I agree with the weeping father of the soldier who killed five of his peers

[malaise]

'The army broke my son'.

WTF was this 41 year old man doing on a third tour to Iraq - this time for 15 months. I don't even want to hear the words 'shooting rampage'.

FUCK WAR - it is not natural to ask people to kill period, let alone over an extended period.

It is Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the neo-cons who went on a murderous rampage.
Arrest the real criminals and let this poor man receive help.

I weep for that poor old man Mr Russell.

[customerserviceguy]

1. One question

Do you have the same compassion for those soldiers who run amok and kill off Iraqi or Afghan civilians? Or is your understanding extended only to those servicemembers who crack and kill off American soldiers?

[Demeter]

2. Bring them all home, NOW

and give them all the doctors, counseling, support, and money they need. Do the right thing, Obama. Keep those promises.

[bdamomma]

14. bringing them home and giving them mental health care should

be a number 1 priority.

[AngryOldDem]

61. It won't be. We all know that.

The way this country -- no, strike that -- this government treats its veterans is disgraceful beyond words.

Maybe when violence like this hits here -- and make no mistake, it will -- maybe, MAYBE, someone will begin to pay attention. But I doubt it.

Some of the most broken human beings I have ever met in my life have been veterans. The goverment takes and takes and takes, and shamelessly and ruthlessly exploits whatever sense of duty that made these men and women want to serve their country in the first place, and then treats them like garbage when their tours of duty are up.

I was at work when I saw this story on TV, and I cried in my office.

[brendan120678]

5. Exactly...I was about to ask the same thing. (n/t)

[MADem]

8. Very valid inquiry.

This guy, from what I have read, was deeply concerned about his retirement.

Pity someone hadn't talked to him about disability retirement. Might have saved a few lives.

[malaise]

9. I have compassion for all military people under stress

because of this illegal war. Those who enter homes and rape children must be tried and punished.

I have said for ages that the Iraq war is illegal and the US should get out of both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Lock up the Bush administration.

[nichomachus]

28. I don't know about you, but I

blame Bush & Co for all the soldier who run amok, whoever they kill. They only way to get people into the mindset to go over there are kill people is to first convince them that the people there are less than human. This is why they invent disparaging names for them -- in Vietnam it was "slope" or "gook." In Iraq, it's "Hajis" or "sand monkeys" or "rag heads." That makes it much easier to kill them. This is what they're taught in their crack military training.

And, then once you let a guy walk around among people he considers subhuman with a giant target on his back -- and then you send him back and then back again -- something bad is going to happen to a few of those people.

At least in Vietnam, they brought you home when your tour was done.

[JonLP24]

33. It is true those slurs are used among military personal

For example at CSC Scania they have "haji" shops.

But we're given briefs on culture. They have classes that teach us what 'haji' really means, how showing the bottom of your shoe is a sign of disrespect, the equivalent of the middle finger. They do give sensitivity training from the higher up but slurs are used among military personnal but slurs are not taught from the top down.

[nichomachus]

39. The guys at the top are just covering their ass

but they approve the use of the slurs. They know they're being taught at a lower level.

You can't get someone to go into a fighting zone ready to kill people if they respect the people they're there to kill as equals. To get a normal person to fire without hesitation, you need to convince him that what he's firing at isn't a real human being.

[JonLP24]

41. They are picked up because the slurs are used so commonly

But never seen them taught the slur. Someone hears it being used and they pick up on it.

My platoon Sergeant was a highly respected individual. There is no one I ever met in the Army with as much integrity as him.

However he heard soldiers using the term 'derka, derka' I have no idea what it means but he forbidden us from saying it. He said 'You wouldn't go around calling people n-'

However the term and other slurs don't seem to bother other NCOs but that one Platoon Sergeant I deployed with had more integrity then any person I ever met.

[customerserviceguy]

67. It's from the movie "Team America : World Police"

and its how the writers of that film simplified Arabic speech. It's sort of like saying that all Native Americans begin every sentence with the word, "How!".

[csziggy]

69. That could be a take off on where the name "barbarian" came from

The word "barbarian" comes into English from Medieval Latin barbarinus, from Latin barbaria, from Latin barbarus, from the ancient Greek word βάρβαρος (bárbaros). The word is onomatopoeic, the bar-bar representing the impression of random hubbub produced by hearing a spoken language that one cannot understand, similar to blah blah, babble or rhubarb in modern English.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian#Origin_of_the_term

[sammytko]

68. Isn't Haji the name of Johnny Quest's sidekick?

i know it was weird when I heard people call the workers "Hajis", but when i saw it on an official map of our base - that was going too far. The higher ups didn't realize how offensive it sounded. They named the road outside the base "Haji Highway".

