Oh, so now a national sales tax is suddenly a good idea?

[Subdivisions]

I don't know/remember which side DU falls (fell) on the idea of a national sales tax. But I do know that former debate on the issue ended with it dying on the vine. But now that the goldman sachs (government) of the United States has rammed our nation into the ground by ciphoning off the next three generations' tax liability, suddenly now they are considering it. And, do you think it'll be considered as a replacement to the income tax? Don't bet on it! It looks like it will be ON TOP OF the current income tax. This fucking country is out of control!!!

From the Washington Post:

Once Considered Unthinkable, U.S. Sales Tax Gets Fresh Look

Levy Viewed as Way to Reduce Deficits, Fund Health Reform

With budget deficits soaring and President Obama pushing a trillion-dollar-plus expansion of health coverage, some Washington policymakers are taking a fresh look at a money-making idea long considered politically taboo: a national sales tax.

Common around the world, including in Europe, such a tax -- called a value-added tax, or VAT -- has not been seriously considered in the United States. But advocates say few other options can generate the kind of money the nation will need to avert fiscal calamity.

At a White House conference earlier this year on the government's budget problems, a roomful of tax experts pleaded with Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner to consider a VAT. A recent flurry of books and papers on the subject is attracting genuine, if furtive, interest in Congress. And last month, after wrestling with the White House over the massive deficits projected under Obama's policies, the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee declared that a VAT should be part of the debate.

"There is a growing awareness of the need for fundamental tax reform," Sen. Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) said in an interview. "I think a VAT and a high-end income tax have got to be on the table."

...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/26/AR2009052602909.html?hpid=topnews



"But advocates say few other options can generate the kind of money the nation will need to avert fiscal calamity."

What the fucking hell???!!!11?? Which is it? http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/27/news/economy/NABE_recovery_outlook/index.htm?postversion=2009052703">Economic recovery and "http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2009/03/bernanke_sees_green_shoots.html">green shoots" or "fiscal calamity"???

[no_hypocrisy]

1. Would there be a national sales tax on the purchase of a home?

And on top of state sales tax?

[Oregone]

29. There is here only on new homes

(in Canada)

Sometimes the builder/developer splits it with the buyer.

[roguevalley]

52. great. more debt slavery

[upi402]

2. You don't expect the pigs who were at the trough to chip in do you?

Yes, it is toast in these here parts. They'd tax homes up to the national average and cap it, like my Fed payroll deducts;
FICA CAP for 2000 was $76,200.00
FICA CAP for 2001 was $80,400.00
FICA CAP for 2002 was $84,900.00
FICA CAP for 2003 was $87,000.00
FICA CAP for 2004 was $87,900.00
FICA CAP for 2005 was $90,000.00
FICA CAP for 2006 was $94,200.00
FICA CAP for 2007 was $97,500.00
FICA CAP for 2008 is $102,000.00


Time I see Willy Nelson doing a "Rich Aid" benefit concert and I'd know Salvador Dali on acid was in charge.

g/l

[WCGreen]

3. Well, it would force more and more tax on the working class,

but I guess that is what they want, that's what they will do...

[Johonny]

4. I dislike regressive taxes.

Raise the tax rates on the upper tax brackets instead.

[WCGreen]

6. But but but that would stiffle the creative financial shenannigans...

Seriously though, inEeurope, the VAT is added in along the production cycle so that the cost of the tax accumulates along the process. They need to keep capital gains tax, tax on interest and dividends and a rate at the top level of income.

[truedelphi]

64. Although that is sound thinking, the United States of Goldman Sachs

By Goldman Sachs and For Goldman Sachs is not about to consider that proposal.

[Mist]

5. Well, that should give a much-needed boost to the consumer economy. Not. nt

[SteppingRazor]

7. Y'know, it's funny. We complain that the U.S. is the only Western, industrialized nation ...

without a single-payer healthcare system. And then we freak when it's suggested that we're the only Western, industrialized nation without a VAT tax. It might be that the two things go hand in hand?

[Subdivisions]

10. That could be. I'm not familiar with the healthcare/VAT of other

countries. But I can say this: I love it that healthcare reform is being used as a lure to garner support for the idea of a VAT. But, gee, do you really think that should a VAT be implemented we'll suddenly also be given a national single-payer health insurance program? Do you?

