Why do some men care so much about abortion?

[Beaverhausen]

Anyone hear that lunatic on Thom Hartman's show just now?

Honestly, why is it men are so up in arms about abortion? Especially men who don't give two shits about these children once they are born.

:mad:

edited thread title.

[alsame]

1. It's about controlling women. n/t

[Maccagirl]

3. There's your answer

That's the alpha and omega of it.

[Ohio Joe]

6. Exactly - nt

[no_hypocrisy]

9. BINGO

[Caliman73]

26. Pretty much

If women have reproductive choice, then they are freer to be independent. If the men are religious at all, and that is the basis of their objection, I am sure that they truly believe that god is a man too.

[DCKit]

27. Score.

It's actually pretty sad - insecure, sexually repressed and/or twisted freaks needing to control someone else. They's mental.

[Captain Hilts]

31. Two-Four-Six-Eight-WE'RE the ones who ov-u-late! REPEAT as often as necessary. nt

[lunatica]

36. Ditto it's all about control

[ShortnFiery]

41. Yes, it's all about keeping women subservient. n/t

[dem629]

43. Why would all these women want to control women?

http://www.sehlat.com/lifelink/ffl/plgroups.html

:shrug:

[Dogtown]

60. Crazy?

:shrug:

[eShirl]

77. a control freak is a control freak. n/t

[defendandprotect]

136. Why would all those conservative women want to bank birth control?

And that's what many of them do want!

[dem629]

177. Clearly women want to control women.

Or whatever the theory here is.

[WinkyDink]

192. To please their men-folk.

[dem629]

195. LOL. Good one.

But I don't think women are that weak. Do you?

[SteelPenguin]

78. Incorrect

For SOME men it's about this, certainly, but not all. If anything a bigger reason is because they LACK control over the situation. It's perhaps a subtle difference, but it's a difference.

[Orsino]

90. It's also proxy castration fear.

Men don't like the thought of women destroying the fruit of men's loins.

[defendandprotect]

137. Abortion is an eraser . . ..

[Occam Bandage]

186. So, if we accept that theory, is abortion then an attempt to control/castrate men?

That isn't the argument I'd be pushing...

[Orsino]

190. I doubt that there are many abortions done out of spite. n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

105. Exactly. With a side order of "getting to feel piously

superior while risking none of their own behavior".

[Stellabella]

119. Ding ding ding ding ding!

And punishing them, too, for having sex.

[Deja Q]

161. I think the encompassing issue is control itself -- selective control.

And between conception to birth, it is the control of women.

I'm not keen on abortion, because I am pro-life.

I also happen to think life doesn't end the moment that baby slides down the proverbial hatch and starts crying. We're a society, we all have responsibility. (And to those who think we're not a society, then say so and say it with your real name so we all can audit when you get any services paid for by government so you can promptly be cut off. Don't be hypocrites. )


As for 'selective control', they mandate certain things and then say 'involvement is wrong' to others, and then wonder why everything's in a mess. In a better society, there would be no need for abortions in the first place. Are they unable to fathom THAT little?!

[bluestateguy]

180. Yes, but it's also about controlling poor people.

The rich woman (think, Daddy's little sorority princess) can just hop a plane to another state or country where abortion is legal. Poor women will have to give birth to a child they cannot afford, dooming ever more people to a life of poverty.

[Warpy]

2. They hate women

and think any woman who allows a man to do that to her should be punished.

You're right, they don't give a shit about children. They care about pregnancy as punishment.

[Captain Hilts]

4. It's like women supporting the military draft. They just don't have the creds to do so. nt

[MADem]

7. They can only have the cred if they advocate a truly universal draft,

with no outs for gender.

[ejpoeta]

15. that is the only true fair way to do it. isn't it discrimination to force men to sign up for the

draft, but not women?? totally not fair.

[Captain Hilts]

22. Unfair. Especially when women are more than half of medical doctors and have skills....

that the military needs.

Totally unfair. And, now, it's impractical.

[MADem]

30. It's "Congressionally mandated" unfairness. There's a lot of that still on the books.

DOMA, for example. DADT. The gender-specific nature of the draft and combat restrictions are all in that same soup.

Of course, no one's in a huge hurry to take these issues to this particular Supreme Court, owing to the Neanderthal nature of a number of those sitting on that bench.

[Captain Hilts]

20. Correctamundo. nt

[unapatriciated]

156. I understand women protesting the draft....

We do have the creds for that, our sons.

[MADem]

5. They harbor a secret fear that if their mamas had possessed an idea what vicious little

misogynistic shits they'd turn out to be, that mama would have "scheduled the procedure" on them.

Of course, as you noted, it's only "some" men who are like this--the stupid ones.

If you don't have the gear, it ain't your business, that's my view.

[RB TexLa]

8. Same reason some here care so much about what the woman with the 14 babies did in her body

because they are fucked in their heads and don't respect other human beings.

[WinkyDink]

193. Not the same. She brought all those children into poverty, and hoped to score big.

[ohheckyeah]

10. How dare a woman

get rid of the proof of a man's virility. That's my take.

[MajorChode]

11. I don't think you HAVE to be a woman in order to have a relevant opinion on abortion

But you are correct in that those who appear to feel most strongly about it are typically the same ones who actively work against the kids' best interests once they are outside the womb. Typically they are against strong public education, children's health care, and child poverty issues. There are some areas in the US that have infant mortality rates that rival 3rd world countries and I haven't seen any Repugs that gave two shits about it. It's just another reason why their opinions are irrelevant and should be marginalized.

[spoony]

19. Great post! n/t

[ejpoeta]

12. it has to do with control. see, the egg is always there. it takes the men to

inseminate a woman and make a baby. now, if a woman can then go and decide that she doesn't want a baby... what is a man to do. women can already go to a sperm bank and get sperm and be artificially inseminated without ever needing a man.... men do not like this. they do not like that women can decide for themselves. then women go off and get liberated and go to school and learn. and then they might not need men to take care of them at all!! women are such ingrates, aren't they. now, this is not all men by any means. there are plenty of guys out there that support a woman's right to decide. i think the biggest offended parties with regard to women's rights or choice are probably the religious nuts. but i could be wrong about that.

[formercia]

13. These same wankers think nothing of wasting their precious

genetic material on a whim.

[Arkansas Granny]

14. Yes, I heard him and I don't know what their motives are. I don't have any

data to back this up, and I know there are people of both sexes who oppose abortion, but it seems to me that men are more emotional and quicker to condemn on this issue than women. If these same men would show as much passion about health care for children and abolishing child poverty, I might be able to take their concern for an embryo a little more seriously.

[Journeyman]

16. Old cartoon I remember from the '70s. . .

A man in a suit is standing to the side, greatly agitated, his wife seated beside him.

Says she: "If you feel so strongly about abortion, John, you shouldn't have one."

[ellie]

17. Control

They want to control women. That is all.

[havocmom]

18. Some favor freedom and choice. Some are all about controlling the collective uterus

The latter group might want to prove their devotion to the unborn by having fetuses implanted on their spleens or livers. Let THEM gestate, have the C-sections, raise the kids they were so passionate about forcing women to bear.

[sinkingfeeling]

21. It's all about male dominance. Name one female leader of a 'pro-life' group.

[get the red out]

35. Every sperm is sacred

Women's lives and freedom - not so much. I will never forget John McCain's scowl when he spat the words "Life of the Mother!" so derisively in the debates. He spoke for the patriarchy.

[Deja Q]

162. Every sperm tastes like chicken too

I don't think mens' lives matter as much at times either... it's more about empty profits, if I were to say something so cynical...

[NorthernSpy]

37. Judie Brown, for one...

President and co-founder of the American Life League. Which I think might be the most extreme of the "mainstream" anti-abortion orgs, because the ALL takes the Catholic "no exceptions" stance.


And then there's Wanda Franz at the National Right To Life thing (Committee?).



Uh... Do I win something?

[dem629]

40. And FFLA president Serrin Foster.

[IntravenousDemilo]

23. Since I'll never have to carry a baby inside me, my male opinion on abortion is irrelevant,

just as I feel that women's opinions on male circumcision are also irrelevant since they don't have penises. But as a human being, I do have a definite opinion about choice. Abortion is a difficult decision and it should be left to the person whose health will be affected by a pregnancy. If the pregnant woman wants to consult with the father for his opinion, that's up to the woman as well, but it's not necessary.

[CTyankee]

42. It's the way I feel. Men really shouldn't have a say. With regard to circumcision, I remember when

our son was born I asked his father what we should do about circumcision (my doctor had asked me). I left the decision to him because frankly I couldn't possibly ever know what being circumcised was like. His choice was circumcision, mainly because he believed it to be more sanitary and he himself had been circumcised. We certainly had no Victorian sensibilities (altho HIS father and mother might have). The doctor had also said it was a good idea (he was Jewish however my husband and Iwere not).

