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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 08:17 PM Original message |
The Nazi Party was based on pragmatism, not ideological purity. |
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asthmaticeog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 08:22 PM Response to Original message |
1. You know who else had a pretty accurate view of fascist sociology and historiography? Hitler. |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 08:28 PM Response to Reply #1 |
5. After Bamberg, yes. He essentially made himself the infallible arbiter, but he was a noob when... |
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msongs (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 08:23 PM Response to Original message |
2. all those dead people will be glad to hear they died because of pragmatism, not ideology nt |
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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 09:03 PM Response to Reply #2 |
8. But the "pragmatists" who claim a pogram or gulag lurks in every instance of ethical commitment |
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izquierdista (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 08:23 PM Response to Original message |
3. Even the name was pragmatic |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 08:26 PM Response to Reply #3 |
4. Basically it's a crib. "Making ideology sucks, let's substitute Volksgemeinschaft for Proletariat... |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 01:21 PM Response to Reply #3 |
27. Eh. Both movements agreed with Hegel |
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Faygo Kid (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 08:41 PM Response to Original message |
6. The Nazi Party was based on Adolf Hitler. Without him, it would have gone by the wayside. |
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backscatter712 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 09:03 PM Response to Reply #6 |
9. Fascism does not have a coherent ideology. |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 09:09 PM Response to Reply #9 |
11. Italian Fascism does have a kind of coherence, but Hitler wasn't a fan. |
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Faygo Kid (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 09:10 PM Response to Reply #9 |
12. Very thoughtful. Have you read "Explaining Hitler?" |
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backscatter712 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 11:55 AM Response to Reply #12 |
17. Haven't read it yet, but the book definitely sounds interesting. |
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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 09:11 PM Response to Reply #9 |
13. That's why the OP suggests that one read the writing of the Italian Fascists if you want to |
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Boojatta (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 12:37 PM Response to Reply #13 |
18. "There are ideological underpinnings to fascism, as there are to capitalism" |
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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 12:42 PM Response to Reply #18 |
19. Where is the law that says an ideological system needs to be written down before it occurs? |
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Boojatta (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 12:48 PM Response to Reply #19 |
20. Where does Protestantism fit in the time line? |
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Yo_Mama (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 09:00 PM Response to Original message |
7. Pragmatism? |
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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 09:08 PM Response to Reply #7 |
10. Wikipedias definitions shouldn't be parsed literally. |
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bvar22 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 02:01 PM Response to Reply #10 |
29. Hmmm. A lot like "Centrism" in the Democratic Party. |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 09:14 PM Response to Reply #7 |
14. What is the Führerprinizip but pragmatism. |
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FLAprogressive (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 09:16 PM Response to Original message |
15. "pragmatism" is a favorite word of the DLC/Third Way. |
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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-28-09 09:29 PM Response to Original message |
16. Excellent post JVS. One minor bone to pick (which you later clarify) |
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Boojatta (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 12:51 PM Response to Reply #16 |
21. "theft of the word as a crude power grab" |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 12:56 PM Response to Reply #21 |
22. Since Lenin adopted the elimination of the bourgeoisie as a matter of both theory and practice,,, |
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Boojatta (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 01:06 PM Response to Reply #22 |
24. How do you determine that any ism (such as "socialism") |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 01:09 PM Response to Reply #24 |
25. By reading. |
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Boojatta (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 01:19 PM Response to Reply #25 |
26. When do you think capitalism and communism first existed? |
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cali (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 01:00 PM Response to Original message |
23. great post |
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ThomWV (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 01:43 PM Response to Original message |
28. I think you have misread the history of the Nazi Party and misunderstand Fascism |
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Bucky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 04:53 PM Response to Reply #28 |
41. Thank you. Perfectly said |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 05:25 PM Response to Reply #28 |
46. You're considering the period after the establishment of the dictatorship, and in particular the war |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 02:33 PM Response to Original message |
30. "And therefore all pragmatists are Nazis" -- Jeez, doesn't anyone know logic of converse, inverse, ? |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 02:35 PM Response to Reply #30 |
31. This thread was a response to a thread that accused all the "purists" of Nazi-like behavior |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 02:41 PM Response to Reply #31 |
32. And therefore Nelson Mandela is a fascist |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 02:42 PM Response to Reply #32 |
33. That's your inference, not mine. Have fun denouncing everyone |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 02:56 PM Response to Reply #33 |
34. "denouncing everyone"? I'm not denouncing. I'm objecting to blanket denunciation of pragmatists |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 03:10 PM Response to Reply #34 |
35. You're the one who called Mandela a fascist |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 03:26 PM Response to Reply #35 |
36. Uh, I was being ironic |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 03:29 PM Response to Reply #36 |
37. Now you're attributing an argument to me that I didn't make. |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 04:40 PM Response to Reply #37 |
38. I was attributing a style of logical reasoning, not the specific argument |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 04:51 PM Response to Reply #38 |
39. "If you are not pragmatic, you are not a Nazi." is exactly what I am providing info to conclude |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 05:14 PM Response to Reply #39 |
43. As Emily Litella would say, "never mind" |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 05:19 PM Response to Reply #43 |
44. What would be the point of writing in a manner that does not lead the reader up to the precipice... |
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ThomWV (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 05:08 PM Response to Reply #30 |
42. I don't think you have to go that far |
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leftofthedial (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 04:53 PM Response to Original message |
40. indeed |
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anigbrowl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 05:25 PM Response to Original message |
45. Godwin fail in thread title. |
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JVS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 05:26 PM Response to Reply #45 |
47. It's not a godwin fail to mention nazis in a thread about nazis |
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anigbrowl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-29-09 05:36 PM Response to Reply #47 |
48. Silly me, I thought it was meant to be a thread about the evils of pragmatism. |
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