What will be the next unbeleiveable step in the torture story? I don't know but,

[Stuart G]

it gets more amazing every day with new interviews and memos released. So much of this reminds me of reading about Stalin and his secret prisons. :puke:

[ShortnFiery]

1. I can't believe that the Army that both me and my late father both love and served within allowed

our troops to TORTURE.

My father told me that the German soldiers frantically turned themselves into the Americans at the end of WWII because they were frightened that when the Russians arrived they would be taken their prisoner.

Perhaps stories are exaggerated some, but I heard repeatedly by my dad's friends year after year during his military reunions that The Americans held the moral high ground.

We should not ever lose our values due to fear.

[TayTay]

3. The civilians command failed our troops.

I also know a lot of good and true Americans who served this nation with honor.

The first betrayal here was of our troops. I will never forget that. It would have killed my own father to hear of this.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

11. One of my best friends

is a Lt. Col. in the Marine Corps Reserve. He's 45 years old now, son of a career Marine who was a fighter pilot in Vietnam, enlisted in the Marines on his eighteenth birthday, served in Desert Storm, and, to his undying credit, hates Chimpy Fucknuts even more than I do.

His reactions to all the torture news coming out have ranged from disbelief to screaming rage. Same with his other Marine buddies. They feel so betrayed that anyone in the military - and no Marines were involved in torture - would behave this way.

When they hear about murders committed in Iraq by young Marines, they're stunned and saddened.

Yes, this is a shaming of the highest order, and honorable military veterans have to be appalled at what was done by their compatriots.

There's a movie you want to see - "Standard Operating Procedure" - a documentary, brilliantly done by Errol Morris, about what really happened at Abu Ghraib. Janis Karpinski is one of the people who speaks on camera, as well as the some of the soldiers in those infamous photographs who were sent to the slammer for what they did.

You cannot miss this movie............................................................

[Ilsa]

22. If you have "nonbelievers" in your neck of the woods,

maybe you should say that in a LTTE of your local paper. Your post is most excellent, and a great reminder of who we are as a people.

[sammythecat]

39. History bears out your father's story.

After Stalingrad, for example, the Soviets took 91,000 German prisoners. More than 85,000 of them died.
The Germans had themselves to blame for that because of their own harsh and brutal treatment of Soviet prisoners.

That's one of the things that so outraged me when I learned we had implemented a program of torture and abuse. From that point on, our own troops were at much greater risk of suffering the same, or worse. This reason alone is enough that we should not rest until those responsible for this are held accountable, and the world knows that we, as a country, consider torture criminal and completely unacceptable.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

2. The tiny trickle gets heavier and heavier,

and pretty soon the whole dam gives way.

This is how it was during the Watergate era. I was a first-year law student when Senator Sam Ervin began his hearings. Can you imagine what a lesson that was for a first-year law student who was just learning about the Constitution? My classmates and I still talk about it, how lucky we were.



Of course, there weren't all the cable news shows - there was no cable news in 1972-73 - and no Internet(s) Tubes, but we devoured the newspapers every day and the hearings were televised, so between classes, we were in the bar down the street, watching in wonder as the whole thing snowballed.

It was like how things are happening now with the torture issue. Drip, drip, drip, and then WHOOOOOOOOOSH!

I wonder who the Alexander Butterfield will be in this latest historical adventure?

[Stuart G]

4. I watched the Watergate Hearings too...

I remember John Dean testifying that he heard Nixon offer money for silence and the Republicans did everything to destroy him..

The tape system was discovered, a year later the tapes were played and every word he testified to was verified.

I was dumbstruck then, what would be next, and that is how I feel now..

[Muttocracy]

5. Is that Sen. Inouye in the first photo? nt

[Stuart G]

7. Yes, he was part of the WAtergate Committee.. 2nd from front...

[Muttocracy]

9. very few senators left from then. nt

[Tangerine LaBamba]

8. It is ..........

The people on that committee were heroic. The courage they demonstrated - I still remember, with chills, their voice vote - was exemplary. There was a lot of crossing of party lines in that time, and it was a demonstration of representative democracy at its finest.

