...)

It's not like Mom dropped the kids off and they had a reasonable shot of getting home....

[pnwmom]

90. The mother dropped them off, then circled the block to pick them up again.

She apparently found the 12 year old right away, and if the 10 year old had stayed put and not been lured into the ice cream store, the mother would have found her, too. Instead, she circled the block several more times, still looking, then called the police.

[msanthrope]

103. The Mom drove home. Then called the cops. Please read the article

There's nothing to indicate that the Mom 'circled the block.'

[pnwmom]

160. You seem to have missed paragraph 2 of the 2nd article.

"Primoff allegedly circled the block a few times, lost sight of the 10- and 12-year-old, and then drove to her multi-million dollar home in Scarsdale."

Since we know she DID pick up the 12 year old, it was probably one of the times she circled the block. She could have picked up the 10 year old too, if the child hadn't disappeared with the G.S.

[LisaL]

187. A few of the articles I've read said 12 years old run after the car

and was allowed back in. Leaving the 10 years old alone.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/nyregion/23towns.html?ref=nyregion

[pnwmom]

62. Excellent point. n/t

[Raineyb]

144. It certainly explains the overly entitled attitudes of some kids from certain areas as well

Apparently, they're entitled to be driven around until such time as when they're entitled to get a license and a vehicle so that they may never have to suffer the indignity of riding mass transit or worse -walking.

Snookums is just too precious none of that walking like the proletariat for my precious! Oh no! :eyes:

Someone remind me of this story the next time some Repuke decides to shit all over NYC. At least our children know how to find their way home and stay away from strange dudes luring them into ice cream shops.

Regards

[marshall]

57. Kids vs. Career, it's hard to juggle both

I feel for the woman, being in a highly stressful job AND trying to raise two kids. But she should hire a nanny if she can't handle the homelife--the kids shouldn't suffer.

[pnwmom]

63. This was on a Sunday. I fail to see what this has to do with a career.

Plenty of at home mothers have probably done the same thing.

[marshall]

69. A job like hers isn't a 9 to 5 job

Even if she's not working in the office nights and weekends I'm sure she brings work (and the stress of work) home with her.

Hopefully she will regroup after this situation, get some counseling (probably court mandated) and find some help.

[pnwmom]

72. You don't know what her hours are or anything besides that she's a lawyer.

I can't believe you're blaming this on a career.

[TBF]

110. No, she would probably suck with or without the career. BTW, a partner at Kaye Scholer

is not working 9-5, and her average income is not minimum wage. She has plenty of money for childcare, she's just cheap.

[pnwmom]

164. She's just cheap? Or maybe she was enjoying time with her

daughters, until their bickering got out of control?

[marshall]

136. It's not about blame, it's about finding a reason

She's got to nail that down in order to fix whatever her problem is.

I don't think women (or men) having high stress jobs is a preclusion to being a good parent.

[msanthrope]

78. If she's living in Scarsdale, she's got money for 'help.'

I grew up very close to White Plains. Anybody living in a 2m house in Scarsdale has the money for live-in help.

In Scarsdale, people have weekend nannies to relieve the regular nannies and 'tutors' so that parents don't have to help their kids with the homework...

It's an over-privileged area. These kids were probably starved for parental attention--

Speaking of which--where's the DAD????

[Dappleganger]

123. You wouldn't say that if she were a man.

Just pointing out the obvious. Most women juggle their careers and home life quite well. There is nothing in the article to indicate there was a problem with that. If you're going to be sympathetic, at least make it a legitimate concern like being a parent in general.

[marshall]

140. Gender makes no difference to me

I do get your point though.

I'm a single father (and sole parent) of a toddler. I quit a highly stressful job to take a lower paying less stressful job so that I have more time to take care of my son.

[Dappleganger]

142. Kudos to you

Being a parent is the toughest job in the world, with the potential for the greatest reward. :)

[gabby garcia]

60. The mom is an idiot and deserves

whatever she gets. She obviously didn't even raise her girls to stay together in a situation like that. As the mother of 2 girls ages 12 and 10 (yeah - exactly) my 12 year old would NEVER EVER leave her sister on a street alone no matter how upset or mad she was - of course I would NEVER kick them out of the car either and I'm pretty sure I've felt as overwhelmed, stressed out and po'd at arguing kids as anyone could ever feel. I also don't own a multi -million dollar home or work at a law firm - maybe life is just tougher for her.
:eyes:

[pnwmom]

65. Have your girls never done anything they were raised not to do?

Good for them. I hope you can still say that when they're adults.

