Necroconservative Social Disorder

[H2O Man]

During the period that a number of DUers participated in the "Plame Threads," one of the points that I attempted to make was that to properly assess that or any political scandal, one needs to understand both "how" and "why" events took the course they did. Last week, I was among a number of DUers who posted something about the Bush-Cheney torture policies. My OP ( "Six Dimensions of Scandal") sparked a lot of interest, including responses that added extremely important information on the topic.

As that OP focused on the "how" the scandals took place, I thought it might be interesting to take an opportunity to look at "why" events went the way that they did. In doing so, I will look at reasons that people prone to criminal activity that is defined by its violence, seem to become entrenched in positions of power within the federal government.

I fully expect – and indeed, welcome – responses from those who with backgrounds in psychology and/or sociology, who have learned to view things in a different context than I do. Not only are they entitled to their opinion, as much as I am to mine, but the other members of this forum are entitled to, and benefit from, hearing other perspectives.

My views are largely influenced by a combination of two sources: (a) Viktor Frankl’s belief that human beings have an internal "will to (find) meaning" in their lives; and (b) Erick Fromm’s belief that all healthy human beings have internal "biophilic ethics," which is a love of the life-force, and a passion for growth. Both of these offer positive benefits to individuals and the larger society.

In response to some of the recent outbursts of violence in American communities, I recently posted an essay concerning labels such as "crazy" and "insane" to describe some murderers. I noted that there is an area of human thinking/behavior that is closely related to "nature/nurture," but is best viewed separately. As Spinoza noted in his "Ethics," there are types of thinking and behavior that are forms of mental defect, but that take meaning that can only be understood in the context of the larger society. Frankl spoke of the "collective neurosis of our day, and one that could only be cured on a collective level." And Fromm’s most important works focus on the differences between a "sane society" and an "insane society."

An insane society is one in which the biophilic passions are frustrated, stifled, and mutate into a diseased force. It is related to Freud’s attempt to define a "death wish," so to speak, in individuals. Though Freud’s specific ideas were generally rejected, Fromm did not throw the baby out with the bath water. He refined the concept, to describe the thwarted biophilic potential in individuals, within the context of the larger culture.

In doing so, Fromm used some labels that are generally associated with human behavior in the context of sexuality, but which are also accurate descriptions of a much wider range of human behaviors. The two that are important for this discussion are "sadomasochism" and "necrophilia."

We find a form of sadomasochism in many relationships, the most important for this discussion being in the workplace. Many people who are employed in a business or agency with tiers of responsibility/supervision have experience with a person who brown-noses their bosses – at least to their face – no matter what degree of self-humiliation is required. They can always be counted on to mistreat those employees who are under them. This mistreatment often lends evidence of their having invested a significant amount of time in identifying the most degrading way to treat other human beings, for their own personal satisfaction.

In many workplaces, such a person will not be appreciated or promoted. Only in an unhealthy work environment will they rise to any meaningful level. In general terms, this is often determined by the nature of what the business involves. Certain work environments are more likely to this type of personality.

The second issue to consider is necrophilia. In this context, it has to do with a person’s manner of relating to other people, and to the world around them. It is the opposite of biophilic passion: Fromm describes the person who is prone to "the passion to transform that which is alive into something that is not alive; to destroy for the sake of destruction; the exclusive interest in all that is purely mechanical/ It is the passion to tear apart living structures."

In a biophilic society, the Dr. Strangeloves do not tend to rise to power; rather, the small ones are easily identified as annoying, and the larger ones as dangerous. In an unhealthy society, they tend to become entrenched in bureaucratic positions that provide them with power. The small ones are easily identified as republicans, and the larger ones as, for example, cogs in Dick Cheney’s machine.

When we look at Washington, DC, since at least 1968, we can see that there has been a steady growth in the cluster of malignant character-disordered "leaders." This has been true in each of the three branches of the federal government. It is equally true, of course, in the wider business world. The connections are as obvious as they are closely related.

Just as in the medical field, the psychological outlook of a patient plays a role in the outcome of treatment, so too will it in the treatment of the disease that threatens the life of this nation. We must understand both how and why tumors such as Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, and George W. Bush have been produced. But we also must understand that it is only the biophilic passions that can heal our society.

