Dear Governor Dean, we need to talk about what you said about the 70s "left" in our party.

[madfloridian]

You joined many other Democrats through the years today in your interview on Morning Joe today....you joined them in speaking carelessly and offhandedly about the true nature of the Democratic "left" through the years.

Before I go into more details...I want to say that never ever at anytime should the "left" of the Democrats be compared with or spoken of in the same breath with the extremists on the right who are plaguing the Republican party.

Never.

What you said today on Morning Joe was this...about 1 minute 43 seconds into the video was this.

Dean on Morning Joe

You spoke of the problem the Republican Party has right now having to contend with the religious right and far right in their party who allow no opinions but theirs. In that part you were right.

You said they had to overcome that problem...and you added "just as we had to overcome the far left in the 70s."

Wrong.

There was never a time that the "left" in our party was anything like the bigoted ideologues who make up the "right" in their party.

Our "left" stood up against the Vietnam war in the era of which you speak. The Democrats ignored them, and now we have Iraq and Afghanistan, should I say the 2nd Iraq war. We were right in the 70s, Vietnam was an unnecessary war. So was Iraq, and Afghanistan can not be won militarily.

Our "left" has always been for the needy, the poor, the downtrodden. We have always supported the rights of women to make their own medical choices, we have supported the rights of gays. Some in the conservative wing of our party do not support these things.

They, the Conservadems, are the outliers of our party, not us on the left.

We on the "left" have stood up for health care reform, against unnecessary wars. We have stood for the unions and for the working man.

We on the "left" have fought against the strengthening control of the religious right on our government.

We are not at all like the religious right extremists. They preach contempt for gays, they think women are to be submissive to their husbands, bear children whether they want to or not. They are intolerant of the poor...they believe if you are poor you deserve it and if you are rich you deserve it.

They think they are superior, and they do not want the government helping those who have financial problems. Exceptions...when they get in finanial trouble. One of the "teabaggers" had some words with us about not appreciating Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. I asked him how he would feel not to have his disability pension. He said what was I talking about. I said Beck and Limbaugh consider that a government handout.

Governor Dean, you are in a position to have great influence on the direction of this party. It is pretty damn obvious that no matter what you say or do you will not be accepted by the powers that be. Period bottom line. You should consider not being fearful of aligning yourself more closely with "the left" of our party. We really are good people, sensible and caring.

It hurt me to hear you say that Accountability Now was too left for you. You could have great influence in continuing the change you brought to the party.

It hurt me to see you refer to the 70's "left". It showed you had been around the DC insiders too long.

And never ever compare the "left" in our party to the "right" on the Republican side. We are much kinder, more considerate, more caring than they will ever be. There is no comparison between the two groups.

You could be a great influence on the grassroots of the party, but you will have to stop saying things like that. You have been very much like the "left" of our party in many ways. Just drop the language of DC before it becomes too much a part of you.

[Sebastian Doyle]

1. Dean said that?

Damn, I'm as disappointed by that as you are :evilfrown:

[madfloridian]

4. I was not surprised....just upset.

In his You Have the Power he made it clear he was never really far left. I can be okay with that, but his statement today showed he did not understand that we are NOT anything like the far right.

Our Demcoratic leaders often talk of us like that, but I did not think he would lately.

[Blue_In_AK]

2. If he said that

I'm extremely disappointed.

[Lorien]

The dirty f*cking hippies were right

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x285487

I was still in High School when the '70's ended, but I still consider myself a "'70's far left liberal"!

[madfloridian]

9. Yes, the DFHs were completely right.

.

[tabbycat31]

16. I'd fit a 70s "far left liberal" pretty well

and I was in utero when the 70s ended

[reggie the dog]

67. I fit the far left liberal bit too

and I was born in 1979. Hell I am on the far left here in France (green/communist/unionist)and the right in France is like the left in the USA, so you can imagine where my place in the Democratic party is. Yeah, I was for Kucinich, still want to see him as president in 2016.

[thunder rising]

3. ohhhh ffffffuuuuuuucccccckkkkkkkkk .... he did not say that ... apology Howard; now is good

maybe he is really done with us.

[ecstatic]

5. I respect your view on his comments, but I think you

and some others never really understood who the real Dean is. You've turned him into something he is not. As a former Deaniac, I've always embraced Dean for exactly who he is--a sensible/pragmatic left leaning centrist who is more concerned with getting things done than with fantasy idealism, etc.

[madfloridian]

7. Not true. I have alway known he was a centrist.

I did not turn him into anything but that.