[KittyWampus]

37. Hello there, yes I do have compassion for those soldiers who run amok killing Iraqi civilians

Empathy, like love, doesn't recognize labels.

[madokie]

3. I'm with you

the real crime here is the illegal war

[Hepburn]

27. Amen.

Arrest the lying war criminals and bring them to trial.

[Postman]

4. I've seen stories written that try to minimize the PTSD problem by framing it ..

in a way that makes the problem look smaller than it is...

The other day I seen a story written like....there have been 200,000 soldiers deployed to Iraq over the years but only about 12% actually claim PTSD....

My numbers may be a little off but the story is misleading. How many of those soldiers, when they are deployed, never get anywhere near a battle zone or see actual combat?

I'd like to know the percentage of soldiers who suffer from PTSD who have actually seen combat or gruesome events....

That's where the real story is.....

Joe Blow PFC fixing brakes on a humvee in a protected area shouldn't be counted in the statistics..

[Mari333]

7. depends on what region they are sent to

my stepson was sent to Abu Ghraib. he was mortared daily but didnt get up close to it. he still has problems sleeping because they were mortared at night.
on the other hand, my nephew was in Mosul. He spent days helping his fellow soldiers find body parts of his unit. and matching them with the other body parts.
he is pretty fucked up.

[JonLP24]

18. PFC Joe Blow fixing brakes goes on Convoys

In case a truck breaks down. I was in a truck driving/mechanic unit and EVERY mechanic has gone on a convoy because every convoy requires a mechanic.

SPC Torres a mechanic was in the rear of the convoy when SPC Larry Bowman got hit by an EFP, she along with PFC Evans had to drag his dead body out of the truck.

http://www.iraqwarheroes.com/bowmanl.htm

[Postman]

20. Are there soldiers deployed who shouldn't be figured in to those statistics

because they perform their duties in a way that keeps them protected from those events?

[JonLP24]

22. Probaly DFAC supervisors in Kuwait

However I NEVER heard of any of them being diagnosed with PTSD. In fact it is difficult to be diagnosed because on base doctors look for malingerers.

Those 2 I mentioned weren't diagnosed with PTSD however both got into trouble, Evans is now booted out of the Army for multiple hot test results for Marijuana.

[tomp]

21. anyway, that's already over 20,000 people.

you know how much resources it takes to take care of 20,000 people with ptsd? that would be 20,00 person-hours for simply the most cursory interview and evaluation.

also those are just the persons making the claim. i'm certain there are many who don't know they have a problem right now or are not ready to seek help for it yet.

[Mari333]

6. extended tours, non stop stress

and i think we will hear more of this. lots more.
2 occupations that people are ignoring. no one is holding the war criminals accountable for Iraq, and as long as no one does, the 'war' there continues to be legitimized.
and lets face it, the Obama admin is keeping personnel in Iraq anyway. to secure the monstrous embassy there, and to secure the contracts for the oil companies. as long as there is even ONE set of american boots on the ground there, its no good and a farce.
and afghanistan? bullshit occupation again.
I have little faith left in the government. I dont care if they are reps or dems. as long as these two occupations are sanctioned by whomever is in power I will protest.
this soldier is just one of the many who have been broken. I expect more.

[hobbit709]

10. Look at all the PTSD in Nam vets

and they were only there for ONE year ONCE unless they volunteered to go back. The percentage is only going to get worse among the ones they keep sending back over and over.
GET OUT OF IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN NOW!!!!!

[JonLP24]

12. Vietnam is a much scarier war

I would've shit my pants the first minute being over there. However I agree, get out now.

[TahitiNut]

45. Most folks have no idea.

:shrug:

[babylonsister]

11. Here's someone else who was on his third tour...

I recommend your post, because it needs to be said, over and over. This is not to discount what's happening to Iraqis, Afghanis, or anyone. It's recognizing reality of what we're doing to our citizens.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5637904&mesg_id=5637904

[malaise]

13. Too sad

:cry:
My own nephew will never be the same again.

[peace13]

19. I am so sorry.

This damn war and the crazy people that run it are a trip to hell for all of us. We continue our peace vigils twice a week in an effort to keep this madness in the face of the people. Hugs to you and good thoughts for your nephew.

[patrice]

15. Sorry to darken the honor that you pay to the Russell Family, but, from cruising around the internet

I see that it isn't unusual for some people to talk about how this story is an example of what a bunch of wusses America has become.

