Lessons I learned from talking to an Ayn Randian

[Taverner]

I had the privlige, nay OPPORTUNITY to talk with a real live Ayn Randian over coffee today.

Here's what I, the lowly government dependent (although I have a job, he does not) learned...

1 - The poor should pay more in taxes (if taxes are to be paid at all) because they use more services

2 - The poor should pay more for goods because they are responsible for their own poverty, and by being poor they hurt the rest of us

3 - The rich should get government handouts, if any handouts are to be given, because the rich are who built America, and who employ us and were the visionaries who came up with all the things we take for granted.

4 - If the poor starve or die it should be no concern of ours. They chose to be poor, and just suck off the public teat all day.

5 - We need to bring back mandatory sterilization and use it on the poor

6 - The rich need to be venerated as royalty because they are the brain of America. The poor need to be eliminated because they are a virus or cancer, on the body American

7 - Iraq is only bad because we were unsucessful in taking the land and oil from them. They aren't using their resources wisely, so we should kill them all and move alpha males and females onto the land instead.

8 - Israel should be supported because they bully Palestine. Bullies are the visionaries of America. We should only stop support if they show weakness.

9 - The US Anti-Bully campaign will destroy our youth. America needs bullies or everyone will think they can do whatever they want.

10 - That AYN RAND IS A FUCKING PSYCHOPATH!!!!!!

[redqueen]

1. And this idiot doesn't have a job?

Does the irony not penetrate the extra-thick skull or what?

[Taverner]

2. Of course not

Because the guy was not "unemployed" but "self-employed" now. Oh he still collects Unemployment, but he puts all of his energies into "starting his own business"

Denial...denial...denial...

[villager]

14. shouldn't he be "eliminated" for collecting unemployment?

Why doesn't he do the right thing, and eliminate himself?

[chollybocker]

50. I hope you didn't have to pay for his coffee.

Not a good tipper, I bet. ;)

[Joe Chi Minh]

43. Sounds like a certain plumber....

[roguevalley]

85. I would have gut shot him, the fucker.

[Romulox]

3. "The rich should get government handouts, if any handouts are to be given..."

Isn't this the policy of the last two administrations? Old Ayn is in the mainstream, now.

[Taverner]

4. Yep

"Fuck the Poor" as national policy

[pepperbear]

33. ayn rand was not in favor of "handouts" to anyone, but she WAS for total deregulation...

the "lite" version of her "Objectivist" philosophy is that individual achievement and artistic integrity should be revered above all else, and any kind, ANY KIND of intrusion from the government OR EVEN INTRUSION FROM THE PERSON WHO MIGHT BE PAYING FOR YOUR ART is tantamount to totaliterianism. It is an extreme sort of libertarianism (what I would call "neo-liberalism") as seen through the eyes of someone who had actually experienced Soviet-style communism. She was a social liberal, an anti-racist.....and very much into letting the J Paul Gettys of the world do whatever the hell they wanted. Limousine liberals and the Hollywood types adored her.

The problem was her failure to take human nature into account. Consequently, according to her philosophy, altruism became an unfortunate byproduct of the weak welfare state.

[checks-n-balances]

73. Good post, except 'Limousine liberal' is a rightwing slogan

Part of that "two-word culture" (brought to my consciousness by Ed Schultz) manufactured over the past 30 years by rightwing think tanks. For example, how many times did we hear the two-word tag "Brutal Dictator" before the 2003 Iraq invasion?

It may seem like I'm quibbling, but the first people I remember using that term were Phyllis Schlafly and her ilk during the 1970's; I don't remember a Democrat, Liberal, or Progressive type thinker ever using it.

Just sayin'.

[anonymous171]

5. LOL That kind of thinking gave us the Communist revolutions of the early 20th century.

Fuck the poor too much and they will rise up. The Rich should pay more in taxes because the Government is the only thing standing in between them and the pitchforks (to paraphrase Obama.)

[Critters2]

41. Rand's family fled the USSR because of the revolution.

Some people never learn.

[cannabis_flower]

78. Something I always say..

whenever the words "class warfare" comes up is "That is not class warfare, class warfare would be if poor people actually marched down to River Oaks (insert local insanely rich area) with pitchforks and torches and started looting and burning, that would be class warfare"

[gratuitous]

6. And he made you buy his coffee, didn't he?

Just a guess, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

[flakey_foont]

7. Crikey!

That is some serious delusional ranting

[dem629]

8. You have far more patience than I. I couldn't talk to a crazy Randian for five seconds.

Kudos!

[Taverner]

13. Honestly, I thought he was hilarious

He didn't but I did

He was a fucking nutjob

[WonderGrunion]

9. Ayn Rand is Scientology for selfish pricks.

Supported by the selfish delusion that because they "contribute" to society they deserve more from it.

[WeDidIt]

10. There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

-- Kung Fu Monkey

[redqueen]

12. Nice.

:)

[villager]

16. oh, I like that....

n/t

[martymar64]

21. Praise Yog-Sothoth, I read Lord of the Rings

Also tons and tons of Lovecraft.
I never read Ayn Rand, and I never will.

[Cha]

36. I read "Atlas Shrugged" but

it must not of penetrated what it was about..I read it in my 20's.