Peace,
H2O Man

[groovedaddy]

1. I'm not an "expert" - degree in poli sci- but I think there is a sound basis to your contention.

This is essentially the basis for creating a fascist or statist society, where the individual's only purpose is to serve the state. Having sociopaths in positions of power helps to instill fear in the general population, squelching dissent, etc.

[H2O Man]

9. Right.

It is also a feature of empire, and can be seen in a number of long gone socities that hd industries to mass produce items for consumption. In this sense, "industry" is not limited to a large factory with smoke stacks, but rather to means of production. When society goes beyond food and comforts, to producing weapons on a large scale, there also tends to be monuments to death at the population centers.

[Me.]

2. Let Me Begin

By posting a link to the previous thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5518578

[H2O Man]

10. Thank you.

Much appreciated.

[KoKo]

43. Thanks...train of thought in these times of media dislocation is really

helpful. What I read before I don't seem to retain given all the other "stuff" read and bombarded at me inbetween.

I wonder we don't all suffer from some kind of brain disconnect where our "retention skills" are put on "back burner" to always process the new, incoming data,which seems to hit the front of our "To Do" and "Priority" list in our brains first...so that we can just KEEP UP! and be on the Latest Info Treadmill which rewards the "Latest" over the "Past." Whatever.....

:eyes:

[Spazito]

3. It seems to take a catalyst to bring "tumors such as Karl Rove, Dick Cheney...

and George W. Bush" as well as others of the same ilk from being a contained tumor to that of being metastasized to the point of destroying 'the body' which hosts it.

"Tumors such as Karl Rove, Dick Cheney and George W. Bush" are not new but re-occurring throughout history and, sadly, will continue to re-occur even if the current tumors are 'excised' through the adherence of the rule of law.

[H2O Man]

11. Right.

Fromm writes about how a Heinrich Himmler can be born into any society in terms of genetics; inadequate nurturing in many cultures could likewise produce a deficient human being such as Himmler; but it takes a special set of circumstances for a person that warped to acquire political/social power. The fertile ground required is not simply something that type of individual creates; it is societies' responsibility to keep it from happening. That includes preventive measures, as well as prosecution for war crimes.

[Spazito]

23. It is interesting, if we look at the catalyst that brought forth Himmler et al into...

positions of power was, in large part, as a result the Treaty of Versailles at the end of WWI whereby the reparations imposed on Germany were so onerous as to bring Germany to the brink of economic collapse. One could say "society" did take responsibility and put in preventative measures by adopting the Marshall Plan for the rebuilding of Europe as opposed to imposing harsh reparations on Germany or, indeed, Japan.

One could also say that society was responsive to the horrors perpetrated by Hitler, Himmler et al by forming the United Nations, and under the auspices of the UN, amending the Geneva Conventions. These actions could also be seen as preventative measures as well.

9/11 was certainly a catalyst that allowed the cabal to extend their reach and power more easily than had it not happened but would they have still been able to enact much of what they did even without it?

[Me.]

4. There Have Been A Lot Of Discussions Regarding The Terms Sociopath & Psychopath

How do you relate these to the three tumors you named and how does/does plain old power hungry and egomanias come into play?

As to your theory as to what can heal our country, I believe that may already be in play. It may be why, thought they may not understand the underpinning reason, that people are rejecting the Con alternative party whose number of people identifying with them, has dropped, as reported today, to 21 %.

[H2O Man]

12. Too often,

these terms are used incorrectly. That includes by some lay people, among others. Hence, for the sake of this discussion, I used other descriptive words, in the context that Fromm did. But you are right in that the words sociopath and psychopath can properly be used in discussions about Bush.

For people such as Rove and Cheney to access the highest levels of power -- and keep in mind that Rove was fired by Bush1 and Cheney had failed to get Ford elected, and his own attempt to be considered as a presidential candidate never amounted to anything -- they needed a vehicle. George W. Bush was, by no coincidence, the vehicle for both.

In terms of Bush, I remember having discussions about his sadistic character, when his "friend" Scotty McClellan decided to "retire." When they walked out on the White House lawn together, it was obvious that Scotty was very upset, and almost crying. Bush had a gleeful smirk on his mug -- he enjoyed his friend's pain and discomfort. At that point, Americans could look into Bush's eyes, and see his lack of soul, to borrow a phrase.