However right now he is pretty much out of the insider loop. He does not have to say things about the left like that. It shows a lack of understanding of who we are.

I am surprised.

[The Magistrate]

12. It Is Always A Pleasure, Ma'am, To Find Myself In Agreement With Gov. Dean

[madfloridian]

18. No worries for the conservative wing of the party, Magistrate.

They have the party firmly in their grip. Even people like me who only became really part of the left after the Iraq War, the bankruptcy bill, and the FISA and Military Commissions Act....are judged just as harshly.

The Conservadems are in control. The ones who stood with Bush for the Iraq War, the ones who mocked those of us who opposed Iraq.

Still in control.

Never has our left been like their extreme right. They have manipulated us by saying we are.

That's a shame, and there appears no one left to speak out and say the truth of the matter.

[The Magistrate]

21. The 'Far Left' In That Period, Ma'am, Was Like The Present Extreme Right In This Particular

It managed to affront and offend a very great proportion of people who had no particular ideological bend either way, and moved them to reject the party they saw as aligned with it, or even captive to it. In the period after 1968, the Democratic Party paid a very great price for this on the national level of politics.

The extreme right of the present day is doing the same thing to the Republican party, affronting and offending a great many people who have no particular ideological bent one way or another, and moving them to reject the party they see as aligned with it, and captive to it. With a decent helping of luck to go with the political skills of President Obama and his administration, this will prove a generational revulsion that will last as long the reaction we suffered under....

[madfloridian]

22. Not true. I was a staunch Southern Baptist, a Republican family.

I loved the protestors for doing what they did. Many people did. Many people who were too staid to be like them for fear of family disapproval.

I say good for the DFHs and may they rise again.

And Howard Dean could be a real leader now, but he won't if he puts down the left. That is twice now, and it is not sitting well.

[The Magistrate]

27. The Statement, Ma'am, Is Not That No One Liked Them

But that many more did not than did, at least among the voting public. Indeed, the sort of attraction they held for younger people, against the inclinations of their elders, which you hint at in your comment, was one of the things many people intensely disliked about them at the time.

You have no reason whatever to suppose that Gov. Dean is not speaking his honest opinion on the matter, or that it is a newly formed opinion, contrary to some previous view.

[madfloridian]

31. It is and has been his honest opinion of the "the left".

If he distances from us after being shunned by party leadership....he will have no base of support.

Fear of including "the left" in the party is going to come back to bite the Democrats.

We are and never were anything like the hateful bigots on the right. Never.

Yes, I do include myself on "the left" now.

[The Magistrate]

34. Gov. Dean, Ma'am, Seems Competent To Handle His Own Affairs....

[madfloridian]

36. But he appears to be distancing from the base of the party...

and going back to being a centrist full time. It is the only way he will survive in this political world.

Me, I gave out on passion last year. My credit card has no political payments on it now, maybe one or two now and then...especially the ACLU.

I trusted too many people and am see them going sharp right now.

They won't need us for two years and four years....and I am getting too old to care which party is in control if it doesn't stand for the right things.

[The Magistrate]

38. Just Who Comprises The 'Base' Of The Party, Ma'am

Is a question some seem to have only a hazy grasp of, since they can be seen maintaining that persons and actions which meet with the approval of nine in ten of its members are offensive to its 'base'....

[madfloridian]

40. The base is whoever you say it is, Magistrate.

We have been down this road too often, sir.

Not going to argue.

[The Magistrate]

43. The Base Of Any Organization, Ma'am, Is That Body Of Persons Who Can Be Relied On For Its Support

[madfloridian]

44. They will learn their base in 2010 and 2012 if they keep going right.

I speak of the conservative Democrats who are grabbing hold of our party and not letting go.

I speak not so much of Obama, but I speak of those who should be taking the right stances and not voting in fear of the right wing and excusing it because they might lose.

[The Magistrate]

46. Here We Agree, Ma'am

We have reached a point of numbers where we can afford some losses, and some people in the Senate particularly are going to have to step up and stand to the enemy's fire. Most of their proclaimed fears are baseless; the thing that will subject them to the greatest electoral danger is standing apart from President Obama, and the thing that will bring them the greatest electoral benefit is standing behind him. President Obama is genuinely popular, and it is as dangerous to stand against a popular fellow as it is to oppose a lucky one.

[KoKo]

59. Well said MF....I heard Dean's comments. He also said the same thing

on CNBC the other morning. But, remember he's now a hired "consultant" for MSNBC. So, hey...it's a job now. Whether he truly believes what he said, or is now just one more "talking head" would be something we won't know.

