Un. Effing. Believable. I am actually stunned...

[tjwash]

...that there are still a hand full of people that justify the United States use of torture, even after it has been proven that torture was ONLY used to seek a phony Al-Qaeda/Iraq link, and justify the Iraq invasion.

The use of abusive interrogation — widely considered torture — as part of Bush's quest for a rationale to invade Iraq came to light as the Senate issued a major report tracing the origin of the abuses and President Barack Obama opened the door to prosecuting former U.S. officials for approving them.

Former Vice President Dick Cheney and others who advocated the use of sleep deprivation, isolation and stress positions and waterboarding, which simulates drowning, insist that they were legal.The use of abusive interrogation — widely considered torture — as part of Bush's quest for a rationale to invade Iraq came to light as the Senate issued a major report tracing the origin of the abuses and President Barack Obama opened the door to prosecuting former U.S. officials for approving them.

Former Vice President Dick Cheney and others who advocated the use of sleep deprivation, isolation and stress positions and waterboarding, which simulates drowning, insist that they were legal.

A former U.S. Army psychiatrist, Maj. Charles Burney, told Army investigators in 2006 that interrogators at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, detention facility were under "pressure" to produce evidence of ties between al Qaida and Iraq.

The Bush administration put relentless pressure on interrogators to use harsh methods on detainees in part to find evidence of cooperation between al Qaida and the late Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein’s regime, according to a former senior U.S. intelligence official and a former Army psychiatrist.

Such information would’ve provided a foundation for one of former President George W. Bush’s main arguments for invading Iraq in 2003. No evidence has ever been found of operational ties between Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network and Saddam’s regime.

I'm am just stunned, that anyone can make excuses as to why we are not going after these bastards, especially after new evidence that Rice and Cheney SIGNED THE PAPERS AUTHORIZING IT.

A newly declassified narrative of the Bush administration's advice to the CIA on harsh interrogations shows that the small group of Justice Department lawyers who wrote memos authorizing harsh interrogation techniques were operating not on their own but with direction from top administration officials, including then-Vice President Dick Cheney and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.

This was after the military TOLD these bastards that the "harsh interrogation techniques" they were requesting WAS torture, and that it was unreliable.

The military agency that provided advice on harsh interrogation techniques for use against terrorism suspects referred to the application of extreme duress as "torture" in a July 2002 document sent to the Pentagon's chief lawyer and warned that it would produce "unreliable information."

"The unintended consequence of a U.S. policy that provides for the torture of prisoners is that it could be used by our adversaries as justification for the torture of captured U.S. personnel," says the document, an unsigned two-page attachment to a memo by the military's Joint Personnel Recovery Agency. Parts of the attachment, obtained in full by The Washington Post, were quoted in a Senate report on harsh interrogation released this week.

And...after the CIA said that torture has NEVER stopped a terrorist attack on US Soil.

WASHINGTON — The CIA inspector general in 2004 found that there was no conclusive proof that waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques helped the Bush administration thwart any "specific imminent attacks," according to recently declassified Justice Department memos.

That undercuts assertions by former vice president Dick Cheney and other former Bush administration officials that the use of harsh interrogation tactics including waterboarding, which is widely considered torture, was justified because it headed off terrorist attacks.

And no...there was NEVER a "Los Angeles Terrorist Plot" ever thwarted by torturing a suspect, so stick that Savage/Hannity/Rove induced talking point straight where the sun don't shine before you even TRY to use it.

First of all, the background: No, Karl Rove, Marc Thiessen, and Fox News are not telling the truth when they claim that U.S. torture techniques prevented a 'west coast 9/11.'

Rove et al. claim that after CIA waterboarding, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed gave authorities information used to foil a plot to hijack an airplane with a shoe bomb and fly it into the tallest building in Los Angeles, the Library Tower (now known as the U.S. Bank Building).

In other words, Rove and his crew say torture saved America from another 9/11.

As Timothy Noah and Daily Kos TV have documented, however, the Rove timetable just doesn't add up. While KSM was arrested in March 2003, the plot was stopped in February 2002 -- more than a year earlier. Rove's tale could not possibly be true.

Cheney knew it.

Rice knew it.

Rumsfeld knew it.

And to see that lying, scumbag Cheney on television - AGAIN, requesting CIA documents to prove that ordering torture worked, and saved America from harm, is 10000% pure aryan nation, knuckle dragging, crap.

I will be the first to admit here...that up until about a month ago, I was on the fence with this "let's move forward" idea. But, the evidence that is now coming out, is way too strong. It is proving what an evil thing it was, that these people were doing, and doing in the name of the country, and doing in the name of all of "We The People" who live here. We also now know, that this leads, at the very least, up to Cheney and Rice.