In the meantime, you might want to start thinking about how you're going to get them ready for the freedom that a driver's license will entail -- and then college, if that's in their future. My daughter often told me that the kids who had most trouble with the freedom at college were the ones whose parents had been most protective in high school.

[gabby garcia]

79. actually I trust them greatly and they have not only

been raised to be responsible and with freedoms appropriate for their age and sensibilities - they walk the walk as well. Of course they make mistakes but as I said before my older girl would NOT leave her younger sister alone as this girl did. My younger girl is smart enough that she probably would be able to navigate her way home - but that's harder to say - she's never been in the situation of being upset and abandoned by her mom and her sister - it sounds like it was a relatively traumatic situation for this girl. The article states it was evening and she wandered ALONE for 40 minutes - we don't know when she went into the ice cream store to contact police or how long they waited before doing so. I'm just happy it was a GS and not predator that found her.

[havocmom]

66. At some point, the 10 year old is accountable for at least some of her behavior

She is legally an adult at 18. She is more than half way there, so she should have some judgment and responsibility for her own actions. She did not stay with her sister. She went off with a stranger for ice cream. Since the other girl didn't do that crap, perhaps they both WERE raised to stay together but that free will thing can get in the way of life, can't it?

At 10, millions of kids are navigating their way home all the time. But 10 year-olds who have everything done for them won't develop critical thinking skills that will serve them their whole lives. They will NEVER be safe then.

[pnwmom]

68. When my son was 7,

he was playing across the street with his friend when he decided to go home. Except that he changed his mind when he got to our driveway and decided to go get a Slurpy instead. (For some reason, he had a couple of dollars in his pocket.) A half hour later, still thinking he was at the friend's house, I got a phone call from another friend's father. Did I know my 7 year old was two miles away at the 7-11 buying a Slurpy? This father was on his way somewhere else, and he hadn't thought he should just put my son in his car, but he wanted me to know where my son was. So I got in my car and headed out and found my son already 3/4 of the way home.

I hadn't known that my 7 year old knew the way to the nearest shopping center, but he did -- when it mattered! I made it very clear to him that he wasn't ever to pull something like that again, and he didn't. He just found other things to do over the years that helped put the gray in my hair!

Anyway, having had 3 kids, I have trouble imagining that these girls really didn't know the way home. Besides, the mother was able to pick up the 12 year old. She probably would have picked up the 10 year old too, if she hadn't been inside the ice cream shop.

[msanthrope]

80. You are assuming the 12 year old didn't walk off....

Remember, the girls were fighting, so it's entirely possible that when their genius of a mother kicked them both out, and the 12 year old ditched the 10 year old.

Why would the 12 year old have better protective instincts than the mother???

[havocmom]

83. 12 year old stayed on route and visible

10 year old wandered off with a stranger for ice cream.

10 year old should know better by that age.

Actions, consequences. I hope this story gets discussed at millions of tables in America, with attention being paid to the dangers of wandering off with the first person who stops and offers a treat.

[msanthrope]

93. And there's the rub...you cannot expect a 10 year old to act like a 12 year old.

They aren't fungible.


If the 10 year old doesn't know better it's probably because of her idiot parents.....

[Raineyb]

143. I certainly expect a 10 year old to know better than to run off into some

ice cream shop with a stranger.

Regards

[pnwmom]

166. Absolutely. n/t

[LostinVA]

214. Oh, they are so

[texanwitch]

149. You ar e so right.

On my block there is a 27 year old man who never had to do anything for himself.

His parents recently died in a car accident.

He lived at home, never worked and is lost.

He as money but never learned to pay a bill.

He is having to grow up very fast.

I had show him how to walk to the grocery and bank, also how to bike there.

The kid is normal but was kept a baby.

Reading this story reminded me of this 27 year old baby.

Kids have to learn now to be an adult, you start when they are small.

[olegramps]

67. Times have changed.

My wife would take a bus 20 miles across town, transfer twice, to babysit her niece. She was ten years old. I took care of my two younger brothers while my mom was in the hospital for over three months when I was 12 years old. My dad was a trucker and on the road for months at a time. He would send money home and I would pay the bills and do the shopping. The neighbors also helped us out. I would walk them to school and the bus driver agreed to pick me up on the corner since I was in Junior High.

[pnwmom]

70. As someone else pointed out, though,

urban kids today still often have a lot more freedom than kids in the suburbs.