What a time that was ..............................

[Stuart G]

6. By the way, Alexander Butterfield was the person who exposed the taping system in White House. nt

[Tangerine LaBamba]

10. Well, duh.........

Why do you think I mentioned him, and posted his photo?

BIG duh...................

[Stuart G]

12. Please..do not be offended..I know you knew Butterfield but there are youngsters out there

that do not know that this was the key to bringing down Nixon, and Butterfield held that key that opened that door. These youngsters of age 30 to 40 do not know who Butterfield is...Do they know John Dean? the rest of the crowd......................

Richard Nixon

Justice system:
Archibald Cox
John Sirica
L. Patrick Gray

Journalists:
Carl Bernstein
Bob Woodward

Informants:
W. Mark Felt
aka "Deep Throat"


Conspirators:
John Dean
John Ehrlichman
H. R. Haldeman
E. Howard Hunt
Egil Krogh
G. Gordon Liddy
Jeb Magruder
John N. Mitchell

[Tangerine LaBamba]

14. Good point ............

It's awfully hard for me to come to grips with the reality that kids don't know what Vietnam was about, or what Watergate meant, or a whole lot of other things, and I shudder to think that they're not curious enough to do a little research on things that you and I lived through.

There are parts of this getting older business that are confusing. Thank you for reminding me, and forgive me if you thought my response was rude. I completely overlooked the obvious, and I am grateful to you for pointing it out to me.

I shall now go and tie balloons onto my walker so that they make that really cool sound.......................................

[Stuart G]

16. I am there too...I used to teach History in Secondary Schools..

and I hate to tell you how little of U.S. History we would cover.

I am ashamed myself..to think the present generation knows so little of Viet Nam and Watergate...I will get some baloons too..for my walker...
see you at the park

[Tangerine LaBamba]

19. What park?

Who are you?

Did we talk?

Never mind. I'm getting chafed, trying so hard to think ............................

(Seriously, though, history curricula in American secondary schools have long been shameful exercises in misinformation or no information. Travel abroad showed me that a lot of people in other countries knew more about our beloved USA than we did. Just for instance, Jordan's King, who was visiting DC yesterday, took a motorcycle ride - he's a big biker guy - out to Harper's Ferry, because he wanted to see the site where John Brown dd his thing. Can you imagine how many Americans don't have a clue as to who John Brown was?)

[Muttocracy]

27. wow, good for him - and so few Americans would have any ideas

about what to see in Jordan (I know next to nothing about Jordan :blush: )

[Tangerine LaBamba]

28. Consider this -

his wife was an American Princeton graduate.

And, yeah, most Americans know nothing about any other countries. Think about how many kids learn English in school in other countries, while our kids barely learn English.

You were brave, to have taught in secondary schools. I applaud you.

:toast:

Now, where are my diapers?

[Muttocracy]

29. Stuart G was the teacher, not me...

forget your diapers, where are your pills?!

(I wouldn't have the strength to teach secondary - I used to teach college and quit)

[Tangerine LaBamba]

31. Whoops...........

See what happens when I can't find my whatever it was I was looking for.

Sorry. That was careless of me. But, thanks for being so goodnatured about it. Whatever it was we're talking about.

I taught in law school. It was great, but I know that's because everyone REALLY wanted to be there, and the sucking up was phenomenal........

[Muttocracy]

26. thanks for posting who Butterfield was - and when I took U.S. History

in 7th grade and 11th grade, we would run out of time near the end of the year and barely cover the 1970s and 1980s - despite Watergate, Vietnam, oil embargo, Iran hostage crisis, etc. being some of the most relevant stuff to know. I would trade details I learned about the Revolutionary War and Civil War to have spent more time on recent history. Though perhaps I would have gotten a slanted history if we had covered it.

