The VAT... a nationaltax?? just great.

[ejpoeta]

At the Huffington Post there was a link to a washington post article about a national tax similar to, I guess, what other countries have. This has previously been 'taboo' but with all the money we are spending, I guess it it is seriously being considered. Advocates say it could pay for healthcare for all americans. Well, that would be great. But I imagine that if they actually do this, it won't go for healthcare for all. It would probably just go into someone's pocket. I still contend as I have said in other posts that people wouldn't mind the taxes so much if we ever saw anything for it. But we don't. Instead of using monies collected for their intended purposes... like fixing roads or say the lottery money for schools... the money goes into the 'general fund' which they just piss away. It's easy to do with other people's money. Or to give themselves raises.

Locally, there are an number of counties where downsizing is being discussed as a way to save money. But who gets to decide whether there are less jobs for county legislators?? that's right... the county legislators. It's so frustrating!! The last thing any of these folks is going to do is hurt their job or their benefits.

yes, i am mad. I sit here scraping by, admittedly better off than many people I know, and see my fate regarding how much living costs me in the hands of folks who never seem to have to deal with pay cuts or cuts in benefits.... and it kind of makes me mad. And they never seem to miss an opportunity to screw us over one way or another. And yet, they keep getting re-elected. Because instead of paying attention, voters just go vote for the letter after the name, and then complain about what a crappy job our representatives are doing. GRR!!

[TexasObserver]

1. Nixon and Ford both advocated for such.

As with all sales taxes, the issue is what will be taxed, at what level, by whom, and how much?

The more powerful the lobby, the more likely they are to have exceptions, exclusions, or provisions which create trap doors.

[MADem]

2. VATs SUCK.

You think you're paying "X" for an item, and you get to the register and there's the local tax, the state tax, and the national tax added in?

The Canadians are coming over the line in droves, not just because of the eighty three cents they're paying in stores for one of our American dollars (the actual rate is better, but the stores are charging for the convenience) but also because they're avoiding that onerous VAT and local taxes.

Governments need to pare some of this shit down--and by shit, I mean patronage jobs, absurdly high salaries for public officials, to include legislators, and bullshit "make work" projects that no one wants or needs. Economies can be found if someone bothers to mind the till.

[ejpoeta]

3. that's what i mean. they aren't going to get rid of their bs money cyphoning shit.

just tax more. uggh. a little here and a little there adds up. it wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't coming from every damned direction. and it wouldn't be so bad if our taxes went to things like universal healthcare and better schools and such. but it doesn't. it goes to wasteful spending stuff that gets these clowns re-elected. something is broken in our system. definitely.

[MADem]

6. Here's a good link:

I provided it downthread, but it's worth a read. Now the VAT countries are looking at VAT, and saying what I say--this sucks!

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/1/af06d6b0-ffc3-11da-93a0-0000779e2340.html

.....VAT has a reputation as a tax that consumers are willing to pay and businesses willing to administer. No wonder that politicians – most recently in Germany – have relentlessly increased VAT rates.

Yet it is in Europe that the weaknesses are at their most glaring. This month the European Commission launched an “in-depth debate” on whether VAT should be modified. Chas Roy-Chowdhury of the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants says:
“I think the writing is on the wall for the VAT system.”

European VAT is in a mess for two main reasons: its vulnerability to fraud and its complexity. Fraud, evasion and avoidance cost at least one in every 10 euros of the tax collected – roughly double that in other industrialised countries, according to the Paris-based Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

VAT abuse takes many forms – most commonly the reluctance of traders in the black economy to have anything to do with the tax. But the biggest headache is sophisticated fraud. There is more at stake than just underpaid tax; governments can be tricked into paying out large sums to racketeers.

The problem lies largely in the refund process, described in an International Monetary Fund working paper last year as VAT’s “Achilles heel”. VAT is normally self-policing: everyone in the supply chain has an incentive to act as tax-collectors as they offset the VAT they pay their suppliers against the VAT they charge their customers. But in some circumstances, notably when exporting goods – which are VAT-free under nearly all national systems – businesses can claim refunds.

European governments are doubly vulnerable because, since the 1993 arrival of the single market, they have been unable to collect VAT due on imports at their borders – leaving the responsibility for collecting the tax with the importer. That has created an opportunity for “missing trader” fraud, in which the importer disappears with the tax. In a lucrative variation – “carousel fraud” – goods are repeatedly imported and re-exported in a series of contrived transactions, with VAT stolen by the importer and a refund claimed by the exporter every time the goods are moved to another state.....

[Pab Sungenis]

4. You're confused about VAT.

The current American system of sales tax is the one where you never know until the end what the final cost is. VAT is Value Added - in other words, the sales tax is included in the price.

And if we could make it as non-regressive as possible, excluding food and necessities like most states sales taxes do, I'd support replacing the income tax with VAT.

[MADem]

5. No I'm not--I've lived in VAT countries, and they suck.

Things cost twice as much in VAT countries than they do in countries without VAT. Yes, money is added on at every stage of the process--from rolling out metal to fabrication to producing the end product, I get that--but the bottom line is, the VAT makes the whole mess cost way more than it would without VAT. That three hundred dollar refrigerator in the USA is three hundred POUNDS plus tax in the UK--because they also tack on more VAT at end of the line, the point of sale. Do the math--it's a ripoff. I've comparison-shopped, and you never get a better deal in a VAT country. EVER.

And you wait forever to see a doctor in VAT countries, even if it is free in some of them.

What's the good of "free" if you're dead? The rich in UK go to Harley Street. The rich in Canada or elsewhere come to USA or become "medical tourists" and go anywhere from Brazil to India to points beyond.

