Sometimes I'm ashamed to be an American

[Philosoraptor]

Like when I hear seemingly intelligent people discussing the pros and cons of torture in casual conversation. 'What IS torture'? 'Who defines torture'? 'Is torture a good thing, or a bad thing'?

What the fuck America?

republicans will tell you that you should never be ashamed of America, that the very notion is un-patriotic and counter-productive, I say bullshit, our shame is well earned, and deserved.

Our parents and grand parents fought and died to defeat torturers in World War Two. The Germans and the Japanese openly tortured their prisoners of war, and we called them ANIMALS for it, and we made war with them and we defeated them, but only for a few years, and they came back, not in uniforms, but in suits, not some random bad apples, but our very own president and vice president, and most of our government. THEY have revived and nourished what our parents and grand parents fought and died to stop.

I guess maybe I've seen too many old movies about world war two, watched too many episodes of The Twilight Zone growing up, with it's heavy moral messages, many concerning world war two, and I guess maybe I have an old fashioned concept about what America stands for, and what democracy really means, and what is right, and what is wrong, here lately I feel like I don't fit in anymore because I see less and less compassion and logic in America.

I have no lofty illusions of an American Utopia, but I just never ever dreamed that I'd live to see the day that the subject of torture of prisoners of war would be on the lips of all our reporters and government officials. Never thought I'd live to see the American flag flying over hell holes like Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay, never thought I'd live to see America fall so fucking low.

And worst of all is the apathy of the American people. To see cheney and bush and rumsfeld and rice still walking free like normal people instead of being arrested and tried and punished for high treason and war crimes is the most surrealistic, Twilight Zone dread I've ever felt. That and a deep, deep shame when I think about all the Americans and people of ALL nations the world over who fought and died to forever prevent animals like the Nazis to ever infect the world again. America has failed them all, and they all died in vain if this is indeed the final outcome of our once respected republic.

I don't care what anyone says, torture SHAMES us all, and I hang my head in shame.

[shadowknows69]

1. +1 Raptorman

I never thought I'd live to see these days in our country. Under Bush we turned into exactly what I had learned as a child what the "Evil Empire" the USSR was by crazy Uncle Ronnie (Raygun) and my parents, grandparents et al.

-Spying on your own citizens? Can't happen here.
-Torture and incarceration without representation? Can't happen here.
-Wage unjust imperialistic wars against countries for their resources, slaughtering their people in the process? Can't happen here.

What the fuck America indeed.

[Philosoraptor]

4. They made us all read 1984, then they made it happen.

[C_U_L8R]

2. I can't believe these republican jerks are trying to DEFEND torture.

What shameless assholes. It's disgusting.

[BlooInBloo]

3. Yup.

[ixion]

5. One of your best, raptor

The fact that we're even having the discussion is ludicrous.

I think my first sense of shame came in the Ray-Gun years, and it never left. I've watched in horror over the years as we've invaded and brutalized smaller countries in the name of fighting one faceless demon or another -- at the cost of millions of innocent people's lives, the destruction of their families or livelihood.

And we've paid for it all. Every brutal, spine crushing blow has been commissioned by the US taxpayer.

We should be so proud.

[Supersedeas]

19. yep, I'll second that -- as if EVERY debate is legitimate b/c it is a debate

We don't debate child pornography and child prostitution.

We don't debate infancide and genocide.

We don't debate the benefits and advantages of Naziism.

Why are we debating Torture -- BECAUSE Joe Skankburg, Mika and Tweety want to?
It is not close to academic and certainly NOT AMERICAN.

[Fumesucker]

6. To tell you the truth I'm not at all surprised by anything that's happened

The potential for this has been there all along, indeed we have been doing all these things all along.

It's just that you had to scratch the surface to find it before, now it's mostly out in the open and in your face.

[KharmaTrain]

7. I'm Never Ashamed I'm An American...Just Ashamed Of Some Americans...

I've traveled this country, as many here have, and for all this country's problems and warts, it's still a great nation. There are many good people out there who will give you the shirt off their back and few nations can exhibit the diversity one can find "on the road". Most people I've associated with are hard working, peace loving, compassionate people...educated, enlightened and contributing to the general good.

Yes, there are bad "apples"...and sadly, they have grown into a forest in recent years. This "guilded age" of Raygunomics brought out the greed that lies inside, but went unchecked by a few that are now ruining the lives of the many. The same can be said of the "military-industrial" complex. It outgrew defending this country into attempting to be the world's policeman (so goes another GOOP myth) and imposed an irrational and unreleastic world view that had led to disaster after disaster throughout the world. These "bad apples" were able to feret their way into the levers of power and we're now paying the price for their arrogance and ignorance.