I was sad to hear him say that about the Dem Left in the 70's. As I remember, he dropped out of school and was a ski bum for a few years during that time. Maybe he wanted to get away from it all. That might be a clue to where he was in his mind at the time.

[Leopolds Ghost]

23. Why should I care about 40 more years if the policies of the 70s Dems affront and offend you?

Here's the administration voting to help fund a 6-lane highway in my home county, bluest in the nation. The primary beneficiary? The great-grandson of Stephen Jay Gould, who bought up all the commercial land on both sides of the highway. Meanwhile they're defunding mass transit that got built by those 70s "wackos" you guys dislike. Typical.

Oh, and they're still letting your phone company spy on all domestic communications under FISA. And the new HUD secretary and Congress wants to further defund public housing and block Katrina survivors from returning to public housing in New Orleans. Because Clinton opposed public housing, you feel it would be "wacko" to go left of Clinton?

[The Magistrate]

24. You Should Not, Sir, Mistake Dispassionate Analysis Of An Event

For personal feelings towards the objects scrutinized. Unless you can demonstrate there was great affection among the middle of the road people of our country for the 'far left' of the period in question, reflected in votes for candidates for national office in the several decades following on the '68, there is really not much point to pressing this exchange.

[madfloridian]

26. They have done this to anti-war people through the years in our country.

And then go right into the next war, even if it is unwinnable.

No one has to prove anything to have an opinion.

The media has been on the side of those who support war for so long. We are lucky to get little glimmers now and then.

But I am backing off from responding to you. I have seen too much lately of your apparent contempt for anything even near the left.

[The Magistrate]

33. To The Degree An Opinion Is Based On Fact, Ma'am, The Question Of Proof Will Arise....

In comment on 'the left' distinction must be maintained between ideas one supports, and the means by which persons attempt to advance them in political life in a particular setting. It is quite possible to attempt to do good in a way that is blundering, self-defeating, and counter-productive; indeed, that is pretty common....

[madfloridian]

39. It is quite possible to do evil in a smooth-talking, smiling manner

I feel right now like there is not a single person in the Democratic party who is not embarrassed by "the Left" in the midst.

There is no need for that. We are not the hateful bigots the others are.

Meanwhile, it is a good thing in one way....it is saving us much money each month.

[The Magistrate]

41. Absolutely It Is, Ma'am....

[KoKo]

61. I find comfort in Firedoglake, Digby and other sites...who

support the "Dirty Fucking Hippies." And, since I was not a druggie or hippie but a very ordinary person who protested against the Vietnam War on campus and worked on a newspaper to try to get a union at my University for employees who were so underpaid, you might say I was a socialist...but I wasn't.

I was ordinary...but I had the sympathies with what the Dirty Fucking Hippies were doing in calling attention to the environment, civil rights and peace.

To paint us with broad brush is what the Mainstream Media has done for decades now. With biased documenataries on MTV and whatever showing the flamboyant Left agitators and the scene in Haight-Ashbury Rolling Stones Concerts, etc. as flashy examples of the DFH's. Thousands of us "ordinaries" were working to bring change where we could. You wouldn't have known we were there, since the Media reported on the extremes. The extremes were what got the attention to the "change," though. Sadly...extremes are often needed to get attention to any "cause" or "change."

[The Magistrate]

64. Just As Today, Ma'am, It Is Extremists On The Right Who Draw The Attention Of The People

And become in the popular mind the face of the right and the Republican party, to the great detriment of both. With any luck, Republicans and rightists will be having a mirror of this exchange twenty years in the future, with an energetic claque denying stoutly that the 'tea-baggers' and 'birthers' and 'kill the queers' types so prominent at the start of the century have done any harm to rightist prospects in national elections....

[reggie the dog]

71. The extreme right is about hate, war, and greed

the extreme left is about caring for people and the environment and working against hate and war. The goals of peace, lowered pollution, and a society in which we all care for each other is a great goal. The extreme left is excellent. The extreme rights goals are division, greed, gunshots, warfare, death, and hate. The extreme righ is seen as wackos because they are. How is it wacky to want clean air and water, peace, and solidarity between people? The USA is fucked. We get it in a lot of EU countries. Denmark, Finland, Sweeden, France, Belgium, the Netherlands where we still have a real left and where the political spectrum is far to the left of that of the USA. The problem is the corporations which have brainwashed the US electorate are trying to do to these aforementioned countries what they have done in the USA and the UK. We strike and fight them every step of the way and you know what. We win, we get national health insurance and care, we get 5 weeks paid vacation (6 in Denmark) we get abortion as an UNQUESTIONED right, we have NO DEATH PENALTY.

[The Magistrate]

75. That, Sir, Is Immaterial To the Observed Fact

Which is that many in the United States regard leftists as naive, other-worldly do-gooders at best, and active anti-patriots at worst. It does not matter whether this perception is correct or not, or even whether it arose naturally or was artificially inculvated; it certainly exists, and has in the decades since '68 had a great influence on our national politics. At present the extreme right in this country seems to be buying itself a ticket on the same train, which strikes me as good thing over-all, that will be of help in getting some genuine left and progressive measures enacted here, that will certainly be widely popular once they are in place.

[reggie the dog]

77. I don't really give a damn what many people thing of leftists

Like you say the sentiment exists, but let's just work to do away with that sentiment by insisting that we are not crazy, convincing republicans one at a time that true leftist ideals are in their own interests as well as the interests of their countrypeople, and try to get control of a media outlet. Here in France may 1968 is seen by a majority of French people as a positive thing, and leftist things like social services (while despised by the segment of the right who wants to adopt a dog eat dog economic system) are liked by peole on the right and the left.

[The Magistrate]

81. Then You Are Not Well Suited, Sir, To Analyzing And Participating In Political Actionn

People seldom appear more crazed then when insisting they are not crazy. What is happening now is that the right in this country is taking on, in the popular mind, the role of the ludicrous and loony. It is a role only one group gets to fill at a time....

[madfloridian]

82. Meanwhile we have the very sane Magistrate....

to let us know when we are not suited to take part in politics.

Thank Goddess for that small blessing. :eyes:

[reggie the dog]

84. I vote in 2 countries

In one country the whole political system is skewed to the right. Voting there sucks because I hold my nose and vote for the least bad corporatist. This country is the USA.

In the other country the whole political system is skewed to the left. The right wing here is like the Democrats in the USA. The left is, well, the left. We have unionists, communists, and the main opposition party the Socialists. This country is France.

I have 2 nationalities. I currently live in .... FRANCE!

[reggie the dog]

83. I am not crazy

I live in a "leftist" country where we have national health insurance, a welfare state, lower violence and higher life expectancy than in the USA. I will be participating by marching in our may day parade tomorrow. I have an MA in history so I think I can analyze political action. If the Democratic party would have embraced the far left in the 70's would they really have done worse than Reagan Mondale in 1984? How many states did the Democrats carry in 1984? One??? two???? The voters said, HMMM even the Democratic party has shunned the left, well if the left is wrong, we will vote right.....

[madfloridian]

88. Don't let him get to you.

Just have your say. :hi:

[reggie the dog]

99. thanks

I love debating people too, so it does not bother me when folks do not share the same opinions as me. Sometimes we even convice each other to change our minds!

[Hannah Bell]

70. Stephen Jay Gould? the deceased biologist?

[wyldwolf]

53. what I alway find amazing is how people on DU deny this.

:shrug:

It's like some odd amnesia or revisionist history. People on the left simply refuse to acknowledge how their actions, despite good intentions, have been detrimental to the Democratic party's success at various points in history.

[reggie the dog]

72. it was not the actions of people on the left, it was corporate media

pounding away about the crazy hippies, or the loony peace activists and the gulliable people falling hook line and sinker for their corporate masters mindfuck.

[anigbrowl]

78. Sure...SDS, weathermen, etc., all inventions of the corporate media

:tinfoilhat:

[reggie the dog]

85. the idea that these organizatons were wrong

that was the invention of the corporate media. The corporate media has a strange habit of taking the side of war mongers and demonizing peace movements.

[anigbrowl]

95. Planting bombs != a peace movement, sorry

[The Magistrate]

80. That, Sir, is Anachronistic as A Clock Chiming Twelve In MacBeth....

Several things combined to achieve the effect.

A flamboyant element of the anti-war left crossed the line from opposing the war in Viet Nam to identifying with the enemy, and made no bones about doing so. This greatly incensed a good portion of the patriotic working people in the country.

A decent proportion of the activist left at the time accordingly responded to this hostility by taking working people who 'did not get it' as the enemy, to be ridiculed, mocked, and otherwise denigrated. This set in place from both sides a major estrangement between intellectuals on the left and working people, who during the New Deal had been sympathetic at lest, and often supportive, of the left here.

With this mutual estrangement, the intellectual left ceased to pay much attention to labor issues, and turned its principal focus to 'lifestyle' issues, in various social 'liberation' movements. These added to the earlier rift a perception of frivolousness and hedonistic excess, and, particularly in racial matters, some very ugly features, the most salient being that a bunch of 'college kids' were demanding white workers pay the whole bill for a segregated past, and do so in ways that would never touch the well-off people forcing bussing and affirmative action on them and their children.

[reggie the dog]

86. we found something we totally agree on

"A decent proportion of the activist left at the time accordingly responded to this hostility by taking working people who 'did not get it' as the enemy, to be ridiculed, mocked, and otherwise denigrated. This set in place from both sides a major estrangement between intellectuals on the left and working people, who during the New Deal had been sympathetic at lest, and often supportive, of the left here.

With this mutual estrangement, the intellectual left ceased to pay much attention to labor issues, and turned its principal focus to 'lifestyle' issues, in various social 'liberation' movements. These added to the earlier rift a perception of frivolousness and hedonistic excess, and, particularly in racial matters, some very ugly features, the most salient being that a bunch of 'college kids' were demanding white workers pay the whole bill for a segregated past, and do so in ways that would never touch the well-off people forcing bussing and affirmative action on them and their children."


you hit the nail on the head on this one! Whatever our disagrements about "leftists" you do in fact demonstrate a great understanding of just what the hell happened. chapeau mon ami! We started to get the same problem in France but to a lesser extent. The Socialists never gave up on labor issues, they picked up on lifestyle issues which alienated some working class voters, but what can you do? These lifestlye questions are good. Right wing president Chirac pushed for and got a constitutional amendment banning the death penalty.

[The Magistrate]

90. Always A Pleasure To Find Points Of Agreement, Sir!

Differences here are generally less than meets the eye, and that is probably the case between us, particularly on this matter. A problem cannot be remedied if it is not clearly viewed, and people who want to build leftist influence in U.S. politics cannot get anywhere unless they face up to how it waned in the first place. Well into the decade of the sixties, the predominant political orientation here was center-left, with most people drawing a clear distinction between Communist, and leftists and liberals, and regarding conservative reactionaries as figures of fun consigned to permanent minority status. A great deal of this owed to the demonstrated bankruptcy of the right in the on-set of the Great Depression, and the economic benefit so many enjoyed from the more or less left policies of President Roosevelt's New Deal. If we want the left to again enjoy wide popular support, we are going to have to get back to working to improve the quality of their lives, in blunt terms of larger paychecks for safe and steady work, and a call by right on the surplus work creates when they face difficulties of health and old age and economic crisis. That needs to be the focus, and we need to press our representatives in Congress to enact laws that can achieve these things, and make clear to President Obama this is the change we want, and voted for in putting him into office.

[anigbrowl]

96. +1. Motivations don't automatically justify methodologies.

[reggie the dog]

97. you are right

I see exactly where you are coming from. Even if the people bombing for peace would have saved many lives if their tactics had been a success their actions easily alienate a majority of people in most cases.

[reggie the dog]

73. it was not the actions of people on the left, it was corporate media

pounding away about the crazy hippies, or the loony peace activists and the gulliable people falling hook line and sinker for their corporate masters mindfuck. Scaring people because you are too progressive or too nice is not like scaring people away for being too regressive or too filled with hate.

[reggie the dog]

68. Johnson fucked up with Vietnam

that pissed off lots of people. My father voted for Nixon because Johnson got him drafted.

[anigbrowl]

79. +1

[Elidor]

101. Ah, yes. Political expediency must always trump moral principles

And people who protested against a needless war and all the senseless suffering and slaughter that it entailed are somehow the equivalent of those who now wish to continue senseless wars and torture and American imperialism.

If only they had cut their hair and worn nice suits, you would have taken their message to heart!

No doubt you agree with the sentiment in my sigline: "People who don't believe the US should torture, spy on its own citizens or invade foreign lands based upon lies must not only be ignored, they must be aggressively repudiated, in order to win elections and govern." - Digby

I thank you for revealing once again exactly what you stand for.

[wyldwolf]

8. yep, spot on.

[razors edge]

13. I was a Deaniac as well.

But I never fooled myself about his position.

He was crucified and buried by the media because he was honest about their tactics and would have made their bullshit harder to peddle, not because of his left leaning positions.

They were looking for a way to get rid of him, and it just so happened a nutty moment blown out of context did the job. If it hadn't they would have continued until they found one that did.




edit for clarity, left out a word

[wyldwolf]

6. lol

[FLAprogressive]

10. definite dissapointment.

[kohodog]

11. Yuck

I thought he was better than that. All the meet ups, money, etc and he turns out to be a turd. After the presser tonight I am more impressed with Obama than ever. I don't have his patience or rationalism. I want everything to change now, but I have the sense he is moving the chess pieces with deliberation and sees a few moves ahead of me. At least I hope that is the case. Other than Geitner his other policies seem to be moving forward.

[razors edge]

14. I think he was saying

the Repukes have to overcome the stigma associated with the far right the way the Democrats have had to overcome the stigma of the far leftists that had turned off the centrists (reinforced by the media to great effect), until the center got tired of being fucked over too.

He is a great strategist, I think he was just speaking his mind on what the pukes need to do to overcome their the piss poor situation.

[madfloridian]

42. That's the problem. The Democrats look on "the left" as a stigma.

Good point. Well made.

There is no one who really stands up for us now. The far right views get more attention than ours do.

[Kaleva]

48. I agree

Be perceived as being too far to the right or left is a great way to insure that the other party will have control of the White House.

[tritsofme]

15. Will the left throw Dean under the bus? lol

Too rich.

[madfloridian]

20. This post "The Dirty F***king HIppies were right?" got 207 recommends.

But when I stand up and say they were right....then it seems to upset people.

The Democrats have got to stop marginalizing the left of our party, or they will soon be more accepting of the right wing of the other party.

Here's the video that got 207 recommends.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x285487#285569

[endarkenment]

65. Just because we have been right about everything

is no reason to stop throwing us under the bus at every opportunity.

[reggie the dog]

69. you hippies were and are still right

that is why I became a dirty fucking hippie after about 2 years in the university studying history and sociology, I voted Libertarian and Republican in 1998 and started voting Democrat and communist if they were on the ballot by 2000 once I realized that you hippies were about so much more than cool music and cool drugs.

[frazzled]

17. I was a member of the left in the 70s

and there were some extremes that the OP fails to mention that we partook of.

I, for one, remember sporting a Mao button, and you could not have convinced me that the Cultural Revolution was not a good thing: a righting of injustices and the road to the worker's paradise. It wasn't probably until the early 90s that I understood the depredations of that era for the Chinese people. I could cite many such examples.

The point is: this was not where the American people were at the time, and our efforts to push Democratic politicians into extreme opposition to the then-current anti-Communist sentiment (much of which itself was overboard) was as damaging to the image of the party, in political, electoral terms, as the extreme positions of today's right-flank are to the Republican Party.

It's not about who's wrong or right (newsflash: those wingnuts think they are all about kindness and consideration and little babies and puppy dogs). It doesn't matter whether your motives are noble or not (I thought my ideological embrace of Mao was noble and supportive of the workers). Dean was speaking about politics: and there was a lot of stuff that emerged from the late sixties and seventies that, rightly or wrongly, did have negative political consequences for the mainstream "liberal" Democratic Party.

[madfloridian]

47. And the hatred and bigotry from the right wing only gives them more love...

from many in our party who fear them.

I had friends who had loved ones, fiancees who were MIA and POW in Vietnam. Some knew theirs were dead, the others waited and some never knew.

I knew one family who lost two sons in Vietnam. I remember their standing there in the church at the funeral of the one my age. The father, a judge, died soon after...some called it heartbreak.

Yet our party fears the reputation given to "the left" by groups like the DLC and the media.

And we go on to the next war as our party speaks of the left with ridicule.

[EFerrari]

19. Et tu, Howard?

[leftstreet]

25. Guess Howard would have shit himself over the Left of the 1930s

Let's try:

Communist Party / Popular Front
Young People's Socialist League
Workers Party of America
Trotskyists and the Socialist Workers Party

not to mention a somewhat militant industrial union movement

To characterize the 'left' of the 70s as extreme is just so much bullshit. What's the lad smokin'?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

28. The problem in the party during the 70s was leadership, not the left.

It's easy to blame the left but who was driving? Can anyone even remember?

The leadership then didn't goad and court the left the way the current Republican party goads and courts the far right. We were shunned then as we're shunned now despite the fact that historically, we turn out to be right most of the time, lol.

[madfloridian]

29. The left has usually right....and nearly always been shunned.

Very true.

We tweak their consciences and make them uncomfortable.

[EFerrari]

32. They were embarrassed when Nixon really did turn out to be a criminal

and they've never forgiven us for it.

If the left garnered half of the respect the far right nut cases do in their party, Ronald Raygun would have been prosecuted for his crimes against humanity and this benighted nation would not have mourned that old felon's passing for a week.

[ShortnFiery]

63. But at the heart of all matters in D.C. one only needs to FOLLOW THE MONEY.

The power elite of the banking industry and the military industrial complex RULE our National Policies. Us little people believe that we have a say with our vote - but the Third Way and Blue Dog Democrats will ensure the "status quo" that allows the RICH to become RICHER. No doubt "the right" is now known as emanating from FAR TOO MANY of our democratic Senators.

[anonymous171]

93. That's my Left. Back then we didn't fuck around. nt

[Odin2005]

30. Fortunately I'm way too young to care about the Boomers' political soap operas 35 years ago.

*YAWN*

[EFerrari]

35. Without those "soap operas" there would be no Obama and

no Hillary Clinton. You're welcome. :)

[endarkenment]

66. plus his sorry ass would be drafted in Iraqistan right now.

[reggie the dog]

76. you have a quote from FDR on the bottom of your posts

and do not care about history?

[Occam Bandage]

37. Uh-oh. Is there some tension between MF and her Howie?

[NYC_SKP]

45. FAIL: He said, "Just like we had to overcome the far left in the seventies" He is right.

I understood exactly what he meant, and I agree.

I think the Left he's talking about was Left of your Left. He said Far Left.

To be against the Viet Nam war and against poverty and to be pro-union was not exclusively Far Left.

The Left and large parts of the center and the right felt the same way!

[madfloridian]

49. I am sorry, but the conservative Democrats consider all of us far left.

They have no tolerance for dissenting voices. They called us anti-war fringe in 2003. I guess Dean learned his lesson well. He also spoke against the group planning to run candidates against those who did not vote with their constituents. That stunned me.

They have a strangle hold on this party right now, especially in the Senate.

We will have to see what the future holds.

[NYC_SKP]

50. I think he was talking about a very visible and disruptive element.

And this element gave the illusion that the rest of the left was whacky.

It is a fact, he's talking about that fringe, I'm sure, and not the left part of the democratic party at that time.

And he's right, it did not do the party good, and Republicans are as a group suffering the stigma of the craziest few on the fringe.

He did not put us down, most of us don't seem to feel slighted by his words.

I guess we must agree to disagree on this one.

[EFerrari]

52. He couldn't have been talking about any fringe because fringe

can't destabilize the whole party. The disruptive "fringe" wasn't made up of Democrats in the first place.

The idea that the left is "wacky" was right wing bs that the party leaders allowed to take root for their own purposes. It's a wedge that politicians use when it's convenient.

[EFerrari]

51. The anti-war movement defined the far left in that era. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

62. And the anti-war left will WORK to end the occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan - yet no credit.

Only when we are nearly broke, mentally and financially will be give up the ghost ... the Military Industrial Complex OWNS Barter Town.

It will go something like this in real terms: "We decided to leave ... after we were kicked out." :grr:

[Hannah Bell]

94. the "far left" of the 70s had nothing to do with the democratic party.

[quaker bill]

54. Dean is spot on

and as usual, he does not care about the feathers he ruffles in saying it. In '04 lots of people here argued that Howard was insufficiently "Left". When he was Governor of Vermont, he had plenty of detractors on the "left".

This "left" was more about ideological purity than its inclusive language would suggest. It ran bruising campaigns for McGovern and against Carter that went to the convention floor. It caused us to lose elections that we should have been able to win.

I was part of it.

Now I will grant that the Democratic "left" of the 1970s was but a pale imitation of the Repubican right of today. Our movement was largely sane and standing for the sort of change that we (as a people) are now beginning understand was needed all along. But there was some of this same lack of true inclusiveness we needed to get around to again form the governing majority we have today. Bill Clinton was important in this process, even though I did not agree with him in several areas, I can recognize how his able handling of the economy and budget made the party credible again to the vast public. He got this one big thing absolutely and undeniably correct, a point we were able to make stick over and over again in the run up to 2008.

There is a comparison between the two groups. Both possessed a fairly uncompromising ideology that was sufficiently unaccomodating of the mainstream sentiment to render their respective parties incapable of forming a governing majority. My hope is that the Republican right will spend a great many years figuring this out. I think they have a good way to go before they even hit the bottom and I am enjoying the show.