And I wonder if things are really that much more dangerous today, or if it's only a matter of public perception of danger.

[NeedleCast]

71. I don't know the White Plains area

but unless it's a highly dangerous area, this is different from leaving your kids at the mall...how?

[msanthrope]

87. Do you leave your kid without a cell, money, or plan to get home?

No, you wouldn't. Your kid would be briefed, would understand where they were, what to do in case of a change of plans, etc...

The area in question is not 'bad', but it is fairly deserted on a Sunday evening, and near impossible for a 10 year old to figure out the public tansportation on the fly.

The 10-year old had no reasonable chance of getting home alone. Also, in White Plains, in malls such as the Galleria, 10 year olds are NOT allowed to wander about unsupervised.

[pnwmom]

92. How do you know the girls had no cell phones, money, or experience

getting home? How do you know, for example, they couldn't have gone into the mall together and called their dad or a friend's house?

[msanthrope]

97. They weren't near a mall. The Mom drove HOME!!!!! She didn't stick around and look!!!

They were on a street that has small shops, some offices, most of which would have been closed on a Sunday evening, etc. Where the Mom left them would have been fairly deserted that time on a Sunday night, and would not have been close to public transport that would have been useful to them.

If the girls had cell phones, the Mom would have called and met up with the 10 year old, right????

But what did the Mom do--- read the article--the MOM called cops from her HOUSE....that's 20 minutes away by car. Which means the Mom left the area and went home. HOME.

She didn't stick around and call the cops from there...she went back to her 2mil house in Scarsdale, and THEN called the cops.

[pnwmom]

156. She drove home AFTER she circled the block several times.

And how does it take 20 minutes to drive 3 miles?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

114. The fact is that they didn't walk blocks to the Galleria and didn't have the where with all to

solve their problem. It's almost as if you're apologizing for the mother's actions. To have DESERTED them at a deserted location is inexcusable. She drove home to Scarsdale. Also, here is a high powered attorney Mom, do you honestly believe that she taught them how to use the iffy "mass transit"? The Bee Line is very confusing and there are long times between pick-ups.

[NeedleCast]

226. Yeah, all the time when I was a kid

I don't have kids of my own but when I was a kid we ranged for miles around our neighborhood on our bikes, explored big ass storm drains, ran around through construction yards...because we were kids. None of us ever died or even got seriously injured. And, contrary to the nannies of today, we were the norm, not the exception.

It's no wonder kids seem so dependant on others much later into their lives these days. Parents coddle them and wrap them in bubble wrap so their precious snowflake never gets a boo-boo or has a moment of fear or doubt.

Reading this thread you'd think the mom left these kids in the Nevada desert at night with rattle snake bait tied to them.

[foo_bar]

109. it was the mall

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en-US&q=S+Broadway+%26+E+Post+Rd,+White+Plains,+Westchester,+New+York+10601&sll=44.390617,-91.51062&sspn=0.004523,0.011179&ie=UTF8&cd=2&geocode=FRUTcgIdcnma-w&split=0&ll=41.028478,-73.786325&spn=0.038202,0.089436&z=14&iwloc=A (outdoor mall/"shopping center" with a "Toys R Us", a block from the Westchester mall, two blocks from the Galleria)

It's hard to picture this story happening in NYC for some reason, not the story itself (although there's better public transit, and three miles is how far one typically travels to school, e.g. 200th to 231st) so much as the prosecution part, probably because there's no shortage of truly hair-raising stories of parental abuse and neglect.

[msanthrope]

132. No, it wasn't "the Mall." It's not NYC. It's Westchester county.

City blocks in westchester aren't measured in the same manner as NYC. It's not comparable.

YOu do realize that from where the girl was dropped off, neither of the two malls you mentioned were even visible?

And is your theory that there mere presence of a Mall makes it safe, or justifies the mother leaving the jurisdiction, going home, and then calling the cops?

[foo_bar]

170. your response is a little baffling, but here goes

It's not NYC. It's Westchester county.

Agreed; I wrote "It's hard to picture this story happening in NYC for some reason", NYC being this tiny burg orbiting Westchester.

City blocks in westchester aren't measured in the same manner as NYC. It's not comparable.

Did I make a comparison between westchester city blocks and NYC ones? I wrote "e.g. 200th to 231st"; "e.g.," is an abbreviation for the Latin equivalent of "for example" ("exempli gratia"), 200th to 231st is the distance I traveled to school as a 12 year old, and I qualified that travel as employing better light rail than can be obtained in Westchester 20 minutes away.

YOu do realize that from where the girl was dropped off, neither of the two malls you mentioned were even visible?

Did you mean "the girls", or are you reading a different article entirely? From the OP:

She left them <note the plural direct object> at Post Road and South Broadway, an area of shops and offices 3 miles from their home, then drove off, the police report said.

From Google:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en-US&q=S+Broadway+%26+E+Post+Rd,+White+Plains,+Westchester,+New+York+10601&sll=44.390617,-91.51062&sspn=0.004523,0.011179&ie=UTF8&cd=2&geocode=FRUTcgIdcnma-w&split=0&ll=41.028478,-73.786325&spn=0.038202,0.089436&z=14&iwloc=A

It's an outdoor mall sandwiched between two indoor ones.

And is your theory that there mere presence of a Mall makes it safe, or justifies the mother leaving the jurisdiction, going home, and then calling the cops?

I dunno, we didn't really get that far. It was probably a shitty thing to do, based on the limited information we have to base our prejudices on, but it's hard to discern if the journalistic hook is a) rich woman being arrested, period or b) children of privilege being exposed to, essentially, daily life, and/or the resulting "fish out of water" tale re: their inability to cope. I'm probably spoiled because I rode the A train alone when I was 8, so if there's an abuse/neglect story from my point of view it's the mother's apparent failure to teach her kids not to talk to strangers.

[pnwmom]

200. When the mother left "the jurisdiction" it was no doubt because she hadn't

been able to find the girl by driving around the block, so she drove home to see if she could find her daughter on the way. When she wasn't anywhere en route, and she wasn't home either, the mom called the police.

[ShortnFiery]

76. I can understand "the feeling" but have not given over to it.

:blush:

[Arkansas Granny]

91. It sounds as though details are lacking on this story, so until the whole story

is known, I will withhold final judgment on this woman. However, as a mother of four, I can fully understand putting the girls out of the car, circling the block and then picking them back up as a way of making a point, if that is, in fact, what happened. My opinion of her action would be much different if I found out that she had dumped the kids out in a strange neighborhood and expected them to find their way home without incident.

The bothersome part, to me, is that the girls either hadn't been taught how to act if they ever found themselves alone for any reason or they disregarded what they had been taught. First of all, they should never have separated from each other. Secondly, the younger girl should have known better than to accompany a stranger anywhere. For that matter, the "good Samaritan" should have known better than to take a stange child anywhere. He/she should have notified authorities immediately if the child was believed to have been abandoned.

At any rate, I would like to know more about this before jumping to any conclusions.

[pnwmom]

94. The Good Samaritan blew it, IMHO.

When I find a lost child, I call for help -- I don't move the child. I do everything I can to make sure the child stays put until the parent can get there.

[msanthrope]

101. The mom DROVE HOME. READ THE ARTICLE.....

Where the Good Samaritan took her (an open store with a phone!) is of no moment....

Because the Mom DROVE HOME.

[pnwmom]

153. She drove home after circling the block several times and not finding

her daughter where she expected to find her. Probably was hoping to find her daughter en route somewhere. When she didn't, she called police.

No G.S. should be bringing children into ice cream parlors. This 10 year old could have been told to "stay right here, I'm going to help you" while the G.S. went into the store and called police. Or the G.S. could have hailed a passer-by and asked for help. (Assuming the G.S. lacked a cell phone, which would have been the best option.)

[TBF]

112. You sure want to blame the good samaritan. Interesting. Have you done this to your kids?

Maybe the good samaritan didn't have a cell phone - there are people without them.

[pnwmom]

154. I've never even come close -- but I can recall

the threat being made to my siblings and me (not the execution).

I speak as someone who has encountered truly lost children several times in my life. I don't think the G.S. did the right thing. It would have been better for him or her to leave the child where she could be found while the G.S. obtained help.

If this had been a 2 year old, then the situation would have been different. A G.S. shouldn't let a 2 year old stand on the sidewalk while a G.S. runs somewhere to call the police. But this was a 10 year old.

[LisaL]

192. I fail to see why you are trying to blame the person who

got help for this child. Maybe the person didn't have the cell phone, and didn't want to leave alone the child who is described as upset or crying. There is also no information given that the mother was circling the block at the same time the good samaritan took the child into the store.

[pnwmom]

201. Because the Good Samaritan made a mistake. S/he should not have

encouraged the child to leave the place where her mother would be looking for her. She could have waited till the child calmed down, then said: "I'm going to get you some help. Stay here and look out for your mother and I'll be right back with an ice cream cone. What flavor do you like?"