For Christ's sake...62% of Americans want this investigated.

Gallup: Americans Want Investigation into US Torture.

President Obama is hedging on a so-called "truth commission", but 62% of Americans surveyed seem to be in favor of that move. No doubt, the make up of an "independent panel" would be hotly contested.

For the sake of the soul of our country, and for the sake of our laws, which, despite what these brutal, evil being's opinions, still mean something to all of us, if we really call ourselves Americans, we MUST bring them to justice.

If nothing gets done; if no one, but some low level lackeys get sacrificed, so that the demons at the top, which are ultimately responsible for this, walk off in to the sunset...this country is through. It's screwed. It. Is. Over.

For the sake of the soul of this once formally great country. For the sake of the laws, which are supposed to bind all men, at the highest, and lowest levels among us. If we want our words, deeds, and actions to ever mean mean something to the rest of the civilized world ever again.

We...must...GET THOSE BASTARDS AND MAKE THEM PAY.

[Bucky]

1. 1st rec

1st kick :dem:

[HysteryDiagnosis]

2. What about the people who had no reason to be in

Abu Ghraib?? I quote from the American Conservative, please please read the rest of the article... it gets worse.

http://www.amconmag.com/article/2004/jun/07/00011/

When American troops rolled into Baghdad last April, 43 percent of Iraqis viewed them as liberators, according to a poll of 1,620 Iraqis conducted for the State Department. By October, the share had sunk to 15 percent. A whopping 67 percent of Iraqis across the country—in Sunni and Shia areas alike—instead described Americans as an occupying force. What changed?

In that period, their uninvited American guests began to mistreat them seriously—randomly locking them up and even killing them—and they did so long before the bout of homosadistic detainee abuse uncovered in the recent investigation of Abu Ghraib prison.

When the news first broke, administration officials, desperate to contain fallout from the mushrooming scandal in an election year, maintained it was an isolated incident, and as far as they knew, the mistreatment of Iraqi detainees was not systemic.

But it was widespread, involving several prisons in addition to Abu Ghraib, which holds less than 1,500 of the roughly 10,000 Iraqis detained by American forces. And not only was the problem pervasive, it’s been widely known by at least Pentagon brass for almost a year as evidenced by after-action reviews written last year by U.S. Army intelligence. I obtained two of the internal Army reports, known inside the military as “lessons learned,” before the Pentagon recently locked them away. (All future reviews will be classified, which I’m told is an unprecedented move.)

[yellerpup]

3. We can't go back and we can't forget that torture happened

and YES the bastards need to pay. K&R! Thanks for an excellent post.

[progressoid]

4. Sadly, it's more than a handful of people justifying it.

a LOT more.

[TankLV]

16. What about the many IDIOTS HERE ON DU who try to justify it?!!!

THAT'S really unacceptable...

[TorchTheWitch]

24. You are soooo right!

I can't even believe the crap I've been reading on here from some. Great God Almighty. Sometimes I have to honestly check that I'm really on DU at all.

[lakercub]

38. Do you have a link?

Not that I don't believe you, but I am interested in how any of us could justify this. If the justification is pathetic, which I suspect it will be, then I may need to grow my ignore list.

[imdjh]

50. Are you reading what is written?

Without examples of course, it's difficult on such a large site to know to whom you refer because there are so many posts that go unread, but are you looking at sincere efforts to justify it or are you looking at a practical observation or perhaps indifference by those who can't help but see the deeply felt outrage at what is at best petty torture to simply be a vehicle to promote that which will never happen , ie sending the former President Of The United States and his key subordinates to jail?

[polmaven]

28. I saw this morning

that, according to a LA Times (I think) poll, som ething like 68% thaought the "methods" were justified......How sick is that?

[pleah]

5. K&R

[louis-t]

6. Only right-wing politicians and pundits are saying it works.

Every military person I've seen, especially the ones who were there, say it doesn't work.

[Berry Cool]

7. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but turn on Fox News and you'll find a whole channelful of

people that are spending night and day attempting to justify torture.

I flipped channels and landed on them and tried to listen for just a minute or two. Couldn't do it. Someone was talking earnestly to the Manatee about how "our enhanced interrogation techniques worked" and I had to change the channel.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

34. Not just Fox

All three of the cable news networks have torture apologists on it all the time. MSNBC has Morning Joe which has quickly devolved into "Morning Justifying Torture", you can't not turn on MSNBC aside from Keith, Ed, and Rachel and see Pat Buchanan talking about "oh yeah torture is wrong but we shouldnt be looking backwards" and thinks it is a partisan witch hunt. Over on CNN people as surprising as Jamal Simmons who I actually loved during the campaign, who was the biggest Obama supporter on the network, surprised the hell out of me the other day and said he thought prosecutions were wrong and we should get on with "the countries more important business" or something to that effect. The torture apologists are a plenty and it's just not on Fox, it is everywhere.