[malaise]

30. I'm willing to bet that most of those comments are

coming from chicken hawks

[Ganja Ninja]

34. Yup. n/t

[peace13]

16. What do we expect from years and years of war.

Obama's hands are pretty bloody now. He needs to re-think his war strategy. Our soldiers are worn out! I will register here that I feel compassion for all of our soldiers. Those that are responsible for war crimes have served under lawless politicians who have encouraged horrible crimes against mankind. If this war were a movie it would be X rated with slaves as actors. Wake up America!

[pleah]

17. K&R

:-(

[Echo In Light]

23. The few vietnam vets I've known, been friends with, worked with, have all suffered...

...and have marked psychological difficulties from the evil shit they experienced all those yrs ago - although for them I'm not so sure that it actually seems that far away/long ago.

[NNN0LHI]

24. Timothy McVeigh tried a similar defense and he was executed

I think there was a good reason McVeigh's jury didn't accept that type of defense. If they had just about any soldier who has served in a war zone could literally get away with murder.

They probably figured it was a bad precedent to set.

Don

[malaise]

31. MCVeigh planned that horrific attack

Russell appears to have snapped.

[NNN0LHI]

32. I didn't comment about the crime just the defense

[Echo In Light]

36. I disagree about McVeigh being the 'lone nut,' but follow your point

[TwilightGardener]

25. Well, this guy wasn't exactly a prince even before he went active duty--

had episodes of violence against his ex-wife, and "minor" scrapes with the law in his hometown. He was probably already an emotionally stunted prick, and his time in Iraq obviously made it worse. Let's not act as if this guy was the best and the brightest and then the Army ruined him--he was already troubled.

[TahitiNut]

43. Hey.... but at least we don't have a draft, right?

:eyes:

Gotta love that "all-volunteer" military. Uh-huh.

[ShortnFiery]

44. Three Combat Tours didn't help. Plus the fact it seems as if some of his superiors were not

all that adept in regard to basic "people skills."

I worked as a DOD Psychologist to a Battalion of Army Infantry Soldiers. You'd be amazed at "the lack" of awareness SOME company commanders had about the temptations and stressors on their troops. You put those men in a combat situation, you MUST have leaders who KNOW when a soldier is not FIT MENTALLY for battle.

Back in the old Army days (1990s), if a soldier had THREE alcohol related incidents recorded by the MPs, they would immediately be processed for Discharge. One soldier only had two before being discharged, but the second incidence involved him breaking another soldier's jaw.

What tells me that "the mental health screening" is becoming lackadaisical given our penchant for endless WAR MONGERING? :thumbsdown:

THIS GUY should NOT have been accepted in the Army to begin with (he wouldn't have met standard in the Army of the 1990s) ... however, I would bet good money that he had many encounters with the MPs. During a NON-wartime military situation, he would have been processed for discharge years ago.

[Froward69]

26. A BIG stigma is

going to see/talk to a counselor. it is viewed as a weakness among service men. the counselor can pull you out of your duties. and ruin your career.
This stigma is not only keeps people from seeking treatment but grows resentment from those ordered to seek counseling.
and SNAP irrational behavior manifests itself... resulting in the murderious actions taken in this case.

This sergeant lashed out externally. Instead of internally and becoming a suicide.

BOTH actions are a direct result of over action and the stigma in regard to counseling.

do not get me wrong I am just stating the reality I hear from my friends.

[JonLP24]

29. So true. The Army demands emotional perfection

That adds even more stress to what you already have.

[ShortnFiery]

57. Emotional perfection is often equated to detached, ice cold anti-social personalities.

In war, I'd much rather have someone with a "little emotional compassion" watching my back than a military equivalent of "American Psycho."

Good military leaders (Ret. General Anthony Zinni), show EMOTION and CONCERN for their Marines (troops) and speak their mind even if it isn't politically correct.

Unfortunately some leaders who make it to the top (General "Peaches" Petraeus) only give a damn about their career. They are truly ICE COLD ... CYBORG like their hero DICK Cheney's "Jack Bauer" (24). :wow:

[TahitiNut]

46. Gee ... maybe that's what happens when everyone in the military regards it as a "career"?

Folks should be celebrating! Hell... we DON'T have a draft! Ain't that GREAT??

:party:

:puke:

[ShortnFiery]

47. I understand that ... many soldiers who would have to seek mandatory counseling due

to an Alcohol related incident were truly ashamed, not of the incident, but because they were forced to talk with a counselor. :eyes:

One soldier, in particular, was having a very difficult time and we delved deeper into his difficulties. To make a long story short, I referred him to a psychiatrist who diagnosed him as bipolar. The company commander was FURIOUS with me for referring him. However, on his way out of the military processing he came by and told me something I'll always treasure, "You saved both my life and my marriage." :cry: :hug:

I reminded him that it was truly his accomplishment to KNOW that he needed help. However, the lithium he was on was being monitored and he was doing "much better."

Therefore, because this soldier received treatment for depression during 1991, he was processed out of the Military albeit and Honorable Discharge.

I WONDER if those soldiers who are diagnosed with Clinical Depression are Discharged or still permitted to serve?

In the Civilian World, if you've ever been treated for Depression, you are not legally permitted to own a gun.

I wonder what the REGULATIONS are now with regard to Service in the Active Duty Military, the diagnosis of Clinical Depression AND carrying a firearm?

[JonLP24]

48. Soldiers diagnosed with depression still serve

I was still serving til I got booted out for having multiple hot test results for Cannabis. I did that because I wanted out, not to avoid deploying but to be with my then wife who was living in Arizona while I was at Fort Lewis.

edited to add I was still serving despite being diagnosed with depression.

[ShortnFiery]

50. IMO, that's just insane. If a person is depressed, they are not fully "up to strength"

Unbelievable. No wonder there's a marked increase in suicides. :(

[JonLP24]

51. I agree. Like I said elsewhere in this thread

Leaders especially NCO's demand emotional perfection.

[Orsino]

35. The WAR broke the son.

The Army is the mechanism designed to deliver men into battle. It was the weakness and corruption of a president, Congress corporate media and ignorant citizenry that put this son into endless war, and kept him there.

[Beam Me Up]

38. RAMPAGE WARS -- you are so right. The war on terror is a HOAX. Everyone knows this.

The whole thing was cooked up before 9/11. The CIA had a report for invading Afghanistan on *'s desk the day before. They'd started drawing up plans for invading Iraq, to finish what PaPa * didn't complete months before. The NEOCON's needed a "New Pearl Harbor" to "rebuild America's defenses". Hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars thrown at the MIC. COUNTLESS lives lost and destroyed and for what?? These are IMPERIALIST wars of aggression FOR OIL, NATURAL GAS PIPELINE ROUTES AND CONTROL OF THE HEROIN TRADE. Since our OIL CONSUMPTION is so great our "national security" (the maintenance of our consumerist culture) is DEPENDENT upon more hydrocarbon energy than we can produce. YET at the same time, we are not developing clean, renewable energy sources. All of us need to cut back on our energy consumption. Covert intelligence agencies and their nexus with organized crime and international capital use the global illicit drug markets. All of us need to get up off our butts and get organized and PROTEST this war the way we were BEFORE the invasion of Iraq. We need MILLIONS of people in the street. We need to END the black market in illegal substances and regulate them like everything else. We need to round up the NEOCON criminals who started this DISASTER and hold them accountable for ALL their crimes, torture being only just one part of it. No one is asking WHY they had to torture to get FALSE CONFESSIONS. No one is asking the REAL questions about 9/11. These people have destroyed this country with their criminality, their lies, their evil. They've debased our military, plundered our economy, and tried -- almost successfully -- to completely undermine constitutional law. They are traitors, they are murderers, and they've committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. If WE let them get away with this NONE of us nor any that come after us will be safe from them and those who follow them. NO, they did NOT go away with the election of Obama -- this is what he is up against. This is why we must SUPPORT HIM through demonstrations of PUBLIC OUTRAGE at what has been done.

We are a SICK and wounded society because we've looked the other way FAR too long. It's time to change. NOW.

[Echo In Light]

42. Well, many throughout the world realize it's a phony war, but not enough here do

[Beam Me Up]

60. So called "progressives" need to wake the fuck up!

I don't care whether people believe "9/11 was an inside job" or not. It was but even if people don't believe it, it doesn't matter. The point is WE LIVE IN A CRIMINAL OUT OF CONTROL SOCIETY. We live in a global empire of insatiable greed that 'trickles down' to the consumerism we need to fill our empty lives. It is literally -- not figuratively -- literally KILLING US. It is killing us with toxic waste. It is killing us with toxic products. It is killing us with toxic food. It is killing us with toxic "medicines". It is killing us with a toxic disinformation, better known as LIES. It is killing us with toxic distractions. It is killing us with toxic illusions about the REAL COSTS of a consumerist culture that is driven by highly polluting non renewable energy. It is killing our bodies, our minds and our souls.