[IntravenousDemilo]

61. My position on circumcision is that the decision should be the left to the child...

... and then only after he's reached the age of majority. It's his body and not his parents', just as in the case of abortion it's the woman's body and not her inseminator's.

[CTyankee]

64. Unfortunately, it's not realistic to think that it should ever be done to an older male.

This is a major difference between abortion and circumcision.

I won't get into the debate over circumcision, tho. The fact of the matter is that it is and has been over centuries practiced by Judaism with pretty much full agreement among its fellow Jews. So for the time being, male Jewish babies will continue to be cicumcised, regardless of others' opinions. Not being Jewish or male, I prefer not to get into this debate (I have 3 granddaughters being raised in the Jewish faith and I have deep respect for this religion altho I myself have none).

[IntravenousDemilo]

65. Exactly why it should be left to the penis possessor.

Religion should be an adult choice, too, though. I always feel a bit queasy when they send the kids off to Sunday School for their weekly inculcation after the first hymn and call to worship.

[CTyankee]

70. Well, I would agree in many instances but surely you know that you can't

win when it comes to Jewish circumcision, and I will not debate that anyway.

The fact is that the anti-circumsion movement meets a brick wall when it comes to Jewish circumcision. And I just don't know how you knock that down...

[IntravenousDemilo]

73. No, I realize that to knock that wall down would take an earthquake, or another Joshua.

But the vast majority of Americans and Canadians are neither Jewish nor Muslim, so I'm thinking more of them. By the way, I heard that if it's done by a doctor rather than by a mohel, it's not kosher and thus doesn't satisfy the covenant. Is that true?

[CTyankee]

75. I know that my husband converted to Judaism many years ago and the fact

that he had been circumcised at birth (by a doctor)wasn't an issue for his conversion, but that was to Reform Judaism.

[JackDragna]

176. Men, however, are involved in the procreative process..

..so our opinion is far from irrelevant. That said, I am firmly a supporter of abortion rights and consider the lack of adequate facilities for such procedures to be little less than a crime.

[IntravenousDemilo]

24. Delete

Dupe

[Echo In Light]

25. Authoritarian personality disorder, that en masse can pass for normal/"traditional"

Which is why they so desperately try to create the illusion of strength in numbers ...that they clearly do not have.

[SidDithers]

28. I care a great deal about abortion...

I want it to be a safe and available choice for the women that I love, in case they ever need it.

Sid

[Lance_Boyle]

29. abortion as a political issue, or as a personal issue?

If political, yeah, probably the control thing that's been stated here already. When it's a personal issue, though, I don't think we can just immediately come to that knee-jerk conclusion. In other words, a man who opposes his neighbor's stepsister's cousin's abortion is probably a religious nut or some other flavor of woman-hating pig. A man who opposes his pregnant partner's plans for abortion may have a more genuine interest in seeing his child born, and caring for it. Ideally he would have some say in the matter.

[moez]

32. Do I have to be a soldier to be against the war?

[Withywindle]

33. Major empathy FAIL.

Misogynistic men are constitutionally incapable of truly empathizing with a woman. The idea of briefly stepping into the shoes of an "inferior being" to think about the issue from a woman's point of view is deeply threatening to them; they can't do it and they get violently angry when you suggest that they should. They're so concerned about the fetus because there's a chance that fetus might be a baby MAN, which is of course more important than the woman.

[amitten]

34. It's a moral issue, and everyone has opinions on morals. n/t

[Scout]

231. abortion is not a moral issue, it is a medical procedure n/t

[dem629]

38. Why does gender matter?

I'm aware of no one who scoffs at men who are pro-choice, asking why their opinion matters.

So this is disingenuous.

[ShortnFiery]

44. Because it's the woman who carries the child and *the one* responsible for their care after birth.

I heard a joke that may have ended irony when it was said, "If men were the ones who became pregnant, abortion clinics would be a prevelant as Home Depots."

Ain't that the truth!?! :nuke:

[dem629]

45. So pro-choice men should be silent?

[ShortnFiery]

47. No, they should INDIVIDUALLY choose mates who are also pro-choice.

It's like "support groups" in that, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the only people who TRULY KNOW what it is like, have experienced it.

Pregnancy/ Loss / Cancer / Divorce

[dem629]

50. I'm not clear on your position.

Are you saying that men's opinion on abortion shouldn't matter, unless they agree with a certain position?

[ShortnFiery]

53. No, it's not an all or nothing argument. However, the decision of the individual woman is

hers to make. A man's genetic contribution morally should be considered in a close and loving relationship but is NOT, IMO, his right. :shrug:

[dem629]

55. I agree that a man's genetic contribution shouldn't give him rights nor should it bind him to the

baby or mother in any legal way.

I'm just wondering whether you value a man's opinion equally, if they agree or disagree with your view.

[ShortnFiery]

56. Of course I do value men's opinions. It's only when the sense of CONTROL enters the equation

that I get nervous. No, men who care can provide valuable insight. Sorry to convey anything other than that. :shrug:

[dem629]

Okay. I just wanted to be clear.

I guess they can disagree with you, but not express a sense of control, and you'll respect their opinion.

That's fair. Motive is important.

[BoneDaddy]

95. And none of these women

have control issues. Hm.

[dem629]

243. And you have proof of this motive?

[NorthernSpy]

59. You see, I DO think that a child has rights to the people who created him/her.

This will probably get me screamed at, but I don't care. I'm not a fan of the idea that a man or woman can procreate, and then just walk away without consequences or obligations. I think that we are responsible for the lives we bring into the world, and that we have no right to turn our backs on our children.

Procreation without responsibility is tyranny, as far as children are concerned.

[IntravenousDemilo]

62. We men possess the right to have opinions on abortion, as well as a right to air said views...

... once a woman such as the OP has asked us for them. Otherwise, I think we would do well to keep our opinions to ourselves.

[moez]

84. in other words...

check your testicles at the door.

[IntravenousDemilo]

93. Essentially. Nobody really wants to hear from my testicles except my boyfriend. n/m

[dem629]

120. And you are of course free to do that.

[Dappleganger]

88. They're not silent in anything else.

But for once I'd say yes, they should stfu.

[dem629]

121. Sexist.

[Dappleganger]

123. About what happens to MY body?

You're delusional. Women have had to sit and listen to men for thousands of years. For once it is the men's turn to shut up and let us decided what WE want to do with OURSELVES.

[dem629]

175. You can call me delusional if it makes you feel better.

But anyone who dismisses an entire gender is engaging in sexist thought. If men do it to women, it's misogyny. In your case, it's misandry.

[Dappleganger]

185. Typical MCP

You can't handle not having control over us, can you?
It has absolutely NOTHING to do with you, so yes you need to be quiet and listen for once. Something tells me that you never do that and take every opportunity to wax paternal.

[dem629]

194. Just as I thought.

You can't defend your sexist views.

There's one person in our discussion who is interested in controlling a certain gender. It's you, and your desire to control what men say. If you're honest with yourself, you'll admit that I'm the one speaking out against declaring an entire gender unqualified to speak. You know this.

As for MCP, no I am not a Microsoft Certified Professional. Sorry. Oh, did you perhaps mean a Maritime Communications Partner? Can't help you there, either. But I might tell you a little about Molecular and Cellular Proteomics, if you're nice.

[Dappleganger]

197. Why are you even on this forum?

If you cannot admit your own bigotry?
This topic of abortion needs NO man's point of view, unless you have somehow miraculously begun carrying babies. Until such time, you need to control your bigoted views and let women speak of women's issues and accept it at that.

Abortion has nothing to do with YOU and your own bigoted, selfish desires to rule over women.
I can't believe your bigotry has been tolerated on this board for so long.

[liquid diamond]

206. You're way out of line

Bigotry? For crying out loud. I believe that a woman should ultimately decide what she does with her body, but to say a man's opinion on this issue is irrelevant because he can't give birth is ridiculous.

[dem629]

223. She has no logical argument. That's why the hysterical responses set in so quickly.

[Scout]

229. just playing devil's advocate for a minute....

if the ultimate decision belongs to the woman, then what is precisely the point of the man voicing his opinion? other than to try to persuade the woman to do what he wants, whether it's to carry the pregnancy to term or to terminate it?

if it is not to persuade her to his point of view, what is the point of the man expressing how he feels about a woman's pregnancy?

thanks in advance for your serious answer.

[Tartiflette]

234. If a man does not express his opinion...

..then how can a woman be certain what his feelings are? If she were to make a decision with no input from him at all, then she is either disregarding his opinion as irrelevant or assuming that she knows what his feelings will be. Neither situation seems particularly healthy to me.

[Scout]

238. why does the woman need to be certain what his feelings are?

the decision is hers after all.

why does she need his input? (except to persuade her to act as he desires)

[Tartiflette]

241. Is that a reasonable question?

It depends on the state of their relationship, and what value that is to her, I think. If she is using the man as a tool for insemination, then of course, such a discussion is essentially pointless. However, take the opposite position and assume this is a relationship the woman cherishes. Then I would consider that it would be of immense value to know what effect any decision the woman might take would have on her partner and prospective father of her child. This could be very useful information to have if she is struggling to make a decision one way or the other (eg, I can't go through this alone-type feelings, which I imagine might be quite common, particularly with younger women).. I would consider having this conversation in much the same way as I would consider a conversation that a man might have concerning a job opportunity that involves a major relocation - the decision taken has implications for both partners, and hence I think the implications are best discussed. Don't you think there are potential implications for the future health of that relationship if she weren't to have that discussion?

None of this implies "need".

[Scout]

247. it's a perfectly reasonable question

the state of their relationship (since we are making up scenarios) is that she KNOWS he will want her to carry the pregnancy to term, yet she also KNOWS that she can't/doesn't want to carry it to term. she KNOWS that he will be very upset and angry if he even thinks she is considering abortion. the future health of their relationship will be damaged if he knows she is pregnant and she is going to have an abortion. so she doesn't tell him.

why should she discuss it with him? why does she need his opinion? why is he entitled to express his opinion about what she can do with her body?

again, what is the point of considering his opinion, unless it is to allow him a chance to sway her decision to be what HE wants it to be. her choice is not freely made in this case.

[rebecca_herman]

251. and on the flip side

if we have a man who would not want to stay in a relationship with a woman if she aborts, why do you think she is entitled to lie to him about it to keep a relationship with a guy who is opposed to it? you really think she's entitled to keep a relationship through dishonesty? and that's healthy?

I'm female and I'd be absolutely FURIOUS if a potential husband had a vasectomy without telling me and it would end the relationship. He's not entitled to do something like that that he knows will kill the relationship then keep me with him through lies. It's his body and he has the right to do what he wants to it but I would also feel I have the right to know what's going on with him and decide if I want to stay. I feel the same courtesy should apply to a man who objects to abortion. If he thinks it's morally wrong, or he just really wants kids or whatever, what right do you have to keep him by LYING to him?

For me this really has less to do with abortion in general and more the fact that people who are trying to make a long term relationship DESERVE honesty particularly about issues that truly are deal breakers to them. By your logic, no one should admit they cheated, and just hope the other person doesn't find out because hey they use their right to leave a relationship where the other partner did something that upsetting to them, and hey people have a right to keep a relationship going by any means neccesary including dishonesty on important issues.

If the woman is lying about abortion and pregnancy in order to keep the guy, the health of the relationship has already been permanently damaged. If you have to lie about something that is serious to the other person to keep a partner, you are not having a healthy relationship IMO.

[Scout]

260. "if we have a man who would not want to stay in a relationship with a woman if she aborts,"

then we have a man who is a controlling asshole, and the woman is better off without him.

[Tartiflette]

252. You are misrepresenting my position

My final sentence in my prior post I noted that nothing implies "need", yet you're back to that again. You ASSUMED she knows his position - I started from the ASSUMPTION she does not or is willing to decide his opinion for him, so we're not arguing from the same perspective. My interpretation of this is that you are deliberately doing this to try to make a political point I have no inclination to debate, hence I don't think this is a good faith discussion. In your example above, it is fairly clear that they have had discussions of the type I am referring to prior to the pregnancy - I ASSUMED such conversations have not taken place. Further, you're advocating dishonesty, in my opinion, which I would never accept as a basis for a sound relationship.

Nonetheless, I hold that my analogy about decisions and relationships is true. Sure, she can choose not to discuss it with him - that is her prerogative, but in my opinion it runs grave risk of damaging her relationship, just like any major decision taken alone in a relationship that has permanent/long-lasting consequences is likely to damage that relationship. I guess it depends on how one approaches relationships, and I'm willing to admit that not everyone shares my opinion on that, and I would hazard a guess that you do not. I also hold that input from a partner may facilitate the decision-making process. From my limited understanding this is a very difficult decision - it might be of future benefit to see whether her partner will stand with her in difficult times or not. I see the differences in our positions as an uninformed versus an informed choice - and I maintain that the more information about the consequences of the choice the woman has, the more confident in her choice she can be.

[liquid diamond]

248. I don’t like your attitude on this subject,

but I’ll play your game. There are several reasons why a woman would want to discuss a potential abortion with her partner. One, maybe she just needs convincing that he will stick around when the kid is born. Maybe she is just unsure about how they can contribute to support the baby financially. Perhaps there are issues on the timing of the pregnancy. Married couples have such discussions all the time. Hey, maybe the guy may agree on an abortion and he can give her emotional support!
It’s just my opinion, but I think it is callous not to at least consult a partner before making such a CRITICAL decision. He had a key role in the pregnancy (you people really need to recognize that), so he should at least have the opportunity to weigh in on the situation.
Why would a woman be so cold and full of hate that she would casually disregard her the potential father’s feelings?
I’ll say this again. I think in the end it should be the woman’s decision, but what the hell could it hurt to get the man’s input?

[Scout]

259. i never said a woman should or should not WANT to discuss an unplanned

pregnancy.

i don't much care for your attitude either, but so what?

he did not have a "key role" in the pregnancy ... they fucked, she got pregnant.

i'll say this again ... if the woman KNOWS she cannot carry the pregnancy to term and wants an abortion, there is no point getting the man's opinion (unless she WANTS it ... she doesn't NEED it and she doesn't HAVE to get it).

"but what the hell could it hurt to get the man’s input?" why, so he can try to force the woman to do what he wants her to do? if they disagree, what is the point? how healthy will that relationship remain, if they disagree and she does what she sees best against his wishes?

"you people" really need to learn how to read and to understand that words MEAN things.

[Name removed]

199. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dem629]

200. I guess since you have no defense of your position

all you have is anger and ignoring. Fine by me. It pretty much makes my point.

:hi:

It's amazing that we have some who consider themselves progressive, yet they have such a closed mind.

[burning rain]

174. If it were men who got pregnant,....

the Republican Party's platform would include a pro-choice plank, and not only would the Roman Catholic Church be pro-choice, there'd be a patron saint of patients going for abortions.

[Hepburn]

39. Control over women.

Ummmmm....the term "bare footed and pregnant" does come to mind.

JMHO

[NorthernSpy]

46. Because they're half of the human reproductive equation...

... and there are feelings associated with that.


No, doesn't mean that they should hold veto power over a woman's body. Also doesn't mean that we need to vilify them for their feelings and concerns -- I just don't see that as helpful.

[ShortnFiery]

49. Too often "the other half" of the reproductive equation leaves only a genetic contribution

to the child's future. :shrug:

[NorthernSpy]

52. Oh, I know...

But even a good, responsible man should not hold veto power over the woman, because he does not share the risks of pregnancy.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. I'm a man and I care about abortion.

Abortion rights, that is. My ex's 14 year old daughter was pregnant. She was too young to have a child. We convinced her that an abortion was the best thing for her.

I'd do it again if the situation presented itself.

I'm also a contributing member to NARAL and Planned Parenthood.

[ShortnFiery]

51. That's terrific, but you are on the "non-controlling" end of the argument.

I care about lowering the rates for abortion by EDUCATION and ACCESS to effective birth control for teens and women.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

54. Which is why I support NARAL and PP.

Who, without doubt, prevent more abortions than all the pro-preggers combined.

[ShortnFiery]

57. Kudos. You are the genuine article.

I wish there were MANY more men as enlightened as yourself. :hi:

[Deep13]

58. I don't care about the abortion rates.

I think it is legitimate birth control. What I care about is unwanted pregnancy which breeds misery.

[Mushroom]

63. Because they

want women over a barrel.

[Mushroom]

72. And furthermore...

Male opinion of female stuff is like cavesex: caveman gives for cavewoman to receive. Plugging our ears to unwanted caveman opinion is like refusing sex & seed. Hurt feelings. Rejection. Inadequacy. A bonk on the head to regain the upper hand...

[Union Yes]

66. Antichoice women typically brainwashed by their church.

My mother and sister are shining examples. Lord, Ive tried to educate those 2.

Men- Its all about control.

If they cared about the living the way they "care" about the fetus. This country would be so far left that a marxist like me would probably cringe. OK I wouldn't cringe but you get the point...

Their view- Life begins at conception and ends at birth.

If they cared about the living, the single mom who has to raise a family and the ensueing hardships, the way they care about the fetus..

Their hypocrisy reeks like shit.

[The Straight Story]

67. Not just men, and not just abortion - plenty of folks seem to like controlling others' choices

:shrug:

[obiwan]

68. It's not for a man to say. Men don't own women's bodies.

It's a WOMAN's issue.

PS I am a man. A thinking man.

When, and only when, men can give birth, then it's a man's issue too.

[salguine]

69. Because men are parents too. Just because we can't

carry a baby doesn't mean we're unable to have strong thoughts and feelings about children and about being parents.

Should men not care about, or have thoughts on, abortion? At all?

[Horse with no Name]

81. Men can walk away from an unwanted pregnancy

Women cannot.
THAT is the difference. And no, you have no right to control anyone else's body but YOUR own.
If you are interested in procreating, then find a mate and make a mutual decision that is based on love and trust and THEN decide to have a child. That is YOUR benefit of choice.
However, the condom breaking--ineffective birth control--out of control passion for one night does not lay the foundation for being a parent if the partner who has to give up her body to incubate a child for 9 months does NOT wish to be one.

[Tartiflette]

254. Legally, a man cannot "walk away"

can he? At least not where I live, so I may be incorrect in generalizing the comment (and of course, far too many men do walk away even given their legal responsibilities. I don't want to deny or minimize that problem). But if I am correct, then there are consequences (at the very least, financial) for the man that will have impact throughout his life - so, to revisit your final sentence and play with it ... "However, the condom breaking--ineffective birth control--out of control passion for one night does not lay the foundation for being a parent for the rest of his life if he does NOT wish to be one."

as I stated elsewhere, I tend to think the man should have the right to walk away while termination is still an option, providing he abdicates ALL parental rights in doing so. Thus the decision to become a parent is not forced on either party (again, to reiterate, I realize this position may be impractical in a real world situation, but I am approaching this from what I see as the fairest of positions, ie where the will of one partner is not forced upon the other). From a personal perspective it would be unthinkable for me to walk away, but I don't think I should impose that position on others.

[Occam Bandage]

71. Why do some Americans care so much about whether Iraqis get killed?

[nomorenomore08]

112. ??????

[Occam Bandage]

153. Not if you believe personhood begins at conception.

[shadowknows69]

74. To play devil's advocate here....

Isn't it possible that some men who don't like abortion simply want to see their child born? I'm talking a subjective situation. If a woman I loved and got pregnant wanted to have an abortion I wouldn't stand in the way of it, but I can't say It wouldn't bother me or I might not try to talk her out of it. Doesn't make me automatically hate all women or want to completely control the one with me.

[SteelPenguin]

79. I honestly think this is one of the biggest reasons

I was going to post something similiar.

I think It's about not being able to see past themselves, and when they think of abortion, they think of their own children, with their own situations. My wife is currently pregnant, and if she were to get an abortion without talking to me about it, it would be the end of our relationship. It wouldn't be about ME controlling my wife's body, it would be about the fact that we view that child as OURS.

How would a woman feel if a man could FORCE an abortion on her, to take a child from her that she wanted. I think that would be WORSE than what I'm talking about, but it would be in the same vein.

The men that oppose abortion, can't get past that feeling, I think. They personally oppose abortion, they would never want to see someone abort an unborn child of theirs, and then they project that on everyone else in every other situation.

[robdogbucky]

82. Just want to say

that Shadow, I have lurked for a long time and I have always enjoyed your posts. I hope all is well these days.

About the issue of men's attitudes about abortion, one of the reasons I like DU is that there are so many women here that contribute. Other boards, sports boards, political boards, news story reaction message boards, seem to be more male-domminated and that tends to suck. For this reason I especially hope the women here can understand what happened to me. What I wanted to add here is that I have been on both sides of this issue at different times in my life.

I completely support a woman's right to make the choice. I am old enough to remember the trips to Puerto Rico and Catholic girls' sudden disappearance to Milwaukee or Miami or somewhere for 4 months to have and give up the child. I have had girlfriends that became pregnant and were nowhere near to being able to bring a child into the world. In those instances I completely supported the rights of the woman to make the choice to abort if available. We must never return to the days of back alleys and safe abortions only for the rich.

On the other side of the coin, I have had a mate become pregnant multiple times, and for career considerations, they decided to abort. Three times it was my child that was destroyed. Three times I thought it would not affect me. On those occasions I completely supported her right and took her to and from the procedures. It is no picnic for the woman to go through this, even when it is the right choice.

On Father's Day a few years ago, my wife asked me why I was depressed. I was sitting in my office listening to the kids next door playing in the pool with their father. He had 3 boys. It just suddenly overwhelmed me. I thought that could be me. Because of career, my ex-mate had three times made the choice to abort. Three times I lost the chance to see if I could be a good father. We had many years prior gone our own separate ways and she had been long gone by that time. There I was, experiencing remorse 15 years later. I felt that she did not give me equal time at all and this was the result. I was silent and acquiesced to her career goals. I will never know what kind of father I would have been. I do have step children, but they are largely grown adults and I never was part of their growth.

Being sensitive can be a bitch sometimes.

Just my dos centavos


robdogbucky

[shadowknows69]

86. Thank you for the compliment and welcome to DU. I have an interesting perspective on it I think.

I was born in 1969 and immediately put up for adoption. I was adopted by a loving family and they are my real family by any definition of the word but biologically. Still the thing that does plague me from time to time is the question that were I concieved after Roe V. Wade would I have been allowed to complete the cycle that eventially culminated in the organism I am today. For good or ill depending on who you ask lol.

This doesn't in any way make my position on free choice waver one bit(for it of course), but it is something I think many adoptees my age must occasionally think about. Ultimately I guess I fall into the keep it legal, safe and hopefully rare category. There is no evidence to suggest that there was any proprtional increase in abortions after Roe V. Wade, at least according to a Sociology class I took in college. That for me, next to the woman's right to her own decisions about her body, is my main reason for supporting free choice.

If I truly thought women were recklessly using abortion as birth control as the lunatic RW fringe would have us believe, I might feel slightly differently, but again, I doubt there is one woman who has been through the process that would wish it again if she didn't believe it was truly the right thing to do for herself and the life she may bring into the world.

[Runcible Spoon]

132. Wow your ex was pregnant THREE TIMES and you didn't ask yourself...

"Hey maybe it's time to talk over birth control options, honey?" :wtf: You had sex with your partner over and over again, yet you're still blaming this woman for having three abortions and mourning her decision? Wow.

[robdogbucky]

150. Thanks

First instance was due to her allergic reaction to BC pills, something she had been struggling with, and with us using condoms. Not too reliable BTW.

Second instance was due to her using a diaphragm too long, apparently after it was shot and in her niavete did not realize so when she was first using it. I hear it happens frequently.

Third instance was when she had obviously done something wrong with these spermicide/diaphragm combos, and she was taking prednisone at the time for Bell's palsy contracted from a dentist that injected her when she had cold sore, and really had no choice but to abort.

Happy now?

Hope the same can happen to you one day.

I'm outa here.


robdogbucky

[readmoreoften]

164. Well, you should've used condoms repeatedly if the "death of your unborn children" was such an

issue.

Sorry, I just don't have any sympathy.

[robdogbucky]

189. okay

but I am not asking for any sympathy. I fully supported her decisions at the time. Recall this had happened 15 years before my period of remorse for what had been, once upon reflection that my current wife noticed on a Father's Day a few years ago. All of this happened a long time ago, long before awareness of AIDS elevated everyone's awareness of condoms, sexually transmitted disease, etc. Not that it is any of you alls' judgmental business, and I really don't know why I bother to continue to explain this sh*t to obviously folks that don't care at all about me or mine, and have preconceived notions of things they know absolutely nothing about, but

My ex was on the pill at first, it made her ill, we switched to condoms, but she did not tell me that she thought using vaseline was a good idea. I did not know she was doing that. Instance number one.

The diaphragm instance was inexperience again, with no real awareness that they wear out sooner than later and an unseen pinhole was apparently the culprit. Instance number two.

The third time, I did not even know if it was my child and was around the time of our breakup when it was learned she was seeing other men. Could have been Gene or Joe or who knows who?

Satisfied? Not as simple as the first rounds of insults from you brainiacs imply.

Oh wait a minute, I have not brought up the two times that women had told me they were pregnant (after assuring me they were on the pill, again, many many years ago), only to have one turn out to be a hoax (more common than people admit or realize) and the other time I just sent her the money demanded without ever confirming she was actually pregnant. We were not close, it was a chance encounter, investigation revealed she was unreliable with others, etc. Easier to pay than to play further. Another instance I have not related, but what the hell, a woman that was living in my house and had a heroin habit, became pregnant. Lied to me that she had informed her doctor, and when the time came for her then premature labor, she was still strung out and the crew at the hospital had no idea she was an addict. Feature that? That child died of SIDS two months later.

The really smart folks just went ahead and got vasectomies back in the 70s when they first became available.

Nowadays sometimes sex kills. Back in the sixties' heyday of the rock scene and free love, there was a lot of it to go around. And the worst thing we worried about was the crabs or the clap.

Ain't life grand?


robdogbucky

[NorthernSpy]

201. This is why sex education is so necessary.

People aren't born knowing that vaseline is bad for latex, or how often diaphragms need to be replaced, or that certain medications can make hormonal contraception fail. Even people who are completely opposed to premarital sex should at least know how all this stuff works.


I'm sorry about your bad experiences, robdogbucky. Accurate, comprehensive information could have made a difference.

[robdogbucky]

202. Live and learn I guess

And maybe live again, no?

Next lifetime I will have the vasectomy.

I think, no, I know,.... a lot of my generation got caught up in the sexual liberation of the day, post-50s repressive era, especially in the alternative culture of the times with large numbers of young people from all around the world gathering in places like SF, LA, NY, etc.

Lots of young horndogs and lots of nubile young honeys to match that. Caution was thrown to the wind in the name of experiencing life and the rage of hormones.

So different now, with such a panoply of deadlies to be aware of.



robdogbucky

[BoneDaddy]

97. What a concept, ty

Gee, by reading some of the threads here, men who are anti-choice are demonic, thoughtless controllers of women.

And I am pro-choice. I find these type of discussions are simply excuses for some women to get out their anger at men.

[Crunchy Frog]

76. It's a male primate thing.

An obsessive interest in the reproductive condition of the females and the control thereof.

[fuggbush21]

80. Is that what you tell women who oppose it?

nt.

[ieoeja]

85. That would be a female primate thing. n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

99. That's more an identification with power thing.

I realize that there are some women who really care about all the poor little "babies", and think that they're working to try to protect them. I think for the most part they are having their compassionate impulses manipulated for ulterior purposes.

It's interesting that no one seems all that concerned with what men do with their reproductive bits. :shrug:

[Vidar]

83. They're men who want to retain power over women.

[shadowknows69]

87. A lot of broad brushes being wielded here

Isn't it possible for a man to be against abortion but for free choice and not be a controlling mysoginist? Because frankly I place myself in that camp.

[fuggbush21]

89. Myself as well.

I am personally against abortion. But I fully support a womens right to make the choice.

But my opinion doesn't matter. I'm just trying to dominate women. :eyes:

[TahitiNut]

100. Ditto.

I find the broad-brush ascription of evil motives to be nothing but bigotry.

:shrug:

[ItNerd4life]

91. Yes, why are some men Pro-choice? They shouldn't have an opinion. nt

[H2O Man]

101. The worst kind, they.

Bastards! Manipulative, controlling thugs.

[TahitiNut]

215. Yeah. I'm so ashamed ... but I can't help it.

:cry:

[BoneDaddy]

92. I am pro-choice but I don't think it is that simple

I know men who are anti-choice and they are far from controlling in their relationships with their wives. They just happen to be die-hard Christians who believe that abortion is murder.

Certainly, there are men who believe women should be subservient or controllded, and that is an answer, but I do not think it can be painted with such a broad brush. I think for many men, they have a moral conviction about it.

[JerseygirlCT]

107. Taking the position that a woman cannot control

her own body IS controlling - regardless of the face they put on it, or how they behave otherwise.

They are free to have their opinion, of course, but when that opinion extends to limiting a woman's personal choices or bodily integrity... then they become controlling.

[BoneDaddy]

179. I know what you are saying

I am just saying that they see it differently. Having an opinion is controlling? Sure if you say so.

[JerseygirlCT]

236. It's a controlling opinion

They can tell themselves it's not so, but that doesn't really change it. They are of the opinion that someone other than a woman ought to control her body.

They are free to hold that opinion, of course - but I don't find such things harmless, either.

[H2O Man]

94. because

[BoneDaddy]

96. I love how often these threads about the controlling male

seem to come from very controlling women.

[JerseygirlCT]

109. I haven't seen any woman here (maybe I missed it) suggesting that

men's rights to make personal medical decisions be legally restricted.

[nomorenomore08]

113. I think that's the crucial distinction.

Complaining that people are trying to tell you what to think is all well and good, and may be justified, but as long as they aren't actively trying to restrict your personal freedoms, that does take a bit of the sting out of it.

[JerseygirlCT]

115. Exactly. Everyone is entitled to an opinion

No one is entitled to restrict another adult's body like that.

Maybe IOW: your opinion stops at my womb.

[Tartiflette]

235. I'm a pro-choice male

but I can still see that for some people human life begins at conception. While it's not an argument I consider sound, I believe that some (not all, and maybe only a minority of "pro-lifers") of those people who hold a strict "pro-life" point of view for such a reason, and particularly if they tend to hold a "pro-life" position post-birth, are not necessarily trying to "control women", but are rather placing a value on what they perceive to be life. As I said, that's not the position I hold, and I am firmly in the camp of women's choice.

Incidentally, I think that women's choice lends itself to a basic injustice, and would tend to favor a man's right to walk away from the entire situation within a certain timeframe after the pregnancy has been discovered and the woman has decided to carry, so long as it remains in the timeframe where the women has a choice over pregnancy termination. This would mean the man must abdicate ALL parental rights, including access. I realize this is less than ideal, and may not be a practical solution, but seems to me to be a fairer situation than the current one, in that both parties have a choice, and neither can impose their will on the other.

[JerseygirlCT]

237. But that position

still ignores an actual life in favor of a potential life.

It's certainly a complex question and a complex situation. But the answer is never to just impose an outside "solution" on a woman - one that only she will have to bear the consequences of.

I have no beef with people who don't like abortion, and therefore will not have one. I'm likely in the same spot. But I feel very strongly that regardless of someone else's beliefs, I and only I make that decision for me. Someone else's beliefs cannot be allowed to control my personal medical decisions - or those of any other woman.

[Tartiflette]

239. I agree

Your distinction is a very good one - a real versus a potential person. It's just that some people obviously consider a bunch of incompletely differentiatied cells equivalent to a human being, a point I personally find ludicrous. I was trying to state what I perceive their point of view to be, and why in their eyes it might be considered valid.

I don't think that we can or should impose any restrictions on a woman's freedom of choice in this regard. And much of this whole argument is about control, as many have pointed out. But it would also be unfair to dismiss it as entirely about control, since there are people who clearly hold the viewpoint above.

I agree entirely with your final two sentences, and again, they're well put. I do think though that in most situations the woman, while making the final decision alone, would probably benefit from having a discussion with the prospective father, as it is likely to have potential implications for the future of their relationship, irrespective of how strong or tenuous that relationship or the choice made.

[JerseygirlCT]

242. Absolutely

But as a legal, ethical matter - it's her decision, and who she invites into that decision is hers to decide. It's hard for me to imagine anyone in a relationship *not* wanting very much to include the potential father, and sure thing there are huge benefits to doing so. But legally... I just don't want to start down that slope. Bottom line is that it's still her body that's being involved.

And as I said, while personally, I don't think I could do it (easier for me to say, as a stable, married, woman), it's just such an important decision that the only person who should be entrusted with it is the woman involved.

And my quite devout Catholic mom totally agrees. Which is the real pro-choice position, and which too many on the anti-choice side refuse to see.

[Tartiflette]

253. There is one word I disagree with

and that is the use of the word "ethical". Ethics are not absolutes, and one should be careful before labelling a position as ethical, and by implication another as unethical. One could consider that termination of a human being (as perceived by "pro-lifers") is unethical, no matter the situation. While this is nearly the opposite to my own position I won't demonise that viewpoint, when held in good faith and not used as a tool to subjugate women.

But essentially we share a similar view on the whole matter, I think.

[readmoreoften]

166. Yes, women who are "very controlling" about what can be done to their own bodies.

How dare they? There is no reasonable limit where women should stop being "controlling" when it comes to their bodies.

[BoneDaddy]

178. No, not at all

You have the absolute right to your bodies, please do not construct a straw man (no pun intended) argument. That was never my point and you know it. I see alot of women telling men what to think. I will reach my own conclusions and will not be bullied into as I see many do here.

[MellowDem]

98. Because they view it as a second holocaust

At least for many. It's very religiously grounded and not so much "anti-woman". Think about it, if you believed that abortion truly equalled murder, you would be pretty passionate about it too, man or not.

[Caliman73]

104. Not so sure about that

I believe that some men object based on religious grounds, but it seems that many of those men support the Death Penalty, and do not particularly care about the welfare of the poor who starve and die of disease. I think the OP was drawing a line between men who have valid reason to oppose the abortion of their particular offspring by a spouse or girl friend and those who do not think that ANY woman should have a right to choose. I am assuming this because the OP was not very articulate in drawing the distinction but mentioned about men who do not particularly care about the child after it is born. What I find interesting is that Christians who are so against abortion would be pro Death Penalty, pro military, and seem unaffected by the plight of the poor. If you are Christian, then you are obligated to follow all of the teachings such as turning the other cheek, feeding the poor, doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. There seems to be selective application of Christ's teachings from religious people which I find invalidates their "moral high ground" arguments. Christ never made any distinction between innocents and non-innocents with regards to murder.

[JerseygirlCT]

108. No. It's religiously grounded AND very much anti-woman

Because the woman never figures in their opinion. It's all focused on a fetus, and the woman is merely the vessel.

They feel quite free to feel express their opinions and expect to be lauded for their beliefs - because they never, ever, have to have their own rights so subjugated to another's will in this way.

It's a self-serving sanctimony and conveniently ignores the actual (not potential) person involved.

[defendandprotect]

139. If the source is organized patriarchal religion, then it is "anti-woman" . . .

because that's the basis of this underpinning for patriarchy ---

The war on women begins and end with patriarchy and is carried thru organized

patriarchal religions.

And, yes . . . wasn't that Randall Terry's line . . . "if you believe abortion is

murder, act like it!!" And didn't that lead to the "pro-life" murders?

[Hello_Kitty]

155. Well then why aren't they out on the street protesting wars and famine too?

Because those things affect life AFTER it leaves the womb!

[readmoreoften]

167. I wish these men gave as much a damn about babies who die from lack of access to water

when Coca-Cola commandeers the water supply of a Latin American town. Etcetera.

Why are only "babies" inside women the ones they care about? After their born, these same people aren't worried about depleted uranium in the ME or white phosphorous.

Totally irrational.

[Beaverhausen]

102. Wow- I started this thread yesterday in a moment of anger, not knowing it would last this long

[nomorenomore08]

114. Unintended consequences, and all that...

:P

[Liberal_in_LA]

184. Funny how that happens. you leave for a day and return to find your thread still going

[Regret My New Name]

103. Hmmm. Does this apply to it on a personal level?

As opposed to some dude who just wants to stop all abortions for anyone? Say like, let's say my girlfriend gets pregnant, obviously it's her right to ultimately decide if she keeps the child or not, but I don't think it's wrong for me to have a personal feeling toward if I want a kid or not... Like right now, I don't think I would be too keen on having a little me running around. Would it be wrong for me to have an opinion about what I think she should do and to talk to her about it? (going the other way too, such as if she didn't want to keep it and I did... you know) I think on a personal level then the guy has every right have an opinion, and depending on the situation, to be able to tell the woman how he feels.(I say based on the situation because of cases in which she left an abusive guy or other such fucked situations, I don't think anyone could expect her to care what the guy wants)... Now, when it comes to sweeping laws that apply to everyone, then I don't men have the right dictate if women can get an abortion or not... Then again, I don't think other women have the right to make such laws either... I just think it's a personal issues that is between the couple, but ultimately up to the female involved.

[Freddie Stubbs]

106. Whey were so many Northern white people abolitionists?

:shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

110. So, you're seriously comparing the right of women to control their own bodies to slavery?

Really?

[Freddie Stubbs]

116. No. I am comparing the acute interest which both of these issues have drawn, especially among

people who have not been directly affected by the two practices.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. Why do so many PEOPLE need to tell other PEOPLE what to do all the time?

Seriously. We have a whole planet full o' busybodies, intensely interested in what other people are doing with their bodies, in their bedrooms, etc. etc. Another egregious example? We spend $40 Billion a year- incarcerate MILLIONS- to keep people from smoking a relatively harmless plant.

Why do so many men care so much about abortion? CONTROL. But then, so do a lot of women, like Phylis Shlafly-- women who want to control what OTHER women do with their bodies.

Here's a simple, straightforward guideline for everyone: (you can thank me later)

Worry about your OWN damn business and your OWN body, not your neighbor's. What consenting adults do with their own bodies is their own damn business. That goes for men, that goes for women, that goes for everyone with this deep-seated, apparently human NEED to tell other people what to do.

[FedUpWithIt All]

117. Men do not have the right to make a decision for a woman but they are entitled to their feelings

about the subject of abortion.

They are human beings with certain rights. I would not be too happy about someone telling me what i am allowed to think or feel.

[liquid diamond]

207. Now this is a concise and polite response to the op

[Manifestor_of_Light]

118. My control freak ex husband WANTED me to have an abortion.

He said "We could't afford it" which was BS. He had a good job and health insurance.

We were married about six months when I got pregnant. He was "just looking out for me" because he thought I was "not mature enough" to deal with a pregnancy and a child. I was thirty years old.

There are cruder men with the same idea who kick or beat their pregnant wives/girlfriends. Babies cost money.

I refused to abort. I have a grown daughter now. We divorced when she was little and he FORCED me to pay child support as punishment. He got custody.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

122. More of his bull....

He said later that I had "tricked" him into marriage.

That's pretty strange when we were married for six months BEFORE I got pregnant.

I kept telling him "Do you know how many millions of couples would give every thing they own to have a normal, healthy child?? Do you???"

He never answered of course. Damn narcissist.

To get back at me he told the baby sitter that he would either have to "destroy my parents, destroy me or destroy our child". And he was going to "destroy me, because I was an adult and could handle it".

Scary stuff. He damn near did destroy me and my parents. He said my dad was a dishonest lawyer and made him get a statement from the grievance committee that he had had no complaints. Dad was in his 70s at the time of the divorce. My folks had to file an interpleader over this harassment.

:banghead:

[knitter4democracy]

208. Same here. He was furious when I refused to get an abortion.

He was a total prick all through the pregnancy (my third--I'd had a miscarriage the year before) and started an affair just two months after our son was born. I don't think he ever forgave me, but here's the kicker: we were TTC for a year before I got preggers, and he said not a word about how he didn't think I could handle two children or all the b.s. he said after we found out I was preggers. What. an. idiot.

[Scout]

228. as well you should have....

"We divorced when she was little and he FORCED me to pay child support as punishment. He got custody."

child support isn't punishment for the non-custodial parent, it's money that is needed to care for the child.

[ZombieHorde]

124. Some of us have daughters and other loved ones who happen to be female humans.

eta: Some don't view abortion as a female reproduction issue, they see it as a baby issue. Some people really do view abortion as baby killing.

etaII: I support a woman's right to choose. I can see how my first "eta" can be interpreted as my own opinion, instead of my view of some other people's opinion.

[McCamy Taylor]

125. They have a grudge against their mothers is a common reason.

Mom was too controlling/cold/loved a sister more than them.

[Regret My New Name]

126. How many non-religious people(male or otherwise) want to control who has abortions?

Is it safe to assume that most people who are 100% against all abortions, usually have that opinion because of their religion?

[burning rain]

127. In a lot of cases, bitterness.....

because women didn't want to date them, and they see it as a way of denying women sex for pleasure.

[Regret My New Name]

128. That would make more sense if women used abortion for birth control...

I don't think many women take getting an abortion lightly, and would usually prefer not to have one by making sure they use birth control... How many women do you know who use abortion like that? I'm gonna guess none, right?

[burning rain]

129. Notice I said "they see it".....

I don't buy their nasty perspective, but I think that's often what it is. I have in mind those who both take a "pro-life" position and frequently rant about how women who have abortions are "sluts." As a rule, those men who blast women as "sluts" do so not because they sleep with however many other men, but because the "sluts" refuse to sleep with them. I have noticed that uptight "pro-life" women often deploy the "sluts who get abortions" rant, too.

[Regret My New Name]

131. Ahh, gotcha... Good deal.

[davidthegnome]

130. Interesting question

With a wide variety of possible answers, many of which have been given here.

There are, obviously, questions of responsibility, first of all. I do not think they should be taken lightly. Abortion is a risky medical procedure which should never be undertaken lightly, in my opinion. If a youth makes a mistake and isn't ready for parenthood, is abused, or has her health at risk due to the pregnancy, abortion to me, is morally acceptable.

Yet if someone completely capable of raising children chooses to abort for selfish reasons (which does indeed happen) then I would view it with distaste. I think it's morally incorrect and I'd frown upon it. Not that anyone has any obligation to give a damn if I frown upon it. Understand, I would frown upon it morally - legally she has the right to make that decision regardless of what anyone thinks of it.

At the same time, my former partner and I were two of those young statistics, unprepared for parenthood emotionally, or financially. People have told me over the years that because of our circumstances (youth and poverty, primarily) that it was our social obligation to abort. Naturally, such comments upset me, and upset my partner even more.

I disagree with them now as I disagreed with them years ago. I do believe that everyone has a right to an opinion - but no one has the right to enforce that opinion upon others. That goes for both sides of the debate, as well.

I will also say that I think some downplay a male's part in procreation. It is true that it is a woman's body, and therefor her decision. Yet it is also true that any potential father has every right and reason to be concerned.

One poster raised an interesting point when they said that if the male has no control over this, that neither should he be legally/financially obligated to the mother or child. I cautiously agree, it would of course, to some extent, depend on the circumstances.

It is a question rarely asked, so I will ask it and accept any flaming that comes my way as a result.

A man has no control over his female partner's (regardless of the circumstances) decision to, or not to abort. A man however, having no control over whether or not that child is born, still has no control over the fact that if the child is indeed born, he will be financially obligated to care for it for eighteen years.

Now the question to me would be, in this more enlightened era... whether or not that is the issue of "control", or even perhaps "oppression", working in reverse.

You can point out quite truthfully that the man could have kept it in his pants. But I think that we, who generally tend to scoff or smirk at abstinence only programs, realize how unlikely this is for either young males or females.

A man should not (and does not) have any final say over whether a child is born. Yet, in my opinion, he should have every right to decide whether or not he wishes to be a real father (beyond "genetic contributions").

My opinion, to be frank, is that if the woman wishes to have the child and the man does not, he should not then be legally or financially obligated, as abortion IS an option.

[varelse]

133. Every child has rights

and both of the parents have responsibilities toward it. The woman's choice to retain control over her own body during pregnancy does not in any way confer upon either parent the right to abandon the child after it is born.

The child is the one without options - that is why society "at large" is generally tasked with defending the rights of children to support and protection.

And that is also why so many men and women have strong opinions about abortion - because for some, the rights of children begin at conception, not at birth.

[defendandprotect]

140. You want society to protect fertilized eggs...? How exactly do you envision that happening--????

[varelse]

151. I'm pro-choice, and always have been

but I do recognize that many anti-abortion activists are absolutely convinced they are defending innocent human lives. They believe that our duty to protect and support children begins at the point of conception of the fetus. I believe that it begins at the birth of the infant.

[defendandprotect]

181. OK . . . then how do they propose to protect fertilized eggs . . . ???

[davidthegnome]

144. Yes

We all have responsibilities. What I am getting at is the fact that there is (in most cases) a potential Father in the equation as well as the Mother. If two mutually consenting adults decide to have a child - then separate later, then yes, the man should pay child support.

If two people are out getting drunk and decide to have a one night stand, as a result of which the woman becomes pregnant... then he is still legally obligated to provide financial support. Yes, either one of them could have used protection, though it is never 100% certain. Yes, either one of them could have refrained from having sex to begin with.

Nonetheless, the question remains. Should the potential Mother decide to have an abortion without informing the potential Father, that is also completely legal. He need not be told, under the law, and his opinion regarding the matter would not mean anything at all, under the law. Yet should she decide to have the child, his opinion, the circumstances of the situation, and his own personal circumstances matter not one bit, under the law.

He is legally obligated to provide financial support. Yet she is not legally obligated to inform him of the pregnancy, an abortion, or anything at all, unless or until she requires child support, and presses her case.

In my opinion, it is absurdly biased and unfair.

The point remains, that the child and the mother are entitled to the father's financial support. While the father is not even entitled to an opinion that holds any weight. Nor is he entitled to an accounting of how that money is being sent. Nor is he entitled to... well, anything, really. Visitation rights if he is fortunate.

[varelse]

152. Nature is "biased and unfair"

in that only one of the pair of biological parents of any given potential child is responsible for, and able to support the fetus until it is ready to be born. Men and women don't have the same equipment, and thus aren't able to play an equal role at this stage of development, but this is a result of evolution, not legislation.

The law as it currently stands gives women the right to make decisions regarding our own bodies. The right to decide when and with whom to procreate, still rests with both parties.

Condoms, vasectomies, and abstention are the options of the male half of the equation.

Birth control, sterilization, abstention, and abortion are all options of the female half.

Men have control of their own fertility, unless fraud (poking holes in a condom, for example) is perpetrated against them.

Women retain control over their own bodies because they have the same rights men do, albeit a different biologically assigned role in procreation (being the incubator).

However, the children born of any union, by law, retain rights granted to them by fact of their birth, to support from both biological parents. It is never a child's decision to be conceived or born. Their rights can not be denied because of choices made by the parents.

The responsibility can only be transferred if there are willing adoptive parents, or if one of the two biological parents agrees to act as sole guardian and support for the child.

[davidthegnome]

158. Nature may be biased and unfair

Yet it is our ability to rationalize, to reason - that sets us outside of it, at times.

I will not say that the male has no responsibility, I will say that the male does not have the rights he should be entitled to, given his financial obligation. Within the animal kingdom, there are very few cases (pack animals, herds, perhaps) in which the male sticks around at all. Could we say that is male nature? Perhaps.

Yet among us humans, that is often not the case (yes, it often IS as well). The point is that, in return for the legal obligation to provide financial support, the male should be entitled to more rights than he is. Such as an accounting of how that financial support is being used, how the money he sends to support his child/children is being spent. Regular medical and academic updates. Etc.

The present system does not grant these rights. Until or unless it does, I don't see how we can have a fair, balanced system. Which, as human beings, we are entirely capable of having.

[varelse]

171. Parental rights begin when the child is born - as do their obligations

The woman's right to control her own body is a separate issue.

[davidthegnome]

172. Again, the point is

That with those obligations should come *parental rights*. For the male, they do not.

[varelse]

173. That's not true

the biological father does have parental rights - they exist when the child is born, and are supported by law.

[Hello_Kitty]

134. Wow.

Yet if someone completely capable of raising children chooses to abort for selfish reasons (which does indeed happen) then I would view it with distaste. I think it's morally incorrect and I'd frown upon it. Not that anyone has any obligation to give a damn if I frown upon it. Understand, I would frown upon it morally - legally she has the right to make that decision regardless of what anyone thinks of it.

Selfish women have abortions.

My opinion, to be frank, is that if the woman wishes to have the child and the man does not, he should not then be legally or financially obligated, as abortion IS an option.

Why should the man have to pay for the kid? The woman could have had an abortion?


Yeah, I got your number. :eyes:

[davidthegnome]

143. Not surprising

You took what I said completely out of context and used it to launch a personal attack. On to ignore you go.

[Hello_Kitty]

146. ***THIS ASSHAT PUT ME ON IGNORE FOR QUOTING HIM DIRECTLY!!***

What a crybaby. :nopity:

[Mushroom]

145. Why wreck a good moment!

No condom, no concern, no opinion during sex. yup yup yup I get it... the lecture cums later.

[defendandprotect]

135. It's Frankenstein -- they're pissed Mother Nature gave everything to do

with childbearing to women -- nature favors females -- by a large percentage!!

57% to 43% . . . ????

We don't really know because so many women are killed.

That's the theory of Frankenstein -- Males as Creators!

[defendandprotect]

138. Why patriarchy--???? Same thing --

[tabbycat31]

141. this would not be an issue if men could get pregnant

[Joe the Revelator]

142. If you don't want your male's partner's opinion when it comes to abortion...

then if you decide to keep the baby, you shouldn't then ask him for support.



Yes, thats a radical idea, but so is the idea that the father of a child shouldn't have a say, one way or the other, over whether the baby is born or the pregnancy is terminated.

[Hello_Kitty]

147. So it should be the man's decision?

Because that's essentially what you're saying. Oh wait...I know...she can have the child if she wants but gets no support from the father. That's what taxpayers are for, right? :eyes:

Sorry, dude, but we pick up the tab for enough irresponsible breeders.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

148. Read my replies #118 and #122 up above.

I had a baby my husband didn't want, and he got custody and made me pay child support. He had an excellent job and insurance when we married. After we divorced and my first career disappeared thru no fault of mine, I had to pay child support with no job and no prospects of getting one. I have far more education than he does. BTW.

[Joe the Revelator]

149. It should be a joint decision to terminate or not.

The key being joint

[Hello_Kitty]

154. And what if there's an impasse?

Who gets to make the ultimate decision?

Hmm...let me guess...:eyes:

[Joe the Revelator]

157. Its a sticky situation, but ultimately its the woman's choice

But to act like a mans opinion has no weight, just because or in spite of the fact that he has a penis is silly.

[spoony]

160. Great points. n/t

[readmoreoften]

169. Well, that I agree with. He can have an opinion and feelings.

Often his decision to financially provide for the child or not does influence the woman's choice. But it is the woman's choice. He has the right to be disappointed.

