The part that gets me is the Swine Flu is killing healthy young people.

[MrPerson]

Age 25-45.

That gets my attention.

[seabeyond]

1. 68 out of 1000 died, gets mine. but true that. n/t

[MrPerson]

4. You should get a Oskar Schindler avatar if you like Liam Neeson.

[seabeyond]

13. my ten yr old son

picked this out for me. i dont watch star wars, but he decided this character is who i am. i have had it for a couple yrs. time to change.

i do like the man. sad what he is going thru.

thanks

[Medusa]

2. That's what the flu pandemic after WWI did too;

it first attacked the young and healthy. That would seem to imply it is something older folks might have partial immunity too????

[MrPerson]

6. The key is to stay cranky.

[graywarrior]

29. It'll never touch me then.

[dipsydoodle]

14. They didn't have penicillin

which its now reckoned would've saved most of all ages.

Apart from that the reason it may be age related is that old farts like me who had either or both '50s Asian Flu or '60s Hong Kong flu have alledgedly got limited immunity from flu variations of almost any description.

[MrPerson]

15. OTOH their pee smelled way better.

[stray cat]

16. Penicillin doesn't work against viruses - it might help against some secondary infections

but antibiotics are not effective against viruses.

[MrPerson]

18. *hit head with hand* Doh!! I shoulda known that.

[dipsydoodle]

25. I'm aware

but they've concluded recently that most died of secondary bacteriological infections - not the virus. Hence if penicillin has been around the death toll would've been far lower.

[Occam Bandage]

17. Antibiotics don't do shit against viruses. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

21. Flu is a virus; antibiotics work on bacterial infections.

Penicillin does nothing at all for flu.

[dipsydoodle]

26. I didn't say it it did.

n/t

[uppityperson]

31. Penicillin would have helped against the secondary, fatal, pneumonia

Flu can set you up for bacterial pneumonia. My young adult kid had pneumonia last month, after the flu. Glad got to doc on time to get antibiotics, was pretty sick. Got sick really fast also. Thought was fine until suddenly got really sick.

I think this is common with young adults. You think you are doing ok until suddenly you aren't.

And I know you know about penicillin, wanted to point it out for those saying "antibiotics don't work against viruses".

[Spider Jerusalem]

38. No it wouldn't, because the pneumonia wasn't bacterial in origin.

Google 'cytokine storm'.

[dipsydoodle]

41. Well try telling that

to the majority who died from bacterial infections, not viral ones.

"The Bush administration spent more than $50 billion after the 2001 anthrax attacks to protect the country from bioterrorism attacks and flu pandemics; some of that money went to increase domestic manufacturing capacity for flu vaccines. Even so, officials have said that during a pandemic the United States would not be able to rely on vaccines manufactured largely in Europe because of possible border closures and supply shortages. And the situation is similar with antibiotics like penicillin; researchers have found that during the 1918 flu pandemic, most victims died of bacterial infections, not viral ones."

REPEAT :
"
And the situation is similar with antibiotics like penicillin; researchers have found that during the 1918 flu pandemic, most victims died of bacterial infections, not viral ones."

www.hpnonline.com/du-print/HPN_Daily_Update090120.doc That was just a convenient link

[uppityperson]

42. many pneumonias post flu are bacterial and penicillin would and does help

Sometimes it doesn't, due to things like that, but it can help with bacterial infections.

Edited to add that "cillins" have saved my life and that of my child after having pneumonia post flu. Of course it won't always work, but sometimes it does.

[Maru Kitteh]

39. Penicillin is an anti-bacterial. Influenza is a VIRUS. It's not even apples and oranges, more like

apples and spiders.

Antibiotics do NOTHING against viruses, including Influenza and the common cold.

[dipsydoodle]

40. Try reading what had gone before

and then engage your brain.

[Spider Jerusalem]

24. Not partial immunity;

stronger immune response in healthy young adults led to a 'cytokine storm'.