[LisaL]

220. Maybe that good samaritan didn't think it was a good idea

for the child to "stay there and look out for the mother" since the mother left the child and drove away.

[pnwmom]

223. You're saying that the G.S. took it upon herself to make it impossible

for the child to be found? And you would justify that? Wow.

[supernova]

127. Agree the girls displayed poor coping skills

at 10 and 12, they should know how to handle themselves, even in an unfamilar place. And three miles from their home should not be unfamiliar to them.

I don't think the mom did a terrible thing here.

Most of us here have wandered far afield from home and learned to find our way back and it taught us a thing or two. The thing with going off with a stranger for ice cream?!? That family needs to revisit Life Skills 101.

edit; I don't blame the girls for displaying poor judgement here, but it is entirely possible that they have been too coddled and the sudden (seeming) wish for the mother for them to grow up by dumping them out, perhaps that was too big a jump. However, now they know what their baseline is, they can go back and learn some down to earth survival skills, #1 being: Don't Panic.

edit2: My parent always when we were out on public told us what to do in the event that we would get separated, however unlikely. IOW, we talked, A LOT about what to do if we found ourselves on our own. It's not always being dumped by the side of the road by an angry parent pushed to the brink.

[LostinVA]

216. We were taught when quite young about getting lost

I mean, Kindergarten age. And, my mom told us all about "stranger danger," and this was the early 70's.

The mom did NOT deserve to eb arrested for this. Ridiculous.

[LostinVA]

215. Yup

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. 3 miles? BFD.

Kids need both to have better independent coping skills as well as to understand the consequences of their actions.

This is from Richard Branson's autobiography;

Breaking Free: Branson’s Early Years
“I was never, ever interested in becoming a businessman or an entrepreneur,” says Richard Branson. At 56, despite his intentions, Branson has become one of the most successful and eccentric billionaires of the 20th century. He is the man behind one of the most recognizable brands in history and is sitting on an estimated fortune of $3.2 billion.

Born in 1950 in Surrey, England, to happily married parents Ted and Eve, Branson recalls a childhood filled with nothing but love and encouragement. Ted was a lawyer who had relunctantly set aside his passion for archaeology at the request of his father to follow in the family footsteps. Eve was an airline hostess who originally pretended to be a man in order to become a pilot instructor. Together, the two ingrained within Branson a sense of hard work and the need to be financially successful. <snip>

Branson’s parents took extreme measures to encourage their children’s independence. While driving home one day when Branson was just four years old, his mother made him get out of the car miles before they had reached the house and insisted that he find his own way home. Not surprisingly, Branson got lost. But, it was a lesson he would never forget.

Soon, Branson and his siblings began setting challenges for themselves. One Christmas holiday, Branson bet his Aunt Joyce ten shillings that he would be able to swim by the end of the two weeks. He spent hours in the ocean each day practicing but still could not keep himself afloat. Finally, as the family was leaving on the last day, Branson made his father stop the car so that he could have one last chance at swimming. He ran to the ocean, pulled off all his clothes and despite the huge waves, managed to swim a circle. He had won his ten shillings.

[msanthrope]

98. 3 miles as the crow flies--about 20 minutes in a car. Over highways, etc.

It's not a simple 3 mile walk, at all.

BTW, the Mom drove off and went home.

[lumberjack_jeff]

116. I'm not familiar with the area.

"three miles from home" usually implies traveling distance, and that is how I interpreted the OP.

When I look at the differences between what my dad was able to do at age 10, compared to what I was able to do, compared to what my kids were able to do... It won't be too many generations before kids are confined to their rooms because the kitchen is too scary of a place for children to be... and outside?! OMG! I'm getting the vapors at simply contemplating the thought!

[msanthrope]

126. It's NYC suburb..and distance is pretty meaningless because

it's all about access points. The roads are made for cars, not walkers.

And public transport to/from Scarsdale is made for the rich who can take the train to NYC, and the maids, who take the bus.

Which wouldn't be accessible to the kid on a Sunday evening, from White Plains....

Hey--I used to take NYC subway to school at age 10. Different time, prepared kid.

[gabby garcia]

105. Do you have kids?

I'm assuming you do and that you have done just this - left your 4 year old miles away from home to find their way alone. Now this is what you purport to be a proper and sensible way to raise and treat a child, correct?
Tell me you have done this.
Please.