After 9/11, it did not take a great deal of persuasion by VP Cheney to get Bush to fully support things such as bombing Iraq and killing untold numbers of totally innocent human beings, or to order the torture of others in the name of "freedom" and "democracy."

[Me.]

20. Are All These Connections Made Subconsciously?

Or were Cheney and Rove actively seeking someone to fill the roll. I know that when Rove met * he reportedly fe;t he had found the one. Of course this was interpreted differently that what we're discussing here.

Once in a while I have wondered if *43's presidency was, in some small part, Cheney's revenge on the father.

[H2O Man]

47. In both cases,

there were individuals looking to further their own careers. Rove has stated that seeing Bush the first time was a wet dream come true for him. Cheney understood the field of candidates that were going to run in 2000, and staked his claim. They both made conscious choices.

[myrna minx]

5. K&R n/t

[H2O Man]

13. Thanks.

[byronius]

6. Excellent analysis. One can see it in mainstream media as well.

Purposeful disinformation that destabilizes and rends the social fabric -- for profit. For every Olbermann or Maddow, there seem to be three Limbaughs and Hannitys, peddling paranoia and blantant falsehoods. Social cancers. "The passion to tear apart living structures" fits perfectly.

[H2O Man]

15. Exactly.

The mainstream media is little more than a factory that produces misinformation and disinformation for mass consumption. The cable news serves the "fast food" that is as unhealthy for our society as any steady diet of greasy, high-calory, low-nutrition "happy meals." (There are, as you note, some outstanding exceptions to that rule.)

[whistler162]

46. Actually it is bilge water.....

this is the same crap that Republicans/Neoconservatives have been preaching for years! Only this time someone has tried to rewrite it from a "progressive/liberal" point.

[byronius]

52. What are you talking about?

[robertpaulsen]

7. This reminds me of a study in the Guardian six years ago.

Study of Bush's psyche touches a nerve

* Julian Borger in Washington
* The Guardian, Wednesday 13 August 2003


A study funded by the US government has concluded that conservatism can be explained psychologically as a set of neuroses rooted in "fear and aggression, dogmatism and the intolerance of ambiguity".

As if that was not enough to get Republican blood boiling, the report's four authors linked Hitler, Mussolini, Ronald Reagan and the rightwing talkshow host, Rush Limbaugh, arguing they all suffered from the same affliction.

All of them "preached a return to an idealised past and condoned inequality".

Republicans are demanding to know why the psychologists behind the report, Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition, received $1.2m in public funds for their research from the National Science Foundation and the National Institutes of Health.

The authors also peer into the psyche of President George Bush, who turns out to be a textbook case. The telltale signs are his preference for moral certainty and frequently expressed dislike of nuance.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/aug/13/usa.redbox


As bad as Bush is, something tells me that an examination of Cheney would uncover a pathology far more terrifying. Then again, is there a pathology worse than what Hitler & Mussolini had?

[Me.]

8. A Set Of Neuroses

Intensely interesting. And, what is the genesis of the set, why are they so afraid?

[robertpaulsen]

16. What's interesting is just prior to reading H2O Man's OP...

I was reading about Justin Frank's book Bush on the Couch. Fascinating analysis:

"...a careful consideration of the evidence suggests that behinds Bush's affable exterior operates a powerful but obscure delusional system that drives his behavior. The most precise psychiatric term to describe his pathology is most frequently used to identify a particular condition exhibited by schizophrenics that, as we'll see, has broader applications as well: megalomania. The psychological concept of megalomania refers as much to a mental attitude as to actual behavioral manifestations. . . Freud calls megalomania a protective delusion of power and greatness that serves as a defense against fear, against paranoid anxieties..."

"The paranoid patient gets rid of his intolerable sense of guilt through unconscious mechanisms of denial and projection. He denies his primitive hostile or erotic impulses and projects them - that is, he ascribes them to other persons. Projection is rarely done at random. Usually the patient unwittingly selects, as the alleged carriers of his own impulses and his own guilt, persons who have correspondingly minimal unconscious trends..."

"...incapable of safely confronting the true extent of his own sadism, Bush had to project his sadism onto an enemy of his own creation - one he entered the White House ready to demonize and destroy; one whose annihilation would serve to protect his own fragile, deluded sense of self."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/crazy-bush-compares-democ_b_70829.html?page=4&show_comment_id=10310664

[bleever]

18. A lot of this overlaps with Sarah Palin's personality,

described previously here as "narcissistic personality disorder".