When the immune system is fighting pathogens, cytokines signal immune cells such as T-cells and macrophages to travel to the site of infection. In addition, cytokines activate those cells, stimulating them to produce more cytokines. Normally, this feedback loop is kept in check by the body. However, in some instances, the reaction becomes uncontrolled, and too many immune cells are activated in a single place. The precise reason for this is not entirely understood but may be caused by an exaggerated response when the immune system encounters a new and highly pathogenic invader. Cytokine storms have potential to do significant damage to body tissues and organs. If a cytokine storm occurs in the lungs, for example, fluids and immune cells such as macrophages may accumulate and eventually block off the airways, potentially resulting in death.

The cytokine storm (hypercytokinemia) is the systemic expression of a healthy and vigorous immune system resulting in the release of more than 150 inflammatory mediators (cytokines, oxygen free radicals, and coagulation factors). Both pro-inflammatory cytokines (such as Tumor necrosis factor-alpha, Interleukin-1, and Interleukin-6) and anti-inflammatory cytokines (such as interleukin 10 and interleukin 1 receptor antagonist) are elevated in the serum of patients experiencing a cytokine storm.

Cytokine storms can occur in a number of infectious and non-infectious diseases including graft versus host disease (GVHD), adult respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), sepsis, avian influenza, smallpox, and systemic inflammatory response syndrome (SIRS).<2>

It is believed that cytokine storms were responsible for many of the deaths during the 1918 influenza pandemic, which killed a disproportionate number of young adults.<1> In this case, a healthy immune system may have been a liability rather than an asset. Preliminary research results from Hong Kong also indicated this as the probable reason for many deaths during the SARS epidemic in 2003. Human deaths from the bird flu H5N1 usually involve cytokine storms as well. Recent reports of high mortality among healthy young adults in the Mexican swine flu pandemic point to cytokine storms as being responsible for these deaths<4>.

(Source: Wikipedia)

[Zenlitened]

30. Hmmmm... interesting info. Thanks for posting.

...It is believed that cytokine storms were responsible for many of the deaths during the 1918 influenza pandemic...

It sounds like a cytokine storm can produce symptoms that look like pneumonia, which a layperson (me!) might assume could be easily treated with antibiotics.

But the ever-useful Wikipedia informs me that "pneumonia" describes a set of symptoms, not necessarily the cause of those symptoms:

Pneumonia is an inflammatory illness of the lung. Frequently, it is described as lung parenchyma/alveolar inflammation and abnormal alveolar filling with fluid...

...Pneumonia can result from a variety of causes, including infection with bacteria, viruses, fungi, or parasites, and chemical or physical injury to the lungs. Its cause may also be officially described as idiopathic—that is, unknown—when infectious causes have been excluded.

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonia

I admit, I'd assumed that pneumonia could simply be knocked down with antibiotics -- case closed, threat over. Not as simple as that, I now realize. More from Wiki:

Viral pneumonia caused by influenza A may be treated with rimantadine or amantadine, while viral pneumonia caused by influenza A or B may be treated with oseltamivir or zanamivir. These treatments are beneficial only if they are started within 48 hours of the onset of symptoms.

Emphasis added.

[uppityperson]

44. cytokine storms are interesting. The body is an amazing thing

intricate, reacting, over reacting, under reacting, on and on.

[Pab Sungenis]

35. Actually, they found that the 1918 flu caused autoimmune response.

The virus attacked white blood cells, which then would cause the body to fight itself. The stronger your immune system, the deadlier it was. Thus it spared infants and the aged, but the young and healthy got sicker.

Didn't they clone a sample of the 1918 strain to study it recently?

[rurallib]

3. According to NPR news report it is getting CDC's attention also

To them that is a very scary development.

[AllentownJake]

5. I trust the CDC

When the CDC tells me to take precautions for my area I'll do it. Till than I'm going to keep a pretty level head about it.

[MrPerson]

7. Nose picking has to stop.

[AllentownJake]

9. you watching me?

[MrPerson]

11. Apparently people are to keep their hands off their face, nose, mouth.

I immediately went for the cheap joke.

[AllentownJake]

19. I was going for a DUZY.

[Skink]

10. You can pick your nose, you can pick your friends, but...

you can't..:-)

[kaiden]

8. That's exactly what happened with the Spanish Flu.

Young people's immune systems were so healthy that they "over" attacked the virus.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

...Among the conclusions of this research is that the virus kills via a cytokine storm (overreaction of the body's immune system) which explains its unusually severe nature and the concentrated age profile of its victims. The strong immune systems of young adults ravaged the body, whereas the weaker immune systems of children and middle-aged adults caused fewer deaths.

<snip>

The influenza strain was unusual in that this pandemic killed many young adults and otherwise healthy victims; typical influenzas kill mostly infants (aged 0–2 years), the elderly, and the immunocompromised. Another oddity was that this influenza outbreak was widespread in summer and fall (in the Northern Hemisphere). Typically, influenza is worse in the winter months.

A wonderful book to read on the Spanish Flu is Historian John Barry's "The Great Influenza: The Epic Story of the 1918 Pandemic,"

[MrPerson]

12. I'm OK, I know little Spanish.

[sarge43]

28. Another good source on the 1918 pandemic

is PBS DVD American Experience: Influenza 1918

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

43. "The Great Influenza" spends a LOT of time on the overall history

on the practice of Western medicine. There actually was very little knowledge for most of our history and real advancements in medical practice were still nascent when the 1918 flu hit. If nothing else, the book gives you an appreciation for the huge strides we've made in a relatively short time.

[Coyote_Bandit]

20. Being young and healthy

doesn't make you "bulletproof". Never has.

We have just been fortunate enough in recent history to be something less tha cognizant of that.

[MrPerson]

22. I'm stopping with the salads and switching to fries pronto

You can't be too careful.

[Coyote_Bandit]

23. Anything you do

can kill you. Some quicker than others of course. And doing nothing at all can also kill you.

May the fat and grease and carbs in those fries bring you imunity.....

[sarge43]

27. As did the 1918-19 flu pandemic.

It caused more deaths in the army than did combat.

[northernlights]

32. can you cite a source for that?

I had read it too, up until today. But I don't remember where.

And now I am reading the opposite -- that in Mexico it killed the normal flu victims -- very young and elderly, immune-compromised...

[Joe the Revelator]

33. Its called a cytokine storm

Essentially, the stronger your autoimmune system, the more it overreacts, and typically your lungs are overwhelmed by a flood of antibodies.

[elocs]

34. The 1918 flu pandemic seemed to spare the very young and older adults.

http://www.huliq.com/11/72680/1918-spanish-flu-records-could-hold-key-solving-future-pandemics

"In the 1918/19 pandemic, mortality was greatest among previously healthy young adults, when normally you would expect that elderly people would be the most likely to die,'' Professor Mathews says "We don't really understand why children and older adults were at lesser risk.

"One explanation may be that children were protected by innate immunity while older people may have been exposed to a similar virus in the decades before 1890 which gave them partial but long-lasting protection.

"Those born after 1890 were young adults in 1918. They did not have the innate immunity of children and as they weren't exposed to the pre-1890 virus they had little or no immunity against the 1918 virus. We can't prove it but it is a plausible explanation."

Another striking feature is that the pandemic appeared in three waves, in the summer and autumn of 1918 and then the following winter.

One theory being examined to explain why some people were only affected in the second or third wave is that because of recent exposure to seasonal influenza virus they had short-lived protection against the new pandemic virus.

"The attack rates in the big cities weren't as high and this is probably because many people had been exposed to ordinary flu viruses, giving short-lived immunity,'' he says.

[elocs]

36. A good book (novel) about the 1918 pandemic is "The Last Town on Earth" by Thomas Mullen.

http://www.thomasmullen.net/reviews/

"The Last Town on Earth wraps the reader in its quiet power. As the characters become trapped by their town, we become increasingly trapped by our own fears and hopes. Thomas Mullen's debut is stirring, classic storytelling, with a deep resonance between the book's moment in history and our own times."

It is about a small lumber town founded on socialistic principles and how the pandemic impacts its citizens and their ideals.

[stuntcat]

37. that's what surprised me too

In the report this morning on the radio they said the people who died were younger than me.