Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Amend vs Revise THAT is the question

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 09:32 AM
Original message
Amend vs Revise THAT is the question
Edited on Wed May-27-09 09:58 AM by Statistical
Lots of misconceptions about what CASC did yesterday.

Here is the opinion and some excerpts
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/C058306.PDF

In addressing the issues now presented in the third chapter of this narrative, it is important at the outset to emphasize a number of significant points. First, as explained in the Marriage Cases, supra, 43 Cal.4th at page 780, our task in the present proceeding is not to determine whether the provision at issue is wise or sound as a matter of policy or whether we, as individuals, believe it should be a part of the California Constitution. Regardless of our views as individuals on this question of policy, we recognize as judges and as a court our responsibility to confine our consideration to a determination of the constitutional validity and legal effect of the measure in question. It bears emphasis in this regard that our role is limited to interpreting and applying the principles and rules embodied in the California Constitution, setting aside our own personal beliefs and values.


Something to point out is this is the same court that initially ruled that CA statute against same sex marriage was invalid.
The court is making the issue clear that they are NOT deciding if the Prop is constitutional or even if it is a good idea. The petitioner did not ask that question and NEITHER side presented arguments to that effect. A court that passes ruling based on questions never asked is incredibly dangerous.

Instead, the principal issue before us concerns the scope of the right of the people, under the provisions of the California Constitution, to change or alter the state Constitution itself through the initiative process so as to incorporate such a limitation as an explicit section of the state Constitution.


The question before the court was the process not the prop. Many people were mislead by the media and even DU but the constitutionality of the direct effects of Prop8 was never at issue here. Sorry if that is a letdown but that is the truth. The petitioner made a calculated decision to keep the scope limited. Even if the court ruled in favor of the petitioner it STILL wouldn't have made Prop8 unconstitutional. It simply would mean the method used (ballot initiative) was invalid for revising the Constitution. Previous case law shows initiatives can only be used for amending not revising the Constitution. The Prop 8 group could still revise the Constitution but that would require a 2/3 vote of both houses and then 50% of general population. Considering how close the vote was and how divisive the issue it is unlikely they could get that support. So it would effectively kill Prop8 without ever considering Prop8.

In considering this question, it is essential to keep in mind that the provisions of the California Constitution governing the procedures by which that Constitution may be amended are very different from the more familiar provisions of the United States Constitution relating to the means by which the federal Constitution may be amended. The federal Constitution provides that an amendment to that Constitution may be proposed either by two-thirds of both houses of Congress or by a convention called on the application of two-thirds of the state legislatures, and requires, in either instance, that any proposed amendment be ratified by the legislatures of (or by conventions held in) three-fourths of the states.

In contrast, the California Constitution provides that an amendment to that Constitution may be proposed either by two-thirds of the membership of each house of the Legislature or by an initiative petition signed by voters numbering at least 8 percent of the total votes cast for all candidates for Governor in the last gubernatorial election, and further specifies that, once an amendment is proposed by either means, the amendment becomes part of the state Constitution if it is approved by a simple majority of the voters who cast votes on the measure at a statewide election.

As is evident from the foregoing description, the process for amending our state Constitution is considerably less arduous and restrictive than the amendment process embodied in the federal Constitution, a difference dramatically demonstrated by the circumstance that only 27 amendments to the United States Constitution have been adopted since the federal Constitution was ratified in 1788, whereas more than 500 amendments to the California Constitution have been adopted since ratification of California’s current Constitution in 1879.


Sadly this is the underlying problem. Constitutions are only as good as the protections put in place. CA constitution is extremely weak because it can be modified so easily. Allowing the "mob" to propose an amendment and then allowing the same 50% "mob" to ratify it is not check & balance. Over 5000 amendments have been proposed for US Constitution and only 27 have been ratified, that’s about 0.5%. The average time for ratification is 2.5 years which gives plenty of time for people to be informed and legal challenges to be made in advance. Compared to US Constitution, CA provides very little protection for minorities against majority abuses.

At the same time, as numerous decisions of this court have explained, although the initiative process may be used to propose and adopt amendments to the California Constitution, under its governing provisions that process may not be used to revise the state Constitution. (See, e.g., McFadden v. Jordan (1948) 32 Cal.2d 330; Amador Valley Joint Union High Sch. Dist. v. State Bd. of Equalization (1978) 22 Cal.3d 208; Raven v. Deukmejian (1990) 52 Cal.3d 336.) Petitioners’ principal argument rests on the claim that Proposition 8 should be viewed as a constitutional revision rather than as a constitutional amendment, and that this change in the state Constitution therefore could not lawfully be adopted through the initiative process.