VAT is also a regressive tax--it hits the poor much harder than it hits the rich. The rich don't care what they pay for stuff--it's why rich Madonna didn't blink when she moved to UK. It's also why new (and poorer) British artists and actors move to the USA as quick as they can manage.

The minute you start "making exceptions" like they do in parts of Canada (school shoes and "poor kid's shoes" don't get the GST--Goods and Services Tax, same as VAT--but expensive 'trainers' costing a hundred bucks or more do; poor folks' food, like flour and beans, are off the hook, but frozen pizza gets the tax) you establish a serfs-n-lords attitude--you poor folks can't HAVE that frozen pizza, see? It's too expensive for you! Or if you DO have it, you'll do without something else!

You also establish a BUREAUCRACY to oversee what can and cannot be taxed. Those bozos making decisions and "enforcing" the tax need to get paid, and they will hoover up all the "savings" in no time, and then grow to a ponderously large organization that sustains an unneeded Rip Off con game.

I will reiterate--VATs SUCK. Despite the fact that the VAT adherents argue that VAT was designed to curb cheating and smuggling, they didn't count on outright stealing and hijacking--I never saw so many people dealing with "shit that fell off the truck" as I have done in VAT countries. At times I felt like a hapless extra in a SOPRANOS episode, I was approached so frequently. VAT fraud is fucking RAMPANT, and people do it because they feel like they're being ripped off--which they are.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/1/af06d6b0-ffc3-11da-93a0-0000779e2340.html

http://www.ukincorp.co.uk/s-1E-vat-value-added-tax-registration.html

[sinkingfeeling]

7. Ditto! VATs SUCK.

[Oregone]

8. The Canadians aren't coming because of the bottom line

If you look at the exchange rate and the HST, GST (VAT), depending on the time of year, it still remains cheaper to shop in Canada (contrary to popular belief and logic, often a $5 dollar pair of sandals in the US also costs $5 CAN in Canada, so depending on the exchange, it could wash out a GST/HST tax disadvantage). Of course, when the dollar went on par, that changed the equation tons, but for the most part, when the Canadian dollar is 85 cents on the US or less, any potential savings doesn't justify the cost of gas to go south. To top it off, they have to pay duties on anything they buy over there.

Canadians, in my anecdotal experience, come for the malls. They come for J Crew, Target, and other stores simply not in Canada. There are some large chains in the States that simply aren't in Canada. It drives my wife nuts since we moved here.

[MADem]

9. I disagree. Stuff in Canada is obscenely expensive. At least on the

Atlantic side of things. You can do mail order for JCrew and Target--they're online, after all.

I have relatives who are CA citizens who come across the border all the time (much more so since the exchange rate has been so favorable for them) and who run about like frantic contestants on Supermarket Sweep.

They go MAD for the jeans, for some reason, which they say are much more expensive "over the line," and the high-end basketball star sneakers, and Macy's (why I do not know, but they could spend days in there, more if they can get "coupons" from the flyers) but that's not all there is to it. Just about everything is cheaper on this side--clothes, food, gee-gaws, you name it.

I was at a CANADIAN TIRE (not a tire shop, for those reading along--it's just named that; they sell all kinds of crap, more like an Ace Hardware) which is in a mall in Woodstock, NB, just a month ago, and couldn't believe the prices. And that's pretending it's a dollar-for-dollar exchange, ignoring the strong Canadian currency factored in (making it even worse). No bargains to be had, except for some slightly shopworn packets of discontinued "Melitta" style coffee filters in the sale bin, which were going for a buck a pack. I bought a few of those.

I'd rather duck back over the US border before buying anything outta Canada. Not until the rate improves, certainly. I hope that Canadians keep coming over the border, though, and buying out the joint--it's good for our economy.

Edit, to provide an example:

Weber E310 three burner gas bbq grill:

Canadian Tire price: 749 CANADIAN. http://canada.shoplocal.com/storeinsertlarge.aspx?storeid=2565897&rapid=693773&page=4&storename=canadian-tire

WALMART (USA) price: 519 US. http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10878990

Big diff!

[Oregone]

10. Maybe something is different here in BC...thats not the case at all from what I see...

I mean, as far as jeans, I found a Canadian jean chain that I buy from now that is WAY cheaper and they just make better jeans (Something warehouse). Electronics? Hell, my own computer (ACER) would of cost a fortune in the states. I bought it from Staples around Christmas when I was going to go back to the States. After comparing all the prices and paying $200 CAN extra in taxes, I saved a bundle.

Canadian Tire!?!? I love them. I saved $400 bucks on my brakes (compared to a quote I got from Les Schwab in the States). Also saved about $200 bucks on 4 brand new tires (tax included).

The rate sucks right now, but when it went to $.79 to $1 US, I was getting steals here.

And I live on an island.

People here love going to Seattle for the stores and outlets. I rarely here anyone talk about saving money though.

BTW, there is a Walmart here too. They don't sell Weber but they got decent prices on comparable grills:

http://walmart.ca/wps-portal/storelocator/Canada-FeaturedPage.jsp?selection=listing&tabId=6&&&categoryId=1496&departmentId=203&searchQuery=&tabId=6¤tPage=1&sortByMD=Retail%20Price&MDsortOrder=DESC

BUT, Ive found Walmart to mysteriously cost more here than other shops even. I still grabbed 42" flat screen Samsung TV there for under $650 (without a deal, tax included). I couldn't beat that State side.

[MADem]

11. It must be. I'm telling you, I've seen more of these frigging relatives in the

last year and a half than I have in the previous fifty years. I don't think they've suddenly decided that we're the adored branch of our diasporic family.

They're distant relations, too, but they know it's free eats and a place to lay the old head when they come across the line--and they're doing it, a LOT, lately. They spend hardly any time "visiting"--they're too busy shopping till they drop, and loading up the trunk!