"There Are Children Starving in Africa"....

[Bluerthanblue]

Pictures speak in ways that words cannot.



A tiny girl crawls towards a food camp while a vulture waits to feast on her body.

This photo was taken by Kevin Carter in Sudan in 1994. He won a Pulitzer prize for it. He killed himself not long after.

Photo Journalists do what they do, precisely because of the impact that photographs have on us.



I sincerely believe that the photos which Obama decided not to release today NEED to be released. I can also understand why releasing them at this time with our troops trying to exit Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan in such fragile shape- would place soldiers and civilians in greater danger.

There are people high up in government who need to be held accountable. But it's the little people on the ground who stand to pay the price.

Even if you are furious about the photos not being released right now- please don't dismiss the reality that their release is very likely going to make things much more dangerous for our men and women in the Middle East.

thanks.

[grantcart]

1. k and r

even though I leave the release of the photo's to Obama's judgement your OP is powerful and articulate.

You also allow that they may be incidiary to cost someone their life, a sobering thought.

[Bluerthanblue]

4. I too am trusting that

Pres. Obama knows what is best in this situation. If he's wrong, he erring on the side of saving lives.
Thanks for your kind words.

:hi:

[ejpoeta]

2. omg!! i didn't even realize that was a PERSON at first! how sickening!

[Bluerthanblue]

3. can you imagine how the photographer must have felt

taking that picture.

I read that he sat under a tree, weeping and smoking cigarettes non-stop.

And she was only one of how many??? they still starve- suffer, die.

Pictures speak to us differently than words. It's said that when you take someones picture you capture a piece of their soul. Maybe that's why pictures affect us so much.

thanks for your comment.

[backtoblue]

5. What an awful sight

Photos truly hold a thousand words and this one speaks furiously and inhumanely. How can this be happening to our children around the world?

[mikelgb]

8. there is not enough money, we have to spend billions on war

why feed when you can kill?

[Bluerthanblue]

14. "Bread not Bombs"

doesn't really sink in to most people's minds. I've been an advocate of this since the '70's.
We have the means to end starvation in this world. We've had it for years.

The sad reality is, we don't have the desire or the drive.
;(

[backtoblue]

15. The sad truth...

:cry: :grouphug:

[jasmeel]

6. WOW! Just awful awful...

[FourScore]

7. This is one of the most powerful posts I've seen here on DU.

I am overwhelmed by the emotion that photo invokes. And the story of the photographer.

You are right, the toture photos must be released.

[gbate]

9. I would not have left a starving child die while taking their picture.

But that's just me.

[Lorien]

11. Who said that he left her to die?

He may have picked her up to carry her to the camp after taking the photo.

[gbate]

31. I hope so.

[RedCappedBandit]

18. You would've taken the thousands of children home with you?

Ridiculous statements such as yours are precisely why the journalist is now dead. Good job.

[gbate]

30. Not that I need to say this, but this guy's suicide probably had nothing to do with others' opinions

of him and what he did or did not do.

Thousands of children? Well, no, but if there is one child that could have been helped, that child should have been helped.

Frankly, if this photographer was only out to prove a point without doing anything to help, then he needs to be held accountable.

Can you imagine witnessing such devastation and not doing anything?

[Arugula Latte]

32. I imagine the reason he was photographing this girl was precisely to call attention

to what was going on so more people would be moved to help or call on their governments to help.

[Bluerthanblue]

38. hate to say this, but he didn't just pick her up-

no one knows what happened to her.

I understand the feelings you express. The photo still makes me weep- still aches my heart- still makes me want to shout and scream and explode at the petty- asshole-ry that we waste our time arguing about and spend precious energy over.

I can imagine witnessing the devastation. I can also imagine being so overwhelmed by the suffering that exists in the world that I cannot bear living.

Photo journalism is one of those careers that sometimes have the power to make incredible changes in the lives of many. It also has risk of destroying the life of the 'messenger'.