[robertpaulsen]

22. Oh God, she scares the Hell out of me!

Talk about denial and projection. Just watching every little move she makes in relation to the fracas between her daughter and ex is a veritable trainwreck. On one hand, I would love to see her be the GOP nominee in 2012. At this point, she'd do worse than Goldwater in '64. But on the other hand, what if she stole the election? :wow::scared:

[H2O Man]

24. That fact that she

was considered for VP is strong evidence that Frankl is right in saying there are collective illnesses.

[KoKo]

31. In a culture which laud's Entertainment Figures...she sort of fits in, though...

and the Right Wing is very good in figuring out their folks who capture the imaginations of their followers. Think of how Blagojevich has captured the Right and the Media...and consider Palin as his "Sister." :-(

[bobthedrummer]

55. KICK!

:fistbump:

[Me.]

21. One Has To Wonder

How and why he has amassed such deadly guilt. And is his a case of nature or nurture?

[librechik]

14. My husband and I are studying this book:

Evil Genes: Why Rome Fell, Hitler Rose, Enron Failed, and My Sister Stole My Mother's Boyfriend

http://www.amazon.com/Evil-Genes-Hitler-Mothers-Boyfriend/dp/1591026652/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240870090&sr=8-1

is very useful to understand these folks who seem incapable of empathy or nuanced thinking. It seems their brain functions prevent them (brain scan studies included) from taking on new info, or of responding properly in an emotional situation. Now we look at each other and say "He's got the gene" if we run into a Dick Cheney type.

These folks can't really be blamed for their disability, or even their parents are essentially blameless for the bad behavior. They sure make it inconvenient for the rest of us. Not to say deadly.

[H2O Man]

25. That sounds interesting.

Thanks for the link.

[azul]

37. Empathy. Lack of it a requisite to be a scrooge, or natural killer?

Good OP, Man. The group ethics thing is what is disturbing when aggression is rewarded in societies.

Looks like there may be some hard wiring and anatomy and gene controls on this psychology:
----------


MIRROR NEURONS AND THE BRAIN IN THE VAT <1.10.06>
by V.S. Ramachandran

Iaccomo Rizzolati and Vittorio Gallasse discovered mirror neurons. They found that neurons in the ventral premotor area of macaque monkeys will fire anytime a monkey performs a complex action such as reaching for a peanut, pulling a lever, pushing a door, etc. (different neurons fire for different actions). Most of these neurons control motor skill (originally discovered by Vernon Mountcastle in the 60's), but a subset of them, the Italians found, will fire even when the monkey watches another monkey perform the same action. In essence, the neuron is part of a network that allows you to see the world "from the other persons point of view," hence the name “mirror neuron."

Researchers at UCLA <1> found that cells in the human anterior cingulate, which normally fire when you poke the patient with a needle ("pain neurons"), will also fire when the patient watches another patient being poked. The mirror neurons, it would seem, dissolve the barrier between self and others. I call them "empathy neurons" or "Dalai Llama neurons". (I wonder how the mirror neurons of a masochist or sadist will respond to another person being poked.) Dissolving the "self vs. other" barrier is the basis of many ethical systems, especially eastern philosophical and mystical traditions. This research implies that mirror neurons can be used to provide rational rather than religious grounds for ethics (although we must be careful not to commit the is/ought fallacy).

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/ramachandran06/ramachandran06_index.html

[glitch]

17. What an interesting post.

I too am not so much interested in how people become sociopaths but how a culture promotes them to the point where it becomes sociopathic itself. I used to be fascinated watching the same thing happen in business, seeing a fairly healthy dynamic turn into a very unhealhty dynamic, caused just by one "bad apple" manager promoting the other "bad apples". Those old cliches really are true, bad apples, fish rots from the head etc etc.

The only way that I have ever seen these unhealthy communities heal is to remove the infection from a position of influence, show the whole community that infection does not get promoted, and then move on. I think this can be done in a healing way, it does not have to look like "retribution" but it does have to be obvious enough to everyone that the behavior is known and not approved by the community.

K & R

[H2O Man]

26. Those people

who are "bad apples" can make other people's lives miserable, and cause a business/agency to experience all types of problems. There are times when one of my relatives or friends describes issues in their workplace, when I'm mighty glad to be retired.

[glitch]

28. Oh they do. And when the company's only asset is their people they can bring a company down.

All the way down, as in defunct. I watched it happen and it was like watching a living organism get sick and die. Very sad, and nothing could be done about it because the people who could change the dynamic weren't listening. Very much like the past 8 years in the USA, on a smaller, less extreme, scale.
But watching people coddle the malignant narcissists in power was creepily familiar.

[KoKo]

32. true...those who went through the "coporate culture revisions" since Reagan

have had to revise whatever "code of ethics" they might have had...and often times ditch family and friends to get along in it. The Sevice/Financial/Sports Community as opposed to the Agrarian based model of earlier years just didn't work well in the New Model of "Flash & Dash" and "Trade and Switch" and "Newer is Better"..."give me something to talk about with my Million Dollar Peer Group...Sky Box, McMansion, Toy Girl/Boy...multiples of everything...including trophy children."

It's something NEW... it has replaced the old. Maybe it really IS the way of the future. It's hard to know and to place old values on the new, that are fair, also. ..I sometimes think. Worrying about judging the very new vs. the other when we all evolve. The transition is difficult sometimes to fathom, and to avoid being judgmental about it all.

[bleever]

19. Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a valuable tool

to use in considering questions like this, in my opinion.

For those unfamiliar with it, it posits that when basic needs are met, the foundation is built for healthy (i.e., biophilic) growth.



When we have food, water, and air, our body is alive at the most basic level. Without that, nothing else happens.

When are bodies are cared for in a basic biological way, the next need is for safety and security, and a basic sense that we are not in any danger, and confident of our ability to physically survive.

When we are confident of survival, our biophilic forces and instincts turn next to having a family, and friends, and a community. People around us with whom our security and survival are enhanced. Having a family or community, the next need (or possibility) to flower is the possibility of love, and an emotional sense that one can love, and is loved.

Only having fulfilled all these prior, more fundamental needs, is it possible for genuine self-esteem to happen. Without fulfillment of the more basic needs, the ability to have a mature and powerful sense of one's own self-worth cannot occur. Without a sense of self-worth, one cannot have basic empathy or compassion, because seeing oneself as worthless or undeserving, that sense of worthlessness is projected on to everyone else.

For those whose needs on these four levels are met, the possibility opens up to what Maslow calls Self-Actualization, wherein creativity, compassionate activity, and a sense of meaning can be experienced.


Two thoughts: people like G.W. Bush, Rumsfeld, and Cheney exhibit signs of not having developed authentic self-esteem. It is replaced in their characters by false bravado, a tendency to bully, and a desire to control other people. Their biophilic impulse is subverted at this level of psychological development, and becomes like an ingrown toenail of the soul. The nail keeps growing, but being misdirected, its growth causes destruction and pain. All attempts to deal with the negative effects are made from the framework of the bitter bully, and exacerbate the manifesting destruction.

Second: tyrants like the above-mentioned fellows depend for the power on others in the population at large who are at a similar level of frustrated psychological development. They feed the fear and anger of these people. It's no mistake that right wing radio foments hatred of "liberals", while progressive talk radio attacks the policies and actions of conservatives without demonizing them personally in the same way.


On a hopeful note, if Obama (and we) build a society where people are better fed, safer, have stabler communities, and see the values of love and community honored and upheld, we may see a lessening of the ranks of those who through deprivation never learn to value themselves, and the grip of the sick bullies may grow weaker and weaker.

[H2O Man]

27. Thanks for posting this.

It is certainly very important. (One of my sons in college enjoys putting everything in the context of Maslow's hierarchy; there are times that I'm amazed at how well he clarifies situations using this. It is worth noting that one of the most creative social/political activists from the 1960s was a student of Maslow. Can any DUer identify who I am speaking of?)

[dweller]

33. if not Fromm

then i'd guess Ram Dass.

RD Laing also is a wild guess.

i'm full of wild guesses...
dp

[bleever]

34. I guessed Saul Alinsky, then Malcolm X,

but think I missed too...

[Patsy Stone]

54. Knowing you...

I'm guessing it's B.F. Skinner.

:hi:

[H2O Man]

59. Close.

Abbie Hoffman.

[Patsy Stone]

60. Thanks for the answer; I was terribly curious.

I thought you were going for the Skinner/DU pun. :)

[MedleyMisty]

38. I really like Maslow's theory

Some people say that "self-actualization" is a tool of capitalism, but I don't get it. Isn't the point to make sure that everyone has what they need, and isn't that the opposite of capitalism?

[MedleyMisty]

39. Googled self-actualization and socialism more

Turns out that Maslow was a socialist, at least at one point in his life. Also apparently Marxism has a similar idea - that humans need to survive, enjoy, and develop. So why is Maslow's theory ridiculed as a tool of capitalist oppression?

I did find something that ties in with the couple of recent Ayn Rand threads - an article trying to tie Rand's philosophy to self-actualization. But that just basically borrows the term and then puts a completely different meaning on it.

[bleever]

44. Good questions.

For followers of Rand and Objectivism, the self is the greatest good.

Those who distort Maslow's theory see the self alone at the top of the pyramid. Self-actualization is thus equated with Me First, "Greed is Good", and a justification for unbridled capitalism.

But this leaves out the lower, more fundamental levels of the hierarchy of needs, wherein one has a sense of community, of compassion, and self-worth. True self-worth grows out of interconnectedness with other people. Without this, the "self worth" that develops is a nihilistic and disconnected one, that bends towards the destructive. Perspectives that ignore this level of the hierarchy misunderstand it in an essential way.

But of course every philosophy and teaching is subject to being skewed and used for the opposite of its intrinsic values.

[KoKo]

29. Something about Jung...and then there's more...sort of an errant thing to throw in....

I agree in so many ways with what you say...but deal with my "intuitiveness"...always...just saying...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung

Carl Gustav Jung (IPA: <ˈkarl ˈgʊstaf ˈjʊŋ>) (26 July 1875 – 6 June 1961) was a Swiss psychiatrist, an influential thinker and the founder of Analytical psychology. Jung's approach to psychology has been influential in the field of depth psychology and in countercultural movements across the globe. Jung is considered as the first modern psychologist to state that the human psyche is "by nature religious" and to explore it in depth.<1> He emphasized understanding the psyche through exploring the worlds of dreams, art, mythology, religion and philosophy. Although he was a theoretical psychologist and practicing clinician, much of his life's work was spent exploring other areas, including Eastern and Western philosophy, alchemy, astrology, sociology, as well as literature and the arts. His most notable ideas include the concept of psychological archetypes, the collective unconscious and synchronicity.

Jung emphasized the importance of balance and harmony. He cautioned that modern people rely too heavily on science and logic and would benefit from integrating spirituality and appreciation of unconscious realms. He considered the process of individuation necessary for a person to become whole. This is a psychological process of integrating the conscious with the unconscious while still maintaining conscious autonomy.<2> Individuation was the central concept of Analytical Psychology.<3>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung

[KoKo]

30. "sadomasochism" and "necrophilia."

"sadomasochism" and "necrophilia."

We find a form of sadomasochism in many relationships, the most important for this discussion being in the workplace. Many people who are employed in a business or agency with tiers of responsibility/supervision have experience with a person who brown-noses their bosses – at least to

In a biophilic society, the Dr. Strangeloves do not tend to rise to power; rather, the small ones are easily identified as annoying, and the larger ones as dangerous. In an unhealthy society, they tend to become entrenched in bureaucratic positions that provide them with power. The small ones are easily identified as republicans, and the larger ones as, for example, cogs in Dick Cheney’s machine.

Here:

”..we had forgotten that alongside Orwell’s dark vision, there was another - slightly older, slightly less well known, equally chilling: Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World. Contrary to common belief even among the educated, Huxley and Orwell did not prophesy the same thing. Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley’s vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.”

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny “failed to take into account man’s almost infinite appetite for distractions”. In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us.”

“This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.”

- The forward from “Amusing Ourselves to Death” by Neil Postman
— Eric

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death

[Forkboy]

35. You probably could have drawn some of them out had you not used more than 1 sentence.

:)

[KoKo]

41. "not used more than one sentence." You really got it in a nutshell there..

or actually the subtlety is in a peanut of sparse wording.