[wroberts189]

8. You and many many more... you simply cannot defend the indefensible

They think they can change public opinion through misleading talking points

..spin all you (pubs) want .. you will not change consensus reality.

knr

[spanone]

9. unfrickenbelievable

[Union Yes]

10. knr

[baldguy]

11. And 20% still support the GOP.

[cliffordu]

12. I be kickin' and reckin' this

shaw nuff.

[tomp]

13. there is no excuse, never will be.

it's all political shenanigans and obama is at the center of it. doj should have had indictments from top to bottom on day one.

[OnyxCollie]

14. K&R. nt

[Solly Mack]

15. K&R!

[Moonwalk]

17. I don't know why you're stunned. People who want to believe, really believe

...that the torture is was justified, that we didn't do anything horrible or if we did that it was necessary will ignore the facts that refute, and listen only those people who say what they want to hear. You could probably take all these people and waterboard them 183 times and they'd continue to insist that it was effective and necessary.

There are still holocaust deniers. And, from the minute we tortured our first suspected terrorist post 9/11, there have been, and likely always will be American-torture deniers.

[leftstreet]

18. K&R

[magellan]

19. There are plenty of torture apologists out on YouTube

From their sadistic, puerile, ignorant posts the casual observer might guess 99% of them haven't shaved their first beard yet, but I know most of them are adult freeper types. These so-called humans are the sh*t-stain Bush** left on the country.

[Norrin Radd]

21. Don't let that get to you. They swarm around poorly moderated message

boards and comment boxes, because they'd be banned anywhere else.

[magellan]

23. I don't let them get to me

Fact is I rather enjoy poking them with sticks. It's almost always an utter waste of time...they argue for argument's sake...but now and then they slither off after being exposed as utter fools and those moments are delicious!

[Norrin Radd]

25. Yeah, I enjoyed doing that back when Yahoo! had freewheeling

boards under its news articles. It was like political debate Fight Club, down and dirty.

[imdjh]

51. There are plenty of torture apologists to be found across the board

Go to any forum after someone has been arrested or convicted of a crime that has people worked up. They all seem to think that being gang raped in prison, or beaten senseless, ie real torture is a suitable punishment for all sorts of crimes. The fact that they don't see a special stupidity to their desires in this regard, while on any other day they are declaring that some unknown but certainly huge percentage of those in prison are innocent doesn't seem to bother them.

[babylonsister]

20. I remember so many threads from so many people, especially

about shrinks taking part in this, and some people being very angry. It's tough to find, but it's out there.

[Kablooie]

22. You should be tortured for posting this.

[santamargarita]

26. K&R

!

[ejbr]

27. K & Mother f&ckin R! n/t

[democrank]

29. Prosecute

[underpants]

30. Great amount of research tj. Thanks, rec'd and bookmarked

[unpossibles]

31. I know! Not many, but some people I know try to justify it

On the bright side, they all use the same talking points as arguments, so it gets easier to shoot down, but they also just refuse to listen to anyone but Rush, Fox, Hannity, etc. even as they deny it.

[PassingFair]

32. Oh look, there's SWINE FLU....or SHARKS!!!

This is a loser for them, and they KNOW it.

Indefensible.

Even for them.

[florida08]

33. I'm with you

Remember this:
{Oct 2005}
Senate Supports Interrogation Limits
90-9 Vote on the Treatment of Detainees Is a Bipartisan Rebuff of the White House

Forty-six Republicans joined 43 Democrats and one independent in voting to define and limit interrogation techniques that U.S. troops may use against terrorism suspects, the latest sign that alarm over treatment of prisoners in the Middle East and at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is widespread in both parties.

In its statement on the veto threat, the White House said the measure would "restrict the president's authority to protect Americans effectively from terrorist attack and bringing terrorists to justice."

{Feb 2008}
Bush to veto Senate ban on waterboarding

WASHINGTON (AFP) — US President George W. Bush said Thursday he plans to veto legislation passed by the Senate to bar the CIA from using harsh interrogation methods including waterboarding.

The Democratic-led Senate voted 51-45 on Wednesday in favor of a bill calling for the Central Intelligence Agency to adopt the US Army Field Manual, which forbids waterboarding and other types of coercive interrogation methods.

