Col Wilkerson Drops A BOMBSHELL-Bushco Priority For Intell NOT Aimed At Protecting American People

[kpete]

*********** Let’s say this slowly: the Bush administration wanted to use 9/11 as a pretext to invade Iraq, even though Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. So it tortured people to make them confess to the nonexistent link.

There’s a word for this: it’s evil.

.........................

On Wednesday, Colin Powell's former chief of staff, Col. Lawrence Wilkerson dropped a bombshell:

*****what I have learned is that as the administration authorized harsh interrogation in April and May of 2002 -- well before the Justice Department had rendered any legal opinion -- its principal priority for intelligence was not aimed at pre-empting another terrorist attack on the U.S. but discovering a smoking gun linking Iraq and al-Qa'ida.

***** So furious was this effort that on one particular detainee, even when the interrogation team had reported to Cheney's office that their detainee "was compliant" (meaning the team recommended no more torture), the VP's office ordered them to continue the enhanced methods. The detainee had not revealed any al-Qa'ida-Baghdad contacts yet. This ceased only after Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, under waterboarding in Egypt, "revealed" such contacts. Of course later we learned that al-Libi revealed these contacts only to get the torture to stop.

There in fact were no such contacts. (Incidentally, al-Libi just "committed suicide" in Libya. Interestingly, several U.S. lawyers working with tortured detainees were attempting to get the Libyan government to allow them to interview al-Libi....)

....................

The "smoking gun" of the Iraq-Torture Scandal will be proof that the CIA took Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi away from the FBI in February 2002 and sent him to Egypt for one specific reason: to use torture to extract a false confession of Iraq-Al Qaeda ties.

Lawrence Wilkerson's account takes us much closer to finding that "smoking gun."

http://www.democrats.com/lawrence-wilkerson-drops-an-iraq-torture-bombshell
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2009/05/the_truth_about/

[kentuck]

1. This drip, drip, drip is turning into a gusher.

Facts are coming out fast and furious, such as the one in a post below about General Myers and the Geneva Convention.

[RufusTFirefly]

9. I don't understand. How exactly does this relate to Carrie Prejean?

:shrug:



Why am I surrounded by frickin' idiots?

[OneGrassRoot]

12. I love you...

My Depends moment of the day, both the subject line and your sig.

:)

[OneGrassRoot]

14. (sorry...this was in response to OP) It was really about ....

inflaming tensions and hatred in the ME even more.

Do we REALLY believe they needed confessions to justify ANYTHING?

Why not just lie or plant evidence? Neither of which was/is beyond them, or beyond many in power.

IMHO, they NEVER had America's interests at heart; not the nation, not the citizens. Halliburton et al, sure.

It served their purpose to keep citizens in fear. And, it served their purposes to make sure we had enemies.

They succeeded at both.

Keeping America safe? EPIC FAIL. Criminally epic fail.

[bjobotts]

36. I've said this for years.Most knew it,Never about protecting American lives

[bjobotts]

37. They tortured furiously to justify Bush's war and invasion..trying to connect 9/11 to Sadam

[bjobotts]

38. Killing and torturing for political gain yet go unprosecuted.

[Grinchie]

40. Of course, when one realizes that Saddam Hussein was murdered over it..

He was the leader of a Sovereign nation after all, and all he did was rattle the rhetoric against the U.S. after 10 years of crushing economic sanctions, while the Oil for Food program ran rife with corruptions.

I think that's why I admire Hugo Chavez so much. He has the audacity of standing up to Bush, and the Bush Administration simply went ballistic. In that respect, I think Chavez is very brave, very foolhardy, and very very lucky that he has lots of friends to keep him from being murdered, deposed or overthrown.

It's not like the U.S. hasn't tried very hard to do this, but the U.S. had revealed it's cards and people are now aware of the Unconventional Warfare tactics used by the US to destabilize regimes. Hell, I think the U.S. Citizens are just now realizing that the very same tactics are being used on them at home!

Look out Evo Morales, the U.S. may be funding a "Freedom Fighter" death squad near you!

I recently heard that now that the U.S. is broke, its role will be Policeman of the world in order to pay off its debts. Our military will be hired out to the PTB to crush any opposition to wresting further control from the remaining group of sovereign nations. Makes perfect sense to me, since the weasels in the Government will do anything to remain in power.

[LooseWilly]

71. Uhh, you do realize how widespread this practice is, on the part of the US?

You do know how Saddam Hussein was provided with WMDs to attack Iran in the 80s, right? You do know that this was in response to the Iranian revolution in '79, right? Which was a delayed response to the US engineered coup in '53 to overthrow Mossadeqh and put the Shah back in power. you do know about that? And Hussein's invasion of Kuwait back in... '91... was largely about alleged Kuwaiti slant drilling into fields claimed by Iraq, oil fields that Iraq needed to work to pay back the US for all the WMDs they bought off the US to use on Iran in a failed attempt to conquer Iran.

You realize that every day that Cuba exists is a standing up to the US. And every day that Iran exists in its current form, it's a standing up to the US as well.And likewise with Venezuela. And other nations I'm sure as well...

[Usrename]

79. Obscure the truth by shifting the blame.

It is only an assumption that they wanted to implicate Saddam in order to justify an invasion.

It is just as likely that they wanted to implicate him in order to obscure who was really behind the 9/11 attacks.

[wildbilln864]

51. I read about some attempts to plant WMD's in Iraq....

a few years back. here's a link
:hi: I don't know if it was confirmed.

[Joe Chi Minh]

86. Then, there was the fun of having people tortured, don't forget...

[Cobalt-60]

56. oops, wrong button. But hang them all!

--

[snake in the grass]

91. As an opponent of the death penalty...

...I must wholeheartedly agree with you. If anyone deserves a slow and merciless death, it's these people.

I know full well that this is a contradiction to my personal beliefs, and I struggle with it all the time, but I can't help it. It's the only thing that comes close to justice.

[ControlledDemolition]

62. World peace! n/t

[livefreest]

30. Not fast enough for my taste. but do we know if someone in congress is

genuinely paying attention in order to know who they will call during an inquiry?

[Kablooie]

57. BUT ... no one will be held responsible ... period. NO ONE! ... That's amerika for you.

[John Q. Citizen]

2. It just proves the Chaney assertain that torture works when you want to produce

outcome oriented intelligence.

In this case the outcome sought was a pretext for armed aggression.

[IdaBriggs]

3. Well, duh. Who didn't know that in November of 2000?

Oh, yes: the folks who didn't actually research the candidates, what they wrote, and what their support staff had publicly said.

In other words, the mainstream media, and therefore, the majority of the American people.

:eyes:

[Arugula Latte]

13. But -- Gore was stiff and you want to have a beer with Bush!

What kind of research priorities do you have? Sheesh.

[aquart]

22. Exactly. How come we knew and they "didn't"?

Because I still don't understand how it was possible NOT to know.

[TahitiNut]

45. September 2000 - I posted a prediction in an ISP newsgroup that we'd be in a war in the M.E.

... before the end of 2001 if the Smirking Narcissist were to get in office. I even stated that there'd be an "event" of such magnitude that it'd be a foregone conclusion. I said that it'd be Iraq, Iran, or Afghanistan.

It. Was. Obvious.

It couldn't have been clearer.

:shrug:

[glitch]

50. With PNAC publishing their agenda on the web it wasn't much of a leap.

What was really weird was the refusal of ordinarily intelligent people to give it a look. They thought they were informed because they read the New York Times. And listened to Ralph "twiddledee and twiddledum" Nader.

At least the Bush Years disabused them of those conceits. Most of them. Ok, some of them. Well, my friends anyway.

[Echo In Light]

75. Yes. The mind boggles over how many did/do dismiss the PNAC out of hand as coincidental/irrelevant

[glitch]

89. Tony Blair called PNAC an Internet conspiracy theory!

He was half right, it was on the Internet, but they were very public about their agenda so technically PNAC wasn't a conspiracy. At least that aspect of it.

[wildbilln864]

54. What I'll never get over is how the media never mentioned one word....

of Bush's pappy Prescott's antics. Treason for dealing with the enemy. His company was seized wasn't it?
Also pappy shrub tried with others to over throw the U.S. government and thanks to the patriotism of general Smedley Butler they weren't able to then. Yet no news channel covered any of this that I'm aware ofduring Bush first or second election. :shrug:

[napi21]

4. I saw him on Rachel's show a few days ago. He's PI**ED!

Apparently there was some hot & heavy arguments within the admin when he & Powell were there and he's not hesitating to talk about them. Darth dissing Powell just agrivated he more!