Thank you for caring - please don't let the discomfort and anguish that you feel when seeing the sad plight of this sweet little child cause you to become hardened, or to avoid future witnesses to what life is like for so many outside our doors. The world needs more people who are willing to feel, and face the painful truths that living with our eyes wide open brings. Only then can we hope to make any real changes-

(sorry for the rant- I think I need a major time out)

peace~
:grouphug:

[Raster]

10. Bullshit! Things are already dangerous for American military in the middle East.

Who are we really trying to protect: the American serviceman or servicewoman, or the American Military Industrial Complex? It should be more than apparent that the instigators of THIS ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL WAR didn't give squat for the safety of the men and women on the front lines. Must I list the grievances: inadequate preparation, inadequate equipment, inadequate infrastructure. The list goes on and on. No, the MIC doesn't want the photos released because it would make it harder to continue to plunder and pillage the Treasury of the United States. Something tells me Joe and Jane America aren't going to be waving American flags when they see pictures of children being horribly abused in their name.

Not In My Name!:kick:Investigate and Prosecute War Criminals!

[Bluerthanblue]

13. wow... where to start? Joe and Jane America should have

put their flags away long ago, and not because of the photo's that will be released- But if the photos are the only thing that motivates them to smarten up, then you can't deny that those photos will have a very strong impact on the people who live in the middle east. People our soldiers are stuck living amongst, and who stand to be hurt as they are on the front lines.

It doesn't matter that the military complex doesn't care about the welfare of our men and women. I agree with you on that- But I DO believe Obama DOES care. That he understands the effects that visual images have on people who already have more than enough reasons to be angry at us can have.

You might not care, but I believe he does. And while I want the photos made public, and the shame of our nations actions exposed for all Americans to face- I can't in all good conscience NOT care about the very real potential that innocent men and women could be harmed or killed if the poto's were to come out at this present time.

We can begin investigations and prosecutions regardless of when the photo's are released. Nothings really changed.

[Raster]

16. I believe Obama does care....however, there is already a multitude of anger.

These photos can't do any more to fuel the anger aimed at the United States. Their suppression, however, can do far much more to fuel anger and resentment against the US and American service personnel. And make no mistake: there are no innocent, at least not in our camp. We have allowed madmen to subvert the rule of law and reign down their version of supposed vigilantism. Most of the world NEVER believed that Saddam and Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Most of the world NEVER believed that Saddam and Iraq had ties to Al Queda. And most of the world NEVER believed cheney*/bush*'s intentions were honorable. Witness the largest demonstrations around the world were to protest the United States actions in Iraq. No, my friend. The damage has been done. Now what we need to do is damage control and healing. That begins with owning up to the atrocities committed in all of our names. That means acknowledging to the world the horrendous mistakes were made. That means NOT suppressing evidence of War Crimes. President Obama's election has been a major step in the right direction to show the world that we are not a maverick nation and the world's mightiest terrorist. And now it is time to take the next step to admit, investigate and prosecute. The world waits to see if the United States truly has the courage to face our demons and emerge better for confronting the ugliness. Now is not the time to pretend we have the American serviceman or woman's best interests at heart. If we truly had their best interests at heart, we would not ask them to continue to fight an ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL war.

And please, don't ever insinuate again that I don't care again. You do not know my situation nor condition. You have no idea who I am. I care deeply for the welfare and safety of American men and women in harm's way. I also care deeply about the wounded soul of this country.

[Bluerthanblue]

24. you say that there are no innocent in out camp-

and you claim to have some kind of prescient knowledge that the release of the photographs showing American servicemen torturing vulnerable prisoners will not touch off renewed violence against the troops living and attempting to follow orders which do NOT include "enhanced interrogation techniques" in Iraq and Afghanistan.???

I can't follow you. I don't deny that there were more than just a few 'bad apples' who committed atrocities with the approval and sometimes instructions of our former government. But I also believe- no, I KNOW there are men and women in the service who are only there because they took a vow, and who have not participated in torture. They are there because we sent them there, not because they 'want' to be there.

I'll agree to not insinuate that you don't care when you stop insinuating that those of us who are not quick to jump from Obama's decision to not release the photographs to the conclusion that we AND he- don't desire to have the war crimes prosecuted. I want the crimes fully exposed, and fully investigated. I'm neither ignorant of what has been done, or ambivalent about it. Right down to the decision to use military means against Afghanistan in the first place. If you look at my history here, you'll see I've never advocated violence as an answer to anything.-

I'm not pretending to have anyone's 'best interest' at heart. I care passionately about the lives of people from all corners of the world- even ones that few other people count among their vision of 'human'.

You've taken the statement Obama made about the photographs to mean MUCH more than it is. You've seen this as a complete closure of any potential prosecution of the war crimes we are guilty of. That is where you and I part company completely.

peace~

[Raster]

29. Allow me to clarify. In no way am I insinuating that all the servicemen and women

are to blame for the atrocities. THEY ARE NOT! We are. You and I. We are to blame because we allowed madmen and madwoman to subvert the rule of law and wreak destruction and havoc upon an innocent people. The men and women of the military are, for the most part, just doing their jobs, trying to get through another day without getting themselves blown to pieces.

While there is the remote possibility that release of the photos would touch off additional violence, I can't see how. Iraq and the American presence is already an armed camp on high alert. I believe that by "coming clean" completely, we can demonstrate our good faith and a willingness to abandon the insanity that cheney*/bush* thrust upon all of us.

I do not *necessarily* see Obama's current decision as a complete closure to prosecution, but I do believe we must all continue to assert that our country do the right thing and investigate and prosecute.

[Bluerthanblue]

36. thank you for clarifying. I believe

we are in more agreement than we are in conflict.

I need to apologize for my tone (attitude). I'm letting my frustration at some individuals overflow into converstations with everyone. That isn't fair to you, and I'm sorry.

Thanks for having the patience to explain your position.

I'm glad to join you in the effort to see that our country is held accountable- and that investigations and procecutions happen.
Not in some far away future time, but in the forseeable future.


peace~

[Raster]

40. Thank you! We truly are more in agreement than we differ.

And thank you for actively engaging in civil discourse. That is, at time, a rare commodity around here.

It's been a pleasure. I look forward to conversing with you again.

Go in peace.

[marshall]

12. I wonder if there was a Pulitzer prize winner among the suppressed photos?

Maybe the photographer will fight to have them released. Or perhaps they will "accidentally" appear on some innocuous internet site.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

17. So... umm... what have you done for the starving children of Africa recently?

Or are you just trying to guilt-trip people?

[Bluerthanblue]

19. I'm not going to give you a list- this isn't about me- did

you read the post or just look at the picture.??

This isn't about guilt tripping anyone. Maybe I didn't say it clearly enough.

PICTURES speak to people in ways that words cannot-

You clearly had a visceral reaction to this photo. Yet it shouldn't be any surprise to you that children, adults, elderly people are dying in Africa. Somehow the stark reality of this photo brings it home in a way that words just cannot.

Do you see what I'm saying now?


:hi:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. I'm well aware of the suffering in Africa.

Which is why me and my family pool money each year to buy between ten and fifteen goats for struggling families in Africa. (And at this point I must do a shameless plug for heifer.org, which purchases livestock for families in Africa.)

And no, you can't actually give me a list of what you've done because you've done nothing. So please spare me the hand-wringing.

[backtoblue]

23. we are on the same side

Please don't jump on someone who was merely trying to get childhood famine and starvation much-needed attention.

[Bluerthanblue]

27. thanks- for your

words, and for your compassion.

These are our children too.

:grouphug:

[backtoblue]

34. You're right -These are our children..

We are not supposed to let them starve. They are supposed to be playing and laughing. The world is not right. :grouphug:

[Bluerthanblue]

25. how wrong you are- I've been involved in HPI for years- traveled

down to Overlook Farm in Mass with groups of kids, introducing them to the program many times.

That's only one of many programs I support and am involved with- but as I said this ISN'T about me, OR you- neither one of us have put everything we have into the effort to end the suffering that exists in Africa- or anywhere else in this world.

You completely miss the point of the OP- and your anger is mis-placed.

But sounding off on an internet board and assuming you know more than you do is more productive.

