***** HEARING Senate Judiciary - Lawyers Who Approved TORTURE THREAD #2 *****

[Subdivisions]

Thread #1 here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5645200&mesg_id=5645200

Subcmte. Examines Lawyers Who Approved Harsh Methods
Today - C-SPAN3 at 10 am (ET) - http://c-span.org">http://c-span.org

A Senate Judiciary Subcmte. looks into the legal conduct of Justice Dept.
lawyers who approved harsh interrogation techniques. One of the witnesses,
FBI agent Ali Soufan, interrogated Guantanamo detainee Abu Zubaydah.

Watch Hearing on C-SPAN3 at 10 am (ET).

[annabanana]

1. K&R Will kick this after adjournment...(links to livestreams:)

CSpan link: http://www.c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN3_wm.aspx
Senate link: http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/hearing.cfm?id=3842

Thread #1: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5645200&mesg_id=5645200

[Subdivisions]

2. Thanks anna :^) ... n/t

[Solly Mack]

3. K&R

[bdamomma]

4. kick

[bobthedrummer]

5. K&R-thanks!

[bdamomma]

6. is the committee taking a break?

[Subdivisions]

7. Yes, for a vote. Will be back shortly. n/t

[annabanana]

8. Voting on Hayes - More Repug crap going down there:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8403914

[bdamomma]

12. yes, when they act as the MAJORITY instead of the MINORITY.

we need to kick the repigs harder.

[annabanana]

9. Back!

[annabanana]

10. Zelikow up!

[Solly Mack]

11. Wheeeee

[annabanana]

13. He "remembers what it was like during 9/11"

[mikelgb]

14. did the sound drop or is it just me?

[bdamomma]

15. some feedback on this please.

this should be very good what he has to say.

[annabanana]

16. "A lot of AMericans from both parties thought we needed a program like this"

[bdamomma]

18. what torture?? it is illegal period. that's how I feel.

[Subdivisions]

17. Sounds like Zelikow is going to throw some people under the bus...

Gee, maybe he'll eventually find his conscience on 9/11.

[bdamomma]

23. I can imagine what kind of questions he will get from the repigs.

[annabanana]

25. anybody he can get his hands on

[annabanana]

19. Joined the State Dept in 2005... we mainly focused on getting admin

to adhere to CID "cruel inhuman degrading" standards of 9/11 commission

[kentuck]

20. I don't know about Phillip Zelikow.?

Or if he has another agenda?

[annabanana]

24. he sure does. . .I think this guy's exposed

[annabanana]

21. We weren't evil, just scared and wrong

[L. Coyote]

110. Bush-Bot rhetoric: War crimes and torture are a bipartisan "mistake"

Is he worried about facing war crime charges?

[bobthedrummer]

22. Philip Zelikow SourceWatch profile - Know your BFEE

Zelikow
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Philip_Zelikow

[annabanana]

26. I didn't think my colleages had ever HEARD opinon against the OLC

determinations on this subject

[annabanana]

27. so he sent his memo... which was hunted down & destroyed

[babylonsister]

28. Didn't he just say the memo has been located? nt

[annabanana]

31. they didn't get them all

[annabanana]

29. It was a "collective failure". . (you can't pin it on anyone I guess)

[Solly Mack]

30. I really don't care why you all tortured....and it is ever so much more than a "mistake"

calling the torture of people a mistake minimizes the crimes committed

There is NO "Why?" that will EVER justify or explain or excuse war crimes.

Folks can think about their "Why?" while they sit in prison.

[TheCoxwain]

32. It is not a collective failure ...

[bdamomma]

35. collective failure? who said that?

[TheCoxwain]

108. I forget

[annabanana]

33. Next up: Addicott (Jeffrey). . "approved enhanced techniques"

[annabanana]

34. We had "reservations" when we signed the "Torture Conventions"

[bdamomma]

37. I wonder if Cheney had threatened them or something

:tinfoilhat:

[kentuck]

41. First I've heard about that??

Reagan signed it and I have read nothing about reservations??

[L. Coyote]

111. Reagan's Torture Convention Signing Statement: 'Abhorrent Practice,' 'Prosecute Torturers or Extradi

Reagan's Torture Convention Signing Statement: 'Abhorrent Practice,' 'Prosecute Torturers or Extradite to Other Countries for Prosecution'
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7098


"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."

[annabanana]

36. pushing the DEFINITIONS of torture.... I hope he gets hammered

[TheCoxwain]

40. Jackass show is on .... and he is not even articulate ...

[annabanana]

38. "ill treatment" is NOT torture". . dear god

[bdamomma]

43. ill treatment, they are really throwing phrases around aren' they?

torture is torture and it is illegal, any code pinkers there?

[Solly Mack]

39. True. Not all of it was torture...but it was ALL war crimes & crimes against humanity

Cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment IS A WAR CRIME

[annabanana]

42. He says waterboarding doesn't come up to the definition of torture

[Solly Mack]

46. He can tell that to those the US charged with torture for waterboarding

[bdamomma]

48. wasn't waterboarding called water torture before?

[Solly Mack]

50. Still is...America just dances around the issue

[bdamomma]

60. torture is illegal.

don't these guys realize we broke the law and the Geneva Conventions? gets me so upset.

[Solly Mack]

66. They know...they don't care

[Solly Mack]

44. Oh bother. The US government DID engage in torture and everyone pretending

otherwise is a liar.

[bdamomma]

52. of course we did, and those who deny it are liars.

we know they did it.

