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should medical insurance buyers be given the choice for limited tort

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TheCoxwain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 12:28 PM
Original message
should medical insurance buyers be given the choice for limited tort
Lower premiums in exchange with limited ability to sue medical providers.

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Hassin Bin Sober Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Do you actually think the premiums would be (stay) lower?
I'm inclined to say no. You shouldn't have to sign away a right to receive a vital service such as insurance.

My experience with these type of incentives is that they start out as incentives for compliance and then turn in to penalties for non compliance.
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TheCoxwain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Actually its a pretty stupid idea .. the causal loop is not short enough for there to be enough cost
Edited on Mon Jun-15-09 12:43 PM by TheCoxwain
benefit .. and will only serve to make the actors even more profitable.


like if some agree not sue the doctors ... doctors will see fewer suits ... which reduces the malpractice claims ...and then the malpractice will become cheaper ...

then the doctor should agree to reduce charges for some patients .....

and the insurance companies should pass on the savings to the customers ...



YEAH RIGHT!!!




What was I thinking?
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JPZenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. Been done in PA for decades for auto insurance
In Pennsylvania for decades, buyers of auto insurance have been offered the option of certain reduced privileges in legal claims in return for lower rates. I haven't heard of any problems.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. NO! So-called "tort reform" is a scam by the health industry.
It is very hard to win a malpractice suit, even to bring one unless one can pay a lawyer up front. But it is one of the very few ways, in many cases the only way, to try to bring about health industry accountability.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. Nope. No insurance co. would offer anything other than your proposed gimped policy.
Market actors collude with one another to limit consumer choices all the time. When these self-same insurers are kept "too big to fail" by US taxpayer $$$ both coming (TARP, Treasury bailout) and going (mandatory, for-profit insurance), there is no way it is fair to allow such crappy terms to be allowed--they will immediately become the standard.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thats insane
Edited on Mon Jun-15-09 12:41 PM by Oregone
Premiums should have everything to do with the expected cost of treating people in a shared risk pool. Not with lawsuits in case something goes wrong.

When you sue, you sue a medical facility or doctor. That is a different entity than the one you pay premiums to. The premiums should be absolutely unrelated.
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lindisfarne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. Industry of all sorts in the US has long fought regulation; law suits are the main way we get some
Edited on Mon Jun-15-09 12:52 PM by lindisfarne
degree of accountability. Without a far greater level of regulation, there is no way to hold physicians accountable for errors. Errors may be humans, but someone needs very often to provide lifelong care for the disabled human who results. (There are definitely cases where in fact, the physician made a justifiable decision and the jury decided against the physician wrongly. We should address these sorts of problems, but the way one addresses them is not to take away the ability to hold physicians accountable through lawsuits.)

Many believe there is a great deal of regulation in medicine - but really, that's not the case.
I'm amazed by the number of physicians who prescribe drugs for completely off-label usage, without any scientific evidence to back them up. There are physicians who prescribe a concoction of FDA approved drugs and openly argue that the concoction will destroy fat tissue. In the Schiavo case, we had physicians who felt they could diagnose her via ESP.

There are plenty of idiotic physicians out there. They need much more regulation. They also need far more continuing education requirements.

Physicians Assistants have to retake their boards every 6 years. Why shouldn't physicians be held to the same standard, made to review what they are supposed to know?

============
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Terry Dubrow, a board-certified plastic surgeon and medical director for the Costa Mesa Fig center, said the fat doesn’t wind up in the bloodstream, that it and the drug are excreted through “normal metabolic pathways.”

Richard D’Amico, assistant clinical professor of plastic surgery at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City and president of the ASPS, agrees with Kinney. “This is another example of hype and marketing getting ahead of science. Patient safety is at risk.” The ASPS doesn’t recommend patients undergo these treatments until the drugs’ safety and efficacy have been proven, he said.

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======
Other physicians question the safety, say there is no scientific justification. Yet apparently, there is no mechanism to stop physicians from doing this before the scientific data exists.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. try suing a hospital over a problem during and after surgery...
the problems have gotten so bad medicare refuses to pay for,bed sores,infections,and leaving sponges/surgical instruments.

when you sign for a surgical procedure you sign away your rights to remedy. doctors,nurses,and hospitals should be sued for negligence.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. I remember that with auto insurance in NJ. Premiums were...
marginally lower after they started it but I always had a problem with signing away your rights for a few bucks.