A difference between the groups is that even at its greatest strength, the Democratic party still retained some control over at least the House of Representatives during most of this period, only losing all control for a few years. We were able to blunt some of the worst Republican initiatives, like not allowing Social Security to be taken over and plundered by Wall Street.

I keep recalling that at his peak, FDR had to deal with a Senate with 16 Republicans in it. I can see how the Republicans are headed in this direction again and I am not complaining at all.

[eomer]

55. I'm not sure I agree with Dean but I do have a gripe that is somewhat along the same lines.

First off, I don't know about the 70s. I was not at all politically aware during that part of my life. So I'm talking about the way things are now.

My gripe is with certain members of the left who give the rest of us a bad rep. Specifically all those who use the Che Guevara avatar or wear a Che Guevara t-shirt, as well as those who support and defend Fidel and Raul Castro. Guevara and the two Castros committed war crimes of the most serious kind. To support and defend them is, if you ask me, no different than those on the right who support and defend murderers Bush and Cheney.

I wish that I didn't have to deal with people thinking that I'm one of those leftists (supporter of Guevara, Fidel, and Raul) whenever I support ideals and programs that are leftist.

[JHB]

56. I think a useful addition to this discussion would be...

...some defining of terms. Obviously Dean couldn't go into a sidebar like that on a show like Morning Joe, but a worthwhile question for him is "what exactly was the 'far left of the 70s', and what was it about it that you had to overcome?"

That's something very important to do, because the terms of political debate have been dragged so far to the right in that time that people aren't necessarily refering to the same things when they speak of "the left" (and that's even within the left, much less adding in condervatives habit of lumping everything together as "the radical left").

Rule #1 of preventing the circular firing squad: be clear of what you're talking about so that you don't start talking past each other.

[RevolutionToday]

57. The problem with the Democratic left

Has always been a deluded naivete where you do the propaganda work for your party while claiming to stand for something better. Join the actual left and leave the centrist loonies that believe justice is found in protests alone.

[LWolf]

58. That really hurts.

Truly. When Obama said something similar, very early in the primary process, I wasn't surprised. It's one of the many reasons I've never been able to muster any "hope" in his administration.

This surprises and disappoints me. The left has faithfully supported and defended Dr. Dean since he stepped onto the national stage.

I'd sign your letter with you if I could.

[ShortnFiery]

60. Perhaps CNBC has brought the "Corporations Know Best" philosophy back HOME to Dr. Dean.

:thumbsdown:

Unfortunately, Obama has talked about "the excesses of the 70s." Yes, it was so flippant of Jimmy Carter to start us on the path to energy independence. The moment Saint Reagan landed in the White House, those nasty ole excessive solar panels were ripped off of the roof. :(

It's all a way to provide cover to power elite national politicians --- to keep us SERVING the Corporations owned "by the few" who truly RUN THIS COUNTRY. :nuke:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

74. "Liberals" aren't averse to Red Baiting.

The fascists will shoot you.
The Conservatives will applaud the Fascists.
The Moderates will watch it on TV.
And, the Liberals will weep over your grave and feel guilty for turning you in.

A saying from the '60s.

[WildEyedLiberal]

87. I'm not sure why this shocks anyone. Dean's never been a "leftist"

And given that his biggest successes hinged on "reframing" the public perception of stagnant liberalism/leftism, this comment shouldn't shock anyone either. This statement is very much in line with his entire inclusiveness/50 states strategy - he's never been beholden to old leftism, and it doesn't make sense that he'd start now.

[madfloridian]

89. I was speaking as one tired of "the left" being villified.

By anyone. Dean happened to be convenient on the topic today because I saw the video.

He at least appreciated that our party needed everyone on board.

I don't give a rat's you know what about the 50 state plan anymore. The usual suspects took it as a way to enrich the conservative Democrats and shut the left out even more.

I think if one really reads my post it is pointing out that our side should never be compared with the right wing.

I don't donate to any political thing anymore aside from a one time donation to DFA for the health care issue.

[WildEyedLiberal]

91. OK, fair enough

I don't really disagree... comparing "the left" to the theo-fascist far right is insulting, and I don't even consider myself a leftist.

[anonymous171]

92. The hippy wing only cares about social issues.

Just sayin' :shrug:

[reggie the dog]

100. do you mean they do not care enough about workers?

I think that many of them care about workers rights too. Certainly more so than the "centrist" dems

[blindpig]

98. You should not be surprised.

This is the attitude of the party towards the 'left' in general. They are smug in the belief that people have no alternative. Sooner or later, perhaps sooner the way things are going, they will find out how wrong they are.