However, the vote fell short of the two-thirds majority needed to overcome a presidential veto. The House of Representatives passed similar legislation in December. Arizona Senator John McCain, voted against the bill.

Now tell me why was the first vote overwhelming non partisan while the second extremely partisan..seems obvious what the republicans care about and it's not the law or justice. And where are the religious right voices?

Huckabee went on to say that because waterboarding is merely a simulation of drowning, not the real thing, and because we got information out of it, it was worthwhile.

http://www.newshounds.us/2009/04/25/is_sean_hannity_hoping_for_another_terrorist_attack.php

[rhymeandreason]

35. After they have Cheney and co. locked up

they can prosecute Henry Kissinger for the secret bombing of Cambodia.

[InfiniteThoughts]

36. criticizing Obama ...

... is the theme on Right-wing website (I do check on them from time to time to know their positions). The amount of bile they spit in those articles are mind-boggling. What i find funny is that Repubs aren't outraged that we adopted practices like waterboarding but outraged that Obama authorized releasing of these documents.

[magellan]

46. Distraction and blame-shifting is all they've got

...because they certainly aren't on the side of the Constitution -- any more than Bush was.

Which is one of a skillion reasons why only about 21% of Americans willingly identify as Repub anymore.

Welcome to DU, InfiniteThoughts. :hi:

[Papa Boule]

37. It's looking more and more like simple sociopathic sadism

Whether it was them getting even for imagined or real unfairnesses and resentments in their own lives, or the power rush of it, or whatever, when you add it up -- that they were making up reasons to do it, were covering their tracks from the start (showing they knew it was wrong but were set on doing it anyway), that they were hiring and appointing people to give them fig leaves, and how quickly they let people down the chain take the blame and the fall instead of owning what they did -- it looks more and more like they just wanted to torture people.

[ColesCountyDem]

39. It's been illegal since the Spanish-American War. I don't get it, either...

US soldiers were court-martialed for using torture 110+ years ago. This is a complete no-brainer!

:shrug:

[beac]

40. K&R! n/t

[LaPera]

41. Lying fucking reoublicans....

[spanone]

42. there are united states senators who are pushing for more torture....this is a fucked country

[WarhammerTwo]

43. Cheney's Pulling A "Saddam" on Obama

Remember?

Cheney and Shrub: Saddam, disarm or we'll invade.

Saddam: I have no WMDs. I can't disarm.

Cheney and Shrub: Oh, so you refuse to disarm, eh? BOMBS AWAY!

Now with Obama:

CHENEY: Obama needs to release the memos that show what great intelligence torture, er, I mean, ahem, harsh interrogation techniques have produced.

OBAMA: There are no such memos. I can't release them.

CHENEY: Oh, so you refuse to release those memos, eh? You are making the country weak, you terrorist loving traitor!

It's a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't scenario. Cheney says such memos exist. Obama has no way to prove they don't. Since the burden of proof lies with Obama (since Cheney no longer has access), everyone just starts thinking Obama is hiding them. Just like Saddam.

I wish Obama would just come out and Cheney what he is: a soulless, lying sack of maggot infested shit.

[Dinger]

44. Wow, Excellent Post. I Agree 100%! K & R!

[RalphieD]

45. Prosecute Bush/Cheney/Rummy

The Bushies were behind 9/11, used that tragedy to justify
illegally invading Iraq and taking innocent people from their
homes and torturing them.  The Bushies should be rounded up,
placed in Gitmo and tortured using the same techniques that
they say is not torture.

Obama should stop all government business until this happens.

[chknltl]

47. A decade ago we wouldn't even be having this discussion...

...because a decade ago most American citizens were against torture period! Well that's how I recall my country being a mere decade ago.

It's been my observation lately that there are hordes of kool-aid drinkin' repukes who will rally around and defend pretty much anything their leaders do or say. If tomorrow morning caribou barbie announced that the world was round.....like a pizza, it wouldn't surprise me to see an afternoon run on Dominos stock!

[SemperEadem]

48. two books I think that people need to pick up and read

The Dark Side by Jane Meyer

and

Just How Stupid Are We? by Rick Schenkman


The Dark Side explains how Cheney, Addington, Yoo and their henchmen set this whole thing in motion and Just How Stupid Are We? explains the why about how easily "the people" rolled over and chose to believe in the myths they were told.

[florida08]

49. thanks

going to check them out.

[L0oniX]

52. What's it like to be a rocket scientist?

[lostnotforgotten]

53. What Many Of Us Old Timers Suspected All Along

eom