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Torture works sometimes -- but it's always wrong

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 11:04 PM
Original message
Torture works sometimes -- but it's always wrong
http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2009/04/23/torture/



Torture works sometimes -- but it's always wrong
The "ticking bomb" scenario only happens on TV. Those, like Dick Cheney, who cite it are leading society down a fatal slippery slope of abuse.

By Gary Kamiya


April 23, 2009 | We know and have known for years that since 9/11 we have been a nation of torturers. We have also known, in large part, what those tortures consisted of -- waterboarding, slapping, sleep deprivation, the withholding of pain medication. With the Obama administration's release of the four "torture memos," we have learned about other disgusting practices, such as slamming prisoners into walls and locking them in boxes with insects, and gained further insight into the nauseating legal arguments used by Bush administration lawyers to justify the unjustifiable.

Torture is wrong. It is condemned by every civilized nation and by international law. There is, however, one situation in which torture might theoretically be morally justified. This is the so-called "ticking bomb" scenario, which in one form or another has been debated by philosophers and ethicists for hundreds of years. Suppose we know that a captive has planted a bomb in a school, which is due to explode in a few hours. The captive refuses to say in what school he planted the bomb. Are we justified in torturing one depraved individual to save the lives of hundreds of innocent children?

In their response, philosophers divide into two camps. The Kantians, those who believe that human beings have a categorical imperative to treat other humans as ends, not as means, say we are never justified in torturing, no matter how legitimate the goal. The Benthamites or utilitarians say that we are justified, because in this case torture is the lesser of two evils.


Defenders of the Bush administration's use of torture, most notably former Vice President Dick Cheney, would like to pose as high-minded Benthamites. Calling for the release of additional classified memos, Cheney said, "There are reports that show specifically what we gained as a result of this activity." Obama's intelligence director, Dennis Blair, echoed this argument in a memo, writing, "High-value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the Al Qaeda organization that was attacking this country." Former Bush intelligence chief Michael Hayden said, "The use of these techniques against these terrorists really did make us safer, it really did work."

The argument that torture works cannot simply be dismissed. During World War II, for example, the Gestapo used torture with considerable effectiveness on captured agents working for Britain's Special Operations Executive, the top-secret organization dedicated to sabotage and subversion behind Axis lines. A number of agents, unable to withstand the pain or, in some cases, even the prospect of pain, told their captors everything they knew, including the identity of other agents, the arrival time of flights, and the location of safe houses. During France's brutal war in Algeria, the colonial power used torture effectively. As historian Alistair Horne, the author of the classic analysis of the French-Algerian war, "A Savage War of Peace," told me in a 2007 interview, "In Algeria, the French used torture -- as opposed to abuse -- very effectively as an instrument of war. They had some success with it; they did undoubtedly get some intelligence from the use of torture." That intelligence included information about future terrorist strikes and the infrastructure of terror networks in Algiers.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 11:07 PM
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1. "The argument that torture works cannot simply be dismissed." - Yes it can.
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Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. My problem with torture has always been - not only it is wrong - but the tortured will
eventually tell the torturer exactly what he/she wants to hear - right or wrong. It is great for propaganda purposes.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. The argument that clocks without batterys work cannot be simply dismissed...
LOOK! It's been right TWICE!!!!

:rofl:
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. :hi:
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Nice. :)
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. Why can we not dismiss the argument that torture works?
I've seen no evidence that it works better than normal interrogation, and there's considerable evidence that it leads to false information.
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