[Liberal_in_LA]

183. So it's not really a joint decision. The women might weigh his opinion in HER decision but its HER

decision.

[Joe the Revelator]

188. It should be a joint decision though, and like I said, discounting the father's voice is poor logic.

[Scout]

230. no one is saying the man's opinion holds no weight because he has a penis

so you can quit making up strawmen arguments.

the man's opinion doesn't count for much because he is not the one who is pregnant and risking his life and well-being by squeezing one out. if he had a penis AND was the one risking his life and well-being then his opinion would count more.

[readmoreoften]

168. I call bullshit. When they disagree who decides?

Look, there are only four possible outcomes to your scenario:

1) Both agree on abortion
2) Both agree on raising child.
3) Man says no abortion/Woman says yes
4) Man says yes abortion/Woman says no

So what are you proposing? That the woman in #3 be FORCED to carry this man's child to term? That the woman in #4 be forced to have an abortion?

The financials are up for debate in my opinion, but not the decision to allow the blastocyst to form into an infant inside the female body. If the man wants his sperm-property back because "half" is his, perhaps he can have half the contents of the D&C and try to grow it on his own.

[cherish44]

165. Nope, she decides

It's not fair but that's the way it is. Mother Nature made women the bearers of children. If a man doesn't want to be a father, then he should a) not have vaginal intercourse or b) use a condom during vaginal intercourse or c) get a vascetomy. If he choses none of the above, he will have accept that he could possibly impregnate a woman and will have to accept her choices. Once the kid is born and out of the mother's body, well, lawyer up and do what you gotta do I guess. (but expect to have to slap some leather in child support...fair or not)

[dem629]

227. The woman took the same risks

and you could apply the same "if she didn't want to..." scenarios you place upon men.

But I won't hold my breath.

[Occam Bandage]

187. I would be completely in favor

of allowing men to request an abortion, and if the woman declines, for the man to be freed of any child-support obligations.

[Joe the Revelator]

204. When I was in high school I wanted to run for office on this premise.

[Mushroom]

217. I believe ya

:rofl:

[liquid diamond]

209. Now now. You know some people

have to have their cake and eat it too!

[Arugula Latte]

211. Nope -- When he assumes the risk of having sex, he assumes the risk of fatherhood.

End of story.

[dem629]

226. And when she assumes the risk of having sex, she assumes the risk of motherhood.

Unless she chooses not to. Or something.

The father should have the same rights. Anything less is misandry.

"End of story"...lol.

[Scout]

233. take it up with the creator

"The father should have the same rights. Anything less is misandry."

this is just laughable
:rofl:

[dem629]

244. Thanks for your content-free response.

[Mushroom]

246. sibling rivalry

Mommy, she has more body parts than me! x(

[cherish44]

159. The decision to carry a pregnancy to term is the woman's, it's her body

Sorry but that's just the bottom line. It might not be fair but that's the way mother nature created the reproductive process. If a man doesn't want to pay child support he should wear a damn condom. If a man wants to be a father, he should find a woman who wants to have a child. Sure birth control accidents happen and as do unplanned pregnancies. Guys, you must realize any time you put your penis into a woman's vagina, you could potentially be making a baby. And you will have to respect her will as to the future of that pregnancy. If she decides to have the baby (even if you don't want it) you're gonna have to pay child support. If she decides to abort (even if you do want the baby) there's nothing you can do about it, you don't control her or her womb.

[liquid diamond]

210. I knew there would be a response like this.

That's totally unfair. Women should be free to have abortions. Men should not impose on you, but at the same time and as a matter of fairness you can't force him to be financially responsible for a kid he did not want.

[sampsonblk]

213. Well thats perfectly ridiculous

Just because the law reads like that now, does not make it right.

[sendero]

163. Because some men know that if it is up to the woman..

... they will never sire any offspring.

[anonymous171]

170. Child support. nt

[Geek_Girl]

182. I really do think in many cases it's a control issue

for others it's cultural, it's what they were raised to believe.

For most politicians and talking heads I think it has more to do with controlling the religious right. We have 9 supreme court justices 7 of which were Republican appointed and yet Abortion is still legal. Why is that? If the GOP is so strongly against abortion then there would be no abortion. It's all a ruse to keep the sheeple in line.

[WinkyDink]

191. The most advanced societies are those whose females can control their child-bearing. Maybe some men

prefer those societies.

[BlueCollar]

196. As a man I care so much because

I believe in a woman's right to make personal choices

[Jennicut]

198. Men should care. A decision to have an abortion should be a joint decision

unless the man does not care either way. However, any outside person needs to stay out of a personal decision like this.

[NightHawk63]

203. Back in the days when I found Dennis Miller funny...

...he used to say "One Cock, No Vote". I actually agreed with that 100%. Even in a situation where I was the potential father, I just don't think I have the right to force a woman to carry my child if she didn't want to or wasn't physically able.

[marshall]

205. Why do women care about war?

We're all involved in this society, whether it's something that we are personally having to do ourselves or not.

[Initech]

212. I'm a guy and I dont get it either.

Seriously. I try to stay out of that debate as much as humanly possible.

[sampsonblk]

214. I think a woman should have to pay the father if she is aborting his baby against his will

That would solve the financial conundrum.

As another poster said, if a woman chooses to have her child against the father's wishes, he is liable for child support.

Then it should work both ways.

Children are of great value, although they are costly in the beginning. If a woman is going to destroy a man's child, she should have to compensate him.

[B Calm]

218. So how much money we talking? After all women have abortions just for fun, right?

[sampsonblk]

220. Bait and switch

I didn't say anything about abortions being for fun. I am talking about fundamental fairness.

[Scout]

232. so, how much money must a woman pay to a man to be "allowed"

to have an abortion?

answer the question

(oh, fundamental fairness my fat white ass)

[sampsonblk]

250. Allowed? Who said allowed?

Same financial process as child support - family court, after-the-fact.

That's fundamental fairness. Unless I am missing something.

[Scout]

261. your entire post SCREAMS "allowed"

look at the words you chose to use (my emphasis):

I think a woman should have to pay the father if she is aborting his baby against his will

That would solve the financial conundrum.

As another poster said, if a woman chooses to have her child against the father's wishes, he is liable for child support.

Then it should work both ways.

Children are of great value, although they are costly in the beginning. If a woman is going to destroy a man's child, she should have to compensate him.

i find it interesting that she is "just" a woman, yet he is "a father" ... if she's aborting against his wishes then it's his baby ... if she is carrying to term against his wishes it's her baby ... if she's destroying "his" child she should have to pay him.

you really are very transparent.

[Mushroom]

219. Ka-ching Ka-ching, baby!

Would the child's value be measured in Carats, or Carrots?

:rofl:

[sampsonblk]

221. What's it measured in now? (nt)

[Mushroom]

222. Damned if I know

It depends on the father doing the measuring.

If he has his eye on a boat, then I'm guessing around $30 - $45,000 fully loaded, though I don't know the going rate for mental anguish. It could also cover a heavy duty trailer, a new honker truck, docking fees, fishing gear, worms, gas, a few kegs of beer, a box of beef jerky, 10 pounds of potato salad...

:shrug:

[sampsonblk]

224. What would he have to pay her, if the roles were reversed

That's your answer. Equality.

[Mushroom]

257. A man should pay a woman respect - it costs nothing

A man should pay a hefty fine and compensation to a woman for not wearing a condom while inside her, exposing her to pregnancies, abortions, and sexually transmitted diseases.


Make love, not war!

:patriot:

Support The Condoms!

[Fleshdancer]

225. Well there's a scary new business opportunity

Needle, meet condom.

All this does is encourage women to lie about the pregnancy in the first place.

[sampsonblk]

249. ...and we know they never do that now, right? - nt

[Skittles]

255. you sound like a complete idiot

[sampsonblk]

258. LOL If that's the best you can do, then I must be onto something

Where is your point? Or are your thinking skills limited to name-calling?

[Scout]

262. i think you are probably the only one who didn't get her point n/t

[sampsonblk]

263. Another devastating argument

I am floored.

[Scout]

264. that's your problem

i wasn't making an argument. i was making a statement.

you're not worth actually discussing anything with, else i would have done so.

[omega minimo]

216. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5519277&mesg_id=5519285

[laureloak]

240. Look at the men holding the anti-abortion flags at rallies.

Crusty old creeps that nobody in their right mind would want to mate with.

[dem629]

245. That kind of stuff cuts both ways, for sure.

[Skittles]

256. you're just anti-crusty old creep, laureloak

yes INDEED

[MasonJar]

265. I'll give men more credence when they start carrying a child for 9 months and

then go through the pangs of childbirth. Even then I will give their opinions no more weight than my own. Why should I?