[lumberjack_jeff]

111. Yup. I'm Richard Branson's dad.

The story failed to tell that Morgan Fairchild is his mom. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[seabeyond]

125. man, if i could get every parent to raise kids as i see is proper and sensible....

there is tons of unproper and unsensible going on with parent/child relationships today.

we dont arrest
we dont take away the kids.

as i said in another post, not what i would ever ever do with my kids, but then i do a lot of things, or dont, that others do.

[WI_DEM]

122. From some responses I see it appears that this mom is being given a pass by some folks here

because she's a wealthy lawyer who lives in a nice area. But the bottom line is that she forced her kids out of the car about three miles from where they live and drove off. Did she tell them that she would circle around and eventually pick them up? probably not. The older girl apparently ran after her mom while the ten year old was more emotional and must have walked about. If this was some minimum wage mom letting her kids out of the car three miles from there house in some not so upscale area would it have made a difference? Poor judgement in my opinion on the mom's part.

[northzax]

133. but do we criminalize poor judgement?

and yes, the setting in which it happened matters. So would the season (in winter, this would be a completely different thing, and cruel) context matters. Obviously the older daughter was in control enough to be able to address the situation, the younger one needs some serious survival skills.

[msanthrope]

137. Yes. As a society, we do criminalize Some poor judgment.

Which is why you go to jail for getting drunk and driving.

But not for your choice in spouses.

[pnwmom]

168. Poor judgment? Probably. But are the kids better off being separated from

their mother now while she goes through criminal charges? I sincerely doubt it.

I'm not "giving her a pass" because she's a wealthy lawyer or because of where she lives. (Although I think the upscale area actually worked against her. Kids in urban and/or poorer areas are often left to fend for themselves.)

I'm holding back on judging her because we don't know enough of the circumstances, and because she says she was circling the block, looking for that child -- and she clearly DID find the other one (the police didn't say how, exactly).

And I'm holding back because I think ages 10-12 is a point at which children should be fairly competent in public. She knows her own children -- we don't know them at all.

[Silent3]

178. I don't care if she's wealthy or not, and "nice area" only enters into this...

...to the extent that being alone in the area in question is a risk. "Nice areas" do tend to be lower in crime than less-nice places. Then again, our culture tends to over-emphasize risk even in supposedly "dangerous" areas. Realistic concerns about actual risks are typically replaced by emotionally-driven "what if?" imaginings of the worst things that might possibly happen.

[Bill McBlueState]

124. that's pretty irresponsible

but at least she didn't go Susan Smith on them.

[ensho]

134. I threatened to put my oldest son out of the car on a country road

was not going to take his backtalk another minute.

since I was a mother who did what I threatened to do, he knew I meant it and shut up.

yes, I would have put him out. he could have walked the mile or so home or waited for my return.

I also put a lover out of my van in the middle of Miami rush hour traffic because of his mouth.

he had to find a way home which was 150 miles away.

[supernova]

138. LOL!

"I also put a lover out of my van in the middle of Miami rush hour traffic because of his mouth."


:applause:

[Ilsa]

139. This doesn't sound like the right time or place for that kind of

treatment. Maybe letting them out closer to home would have safely made the point to the girls.

But I've considered and threatened letting my 9 year old out for arguing with me in the car, but only in our neighborhood.

[ejpoeta]

181. i know my kids drive me batty, but i don't think i've ever considered kicking them out of the car.

but then again, i know the things that tend to work. No TV... no nintendo ds.... and my daughter knows i mean it when i say it. ashley is harder since she is only 3, but i would never consider making a 3 year old walk home.

[lies and propaganda]

148. Imagine if they w ere kidnapped, raped, killed..

I dont think it would seem like a genius parenting move then.

But it was an 'upper crust' town so stuff like that doesnt happen there, right?

[Silent3]

152. Obviously, the only way to be a good parent...

...is to imagine the worst possible thing that could happen in any situation, no matter how extremely unlikely, and act accordingly, in firm (but completely factually unfounded) belief that the world today is more dangerous than it has ever, ever been.

What if the mother took her girls to soccer practice and the coach went crazy and the girls were kidnapped, raped and killed?

What if she gave them cell phones for safety, but the rechargeable batteries caught on fire and the girls burned to death?

What if she kept the girls home on the day a meteor crashed into the house?

What if... what if... :eyes:

[northzax]

175. Heck, statistically

They're a lot more likely to be raped by Uncle Bob or grandpa than some stranger.