And it is killing ANYONE who gets in the way of our "divine right" to live in a consumerist dream world and it is killing the Earth itself. We have to stop killing ourselves, our children, our future and our planet. If we don't do this, if we can't wake up to what is really going on and what we MUST do to stop it, then we might as well ALL commit mass suicide in one, big nuclear conflagration. That IS where we're headed. Because hydrocarbon resources are FINITE but the DEMAND for those resources is INFINITE. Why do we think that other nations -- some them with far greater populations than our own -- are going to let US get away with plundering the last of the Earth's hydrocarbon resources? How long before this "war on terror" BULL SHIT becomes an out and out global resource war? People need to wake the hell up and fast. We don't have "decades" to figure this out.

[Echo In Light]

62. Agreed. The world sees the US for what it is, US citizens do not = scary, volatile situation

[ShortnFiery]

40. My heart breaks watching that father on TV. A tragedy all around.

But our wars are now NEVER ENDING. Why? The "poverty draft" is in full effect. You damn well bet if it was Biden's or any other Representative's son/daughter returning for third and forth COMBAT tours things would change.

But nobody in Washington gives a shit about POOR PEOPLES KIDS, i.e., if the non-investor class hurts, Wall Street Profits More from that lovely CHEAP LABOR and fodder for their corporations running the Military Industrial Complex. :grr: :nuke:

We should get our troops out of both Iraq and Afghanistan NOW, no hesitation. The longer we are there, the more enemies we are making. However, that's ideal for the Military Industrial Power Brokers. IF we get attacked, they can work up us "unwashed masses" into CHEERING for war ... just like 9/11.

All this horror and TWO OCCUPATIONS, increasing poverty and lack of employment ... is just WONDERFUL for the evil ghouls WHO RUN this country. :grr:

[ismnotwasm]

49. My son is over there

His first tour.

So here' s an echo for you, FUCK war. It's a pathological state of mind, body and soul. A deep sickness human beings developed for whatever reasons. If it ever was adaptive behavior, that stopped millennia ago.

[ShortnFiery]

52. I second that. War is terrorism. But WE, the little people MUST force our leaders to stop

this insanity, i.e., perpetual warmongering and occupations.

Nobody cares unless it happens to "a beauty queen" or "a celebrity's offspring."

This is NOT a sickness, but A PLANNED STRATEGY by our "illustrious" ruling elite for thinning the herd and maneuvering for power. To the Power Elite, the horrors of war are for their entertainment.

BRING THEM HOME NOW!!!

[Echo In Light]

54. Agreed, although it'll never happen via the voting booth

[ShortnFiery]

55. The only way - now - feasible is through UNIONS. .... Worldwide for all working people.

:thumbsup:

[ismnotwasm]

56. God

War is like every horror movie coming to life across your street.

I hate--I'm not disagreeing--but I hate the whole notion of "planned strategy" even though I know there is plenty of evidence for it, this last war being one of the most blatant. It turns my stomach. Just because I despise something doesn't make it false.

Still millions of people passively or aggressively support war as a strategy or response and that is a sickness.

[ShortnFiery]

59. Their emotions are being manipulated. However, some people are antisocial enough

to think it's great to let other people's children die for your increasing wealth.

These people need to be UNSEATED from power.

We need to get the corporations out of RUNNING our Nation ... What's sick is that more people don't WAKE UP to the fact that the power elite are punking the unwashed masses into not only giving them all their extra scraps but also to "kill and die" for the ultra-wealthy mega-corporation's power interests.

It's not SICK it's STUPID... willfully STUPID and it must stop. :(

When they come for "more and more" of our children, perhaps OTHERS will pay attention?

[JonLP24]

53. *Good vibes* sent your way

Next time you talk to your son stress to him not to become complacent. Complacency kills. Anyways I know it might be an emotional roller coaster for you but stay strong. :hugs:

[ismnotwasm]

58. Thank you

Very much. I will tell him that. He sounded so sad on the phone.
:hug:

[LibertyorDeath]

63. People will kill over an extended period time

but first you have to dehumanize them.
Killing on command is a very messy business
people react to it in so many different ways, they may end up
loving it needing it or becoming mentally unglued
because of it.

They can return home and adjust best they can
or maybe stick a gun in their mouth after killing their
children and spouse.

Either way there's no real coming home.

[Wednesdays]

64. K&R

:kick:

[iamthebandfanman]

65. whats more frightening is that most people like him

will slip thru the cracks and not even be in a position to seek medical help...

just wait to those boys and girls come home with no war to fight anymore.

[malaise]

66. Read WIlliamPitt's OP and see what's happening already

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5649919