Above all, this country has always stood for the rule of law and justice. I see this happening as the calls for accountability grow louder as more of the crimes of the past regime are uncovered. Until just recently, we had conjecture and unsourced information, now we have real evidence...and with it, people are now not questioning if it happened, but what to do about it. Each poll shows more people want investigations and those who tortured and violated civil rights to be exposed, and, if applicable, prosecuted. This train left the station and continues to roll...we need to keep stoking that engine.

I am shamed by those who try to justify the unjustifiable...but I was also very proud a year ago to see how millions came together to throw out the past regime and turn this country in a new direction. Change doesn't happen overnight and we have beaten but not defeated those "bad apples"...but we're well on the way.

[Rebubula]

13. Well said...

I agree with you completely.

America is still a great country due to its people. It cannot be defined solely on the actions of a few.

You have to get your heads out of the Interwebs, chatrooms and news feeds and meet real people that, like you said, are hard working, good people that would give you the shirt off their backs for the asking.

[Obamanaut]

23. You said what I tried to say in another thread I started - here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5556112#5556772

Yours is much better.

[PetrusMonsFormicarum]

8. I feel like I've been spanked

but I also feel like I had it coming.

Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al., History is already judging them. A presidency that cared so much about its own legacy that it ignored the rule of law. Our new DoJ will hopefully put some or all of them in front of a judge, too.

[sendero]

9. Only sometimes?

I stopped being able to be proud of America in 2003.

This nation is reaping the whirlwind and most people still haven't a clue.

[Lorien]

10. That was what I was going to say. nt

[izzie]

11. it is odd how some people think they are always right

and any thing they do to prove it is fine. Almost like to save us they must burn us alive. Half of these people live in the Middle ages I think.

[Echo In Light]

12. Well, that, the de-politicization, and for a host of other things too. Agreed

[dgibby]

14. This country was founded

on the ethnic cleansing/genocide of the Native Americans and the enslavement of African-Americans. I think we're now reaping what we've sown. I'm not saying there are not good Americans or that this country hasn't done some really good things. I'm just saying we built our house on sand.

[Rebubula]

15. Welcome...

...to the real world.

Each country is founded on the oppression of lesser peoples. All countries have blood in their history.

[noiretextatique]

18. "lesser peoples"

:wtf: i think it's the "lesser peoples" who do the oppressing.

[babylonsister]

16. I'm not anymore. I'm proud Americans picked a man with a brain

for prez, finally. After being ashamed for 8 years, this is a breath of fresh air.

For those idjits who think torture is okay, that sounds like a personal problem.

[earth mom]

17. Sounds like the public needs to watch the Twilight Zone for a wake up call.

Because, make no mistake, the media and the government are working overtime to cover their a$$es on this one.

[Chulanowa]

20. Take it in perspective of history

It took the United States nearly a century to "figure out" slavery, and with a gigantic loss of life. It would be another century before the descendants of those slaves would be fully recognized as Americans.

It took a century and a half for our nation to figure out that women were indeed smart enough to vote and own property. it would be another fifty years before their right to their own uterus was recognized.

In nearly three centuries, not a single issue has been resolved between the European Americans and the Indians, and nearly every treaty remains violated.

It's taken us sixty years to finally accept that maybe, just maybe, murdering a whole fucking lot of people for the crime of being communist isn't such a great idea.

We still have a hell of a long way to go for gay people to be accepted for the people they are.

We have a long, ignoble history of sitting on our hands and thinking about questions that have no-brainer answers. Is slavery wrong? Are black people humans? Are GLBT people and natives worthy of respectful treatment? Are women intelligent enough to hold office? The answers to these questions is obvious to everyone.

So let's add to them... Is torture wrong?

It's a stupid, STUPID question, one so stupid that I get a headache just from writing it. But really given our previous history on other such questions, if this one is resolved within a few years, it'll be a fucking landmark.

[Dragonfli]

21. Thank you for reminding me that I am not alone.

It is indeed a point lower than I ever thought our nation would reach. The worst part is the apathy of our so-called fellow citizens. A Bush being a Nazi is not the shame, hell one could even expect it from that clan, the real dig to the soul is the way it shocks so few, and how justice and human decency has been reduced to a point of view.

[mrs_p]

22. i know, how can this even be a discussion

k/r

[dysfunctional press]

24. it seems that i'm ashamed of my country/countrymen more often than not any more...

it's pretty much been that way ever since ronbo raygun. (yes, even thru the 90's)