[horseshoecrab]

24. I remember that day

Virtually glued to the TV, I remember Mr. Butterfield as he almost casually mentioned the White House taping system in a reply to a question. It was an incredible revelation!

I've read, over the years that he'd decided that if someone asked him the right question that he'd bring it out.

Those were amazing days. Nearly every day brought a new bombshell. It seems that we are getting closer to that point now.



horseshoecrab

[cliffordu]

13. I believe there are tapes of kiddie rape at Abu Graihb(sp)

[Tangerine LaBamba]

15. A little boy was raped there ..........

That matter is discussed in the movie I've been touting - that everyone should see:

"Standard Operating Procedure."

http://tinyurl.com/b5p3g8

[cliffordu]

17. Thanks for the link.

The shit gets deeper and deeper all the time.

I want my fucking country back. There should be some death penalty cases here somewhere.

[Stuart G]

20. I want my country back too...That is why so many worked for Obama and

gave money to him. We want our country back. Send these goons to the slamer
Halderman and Earlichmen spent time in jail..Let's see the same for Rice and Cheney...sure..

[Tangerine LaBamba]

21. Listen, hon,

I'm old. I was a grown-up when Watergate took place, and I am telling you - so take heart - that it is just now, just a tiny bit, starting to feel like it did back then, as the public uproar grew louder and louder and Congress was forced to take action and open hearings. We all know what happened then.

So, we must just keep our voices raised, keep writing to our Congressmen and Senators, keep it up, never relent, and keep cheering on people like Rachel Maddow and Keith Olbermann.

I just hope the Representatives we have today have 1/10th the courage that those men did back in the Watergate days.

But, see that movie - and make sure everyone you know sees it. It's very, very important, now more than ever.................

[cliffordu]

33. Well, Hon, so was I.

I was already home from my tour buy the time watergate happened...

[Tangerine LaBamba]

34. Ah, good ...........

I'm so used to kids here not having a clue about Watergate, I just fell into the habit. I hope you understand that I wasn't trying to be condescending. The "hon" was purely a term of affection.

And I'm glad you made it home safely ..............................

[cliffordu]

35. Thanks,

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. This is the proverbial tip

some things I suspect we will soon see

Rape, methodical mind you, of children and wife's in front of detainees at insert prison here... and of this we know a little as we've heard rumors


the shooting of husbands for ahem refusing to cooperate

Mass punishments of small towns, were men, of military age, were separated from women and shot, or alternatively women raped in front of their families in the dead of night. More effective still in getting cooperation, raping daughters in front of their parents... about eleven twelve

This is not the first time

...

[EmeraldCityGrl]

23. Is there a statute of limitations on crimes of torture?

I read somewhere it's eight years.

[shraby]

25. There is no statute of limitations on war crimes. The

government was just going to deport a perp to Germany to stand trial.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Perhaps in the US, but not in the world

and there is universal jurisdiction too

We don't, somebody else will

[MiniMe]

32. The international courts are still looking for the Nazis

[EmeraldCityGrl]

36. Here is the article I was trying to recall on statute of limitations.

Written by Jason Leopold
Monday, 26 January 2009 14:17
By Jason Leopold

"House Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers has proposed extending to 10 years the statute of limitations on war crimes, torture, and domestic surveillance in the event an investigation into the Bush administration’s controversial policies turns up prosecutable evidence against former officials after statute of limitations laws currently on the books expire."

http://www.pubrecord.org/torture/643-conyers-calls-for-extending-statute-of-limitations-on-torture.html

[horseshoecrab]

37. Thanks! n/t

[Stuart G]

38. Another similarity to Watergate is that it was not only the events...

themselves, but the cover up and lies surrounding the events that are worse. So the torture is awful, but the way and reasons that it was created (to find out that Iraq and Al Quida sp.. ..are the same, and to justify that war)are in some ways worse. This is just starting up.

[Supersedeas]

40. keep your eye open for the release of the OPR Report that Mukasey blocked the release of