Now we are getting to the legal nuts and bolts. Previous case law has found the initiative process can amend but not revise the constitution. The petitioner chose to centralize their case around one simple argument:

Prop8 revises not amends the Constitution.

They drew a line in the sand.

If the courts agree that Prop8 revised the CA Constitution then the method used for Prop8 (public initiative) is invalid and it gets thrown out WITHOUT the court ever looking at the Constitutionality of its effects. This was a calculated move. Keep it very black & white and force the courts hand with a narrow scope. Sadly it didn't work out but the petitioner chose the scope. The state can only respond to questions posed by the petitioner. The petitioner never proposed that the result of Prop8 was unconstitutional. The petitioner never argued that or presented evidence to support that. The state was never allowed to present arguments against that assertion. To believe the courts could answer a question not asked is simply illogical. The courts have NEVER had that power. Judges have been removed for basing decisions on facts not entered into evidence. It is a cornerstone of our legal system. The case never was and never was going to be decided on the issue many people thought it was about.

In analyzing the constitutional challenges presently before us, we first explain that the provision added to the California Constitution by Proposition 8, when considered in light of the majority opinion in the Marriage Cases, supra, 43 Cal.4th 757 (which preceded the adoption of Proposition 8), properly must be understood as having a considerably narrower scope and more limited effect than suggested by petitioners in the cases before us. Contrary to petitioners’ assertion, Proposition 8 does not entirely repeal or abrogate the aspect of a same-sex couple’s state constitutional right of privacy and due process that was analyzed in the majority opinion in the Marriage Cases — that is, the constitutional right of same-sex couples to “choose one’s life partner and enter with that person into a committed, officially recognized, and protected family relationship that enjoys all of the constitutionally based incidents of marriage” (Marriage Cases, supra, 43 Cal.4th at p. 829). Nor does Proposition 8 fundamentally alter the meaning and substance of state constitutional equal protection principles as articulated in that opinion. Instead, the measure carves out a narrow and limited exception to these state constitutional rights, reserving the official designation of the term “marriage” for the union of opposite-sex couples as a matter of state constitutional law, but leaving undisturbed all of the other extremely significant substantive aspects of a same-sex couple’s state constitutional right to establish an officially recognized and protected family relationship and the guarantee of equal protection of the laws.


Here is the reasoning. The court found that Prop8 doesn't limit existing rights, it simply limits the name "marriage" (courts opinion not mine). If Prop8 had restricted civil unions it would have been found to be revising (not amending) the constitution. The courts found that using the term "civil union" instead of "marriage" (and limiting the term “marriage” to only opposite sex couples) does not rise to unequal protection under the law. As noted in the first quote the court isn’t looking at the benefit of such policy, or even if it is wise.

Even the dissenting judge followed this line of reasoning. He had to because that was the only question before the court. He didn't rule on the Constitutionality of effects of Prop8 he simple reached the conclusion that limiting the term "marriage" did modify the Constitution rather than amend it. It did so because in his opinion restricting the term “marriage” is unequal protection under the law. In doing so a revision instead of an amendment is not valid via the initiative process.

Many people were disappointed because they were hoping for an opinion that simply was not possible from this court. The courts scope is limited by the petitioners’ question. In this case the question was ONLY “does prop 8 amend or revise the constitution?” Since the CA constitution provides no existing protection for the term "marriage" and “civil unions” (not prohibited under Prop8) can provide all the benefits of marriage without the term “marriage” the courts found it was an amendment not a revision. That is the ONLY thing the court did yesterday.

Please don’t flame me. None of this is my personal opinion. Personally I think the petitioner’s lawyer made a bad calculated bet. I think a lawsuit that “separate but equal is not equal” directly to the Ninth Circuit court as a civil rights violation under the 14th amendment would have been a better route. This is all hindsight though, if the plantiff had been successful the lawyer would look like a genius by killing Prop8 without every arguing merits of Prop8.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. K&R...
good, well presented post. Thanks for clarifying some of the issues involved.

Sid
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. But the bottom line is
we can not get married. And the reason is the religiously based intolerance of California's voters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Sure you can.
The state just won't call it what you call it, and you still get all the legal benefits. The state now has to issue you a license to be legally joined together in a contract with the same conditions of any other such contract.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. No argument there. I just wanted to clarify what the court did say...
Also the "unusual" situation of leaving 18K marriages intact but denying future marriages creates a situation where a single group of people (same sex partners wishing to marry) are treated differently. One subgroup can remain married, one subgroup can never (at least under law as it is now marry).