[SteppingRazor]

11. Course not. Just pointing out that the oft-lauded advantages of European countries...

come with some distinct disadvantages. That's all.

[slipslidingaway]

13. Maybe, but not while we continue to protect insurance company

profits and salaries.

:shrug:

Health insurance industry CEO salary survey, stay calm for this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5726665&mesg_id=5726665

[SteppingRazor]

18. Absolutely.

A single-payer, universal healthcare system and for-profit, private health insurance companies are, of course, mutually exclusive.

[slipslidingaway]

24. Agree nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. indeed.

[w4rma]

23. The U.S. has state sales taxes instead. (nt)

[MattSh]

34. True, but...

any country in the EU must, by EU law, charge a minimum 15% VAT tax. Most charge more. Where I am, it's 20%, and we're not even an EU nation. No US state has a sales tax anywhere near that level.

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/index_en.htm

[Hannah Bell]

40. we already spend more on health care per capita than any other country in the world.

why would we need a new 15% tax to fund single-payer?

[SidDithers]

56. Canada has Provincial and Federal sales taxes...

in some provinces they're combined into an Harmonized Sales Tax. In Ontario, we pay Provincial Sales Tax and (Federal) Goods & Services Tax on most items. Oil-rich Alberta is the only Canadian province without a provincial sales tax, but they still pay the 5% GST.

Sid

[area51]

25. Military.

We don't need a VAT to fund healthcare -- as if single-payer were on the table -- all we need to do is to cut the military budget. Bring soldiers home, offer them training in the medical professions, and it would help this country greatly.

[DireStrike]

47. I'll pay more when the rich are taxed properly

Not before.

[kath]

60. Absofuckinlutely - restore more progressivity to our income tax system - the uber-rich get off WAY

too easy. They should be taxed at MUCH higher marginal rates, like they were in the past.

[alarimer]

50. health care should be paid for the way Social Security is now.

We don't need an extra tax to pay for it. Simply divert the premiums most people are already paying (or that employers are paying) into the fund for universal health car. And everyone who is working, no matter how much money they make, pays for it on a sliding scale. The more you make, the more you pay. There should be no cap like there is with SS. I am thinking that with a public or single payer system premiums would actually decrease considerably because there is no profit-taking associated with it and very low overhead as well.

[4_TN_TITANS]

57. No way - sales taxes suck...

I'm unemployed I pay $4.89 plus tax for a gallon of milk
I'm a billionare I pay $4.89 plus tax for a gallon of milk
Dollar for dollar, it hits the lower classes much harder.

That's why TN's economy is in the shitter - when people aren't buying, you aren't taxing. Whenever it comes time to vote on an income tax versus sales tax, the gentry class comes out of the woodwork to whip people into 'no more taxes' frenzies.

[Yo_Mama]

8. It makes it impossible for lower income people to save

It would destroy a lot of jobs very quickly in retail and wholesale sales, recreation, plus transportation.

It would cut down revenue to the states considerably, so the revenue taken in at the federal level would not be a net gain - instead the federal government would have to restore a lot of that to the states just to leave them neutral.

But most of all, this is a horribly regressive proposal. Horribly. It would make it very difficult for a working class person with low to moderate income to save and eventually become a property owner.

These sorts of proposals protect people who already have money by shifting the tax burden to the poorer people.

[Greyhound]

54. Again and more so.

It's simply continuing what we've been doing since 1981, shifting the expenses of our nation to the working sheeple and forcing more of the benefits up to the parasites.

The problem is that so few of those being screwed know why or how it is happening. Just give it a happy name and put it in pretty box and they'll buy it every time.

[JVS]

9. I blame the fucking DLC

[SammyWinstonJack]

21. "Obama targets "entitlements" Social Security/Medicare to Reduce $1.2 Trillion Budget Deficit." .

http://www.economicpopulist.org/?q=content/obama-targets-entitlements-social-securitymedicare-reduce-12-trillion-budget-deficit "Entitlement" programs? :wtf:

Is Obama looking to privatize Social Security, and hand it over to Wall St ?

Accomplish what bu$hco wasn't able to do?

I really HOPE he doesn't CHANGE our ENTITLEMENTS programs. :grr:

Where's that LOCKBOX when we really need it?

[Zodiak]

26. Yeah I noticed that the only Democrat quoted was a DLCer

Regressive taxes are quite okay for conservadems. It is just taxing the rich that get their panties in a wad.

[JVS]

27. Another thread mentions the idea coming from Rahm's brother

[cascadiance]

45. NOT F'IN! SURPRISING! The Rahm-per-room strikes again!!!

[hfojvt]

51. actually he mentioned the latter

"I think a VAT and a high-end income tax have got to be on the table."

I also might note that a .1% increase in the sales tax in Kansas would take $32 million in revenue. Multiply that by 50 and it is $1.6 billion relatively painlessly (costing only 1 penny for every $10 spent). Perhaps my estimate is low because bigger states like Illinois, New York, Texas and Florida pull the average up more than smaller states like South Dakota pull the average down. If a 1% sales tax generates $50 billion that is still pretty painless, but not that much revenue either. At 10% it becomes $500 billion, which is more substantial, but also not very painless any more either.

[Zodiak]

53. Yeah, nice words

But their actions speak differently.

Or have we already forgotten how the DLC got together with the pukes to reduce the inheritance tax on the richest Americans? Gotta protect those Waltons.

The DLC has no credibility when it comes to defending the little guy....none. Their words don't mean a plumb nickel.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. They're sending the bill for the "bailout" and the wars to the suckers.

The I.O.U.s are piling up and somebody has to pay. And it, sure as hell, won't be the bankers and their handmaidens in congress.

[slipslidingaway]

14. !!! nt

[BeFree]

15. Well

Something must be done to pay off the debts. Hyper-inflation is one way, raising revenues is another, and thirdly just refuse to pay and go bankrupt.

It looks like a VAT is their way of fixing their problems.

Look for black-markets to thrive under a VAT.

Suggestion if we get VATted: Any purchase under a $100, no tax.

Each $100 addition the tax goes up 1%.
Example: 1% Tax on $101 purchase would be $1.10.
$200 purchase tax would be 2% = $4.00
$300 purchase tax would be 3% = $9.00

This would keep the tax from unfairly taking a larger percentage of lower income wages and being regressive. The less than $100 purchases are to meet basic needs. Items above are progressively more of a luxury.


These are just some ideas...

[One_Life_To_Give]

17. VAT is worse than sales tax it's Stealth tax

The worst part about the VAT is you don't get to see just how much of the cost of goods is Tax when you make a purchase.

[harun]

58. It was on the sales receipt how much VAT I paid whenever I was over seas.

How much more visibility you want?

I would support a VAT if it was low, like < 4%. Also if they used it ONLY to pay off debt. Then if debt is low lower it, if debt gets crazy high let it increase, but keep it < 4% (total, since it can be applied in stages on a product). This way the electorate has visibility in to how much deficit spending is going on and that they should tell their representatives to cool it.

[One_Life_To_Give]

67. Final Vat only is shown

My understanding is only the final portion of the VAT is shown. pThat which you could recaim part of when selling to the next individual. VAT from all transactions prior to that are included in the price of the product. Unlike a sales tax which exempts wholesale and lumps all tax at the final sale and is hence completly visable to the purchaser.

[harun]

68. I am not sure about that but if it is only the final VAT it

would be CRAZY high. Since I never saw a VAT < 5% on a receipt. Usually 8-15%. I thought it was the total at the end, otherwise some things would be taxed at 30-50% if you added all the VAT stages together.

The VAT's I saw on receipts were in Turkey and the Philippines. Wikipedia has a lot of info on how it works.

[Captain Hilts]

19. If you like regressive taxes they're a great idea!

[Poll_Blind]

20. As an Oregonian, I granola-poop all over that idea. The government has problems...

...spending money. They frickin' raid Social Secuirty for Christ's sake. Does it take any more examples than that? Giving a spendthrift more money like that is an awful idea.

Tough for me to get over that simple point.

PB

[cascadiance]

43. Damn yes! Thought I finally got away from sales taxes here in Oregon!

Sales tax is regressive folks! We need to hold the line against it. Right now when we have such a wealth gap that we're heading to depression, sales tax is the absolute LAST thing we should do! First of all, people will stop buying stuff even more, making sales tax and even more difficult revenue source. There's been a big shortfall in revenue in the state of Washington to the north of us for this reason! We shouldn't be taxing the very thing we want to happen in our economy that will continue to retract as long as our incomes grow and grow in imbalance and we have to focus on spending just on essentials instead of other things that might reinvigorate it.

[paulsby]

62. one of the reasons i chose WA over oregon

was that WA did not have an income tax. Oregon does.

although, i almost moved to vancouver WA. it has the best of both worlds. live and work in vancouver (no state income tax) and shop in Oregon. i have several friends who moved to vancouver from HI.

sales tax is only regressive if it does not make allowances for necessities like (unprepared) food, etc.

i vastly prefer sales tax because it penalizes consumption, not overtime and hard work.

[slipslidingaway]

22. Posted this in January when Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel joined the WH team

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4794449&mesg_id=4794449

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel on Universal Health Care - White House OMB

Our new health care system???

This interview is from April 2007

http://www.pbs.org/now/news/315.html

[Iris]

28. How would a sales tax benefit us in an economy where people don't buy stuff?

[cascadiance]

44. Exactly! State of Washington is suffering an $8 billion shortfall as a sales tax only state!

Not only is a national sales tax UNFAIR as a regressive tax and not doing what we want to restore the wealth gap, it's just plain fiscally STUPID as evidenced by what's happening to the state of Washington, who has it revenue only from sales tax! Look at how they're suffering now when people stop buying stuff! Do we want that on a national scale to help the corrupt elites to get away with paying less? HELL NO!! Just say no to the aristocracy still trying to bleed us and our country to the bone!

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2008765126_revenue20m.html

$8 billion shortfall forecast for Washington state budget

By Andrew Garber

Seattle Times Olympia bureau

OLYMPIA — It used to be lawmakers could reassure themselves a little about the state's budget woes by noting California was in much worse shape.

No longer. A preliminary state revenue forecast Thursday pushed Washington's state budget shortfall to $8 billion. As a proportion of the state's general fund, that's nearly as bad as the mess in California.

"What has happened in the Pacific Northwest is the economy just fell off a cliff in literally the last few months," said Donald Boyd, with the Rockefeller Institute of Government at the State University of New York.

Washington ranks among the top 10 states in the country in terms of the size of its budget shortfall, said Boyd, a senior fellow at the institute who closely monitors state budgets.

...

The hole in the budget keeps growing because people are spending less, which means there's less tax revenue coming in.

More than 70 percent of the money the state collects comes from sales and business-and-occupation taxes.

...

Note the Republican's response there that they expected this, and want to use it as a mean to cut back state government more instead of raising the tax (or moving to an income tax) to counteract these shortfalls.

[paulsby]

63. and plenty of states with income tax are suffering similar shortfalls

in the case of WA, correlation =/= causation.

[DJ13]

30. When will our Democratic administration stop using the Republican playbook?

If the Bush administration had proposed a national sales tax this website would have exploded in condemnation of the idea.

[dixiegrrrrl]

31. Corporations are leaving the country, so no taxes from them.

( But they paid negligible taxes for the last 12 years anyhow)

About that leaving...seems since the US is ( supposedly) cracking down on off shore tax havens,
more large corps. are moving to other countries.

This is from another DU thread:

Accenture to shift incorporation to Ireland (to put a smiley face on tax dodging)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3894600

[blueworld]

32. Screw another tax. Outsource all the politicians - thrifty, diplomatic & fun for all

I'm sick of looking at buffoons from both parties who spend more time investigating plastic surgery & bluey-blue contact lenses than they do working at their jobs and READING/WRITING timely legislation.

They're always tweeting or on TV attacking/whining - maybe if they were cloistered they'd have more time to do something besides pose for the cameras & travel around raising money (a.k.a. endless campaigning).

The Mexican or Indian legislatures would surely be a better buy with cheaper benefits. The Brits are more expensive, but they provide their citizens with a lot more benefits and they scream at the Prime Minister every day, which is fun to watch. The Koreans slug it out & insult each other which is WAAAY fun to see on TV.

The main reason for outsourcing our jobs was to provide Americans with GREAT products at AFFORDABLE prices, right? How about if we try this with Congress and state governments?

If we're going to be ignored by politicians who speak English poorly, I would like some who are entertaining & have an interesting cuisine. :mad:

[kentuck]

33. Put a .50 cent per gallon tax on gasoline...

and a windfall profit tax on the oil companies when they go above 2.50 per gallon. That will bring in tons of dough.

[SammyWinstonJack]

36. Taxing those with the least seems to be the trend. Very short-sighted, just like outsourcing good

paying jobs, is.

[applegrove]

35. We have a value added tax in Canada. We put it on top of income tax. It pays for health care.

You end up paying taxes, like 7 or 5%, on your haircuts. Send your teenagers to the mall with $100 and they will pay taxes. It really works to help balance the books. And you don't pay taxes on groceries or any basic necessities. People who don't make alot of money then get a check twice a year to reimburse them for the taxes they have paid.

It really works to balance the budget and pay for all the government programs. And if you are not a shopper but a saver..you don't pay any taxes on money you don't consume.

Most countries in the West have a VAT tax I think.

[DCKit]

59. Yes, but the idea for U.S. is to pay the insurance companies and maintain the status quo.

Any scheme or scam that allows the corporations to remain profitable (at our expense) is going to have a lot of traction in a Congress run by DLC Dinos.

However, the tax could be halved (or, doubly profitable with excess for education and other social welfare programs) with single payer, universal care. With the insurance deniers out of the equation, I could get behind a national sales tax, but that means replacing a buttload of DLCers along with another batch of (R)s in each of the next two elections.

[Shireling]

37. A national sales tax

might make sense in theory, but unless it can be adjusted in some way so that those on "fixed incomes" don't have to pay this tax, it could cause these people to be unable to afford basic necessities (already too expensive for many of them).

[ananda]

38. BAD idea. So regressive.

Make the fucking rich and the bailout recipients
pay for it.

[blindpig]

39. Fuck that, let's tax wealth, very progressively. n/t

[cascadiance]

46. If Rethugs want it that badly, ONLY allow it if they will accept a 90% top marginal tax rate again!

Let them put THEIR money where their mouth is!!

[progressoid]

41. "roomful of tax experts"??

Like the roomful of economic experts that got us in the current fuck-up?

[ItNerd4life]

42. Legalize Marijuana! The sales tax from that works for me. nt

[Bucky]

48. Depends on what kinds of sales they tax.

If it's luxury items only, I could deal with it as a temporary, sunsetted expedient for getting rid of this horrible deficit. Anything else is basically a poverty tax. Plus it would dig into state sales tax revenues.

[alarimer]

49. No it is a crappy idea and EXTREMELY REGRESSIVE

It affects poor people more because they spend proportionally more on stuff. Even if you exempt food and clothing.

Tax the fucking rich to pay their fair share. Bring back the capital gains tax.

[BostonTLover]

55. progressive consumptive tax is not a bad idea

I think it could be a good idea to tax on how much we spend as oppose to how much we earn. It can replace income tax.

It wouldn't necessarily punish the poor unless they are spending a lot - beyond any standard deduction deemed necessarily to live for whatever size family.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/business/07view.html?ex=1349409600&en=5dc544a64b1d288a&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

"Under such a tax, people would report not only their income but also their annual savings, as many already do under 401(k) plans and other retirement accounts. A family’s annual consumption is simply the difference between its income and its annual savings. That amount, minus a standard deduction — say, $30,000 for a family of four — would be the family’s taxable consumption. Rates would start low, like 10 percent. A family that earned $50,000 and saved $5,000 would thus have taxable consumption of $15,000. It would pay only $1,500 in tax. Under the current system of federal income taxes, this family would pay about $3,000 a year."

[kath]

61. TAX THE RICH! and fuck the DLC.

[truedelphi]

65. Hey there. those are words I propose to

:toast:

[Orsino]

69. A national sales tax on luxury-type items is a good idea. n/t

[TheFarseer]

66. I thought Kent Conrad would have more sense

Why don't they just raise the damn tax rates and eliminate some deductions and credits? The tax code is too complicated and too easy to manipulate. And I think an even more important point - bring back the high paying jobs. People working in the computer industry or manufacturing pay alot more taxes than someone working part-time at Home Depot. I think you can pretty much start and finish looking there for where the balanced budget went! And what's more, I'm ashamed it took Duncan Hunter who is a nutcase 90% of the time to point this out rather than Obama or Edwards or anyone you would expect to say such a thing.