:thumbsup:

[alfredo]

36. Kick

[Duncan Grant]

40. In what social institutions do we see "biophilic passions" working healthily?

I'm sitting with the idea of a biophilic orientation/ethic and how a culture could either nurture it or thwart it. To me, it's a refined lens for an old quandary.

Maybe we should pin this post to the top of the page for a few weeks? :thumbsup:

[KoKo]

42. Don't have time to Google that one. Can you give a synopsis on

biophilic orientation/ethic? Sounds interesting...but too tired to do the Google.

[whistler162]

45. Did you just change Liberal to Neoconservative?

This idiocy has been the vile bile of Neoconservatives for years!

[H2O Man]

48. Gracious.

[whistler162]

50. Well did you?

This garbage has been spouted by Limbaugh and his ilk for quite awhile!

[H2O Man]

51. What garbage?

[byronius]

53. Gosh, I surely wish you would elucidate.

Your charges are so dismissive and contentious, broad and somewhat meaningless. If you actually have a point, perhaps you could pose it in a small paragraph?

I'd like to be able to understand your meaning. I really would.

'This idiocy' is a well-reasoned perspective put forth by one of the most respected members of this forum. You've made three critical comments that drip with arrogance and obtuse argumentativity.

So if you got it, bring it. Otherwise, consider yourself revealed.

[H2O Man]

56. "revealed"

It is obvious that this fellow is either not at all familiar with Fromm and Frankl -- unless one is purposely being an ass, it is not possible to make the claims he has in those three posts. However, I think it's safe to assume he is familiar with Rush L., hence his unease with the OP.

[DemReadingDU]

49. interesting thread

sorry I missed this yesterday

[The Magistrate]

57. A Few Small Points, Mr. Waterman

From the first observable instances of societies arising with sufficient scope of numbers and complexity to display governing authority exercised at a distance, a clear pattern of exploitation of the governed by the governors can be discerned. This has taken the form of extracting from a lowest laboring class much of what they produce, and devoting this to the maintenance of the governing class and organs, and of a leisure class which both depends on the governing organs for its existence, and exists principally to glorify it in one way or another. The pretensions of those at the apex of governance were from the start of a quality that can fairly be described as delusional, including belief the chief of the society partook of the divine in his person, and was the indispensable intermediary between the workings of the cosmos and of the material world. Those who were governed were classed as much lower creatures, lesser humans, or even less than human, and their lives and possible aspirations greatly circumscribed. It would not be going too far to state that the original and normal condition of complex human societies consisted in a small number of sociopaths lording it over a great herd of the chronically depressed, and that cultures and societies and societies were shaped to induce these conditions in their various members. This seems to be the natural state of affairs, whether or not it is the optimal one, and variations from it are the unnatural reflection of hard work and vigilance, well directed and pressed with great effort.

Hierarchical relations of subordinance and dominance appear throughout the animal world, and are particularly marked in the mammalian order. Sadomasochism is a dicey term to use, without explicitly recognizing that it is simply a means of mediating this drive through sexual symbol among humans, who perceive the world through symbols, and find in sexuality a particularly rich field of free-floating symbology, since in humans the sexual drive has become largely detached from the hormonally driven periodicity which is the general case among animals, and so has been pressed into service for a great range of other social uses. Early complex societies displayed as normal behaviors things which would nowadays be considered extremely sadomasochistic, whether encountered in the attenuated form of symbolic play-acting among consenting adults or as the clearly aberrant acts of criminals. The ancient culture in which the modern West is most firmly rooted, that of Rome, was certainly rife with such behaviors. They are not peculiar to a small segment of humanity, but natural outgrowths of animal socialization as it has developed in the course of life itself.

One of the weaknesses, in my view, of a good deal of modern thought in this area is that, having arisen in a time and place where, at some great effort, social conditions running somewhat closer to what we would agree are optimal are in force, the thinkers have mistaken these more optimal conditions for a norm, and view deviations from them as novel aberrations rather than as surviving expressions of the original patterns.

[H2O Man]

58. Respectfully disagree

with parts, though I also respectfully agree with other parts.

Human history is filled with many examples of both the good and bad potential in human beings. Thus, it is possible to identify examples of sociopaths, including some who held political power, in previous eras. This is perhaps especially true, if one concentrates on the western societies. It also is true for both industy-based societies, where the means of production are concentrated on making products that are not intended for the essentials in life (the obvious example being weapons).