This all but guarantees the ninth circuit will hear a petition on equal protection under the law issues. Sadly I think the ninth circuit could legally "resolve" this situation by mandating CA change the existing 18K marriages to civil unions. I am not sure if they would do that but it would be a risk.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. IOW, the fight in California is over a word.
Civil Union or Marriage?

A rose by any other name...

Sounds like gay couples in California can get licenses to be legally bound together and enjoy the same civil rights as hetero couples, the only difference being in what the state calls the civil union.

IOW, the court adopted the position of both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.

I, personally, disagree with the state calling ANY civil union a marriage.

Civil Unions for ALL!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. the only way that would be acceptable is if the "civil contract" or "domestic partnership"
Edited on Wed May-27-09 11:06 AM by KittyWampus
was the document ALL couples sign.

In your thread from yesterday, you didn't make it clear whether you agree that there must be one contract ALL couples must sign in the court house.

I agree with your strategy if that is what you meant.

IMO, it's best to remove word marriage from that one document that applies to any/all couples.

Joint Household Contract
Domestic Partnership Contract

Civil Union Contract is probably not a good idea as that term already has got legal meanings that don't align 100% with the goal of providing all couples with a legal contract issued by the state and recognized as valid.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Works for me. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. True, but the best solution I read was in a thread on fark yesterday ...
... (I'm paraphrasing and adding a bit from a DU thread from yesterday) The state will recognize the marriage* between two adult humans, where the asterisk would allow the superstitiously inclined to apply for a "spiritual union" separate from the state marriage license and supplied from the religious institution of their choice.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Towlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. Very interesting, but probably way too complicated for the manistream media.
So is there any hope left for this issue?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. California can pass a pro-gay marriage amendment in 2010.
Edited on Wed May-27-09 10:59 AM by Eric J in MN
Public opinion is moving to the pro-gay marriage side.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Honestly?
Given how small the margin of victory for Prop8 was the "easiest" solution is to defeat it legislatively.

Often the courts can be unpredictable.

Those denied a future marriage could sue under equal protection under the law directly to the ninth circuit.
The risk there is the 9th could resolve it by requiring CA to make the 18K existing marriages civil unions thus past & future same sex couples would have equal standing.

I am not saying they will do that or that they should do that but it is a risk.

If it were me. I would get some serious funding together and propose new Prop to "undo" Prop8.
Next I would propose a Prop making ratifying any amendment require 2/3 vote thus making CA Constitution harder to modify.

500 amendments in <200 years? seriously. WTF? That alone should indicate a problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. And, would the Prop requiring the 2/3 vote have to pass by 2/3 or
by a simple majority?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Good question.
I would assume simple majority as it is the law until the amendment goes into effect.

Then again I am not a lawyer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Going Federal On This Now Will Lose At The US Supreme Court

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
13. But here's the way I interpret it. Let me know what you think.
We are now unable to pass a ballot proposition that reverses Prop 8 because that would be a "revision" and not an "amendment." To remove the existing language that Prop 8 put in place we would need a 2/3rds vote in the legislature right? BUT, we could easily pass a law allowing for "civil unions" or some other term. And then opponents of gay marriage wouldn't be able to revise Prop 8 to encompass civil unions because that would be a revision and must be done by the legislature!

Does anyone know if I have that right or wrong?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Sounds to me as if you have it wrong
I am a lawyer, but not a California one, and this two-tiered structure for changing a constitution is completely new to me. Therefore, don't take this as authoritative.

My semi-educated guess, though, is that, if making a particular change counts as an amendment rather than a revision, then unmaking the same change should also be an amendment. It would be illogical to say that a simple majority could pass something that would later take two-thirds to undo.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-27-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I think that is correct.
Repealing an ammendment is simply another ammendment.

For example the 21st ammendment repealed the 14th (prohibition) it followed the same process as any other ammendment.

As some people would like to see repealing the 2nd ammendment would simply require a new ammendment to the US Constitution . It would be the 28th ammendment as simply would need to say something like:

Amendment 28:
The 2nd ammendment of the US Constitution is hereby repealed.

Of course the US Constitution makes no distinction between amending or revising. This is a CA unique thing.

Hopefully someday CA citizens on both sides of the isle realize the danger of a document that can be overturned by a simple majority.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC