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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:08 PM
Original message
Torturing the Rule of Law
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22705.htm

By Rep. Dr. Ron Paul

May 26, 2009 "Information Clearing House" -- While Congress is sidetracked by who said what to whom and when, our nation finds itself at a crossroads on the issue of torture. We are at a point where we must decide if torture is something that is now going to be considered justifiable and reasonable under certain circumstances, or is America better than that?

“Enhanced interrogation” as some prefer to call it, has been used throughout history, usually by despotic governments, to cruelly punish or to extract politically useful statements from prisoners. Governments that do these things invariably bring shame on themselves.

In addition, information obtained under duress is incredibly unreliable, which is why it is not admissible in a court of law. Legally valid information is freely given by someone of sound mind and body. Someone in excruciating pain, or brought close to death by some horrific procedure is not in any state of mind to give reliable information, and certainly no actions should be taken solely based upon it.

For these reasons, it is illegal in the United States and illegal under Geneva Conventions. Simulated drowning, or water boarding, was not considered an exception to these laws when it was used by the Japanese against US soldiers in World War II. In fact, we hanged Japanese officers for war crimes in 1945 for water boarding. Its status as torture has already been decided by our own courts under this precedent. To look the other way now, when Americans do it, is the very definition of hypocrisy.

Matthew Alexander, author of “How to Break a Terrorist” used non-torture methods of interrogation in Iraq with much success. In fact, one cooperative jihadist told him, “I thought you would torture me, and when you didn’t, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That’s why I decided to cooperate.” Alexander also found that in Iraq “the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq.” Alexander’s experiences unequivocally demonstrate that losing our humanity is not beneficial or necessary in fighting terror.

The current administration has reversed its position on releasing evidence of torture by the previous administration and we must ask why. A great and moral nation would have the courage to face the truth so it could abide by the rule of law. To look the other way necessarily implicates all of us and would of course further radicalize people against our troops on the ground. Instead, we have the chance to limit culpability for torture to those who were truly responsible for these crimes against humanity.

Not everyone who was given illegal orders obeyed them. Many FBI agents understood that an illegal order must be disobeyed and they did so. The others must be held accountable, so that all of us are not targeted for blowback for the complicity of some.

The government’s own actions and operations in torturing people, and in acting on illegally obtained and unreliable information to kill and capture, are the most radicalizing forces at work today, not any religion, nor the fact that we are rich and free. The fact that our government engages in evil behavior under the auspices of the American people is what poses the greatest threat to the American people, and it must not be allowed to stand."



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rustydog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Torture is illegal. we have signed treaties against the use of torture
To change would be as abhorrent as us trying to legitimize Enhanced Interrogation.
or trying to claim torture works.

Shit, Murder works. if you want someone out of the way, pop a cap in their ass.
If you want a new car, steal the sum bitch. Rape is wrong, but only to the victim, right?

The apologists need to be equated with the thief, rapist and Murderer who are only thinking of their self-pleasure, damn convention, law or moral obligation.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Exactly...no excuses. n/t
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. Former Interrogator Rebukes Cheney for Torture Speech
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=316975&mesg_id=317074

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfYov5o5_2s

"...Matthew Alexander was the senior military interrogator for the task force that tracked down Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq and, at the time, a higher priority target than Osama bin Laden. Mr. Alexander has personally conducted hundreds of interrogations and supervised over a thousand of them.

"Torture does not save lives. Torture costs us lives," Mr. Alexander said in an exclusive interview at Brave New Studios. "And the reason why is that our enemies use it, number one, as a recruiting tool...These same foreign fighters who came to Iraq to fight because of torture and abuse....literally cost us hundreds if not thousands of American lives."
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. kcik
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. thanks n/t
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. You're welcome.
:hi:
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. kick...
"...A great and moral nation would have the courage to face the truth so it could abide by the rule of law. To look the other way necessarily implicates all of us and would of course further radicalize people against our troops on the ground. Instead, we have the chance to limit culpability for torture to those who were truly responsible for these crimes against humanity...

The government’s own actions and operations in torturing people, and in acting on illegally obtained and unreliable information to kill and capture, are the most radicalizing forces at work today, not any religion, nor the fact that we are rich and free. The fact that our government engages in evil behavior under the auspices of the American people is what poses the greatest threat to the American people, and it must not be allowed to stand."




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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. I believe these are valid points.
"Matthew Alexander, author of “How to Break a Terrorist” used non-torture methods of interrogation in Iraq with much success. In fact, one cooperative jihadist told him, “I thought you would torture me, and when you didn’t, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That’s why I decided to cooperate.” Alexander also found that in Iraq “the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq.” Alexander’s experiences unequivocally demonstrate that losing our humanity is not beneficial or necessary in fighting terror.

The current administration has reversed its position on releasing evidence of torture by the previous administration and we must ask why. A great and moral nation would have the courage to face the truth so it could abide by the rule of law. To look the other way necessarily implicates all of us and would of course further radicalize people against our troops on the ground. Instead, we have the chance to limit culpability for torture to those who were truly responsible for these crimes against humanity."

Thanks for the thread, slipslidingaway.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thank you :)) I thought they were valid points as well. nt
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