Two things: first, the number of true sociopaths (or psychopaths, if one prefers that term) is, according to some of the top people in the field, increasing at a geometric rate in our society. J. Reid Meloy has a theory on why this is, though that is not central to this discussion. What is important is that we not judge all cultures, from all times, based upon the reality of the world we inhabit today.

Second, even within the context of our society, we can look at the single best example of what happens to individuals' humanity within the context of a large machine, the Pentagon. Now, people on DU may hold a range of views, including that everyone associated with it has always been "bad" in intention, to the belief that some people within it are "bad," but that many/most are people who are decent, and sincere in what they are attempting to do. But, as James Carroll's "House of War" documents so well, even those (or especially those) near the top levels, who attempt to maintain their sense of humanity, and move things in a positive direction, find that the huge, impersonal level of the machine doed not allow for that, after a certain point.

That there are systems that crush people, and allow people without conscience, to rise to the top, is certainly true. But there are other systems, which differ in both size and intent, that do not. It is within human beings' capacity to be rational, honest, and decent. Even "leaders."

[The Magistrate]

61. Part Of Our Apparent Disagreement, Sir

May be simply a product of looking through differently focused lenses. Having a bent for antiquity, my inclination is to look down the length and breadth of the past before examining the present. We live, even amid our present disruptions and difficulties, in a bubble of extremely good fortune by compare to the course of human experience down the ages: for me at least the chief result of studying history has been a profound gratitude to be here now.

My invocation of Rome was not meant to suggest something peculiarly Western about the pattern described above, or that that pattern did not apply in non-Western societies. Rome was mentioned simply because it is more relevant to the West at present than other examples that could be offered. The basic pattern can certainly be discerned in non-Western societies. It persisted from ancient days well into the modern period in Imperial China, in chemically pure form, and is on display in Aztec and Mayan societies, Pharonic Egypt, and the early empires of Mesopotamia, among others. It does seem to be true that the natural governing order of small-scale societies is more egalitarian and democratic, but something seems to occur when groups much too large for face to face interaction to be the prevailing mode come into formation. These have always been stratified and autocratic, with a grave disregard for the lower orders of the society by their superiors built into their structures and assumptions. Even the small-scale 'democracies' of the Classical period, such as Athens and Republican Rome, maintained such features in their cultural and social arrangements.

It is probably a poor practice to use modern terms from our present culture and society like sociopath and chronic depression outside the context in which they have arisen, but the temptation to communicate a quick effect, and present a striking picture, can be hard to resist. It may well be true that our society is producing increased numbers of sociopaths. Culture does influence the development of individuals within it, and a culture which both exalts the individual and posits the collective as something antithetical to the prerogatives of the individual can certainly be expected to turn out a greater proportion of individuals who feel free to regard others without the least twinge of empathy and fellow-feeling, and who are willing to act upon them accordingly.

For me, at least, to say something is natural is not to say that it is good, or even the best possible. Much that is natural is less than optimum; much that is natural is actively repellent to anyone who shares a progressive, modern outlook on human rights and behavior. It seems to me important to recognize that the social and political structures we live amongst today are as far from natural as a green-house is from a tract of rain-forest, and are the resultant product of a long struggle against natural tendencies. If we imagine these things to be natural, we may yet end up losing them, for our identification of problems within our society, and our prescriptions for fixing them, will likely be in-apt, and we certainly will not grasp the necessity or scale of the labor necessary just to maintain our arrangements against reversion to the natural state. If we grasp that our society and culture is an aberration, a deliberate contrivance far from the natural tendency of things in complex human societies, we are more likely to see what is necessary to maintain and expand it, and actually do those things.

[ColbertWatcher]

62. Sounds similar to Dean's "Conservatives without Conscience"

He talks about the authoritarian personality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatives_without_Conscience

http://powells.com/biblio/17-9780143038863-0

[H2O Man]

63. Yes.

When it came out -- and Dean's book is outstanding -- I remember posting on DU that it raised many of the same issues that Fromm raised in his "The Sane Society," fifty years earlier. I think that Fromm would be one of the authors that Dean would enjoy the most. And the concept of an authoritarian character is not only similar to Fromm's works, but the specific term and definition is provided in his books.

Good call.

[FamousAmos]

64. I would be funny...

If it weren't so true and so terrifying.