Ultimastely, this is just another cheap trick to save a few bucks for the people who can least afford to save those bucks-- the guy who gets creamed in his new Mercedes has a right to sue the guy in the '88 Hyundai, but the guy in the ancient beater has no right to sue the guy in the Beemer who ran the red light.

Most malpractice suits are thrown out, but that doesn't mean you should sign away the right to sue because you can't afford the insurance-- a misdiagnosis or surgical error is gonna a cost you a lot more.



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lindisfarne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I saw a woman in a Jaguar make a right turn from the left land of a two-lane street (lanes painted)
into an old beater. She clearly didn't check to see if anyone was in the right lane (didn't signal - her turn was sudden so there was no chance for her to provide the proper signal 100 yards before the turn); I suspect she was busy looking at street signs and unfamiliar with the area. Neither car was speeding, and in fact, the car in the right lane had been level with her for at least a block. Clearly, she was unaware of the traffic around her.

Both cars turned of the road and stopped to discuss. I followed and pulled up to the old beater and told the driver I had seen the accident & would be willing to serve as a witness, should he need one. I gave him my phone number.

I immediately wrote down a detailed account of what I saw (I'm well aware of all the research on how faulty memory is).

About 3 weeks later, I got a call from the young woman who owned the old beater. The insurance company of the woman with the Jaguar was threatening her, telling her she was at fault and they were going to take her to court and sue the pants off of her if she didn't sign. An acquaintance of her boyfriend had been driving the car - she said without permission. Who was driving the car was pretty irrelevant, given the Jaguar driver was fully at fault.

I told her they were bluffing and to call the state insurance commissioner to clarify what her legal rights were. I also told her to work with her insurance agent. I reiterated I would be willing to be a witness. I also told her she might want to contact a lawyer (I suggested one who didn't charge unless they collected).

Some time later, the insurance company for the Jaguar called me and asked me over the phone about what I saw. I told them I had immediately written down what I had seen and read off what I had written.

I never heard from either again. I can only hope the young woman was able to hold her ground and get the damage to her car covered.

The insurance company of the Jaguar was acting in an extremely scummy manner, and had I not made the decision to stop and give my phone number, it would have been a young kid without much resources against an older, well-off woman. Guess who would have won, without a doubt?

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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. How about lower premiums for doctors who don't get sued?
Checks and balances.

How about tort limits based on accidental events vs. events that occurred based on negligence.
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lindisfarne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. It's not quite that simple. Obstetricians are far more likely to be sued, not because
they're likely to act negligently, but because people's emotions run high when kids (especially newborns) are involved.

There are many lawsuits in which obstetricians have been judged to have acted irresponsibly, when in fact, that wasn't the case.

Unfortunately, negative things can happen during delivery and not every thing can be foreseen or prevented by the obstetrician. Assigning fault to the obstetrician in these cases is no more justifiable than assigning fault to the woman delivering (perhaps the problem could have been avoided, for example, if she were more fit; ate more healthily; didn't gain so much weight during pregnancy. I know people will object to these statements, but in fact, all of these factors can complicate pregnancy AND delivery.)
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. well certainly, there is no blanket rule
but the conversation has to be started -

Mostly, I'm all for getting health insurance out of the "for profit" business. You cannot have growth as a measure of profitability in the health insurance industry without finding a way to not have to pay out your premiums. Reducing costs - there is no fruit left on that tree.

Racketeering is the crime of charging for a service or good that you do not provide. Insuring non-risk is not insurance. If you want to reduce the cost of insurance, eliminate your risk groups, focus on preventative and consistent chronic health care, take out the market requirement to profit, fully exercise collective pricing optimization and bargaining on pharmacy and deliver real health care.

The more people who are treated before acute treatments become required, who are kept informed of their health status and have regular checkups, screenings and other preventative care, the less expensive the cost of providing healthcare will be.
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