[Hepburn]

5. Well, no wonder Darth Cheney is out on the talk circuit saying how...

...he kept us safe by torturing.

:grr:

[malaise]

10. Oh yes!!! Talking will make it work

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908#30711836

NOT

[KansDem]

6. So it was an "after the fact" mission?

Not to "protect" the American people, but to conjure up some "evidence," any evidence, to link what we all knew wasn't true at the time: That Saddam and alQaeda were connected.

So why the invasion? :shrug:





oil

[Hepburn]

7. Cuz Saddam was a bad man who tried to get Daddy Bush....

...who knows with the nuts that were in charge what the hell caused them to do the evil they did.

[Mister Ed]

64. A bad man who was sitting on 10.8% of the world's known oil reserves...

...in a location where U.S. military bases could be built to exert influence on the owners of another 60% of the world's oil.

[Dangerously Amused]

65. Oh, come on now.

Surely you're not implying that it's more than sheer COINCIDENCE that we had two oil men in the White House at the time. :sarcasm:

[zoff]

15. after-the-fact propaganda tour

[Politicalboi]

44. 9/11

Certainly we wouldn't get mad if we caught half the team.

[Wednesdays]

8. Wow, color me surprised

We were certain of this all along...the proof is coming out now.

K&R

[bdamomma]

16. the proof is coming out, but will action follow?

[sellitman]

23. Sad that your question even needs to asked.

Only would a President Dennis Kucinich be asking for action.

[Butch350]

31. Asking and getting action are two different things

...the same forces that are stopping Obama would stop Dennis Kucinich too. Take that to the bank.

Don't you get the nature of the game yet?

[bdamomma]

55. Dennis would have been a pit bull for protecting the rights of the American people

[Enthusiast]

72. Dennis was my choice.

But I imagine Dennis would have been another dead progressive if he didn't get with the program.

[FiveGoodMen]

29. Not if our current president can help it.

That's pretty much what he's said.

[flyarm]

43. absolutely what he said ..and those that listened knew that!! eom

[TheMachineWins]

11. Years later we, as a country, still haven't held them responsible, we just "debate" it

as if torture is even up for debate. Evidence only matters if law matters and law seems like something that only applies to us little people.

[bahrbearian]

69. Right On

[EC]

17. Was this at the hearings and under oath? ... n/t

[MagickMuffin]

18. If only Cheney had been a nose picker instead of a cherry picker

we wouldn't be discussing this.

Of course Cheney needed to invade Iraq, how else would Halliburton get their NO BID CONTRACTS to take over Iraq. After all while Cheney was the CEO he found ALL sorts of ways to get around the sanctions the US had imposed on Iraq. He even tried to get Clinton to invade back in '98.

I've said it once and I'll say it again about 9-11, Cheney MADE IT HAPPEN, Bush LET IT HAPPEN.

SHOCK AND AWE, YA'LL

[pansypoo53219]

19. but does the teevee news care they were punked?

so far, no.

[bamacrat]

20. That is definitely worthy of prosecutions.

Move past an ugly chapter with the waterboarding ok I guess. But when the waterboarding was used to create or coax false confession in order to justify an invasion of a soveriegn country that has resulted in over 5000 dead Americans and 1000000 dead Iraqis, that is not something to move past. That calls for an angry mob with torches.

[Recursion]

21. Torture is very effective at making people say what you want to hear

In fact, that's the only thing it's good for. It's pretty bad at getting facts.

[file83]

53. If your country's National Security depends on torture...

...then your intelligence community isn't doing their job right.

If your country's National Security depends on sweeping warrantless wire taps on free & innocent citizens...
...then your intelligence community isn't doing their job right.

But if those 2 actions were being done for reasons other than "National Security", let's say, for political reasons...
...then your National Security is already compromised by domestic enemies of the state and your intelligence community has failed their mission.

That is where we are today. Our National Security Agency has failed in their mission. Our Central Intelligence Agency has failed their mission. The Federal Bureau of Investigation has failed their nation.

Until those 3 clean up their acts and start doing their fucking jobs, our country will only continue this downward spiral.

[vixengrl]

67. Well said.

The Bush Administration keeps up their lie that these methods "kept us safe"--but why did them saying that always make us feel more insecure?

[midnight]

68. Bravo file83.

[brindis_desala]

80. Before he died George Keenan, the intellectual "force" behind our

national security complex regretted having ever created the CIA. Realized it was hemlock for a democracy.

[astroBspacedog]

61. Facts are Irrelevant, --

If you're a neo-con, ----- or even most Republicans aren't very keen on facts these days,

[florida08]

24. I don't recognize

America anymore. Anything goes and the bastard still gets on the boob tube to lie some more. I almost weep anymore at the sight of the flag I love.

[Mermaid7]

42. Neither do I. The crimes here in America keep becoming more horrific...

Today here in Florida, 4 teens, all 14 years of age, were arrested for raping a 13 year old with a broom handle and a hockey stick.

Last week a man threw a 3 month baby out on to the highway, who died.

I ask, what is happening to our country?

What the .... is happening.

Neighbors are losing their homes to foreclosure. Those w young children we saw riding their bicycles by our house.
Where are they going to go? And why are these houses now going to stand empty? What's the purpose in that?

Why are medical professionals being arrested for speaking their piece in Congress, about providing medical treatment for us all?

What the hell is happening to our country"

When is the madness going to stop?

And now we find our own government was sadistically torturing prisoners? And in order to cover to invade other countries and to kill their citizens and to kill our own soldiers, for their own profit?

What has happened to the President we elected?

What have they done to him?

What has happened to America?

The country we all believed in.

I feel sick.

[Webster Green]

66. Mass psychosis..

Ergot in the rye, perhaps? :*

[florida08]

76. I wish I knew

I had such hope in Obama. That the America I knew would come back. You state many of the things I have felt as well. There are 6 homes in my community in bankruptcy. There's only 50 in the whole thing. Most can't afford health care. They're destroying social security. The rightwing complains about a woman's right to choose but won't provide children's health care? They don't want universal health care? You know Bill Clinton said something I never forgot..although he was wrong about NAFTA. Abortion rates went down when he was in office. He felt that when a person's life had improved by higher wages and better health care they make better decisions. Simple and true. Now we're back to destroying them. I can't believe that half the country is confused over torture. What's to be confused about? What happened to dignity and the moral compass? I wish I knew.

[flyarm]

46. I have been weeping when i see the flag for years , and you know those big giant flags at car

dealerships that fly so high..i have had to turn my head away from them for years and years..i bet when they got the news that Chrysler was shutting many of them down now..they don't want to look at those flags anymore either..now that Obama fucked them with Fiat!! Ya know who owns 2% stake in Fiat?????????

Moammar Gadhafi

and where did the prisoner who was tortured supposedly commit suicide ?? Libya..

and who is going to get 7 billion bucks of your money ...Fiat... after Obama cut the legs out from under Chrysler...and their ability to negotiate with Fiat.
and who is going to profit from 7 billion of your tax dollars going to Fiat????


Moammar Gadhafi


So the torture victim was in a prison in the country that the dictator is going to profit from Fiat and your tax dollars..and he just happened to commit suicide before he could be questioned about his rendition to Egypt and his torture ...all a coinsidence wouldn't you say??????????????

nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[florida08]

74. good God

I didn't know that. I own a 300C that we've enjoyed very much. Good solid car. I was angry about what Obama did to Chrysler. What was up with the time limit he imposed? Banks didn't get a timeline and still want more money. Thought Fix It Again Tony was Italian but then Chryser is own primarily by Cerberus and Daimler wants out. I read not too long ago that Fiat wants more labor cuts or it will walk. The UAW and CAW are saying no more cuts. They want them to make non union wages. I hope they do walk now. What is going on when a known terrorist like Gaddafi can have an ownership stake in Chrysler for God sakes? Not to mention GM will be importing Chinese cars to the US in 2 years! A coincidence? More like a coup d'état.

[flyarm]

83. more pay for play wouldn't you say????????? eom

[florida08]

88. Indeed I would

[florida08]

25. For what it's worth

Richard Wolf just discussed this on MSNBC

Just now Nora Odonnell interviewed Senator Whitehous about waterboarding in Iraq..reported at the Daily Beast
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-13/cheneys-role-deepens/
Senator Whitehouse stated that if true and he's heard it from several sources(like this one) that it takes the OLC memos out of the hands of it's office and into his hands as it purpose was to prevent imminent attacks into the realm for invesitigations.