:shrug:

BTW- HPI operates in many places around the world- not just in Africa. And it is one of many organizations. Care, Feed the Children, Unicef are some other very good ones. There are also any number of much smaller but very effective groups doing some pretty amazing things to help- If you'd like to know more, I can put you in touch with some.

I'm glad you're involved with Heifer Project. It's a great group. Please try not to assume that you are the only one who cares or who is involved with trying to make a difference in the lives of others. Many of us are involved in a wide variety of progressive, life-giving organizations.

peace~

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

46. I would greatly appreciate the contact info.

But please leave me out of your political grandstanding.

[backtoblue]

21. This is the forum and medium to which we can share and remind others of the awful truth

If people do not stare famine in the face (or pic in this case) it goes suppressed. Raising awareness and getting people to THINK about the horrible truths that are happening is a step towards doing something. Not everyone can hop on a plane or donate money, but there are messengers that can raise awareness.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

22. Five bucks goes a long way in Africa.

You don't have five bucks?

[Bluerthanblue]

26. what makes you think you are the only one who is doing anything?

Do you need applause or something?

This isn't about YOU!!!- and if you want to make a post about the very worthwhile contributions that Heifer Project is involved with then by all means DO IT!

I'm with you on that. Why must you look for ways to either puff yourself up, or point at others saying "you suck" ???

Put the anger where it belongs PLEASE. We're here, and discussing this because we DO care- because we ARE involved and want to get others involved.

DU seems to spawn such angry ugly replies these days.

PEACE~ may you be filled with it, may you spread it. May we all be kinder to each other.

:grouphug:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

45. The purpose of this thread...

...was to make political points about the lack of release of the torture photos using actual photos of children dying in Africa which leads me to ask, quite legitimately, what the OP is doing, exactly, about the poverty exposed in the photos he was using. It's a fairly simple question.

[LooseWilly]

28. I'm still not buying the story that release of new pictures will make the region less safe.

After all, the people in the photos live in the region... assuming they didn't die in custody. They live there. They can, and probably have, told their stories. The photos that are already out are graphic enough to lend credence to the stories of anyone who the US has detained... anywhere in the world really. The public in the Middle East is, I would bet, already agitated over US torture. I don't believe releasing more photos, per court order, will agitate those publics anymore.

I just don't believe it.
If, for example, I know Ali... and Mustafa says that, when he was gone for a year back in '04, he was tortured... I already believe him. I'm already pissed. Seeing more photos like the ones before makes no difference. But having the Americans say that the guys that tortured, and even worse, the guys who told the guys who tortured that they could torture them... to say that it's just too much trouble to try to hold them accountable... that would piss me off.

I'm actually a little surprised at how many people are willing to just accept that the public in the Middle East will be agitated by releasing these photos. I can only guess that, because it would agitate them, they presume it would agitate the public over there even more. I suspect the opposite... I suspect that it is the American public that will become agitated with the release... because it is the American public that doesn't really, in their bones, believe that the US really really tortures... more photos are liable to be like a continuing assault on the deeply ingrained "we're the good guys" self-image of Americans...
That image just isn't that deep in the rest of the world... especially after the last 8 years. A little admission of truth can only improve our image abroad... as far as I can tell.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Riiiight. The stupid Ay-rabs will be mollified if we cover up the crimes.

God forbid, we should show them that we're serious about uncovering the crimes and punishing the perpetrators because that would upset them.

[Bluerthanblue]

37. who is talking about covering up the crimes other than you?

And I'm ALL FOR exposing the depth of depravity that we have sunk to as a nation. It's much bigger than those 44 photos are going to reveal. If your hopes of justice hinge on the immediate release of those pictures, then you don't have much to really go on. Usually, when prosecuting crimes one tries to gather together all the vital information and facts they can, and then they press charges. There is information coming out as we waste our time here on DU- information that is going to do more towards prosecution of those who engineered and enabled the torture and murder of Iraqi citizens than those 44 photos.

Why is your perspective so narrow and one dimensional?

A fire that's burning isn't going to simply go out because we don't throw gasoline on it. The anger (justified) that the people of the Middle East have towards us isn't going to fade because the pictures aren't immediately released- but it's pretty likely that it would flare up by pouring flammable liquids onto it.

This isn't over- not by a LONG shot.

Might be good to keep that in mind.

peace~

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. How long do they have to wait?

In the meantime, the troops remain in Iraq, still destroying that country. In the meantime, more troops are going to Afghanistan to kill more people and making "incursions" into Pakistan to kill people.

Yet, you and the other apologists assure us that, despite evidence to the contrary, our government is, someday, sometime, when it's safe, going to act. You, apparently, cling to the belief that the government is going to act against it's own interests. That politicians, long known for their impeccable honesty, are going to indict and try themselves.

They aren't about to act unless we keep the heat on their sorry asses. If their allowed to obstruct, sweep evidence under the rug, hide behind "protect the troops", the poor men, women, and children who were brutalized and/or killed will be reduced to mere statistics and left to rot.

Why in the hell shouldn't the people who are suffering at our hands be pissed off? And, what makes you think that obviously withholding evidence will make them less pissed off?

I'm of the belief, that even Arabs can tell the difference between an attempt to bring people to justice and issuing get-out-of-jail-free cards to the thugs who actually did torture and covering up evidence of same.

[Bluerthanblue]

41. I don't know- I don't want to wait

any more than you do- but I'm not the one in charge, and it's a damn good thing.

call me any name you like- apologist- asshole- whatever you like but don't try and shove me into some kind of 'group-think'- i don't fit into any category, you only lose credibility when you pretend to know who i am or what i think.

I you think that Obama is just another politician, that he's not releasing the photos because of some theory you have that he's involved, and only wants to cover his ass then good luck with any hope of prosecution. We are stuck with the system we have- it isn't going to be our 'keeping the heat on their sorry asses' that is going to bring about justice. And justice isn't going to bring back those who have been killed, or undo what was done. It won't even keep it from happening in the future. If only that were true.

I've NEVER said or implied that the Iraqi's or the Afghan's or anyone from the Middle East don't have a right to be more than angry at us. Quite the contrary- I don't see the "Arabs" as any less savvy or interested in justice than us- as a matter of fact some have shown much more character and courage than some of the US's big mouthed blow hards.

I've learned patience and to not give up easily, in large part because of my own impatience and desire to make things right NOW- I encourage you to step back, ask yourself what has really changed in the grand scheme of things with Obama's announcement that he wouldn't release the photos. Not the media spin- not the 'liz cheney claims victory' not the inflammatory rants by others- but what makes the possibility of investigating and prosecuting the bush cabal any less possible today than it was before Obama's statement?

:shrug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. I disagree.

Respectfully.

In my, rather long, experience change happens only because the people keep the pressure on the politicians who, with few, very few, exceptions can be trusted to do the right thing only if it's in their own interest. i.e. being popular enough to win elections.

It's the troublemakers and naysayers who facilitate change. Politicians, as a breed, are in love with the status quo. The Civil Rights bill didn't come to be because of idealistic politicians. The draft wasn't ended because politicians thought it was a good idea. They were pushed, prodded, threatened, insulted, embarrassed, and finally forced to act because of unpopular pressure.

I've learned impatience with the status quo that says wait until the right moment and excuses atrocities with inaction and excuses. I believe that settling for less, accepting the excuses, is akin to be grateful for being fed a teaspoon of arsenic rather than a tablespoon.

The system is what we're stuck with as long as we accept it and it's corruption. As long as we rely on "not as bad" politicians and "trust" them, we'll remain stuck with the system.

As to what's "changed in the grand scheme of things", Obama has demonstrated, again, that he's just another politician looking at the small picture of political expediency and short-term solutions that may be popular but ruinous.

[Bluerthanblue]

44. I can't

say you're wrong- I hope you are, but only time will tell.

Thank you for presenting your perspective and why you hold it in the way you have.

I respect your opinion.

peace~
blu

[baldguy]

43. The release of the first pics from abu Ghraib led to the uprising in & destruction of Fallujah.

[Name removed]

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