[annabanana]

45. Prof Turner up next. .

[annabanana]

47. Gives a shout out to Graham

[annabanana]

49. "defining torture misses the point"

[kentuck]

53. Incarceration is not the same as torture...

No matter how awful it was.

[annabanana]

51. "good people doing bad things"

cites internment camps of Japanese Americans

[bdamomma]

56. so where is this all going to lead, just because America does it

it is legal and accepted.

[babylonsister]

54. Ugh, another apologist for the * admin? Robert Turner. nt

[annabanana]

55. He says the OLC lawyers were operating from "good intentions"

[annabanana]

57. Common article 3 applies

[annabanana]

59. (but he can see how they'd get it wrong)

[bobthedrummer]

58. Sounds like a Federalist Society member imho...

[kentuck]

61. Weak...

Very.

[Solly Mack]

62. and Roosevelt was wrong...but that doesn't excuse allowing Bush to get off on torture

It's a bullshit argument to say if so-and-so did X and it was supported...so we should be able to do Y and it be supported and not charged.

Sorry folks, I think Roosevelt was wrong. And not just him...on the issue of detaining American citizens.

FEAR is NOT an excuse for government breaking the law!

[kentuck]

67. Roosevelt incarcerating Japanese-American citizens was very wrong...

But it should not be compared with torture.

[Solly Mack]

Exactly. It's a bullshit argument.

They did it! So we should be able to do it too!

[annabanana]

63. "waterboarding is torture-lite"

[annabanana]

64. sticks in his 2 cents against prosecution

[bdamomma]

71. anyone who defends this practice is sick or trying to cover their own

a$$es. Who is questioning him?

[annabanana]

65. recess for security of Soufan to be set up...(huh??)

[annabanana]

68. Why does Soufan have enhanced security?

[Spazito]

73. When Whitehouse opened the hearing, he spoke about the needed security...

for Soufan because of threats he has recieved and asked the media to ensure they do NOT show his face.

[bdamomma]

75. maybe for what he'll say in his testimony?

[annabanana]

69. Soufan up

[annabanana]

70. FBI interrogater & investigator

[annabanana]

72. Oh I see... He is not to be televised (undercover guy)

[annabanana]

74. Methods should not be a partisan issue

[annabanana]

76. This guy should be able to tell us what works and what doesn't.

[bdamomma]

78. well torturing someone doesn't help they will say anything to stop the pain.

[annabanana]

77. Enhanced interrogation techniques should not be used... they are slow

ineffective and unreliable

[bdamomma]

81. god, did he say that?

[gkhouston]

85. Yes, and he sounds utterly credible. n/t

[annabanana]

79. We got good information with by the book techniques

"Informed investigation"

[annabanana]

80. interporsonal cognitive & emotional techniques... it outsmarts the detainee

[bdamomma]

83. oh wow, someone telling the truth is refreshing isn't it?

[annabanana]

82. physical intimidation & humilation does not work... does not elicit cooperation

[bdamomma]

87. and we know they intimidated them and humilated them.

Abu Graib.

[annabanana]

84. the contractors had to keep getting permission for harsher and harsher methods

becasue these techniques run into a ceiling (they are trained to hold up to much worse)

[annabanana]

86. These amateurish techniques waste valuable time

[TheCoxwain]

88. that will be a spear to the heart of cheneys argument

:rofl:

Loved it

[bdamomma]

91. what is he calling "amateurish techniques"?

[annabanana]

89. The full transcript of this guy's statement MUST be put online.. asap

if anyone can...

[annabanana]

90. Whitehouse questioning him now

[kentuck]

92. Repubs must find a way to discredit him...

Isn't that what they always do?

[bdamomma]

93. thanks anna for the reporting.

[annabanana]

94. You got actionable intel from him at first right?

Then you had to get him to the hospital (battlefield wounds).. AT THAT POINT YOU GOT THE INFO ABOUT KSM

[annabanana]

95. He gave up KSM BEFORE the harsh techniques guys got there

[annabanana]

96. Then Zubaida stopped talking

[annabanana]

97. I NEED SOME HELP HERE.. I CAN'T TYPE FAST ENOUGH

[bdamomma]

98. anna take your time and thanks again.

[kentuck]

99. This is explosive testimony.

By the guy behind the curtain.

[bdamomma]

103. yea, let's hope cheney's head explodes.

[Solly Mack]

100. Shoe Toss

[TheCoxwain]

101. Bush implicated .... he told half truth!!!

[annabanana]

102. THREAD NUMBER 3 HERE

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5645936

[gkhouston]

104. Wow, Soufan did indeed just blow the "torture worked" claims out of the water.

OLC claimed they got info from Zubaydah using EIT that Soufan says he got with his team following the Army manual. Soufan comes across as being utterly credible.

[Graybeard]

105. Results of torture were exact opposite of what Cheney claims.

FBI agent Ali Soufan testimony.

[spanone]

106. lindsey graham thinks torture is fine cause we're at war....so did the japanese, lindsey

[Voice for Peace]

107. agh he is so smug

[L. Coyote]

109. The video is available on C-SPAN. URL is now HERE:

The video is available on C-SPAN. URL is now HERE:
http://c-span.org/Watch/Media/2009/05/13/HP/R/18525/Subcmte+Questions+Lawyers+Who+Approved+Harsh+Methods.aspx

[spanone]

112. what is the point of these hearings? can they prosecute? recommend? subpoena?

do they have more hearings?

[L. Coyote]

114. What is the point of any hearing? Same here. Oversight of the Executive branch and write laws.

They can refer to DoJ for prosecution, subpoena as necessary.

[L. Coyote]

113. Graham keeps talking over the witnesses when they say something he does not want to hear.