[seabeyond]

176. true that. all the things we read, readily available with internet and 24 hr news

they have to fill in the time somehow so all the stories we never knew, each and every one is provided for us.

yes, it is hard to stay rational today with all the info.

i am continually having to tell myself, as a parent, that what i read is not indicative of the reality we live so i am not too much over protective, lol lol or more overprotective than what i am.

i am continually having to remind myself what it was like in my day, what i was able to do and the good in that life, so i can give my children that foundation too.

[CatsDogsBabies]

150. Do you think the girls are more traumatized from being out on the sidewalk

or from being legally barred from seeing their mother? Perhaps it wasn't the best thing for the mother to do, but I wouldn't put it at the level of endangerment. I see kids, even ones younger than that, playing outside, riding bikes and so on without parental supervision. I walked all kinds of places when I was a kid. People responding here keep insisting that the mother just dumped the kids and drove home, but the article clearly states that something happened after the mother told the kids to get out of the car and before she drove home: the 12 year old managed to get back in the car (so the mother just didn't drive off). I have to say my mother probably would have scolded me for going with a stranger to an ice cream shop. We really don't know all the details, but I bet those girls (and their mother) are all pretty traumatized by having their mother in jail. I think that is far too extreme - the kids aren't that young.

[pnwmom]

169. I agree. The aftermath of this is no doubt more traumatizing

than the initial event.

[Mother Of Four]

155. Read both articles.

In the second, it states she found her 12 year old. Which she wouldn't have been able to do unless she circled back like she said she did. That being said....

I have four kiddos...12g 14g 16b 18b

You can believe that they have had their fair share of fighting in the car.

If it's on the way TO somewhere, we turn the car around and go home.
If it's on the way BACK from somewhere, they get chores when we get to the house. No nice namby pamby chores, things like "Hey guess what, you get to do Dads chore of raking the dog poo!" Or "Know what, you can do my chore of scrubbing all the tubs and toilets!" The fussing would commence, then they would get the reply of "I don't care if we just did it (yesterday, day before)...you WILL do it again today."

Cleaning out the fridge and bleaching it has been used, cleaning the shed, organizing the storage cabinets, snaking the sinks (Heheh THAT one was fun for me to watch as I talked them through it)

I have never put my kids out of the car, for more than the safety issue. Knowing MY kids, they would think it was a blast and play the entire way home. :banghead:

Couple of other things my kiddos have learned. Never ever ever come to me and say "I'm Boorreeeeed!" I will find you something to do, and with four kids + pets there is lots we can clean. People who come to my house go :wow: when my children come to me and No kidding say "Mama, I have nothing fun and entertaining to do. Do you have any suggestions?" They know it's not in my job description to keep them entertained. That ended with first grade.

They don't act up in public, because I don't care if we are waiting in line at a store- I'll make my apologies to the clerk and leave. Sitting at a restaurant, even if only 1/3 way through the meal. Pack it up and leave. If there is one thing I can't stand, is people letting their precious little snoogie oogums run wild or screaming in a store/eatery.

They don't tug my sleeve and say "Can I have this?" ...instead they ask for it when it's reasonable and at home so I can check our budget. Ask me in the store, and the answer will always be no. Or they ask, like when I go grocery shopping etc and they come along, before we ever go inside- "Mama, think we can get a treat today?" Under those circumstances, many times they'll get a yes unless we are totally broke.

I rarely have to discipline them, they constantly get compliments of how polite they are and how bright.

I think much of this could have been avoided (The leaving the kids issue) if the Mother had taught her kids from a young age (I started when my oldest was 4, old enough to understand consequences fully) that if you act in a bad way, bad things happen. Not dangerous things, bad things. For example, "Oh, I'm so sorry you're too tired to behave. We'll go home right now and you get a nap." was one I used on all mine when they were little.

[LisaL]

189. Apparently 12 years old run after the car and was allowed back in.

"On Wednesday, people in Scarsdale had a view, usually not charitable, of Ms. Primoff’s decision to leave her daughters about three miles from their home.

The 12-year-old chased the car and got back in. The 10-year-old was left alone and was eventually comforted by a passer-by who bought her an ice cream and contacted the police."


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/nyregion/23towns.html?ref=nyregion

[flvegan]

165. I was a latchkey kid from the time I was 9.

This would have been no big deal to me. 3 miles? Whatever.

[Raineyb]

185. Same here

:shrug:

Seriously I don't see why this was a matter for the police. Although someone should tell that woman she's not doing a good job raising her kids. Her 10 year old doesn't know not to run off with strangers. She should have learned that a long time ago.