Two U.S. intelligence officers confirm that Vice President Cheney’s office suggested waterboarding an Iraqi prisoner, a former intelligence official for Saddam Hussein, who was suspected to have knowledge of a Saddam-al Qaeda connection.

*The former chief of the Iraq Survey Group, Charles Duelfer, in charge of interrogations, tells The Daily Beast that he considered the request reprehensible.

[wiggs]

26. Torture is one thing...but leading a country to war through lies of any sort is quite another

of an epic scale that cannot be ignored. The neocons involved must be exposed and held accountable.

[bdamomma]

58. sickening the crap is really hitting the fan, and cheney that SOB

is trying to CYA, torturing people to get them to confess there was connection between Iraq and Al Queda, give me break, this all points to Cheney, keep talking Dick, it will catch up to you.

[MadMaddie]

60. I think it is raised to a level of Treason

No one is talking about it but that is what the * admin did...

[Enthusiast]

73. Oh, it is beyond the threshold of treason. nt

[Vidar]

27. Applauding Wilkerson.

[santamargarita]

28. Project for the New American Century..."the New Pearl Harbor"

These assholes planned/wanted 911 so they could 'war profiteer', grab more power, trash the Constitution, spy on Democrats and keep stealing elections! And, I bet Cheney is is trying to stage another attack just to make President Obama look bad.

[digidigido]

35. exactly

[myrna minx]

32. K&R n/t

[DU GrovelBot]

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[MasonJar]

34. What good is the gusher if Obama refuses to acknowledge it and act on it?

I am so discouraged. How can the president continue to ignore such weighty evidence of wrongdoing of such massive proportions?

[Kablooie]

59. Yep. Might as well just whistle and look the other way. NO ONE WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE!!!!

[Kitty Herder]

39. K&R

[w4rma]

41. Finally. Someone says it: The torture wasn't extract information, but to create propaganda. (nt)

[undergroundpanther]

49. and so again why did the iraq war happen?

And if bush and his buddies tortured people just for some propaganda,to justify a brutal war, I am sure 911 was mihop. Just my opinion.
Psychopaths with power and people around them ,willing to cover up abuse of power by psychopaths who have it in their hands to do whatever they want, are very dangerous to human life.

Humanity is locked on a planet with cold ice blooded high functioning normal acting psychopaths as well as the lower functioning ones..They do not change,therapy makes them worse, there is no 'rehabbing' of psychopaths. So the question is what are we going to do about this bad people problem?

[undergroundpanther]

47. Bush and his "cronies"

Most of the top 1 percent wealthy, I bet are high functioning psychopaths.They do not care who gets hurt in their stupid ego games,even if it is entire nations.They probably start wars because the horrors of war are their porn.

Evil they,they didn't get where they are by being fair,nice or compassionate.This system the market the way we are socialized all of it was to protect the most ruthless among us from EVER having to suffer anything never be broke ,helpless or treated like a "normal person" Their excessive self esteem makes them think they can do no wrong they are 'masters' of our reality.In the psychopaths POV there is no good or evil really.,These pigs use us and think that empathy and compassion are tools for making ,more victims to be exploited,self interest to a bully IS doing evil and whatever a psychopath wants is is good no matter how much horrors it causes to us'little peons'. Because we to them are a never ending disposable resource, people to dupe,use up and throw away.


Some of politics along with corporations, military and FBI CIA NSA and Black water,now Xe(laugh)and whatever other quasi corporate/military alphabet soup organizations there are out there jockeying for domination, I am pretty certain are RUN by psychopaths,authoritarians and narcissists playing games at humankind's expense.WAR is one such pointless game that fucked up leaders drag us into,that serves no purpose beyond getting the leader to look big or tough while killing off people for those that think humanity is the problem who sidestep the notion of there are bad personalities among us who are THE problem.

I hate the evil and the trauma these rotten malignant purposeless people cause the rest of humanity..

[peacetalksforall]

48. The reasons we came up with and believe in through those long, dark,

cold days while Cheney and Rumsfeld 'positioned' the war were horrible. We 'knew' what they were doing and the MOST of the people of this country manuevered by Cheney and Rumsfeld and the owners end editors of tne media, the military brass, certain reverends and rabbis, ceo's and stockholders, foundations and trusts, and secret societies - bought it all. We KNEW.

Can we come up with a dozen Wildkerson's - people at the top who have come forward - later rather than sooner?

I think we should place all the blame on Mz. Rice and see if anyone comes to her rescue.

Always remember, it wasn't a war except on tv and in speeches. It was a criminal act that was never prosecuted within the rule of law - live criminals are walking around and living in nice houses.

Always remember, dino's participated in the ruse.

Always remember the pain you felt when leaders you liked held hands with the criminals and gave them all their support.

Always remember how the good dems were silenced. I have come to shudder at the word 'hearng'. The only successful hearings in the last twenty years were the ones that led to the impeachment of Clinton - successful because the hate-filled Republicans pulled if off and won. The others have been 'show' and 'pretend'. With this exception: There were questions asked and some answers received that MIGHT prove to be legal clinchers because of lies told or evidence gained. Otherwise, the hearings were all to mollify us - the ones who knew what Ceney and Rumsfeld were doing.


Whatever happens never allow Hamilton to represent Democrats or Specter to represent Republicans on any Commissions - or Bob Kerry and quite a few others.

Whatever happens, let's hope Lindsey Graham will fade away from his .

Whatever happens to Cheney, let's hope that they get him for doing business while a V.P. - especially his business involving nuclear supplies and technology.

This is a sick country. It could sink by its hypocrisy even if the crimes aren't added up. We need to get our people into office - and kick out the Republicans - from the school boards to the supreme court.

We can only try to grow our trust in each other. A war has been declared against us by the consortium of corporations, wall street, foundations-trusts, military, media, reverends and rabbis, secret societies, Federal Society and NED type organizations, Tri-Lateral Commissions and the 'burgers and all the Blackwaters and the killer side of the intelligence divisions.

[OneGrassRoot]

52. It's deja vu all over again.

I swear, we are privy to so much information here -- long before, if ever, the M$M gets hold of it -- that I lose track of when something really becomes NEWS. News in the sense that OTHER people besides us are learning about it.

Unless I'm losing my mind, so much stuff touted as BREAKING of late, was also BREAKING a mere few weeks ago, when a trusted source revealed information on one show or another. Then it hits another publication, usually referring to the initial one, and it's breaking news again.

But it rarely takes hold beyond one or two shows to spread like wildfire.

Maybe we can have a WILDFIRE news alert, to let us know when something finally gains legs.

Funny how the Pelosi story today spread like wildfire and all the other BushCo stuff remain fragmented embers, just waiting to catch fire. Will they?

My sincere appreciation to kpete, babylonsister and others who keep us posted as things hit the intertubes and other media. This OP isn't a reflection of the above at all. I'm just making a general observation and venting.

I'm just overloaded, frustrated and frazzled.

:crazy:

[Octafish]

63. November 22, 1963

Vietnam and Iraq Wars Started by Same People

Money to gain power. Power to gain money. And one day, it will all be theirs.

[Liberal_in_LA]

70. kick

[pjt7]

78. Wilkerson is the man

we need to see more of him.

[Vinca]

77. Cheney, in particular, should be in prison.

[JPZenger]

81. Toture Generated False Alarms of Attacks

The Red Cross quoted one tortured guy as saying that he made up phony planned attacks to try to get the torture to stop. He said that led to false alarms of attacks.

Remember about 3 or 4 years ago when there were front page headlines that the terrorists were planning to blow up Prudential Insurance in Newark, New Jersey? "Yes, we will blow up the infidel insurance company."

[JPZenger]

82. Powell Speaks Through Wilkerson?

There is a feeling that when Wilkerson speaks, it is really coming from Colin Powell. Wilkerson is very loyal to Powell.

[fascisthunter]

84. which points back at Bush's Lies for Attacking Iraq

yes there was a conspiracy

[redqueen]

85. We can't let them get away with making Pelosi the center of attention right now.

The reason they're doing it is so obvious.

[mopinko]

87. lotsa luck getting people not to watch the shiny shiny

when we get that skill down, we really will run this country again.

[redqueen]

90. It's an uphill battle, that's for sure.

Worth fighting though. :hi:

[mopinko]

92. yeah, if you need more

:banghead:

:hi: