** HEARING Senate Judiciary - Lawyers Who Approved TORTURE ***#3

[annabanana]

CSpan link: http://www.c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN3_wm.aspx
Senate link: http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/hearing.cfm?id=384...

Thread #1:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5645200&mesg_id=5645200

Thread #2: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5645531&mesg_id=5645531

[kentuck]

1. Graham says, "There's only two of us, if you want to continue..."

to Senator Whitehouse.

[bobthedrummer]

2. K&R-thanks! Graham still spinning that torture yielded results

[dgibby]

31. That's because he's up to his ass in alligators and now he's

trying to justify his complicity in a program that, as a military JAG officer, he KNEW was illegal. Put him in the dock at the Hague with the rest of the was criminals.

[annabanana]

3. Graham had better not poundthis guy

[bdamomma]

7. I am not able to watch this, and this guy sounds very credible.

with his answers.

[Solly Mack]

4. K&R Tossing more shoes

[annabanana]

5. I think there is information out there that EIT HAVE resulted in good info

[gkhouston]

10. Yeah, Lindsey, where is it? Soufan's just called bullshit on that claim in a specific instance. nt

[bobthedrummer]

6. School of the Americas Manuals Index (from SOA Watch)

http://www.soaw.org/article.php?id=98

[bdamomma]

14. he is always involved isn't he??

"In March 1992, then-Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney received an investigative report on "Improper Material in Spanish-Language Intelligence Training Manuals." Classified SECRET, the report noted that five of the seven manuals "contained language and statements in violation of legal, regulatory or policy prohibitions" and recommended they be recalled. The memo is stamped: "SECDEF HAS SEEN."


from the School of Americas Manual.

[bobthedrummer]

18. Yep

[annabanana]

8. He is trying to teach sofan about Geneva convention

[Solly Mack]

9. I'd like to smack everyone who votes to put Graham in office

[annabanana]

11. The Geneva Convention is NOT a good fit for this conflict..."unlike any war

we've ever had"

[bdamomma]

22. Graham said this?

so they are throwing out laws which we used to observe and adhere to away? God, I hate these people.

[kentuck]

12. K & R !

to the greatest page.

[Solly Mack]

13. So Graham enjoys witnessing interrogations

[Solly Mack]

17. WOW. Graham just dropped a big ole quarter on other countries

They ALL abuse detainees...so it's OK for us to do it too...is Graham's argument.

I'd say dropped a dime but the economy being what it is...

[annabanana]

15. Every other nation except us consider Al Qaida as a police action

[annabanana]

16. ergo no common article 3

[spanone]

19. lindsey thinks torture is ok cause 'we're at war'...so did the japanese in ww2 lindsey

[sinkingfeeling]

59. Somebody should ask him when the 'war' vote was. The Constitution says that only the Congress can

declare war. Without that vote, we're not a country 'at war'.

[annabanana]

20. ah think wurr at war

[kentuck]

21. Where did the other Democrats go??

They left Senator Whitehouse alone.

[bdamomma]

26. any votes going on?

but Sheldon probably could handle the hearing on his own!!

[Solly Mack]

23. Everyone does realize that Graham admitted to viewing detainee interrogations right?

[Blaze Diem]

24. Graham : What an ass! I have to mute that lying, condescending p.o.s.

Bush, Graham, & Cheney all in the same bed, fondling each other under the covers.
Ugly human beings.

[bdamomma]

29. don't you wish they try those enhanced techniques on those who support it?

up is down to them, they have no consideration for laws or policies.

[annabanana]

25. Whitehouse : division was between the experience and inexperience

more than FBI vs CIA (soufan)

[annabanana]

27. Soufan saying the detainees had to be outsmarted, not out muscled

[bdamomma]

32. well doesn' t that statement tell all, the bush regime just bullied and killed people.

they never used diplomacy, all that PNAC crap they pushed.

[TheCoxwain]

28. Nice Catch .. where the fuck did PRIVATE contractors get involved in interrogations

[Graybeard]

35. Once again "private contractors" working outside the law.

We keep turning over these rocks only to find them scurrying to avoid the light.

[TheCoxwain]

I remember cheney having invested in private jails .. wonder if has an 'investment' here as well.

just sayin.

[annabanana]

30. Durbin up

[Hepburn]

33. Great demeanor on Durbin....

...just moving right along.

[annabanana]

34. When Congress was breifed.. needs chronologies..

Zelikow "doesn't know" They're trying to piece it together now... "It could be after the fact"

[annabanana]

36. Durbin has been very very very frustrated by not being able

to tell what they know re: classified info

[annabanana]

37. Zelikow re closing down Gitmo - good idea

[annabanana]

38. Who is arguing to maintain it (Bush & Obama BOTH wanted it closed)

[annabanana]

39. Gitmo as symbol....

[annabanana]

40. Durbin: "Supermax prisons are up to the job". .

countering the fear that you might run into Kahlid Sheik Muhammed at the local Piggly-Wiggly

[annabanana]

41. Graham re recidivism rate post-Gitmo. . Zelikow says "dozens"

[Hepburn]

45. Oh, and the bullshit comment from Graham:

How would you feel if your son or daughter was killed by one of them?

:puke:

[napi21]

42. It's about damn time sombody said "We already house some

very dangerous criminals in our supermax facilities"! I've said that all along! Some of the criminals we already have are far worse than those in Gitmo!

[napi21]

106. I undrstand the FEAR that existed, and how much that fear influenced

what the admin did. The BIG thing Graham is ignoring is that those lawyers who issued the opinion that those tenicques were not torture KNEW OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN they were wrong! That's a phrase used in almost every legal case, and he;s ignoring it!

[sabra]

43. Zelikow is actually hitting back at Graham's question pretty well...

[annabanana]

44. WHAT IF IT WERE YOUR SON OR DAUGHTER??

[annabanana]

46. Graham is a horse's ass

[TheCoxwain]

47. What a joke this guy Graham is!!!

[Hepburn]

48. Has that POS Graham ever reproduced?

What a horse's ass.

:eyes:

[TheCoxwain]

50. when all logical arguments fail ....go for the emotional reaction !!

Fucking asshole

[Solly Mack]

49. Turner and Graham were birthed from the same pile of shit

[Graybeard]

60. They are like a tag-team patting each other on the fannies.

Graham gushing, "Oh, that is exactly right." to point made by Turner. Yuck!!

[annabanana]

51. Whoever said Turner was Federalist Society.. I think you're right.

[Solly Mack]

52. Torturing people is treating them better?

[Solly Mack]

55. LIAR! Waterboarding has always been torture

[bobthedrummer]

53. What about all the people that were innocent of any connections that were systemically tortured?

It's like they were used in a torture learning and teaching program, because they were on someone's "list"-and the desire for vengeance spiraled

[annabanana]

54. Bottom line: Is it a WAR or ISN"T it?

[sinkingfeeling]

63. No war. Never was a legal 'Declaration of War' from Congress.

[annabanana]

56. In 2002, it wasn't clear if waterboarding was torture or not

[TheCoxwain]

61. Republicans are REALLY beginning to feel the heat on this issue ..

[Solly Mack]

57. Graham is a collaborator in torture and the cover-up.

[C_U_L8R]

64. Oh Sargeant at Arms !

Pick up on aisle 12

[annabanana]

58. Graham is muddying the waters here... snake in the grass...

[annabanana]

62. Whitehouse firing on all cylinders now...

"Lawyers not wanting any peer-review"

[Hepburn]

66. OMG....that chart of the legal opinion...

...I am loving this.

There is NO way that waterboarding is or was anything but TORTURE!

Go, Whitehouse, go!!!!! :applause:

[annabanana]

65. Whitehouse asking Luban: "the Lee decision" waterboarding=torture

Waterboarding is torture. It is ALWAYS torture..

Mukasey claimed it wasn't relevant because it was under civil rights act..

[Hepburn]

69. What total horseshit that torture becomes something less than torture...

...in a different setting.

GMAFB....:eyes:

[kentuck]

67. A question?

Why was Graham the only Republican at the hearing? Do they think that if they ignore it, it will go away??

[annabanana]

70. He's the acting, ranking member.. he has to be there, I think

[Hepburn]

74. I think you are correct...

...maybe the hearing could not go out at all if he was not there...and it would really look like what it really is: That the Pubbies are covering for the Bush War Criminal cabal.

JMHO

[Hepburn]

72. IMO....

...they sent what they thought to be a "point man."

[annabanana]

68. It is impossible for Congress, BY STATUTE to override the Constitution..

"all roads lead to Rome"

[bobthedrummer]

71. "Torture at Abu Ghraib Followed CIA's Manual" by Alfred W. McCoy

(May 14, 2004 Common Dreams repost of Boston Globe article)
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0514-05.htm

[annabanana]

73. "Would it be torture to put a spider in a cell with someone who was afraid of spiders?

[annabanana]

75. It would if he believed the spider was deadly

[kentuck]

82. It would be torture..

But to a less degree than waterboarding and hanging from the walls..There are different degrees of torture.

[Solly Mack]

76. Graham's argument is now that if you championed torture that doesn't

make you a bad person.

And if you're not a bad person then you can't be guilty of enabling a crime.

[annabanana]

80. pretty much

[Hepburn]

81. What a POS....

...I wish to Graham would put a cork in it.

Seems to me that maybe he is a bit too defensive?

Maybe the POS is just a might guilty.

[annabanana]

77. someone punch Graham in the face now please

[babylonsister]

79. No kidding. What a putz. nt

[Graybeard]

85. Graham is interrupting every answer.

He will not allow witnesses to make their points.

[babylonsister]

95. He must be real proud of himself for trying to justify this. His

soul must be empty.

[dmr]

78. Graham is such an ass n/t

[annabanana]

83. Whitehouse should tell Graham to stop badgering the witness

[bobthedrummer]

86. yep

[kentuck]

84. "He broke in 35 seconds.."

Then they waterboarded him 82 more times??

[Hepburn]

91. That did give me pause....

...why the hell if the man broke, would there be any further reason to torture him?

:shrug:

[kentuck]

97. Right!

If they broke him in 35 seconds, why would they need to torture him 82 more times??

[sabra]

87. Graham is trying (and some what succeeding) in making the hearing a joke :-(

[Solly Mack]

88. Graham admitted to witnessing interrogations of "terrorist" suspects

and is now badgering the people who find torture to be wrong.

Graham also admitted that what he witnessed did NOT follow Article 3. Which makes Graham a witness to a crime...and he did nothing about it.

[sabra]

92. Graham: people have been torturing for 500 years and it works

:crazy:

[annabanana]

89. Graham is propping Cheney up against Soufan's eyewitness testimony

[annabanana]

90. that is INFURIATING

[TheCoxwain]

94. I got so enraged .. I turned it off...

[Solly Mack]

93. Graham supports and defends torture so of course he would support a president

breaking the law

[annabanana]

96. Whitehouse closing with statement by Matthew Alexander.

A scathing disavowal of torture for both pragmatic and moral reasons

[Graybeard]

100. "We can use intellect and ingenuity" rather than torture.

Two things sorely lacking in the Bush/Cheney administration.

[annabanana]

98. One thing I learned..GRAHAM LIKES TO WATCH

[Solly Mack]

101. Yep! He admitted it

[Solly Mack]

99. Graham just can't stop lying

[Solly Mack]

102. There's that bullshit argument again

[TheCoxwain]

104. Whatever it is .. I stopped watching ....

[kentuck]

105. Incarceration is the same as torture?

BS.

[Solly Mack]

112. He brought up Roosevelt again as an excuse for torture

[Solly Mack]

108. If you torture detainees you aren't a war criminal...you were just afraid

If you rob that bank you aren't a bank robber, you're just broke and afraid

[merh]

124. the big bad repukes, they kept us safe, they was so afraid - there

was no bravery or honor to their actions - they became bullies cause they was scared.

I have never heard of "fear" being used as a defense to a crime. The guy across the street scared me so I slammed him with a baseball bat.

:argh:

what they did in our name is evil and now we know that fear propelled them. :cry:

[Subdivisions]

103. Graham ends by putting it back on Pelosi. n/t

[TheCoxwain]

109. I hope a crazy pitbill grabs Grahams Balls

[Hepburn]

116. Yeah, right.... Pelosi a member of the minority party at that time...

...and not the majority with the WH is responsible.

Interesting argument from Graham ~~ if torture is OK, why is Lindsay "blaming" Pelosi for it being done, like if she approved, then it is a bad thing? If it is so great when Pubbies support and impliment it ~~ as he seems to say ~~ should he not be congratulating her for her part in keeping America safe by allegedly supporting and approving of torture?

:eyes:

Lindsay Graham = fucking idiot.

[sabra]

107. please make this stop!

[Subdivisions]

111. Now that the chairman has gone, there seems to be no time limit. n/t

[Daphne08]

117. Senator Whitehouse should not have trusted him by leaving

him with the gavel.

[Subdivisions]

110. RAW DESPERATION! n/t

[whyzayker]

122. So that's it?!

Another Bullwinkle moment! (This time for SURE!!!)

I can't fucking stand it.

[bushmeister0]

113. My God, this guy is a JAG?

[kentuck]

114. Torture is illegal. Period.

No matter how much Graham goes on yapping.

[tridim]

115. Graham would have made a great Nazi

[Solly Mack]

120. Indeed he would have

[Hepburn]

123. Is there some opinion that the POS is not a Nazi?

:shrug:

If it quacks likea Nazi....

[Solly Mack]

125. True

[bdamomma]

126. he certainly looks like one, put a khaki uniform on him!

[TheCoxwain]

118. Hecklers in action ..glad that they held out until the meeting was over

[Subdivisions]

119. Great job, annabanana, L. Coyote, et. al. Thanks! n/t

[annabanana]

121. Graham filibustering the end of this meeting... UNPLUG THE MIC

[bdamomma]

127. thanks anna and L coyote.

and of course everybody else.

[cpompilo]

128. Graham was talking out of both sides of his mouth.

One minute torture is bad, the next minute torure is good. And his comment that "this war will go on forever" is a republicons wet dream. I thought he was shifty and disgusting. And why does no one mention the deaths that happened under "enhanced interrogation" techniques? Huh?

[Clio the Leo]

129. Well, now we know where the flight Mr. Whitehouse had to catch was going...

... (he's on Countdown in NYC.)