Regards

[Codeine]

167. Big Fucking Deal

They were old enough to cope.

Nation of fucking crybabies.

[Myrina]

172. .... they couldn't walk 3 miles???

Jebus, I used to walk 3 miles home from school when I was that age ... with a coupla pals & a stop at the Quickie Mart for some Bubble Yum and a soda, it was much better than being stuck on THE SCHOOL BUS.



:wtf:

[slackmaster]

179. My parents let my cousin walk four miles back to our house one time at about age 11

He was pitching a fit in the car and fighting with his two brothers. My dad asked if he'd rather walk home. He said "Yes", and dad pulled over and let him out.

I was a little worried he wouldn't be able to find the way, but he made it fine.

Oh, this was in about 1974.

[pnwmom]

180. The part I don't get:

these girls didn't listen to their mother when she told them to stop fighting.

So why did they comply when she ordered them out of the car?

My kids would have just sat there, looking at me like I was crazy. And I don't think I would have been able to physically wrestle two pre-teens out of the car -- at least not without attracting a whole lot of unwanted attention.

[Raineyb]

186. I know this sounds mean but

these kids don't sound too bright.

Regards

[taught_me_patience]

182. When I was 8, I gave my mom the finger from the backseat

She tossed me out of the car about a mile from our house. At first, I didn't know what to do, but then I just started walking home. She circled the block a couple of times and picked me up within 5-10 minutes. I certainly learned my lesson to never do that again!

[LisaL]

188. Yea and when I was 7, I walked miles and miles in 10 feet deep

snow, uphill, just to get to school. Back, the same, and also uphill.
:sarcasm:

[pnwmom]

204. When my son was 7,

he decided on his own to slip away from a friend's yard and to walk 2 miles for a Slurpy.

I only found out when I got a call from another neighbor who had spotted him at the 7-11.

By the time I caught up with him in my car, he was 3/4 of the way home.

[Evoman]

196. Ha...by the time I was 10, I had already witnessed a stabbing. I grew up in a bad neighbourhood.

If my mom had dropped me off in another city, I probably would have found my way home.

[Hekate]

202. That mom snapped. You know, this sounds like something my own Mom might have done...

She was a great believer in consequences, and she had no compunction about making kids walk several miles (such as the time I missed my bus to high school -- it was 3 miles).

So yeah, if my Mom had ever snapped hard enough she might have dumped me and my brother by the side of the road and told us to hoof it. And maybe have circled around the block to get us, or maybe not.

But that was many decades ago in a smaller world. I would never, ever do that to a kid in today's world. Even less than 20 years ago I went to get my teenaged daughter who ended up stranded on the wrong side of town -- I was furious at her and my inner Mom was griping that the kid would learn a lesson if she had to walk home, it was less than 5 miles and she'd broken every rule. I told my inner Mom to stfu and I drove over to where my 16 y.o. was huddled under a lamp post, scared for a change.

I'm not going to judge Madlyn Primoff: she's already in a world of hurt.

Hekate

[pnwmom]

205. And not just her -- imagine how upset her daughters must have been

when the mother, husband, and 12 year old arrived at the police station to pick up the 10 year old -- and all of them had to watch the mother get arrested and spend the night in jail. And then to have a judge issue a no contact order preventing the mother from seeing the children.

[Hekate]

206. The legal overreaction is going to be way more traumatic than the ejection from the car for being...

... too awful to bear.

As Mr. Bumble said in Oliver Twist, "The Law is an Ass."

Hekate

[carlyhippy]

212. With people kidnapping kids right off the streets, I would have never done this

I am glad the kids were found safe, how terrible it would have been if someone had abducted those poor girls.

I would have just turned up the radio in the front and tuned them out.

[LostinVA]

213. I don't see this as a huge deal

My Mom did this to me and my sister once, about a mile from home, on a rural road. My mother was far from abusive -- she doesn't even believe in corporal punishment, and she's a Pediatric nurse. But, we were being brats. I don't see what the emphasis is about teh mother in the article being an attorney. That has nothing to do with the story, nor the fact that she's at a prominent firm in the City.

I am curious how the two girls got separated, but that's it. I'm also curious if they had cell phones.

on edit: I was about 13 and my sister was about 9.

[mainer]

217. There were many times when I felt like doing this, too!

I can empathize with a mom who snaps. Parenthood is the hardest job in the world.