[kestrel91316]

46. It's incomprehensibly BAD literature - trust me. And I say this as a former

fan of Ayn Rand's and a former Libertarian (30 or so years ago).

[Hekate]

38. Oh that's wonderful!

:rofl:

[BR_Parkway]

61. +1

[mitchum]

67. That is fantastic!

Thank you

[margotb822]

81. Definitely forwarded this to a friend

Hilarious!

[glitch]

11. You had lunch with Ann Coulter?

Strong stomach.

[truedelphi]

80. Thanks for my laugh of the day. n/t

[PA Democrat]

15. According to that idiot's philosophy, you would have been justified in

knocking their teeth out and stealing their wallet. After all, bullies rule!

:sarcasm:

[Taverner]

17. I know, huh!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

20. Plus, if he doesn't work could one conclude that he's one those "parasites"

he complains about? If you take his argument to its logical conclusion then one could in theory do the rest of society a favor and "get rid" of him.

[kooljerk666]

48. Actually you are right..........

Stomp the shit out of them & deride them if they need law enforcement to save their life.

[nichomachus]

18. I only learned one lesson from talking to an Ayn Randian

1. Don't talk to Ayn Randians.

[PatGund]

24. You know....

One of the things that finally caused me to start rethinking the whole Libertarian way of thinking was the sheer number of Ayn Rand worshippers in the LP, and their entire "Screw social liberties, economic liberty uber allies!" attitude.

There are times I jokingly call myself a "recovering Libertarian"..... :-)

[Taverner]

26. Deep down, I am an anarchist

But I don't think now and here is the time for it....Homo Sapien has to evolve a little first...

So I'm a Democrat :)

[nichomachus]

27. The only difference between libertarianism and communism

is that communism at least made sense on paper.

[armyowalgreens]

57. Both are extremely similar on paper. But in reality, they are the exact opposites.

Anarcho-libertarianism is the most extreme form of individualism. Anarcho-communism is the most extreme form of anti-individualism or absolute community.

Both seem to function very well on paper. But in the real world of chaos, both would lead to failure.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

19. Did the guy look like this by any chance?

[The_Commonist]

22. Please forward this...

...to you Randian acquaintance:

[Blue_Tires]

84. lol that never gets old

[pepperbear]

23. one wonders what neil peart ever saw in her and her half baked philososophy. n/t

[Sheltiemama]

25. Oh, dear.

I don't think he's thought this through. If he doesn't have a job, he will end up poor. And according to him, the poor should be eliminated.

Then again, taking him out of the gene pool might not be the worst idea ever.

[loudsue]

28. LOL!!! That Randian is my former business partner!!! I know that dude!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

:spray:

The Randians drink their kool-aid deeply.

[Demoiselle]

29. I recommend a viewing of The Fountainhead...

...based on Ms. Rand's novel of the same name, and quite possibly the silliest movie ever made.
Certainly the silliest Gary Cooper movie ever made. Watch it with friends, and shriek with laughter.
Or not...considering how Ayn Randian our beloved country has become in recent years.

[Taverner]

31. Is that the one where every line of dialogue is a soliloquy ?

[Mari333]

65. LOL its the worst screenplay ever written!

she wrote the screenplay..
the ending is worth the whole thing, as Patricia Neal ascends on a little elevator, her scarf flying in the breeze, to meet Gary Cooper as he stands on the top of his large architectural penis..er...building, as his little woman rises to meet him at the top
i laughed and laughed and laughed.

[mitchum]

68. It is a comedy classic

[phantom power]

30. As DU's resident Ayn Rand Apologist, I declare this fellow didn't understand...

what he was talking about. Ayn Rand didn't really distinguish between Rich and Poor. Her primary distinguisher was something more like Talent versus Mediocrity. And, she had no particular animosity towards the mediocre masses. Her main desire was that the mediocre "not get in the way of the talented." She worshiped Talent, not Wealth.

She was, however, still wrong. The idea that the mediocre were given too much authority over the Talented was mostly a colossal straw man argument.

[juno jones]

51. Thats what I took away from her stuff too.

Horribly written stuff, I pooped out mid-Fountainhead, having worked my way up from Anthem to Atlas Shrugged. I kept reading trying to find out what the hoopla was about.

She had a way of cudgeling a theme unto death...

[Touchdown]

56. Quite ironic... the mediocre "not get in the way of the talented."

Considering that her mediocre writing is still selling better than Hemmingway, Steinbeck, Fitzgerald and Capote. Truly getting in the way.:rofl:

[checks-n-balances]

74. Makes ya wonder what she would've thought of GWB n/t

[w8liftinglady]

82. I am almost ashamed to admit I was a randian Objectivist for some time.

Until the self-serving nature of objectivism became apparent through the effects on my own family,through unemployment,military service,mental illness,public works.Ayn Rand lived in a rarified fishbowl,with few being allowed in it.I look back and find it hard to believe I believe that way.

[Cha]

32. Really? I never even

knew what an Ann Rander believed..wasn't curious enough to look it up..but, from the captions around here I didn't think it would good.

But, this?!

[OHdem10]

34. To Ayn Rand, Altruism is verboten. "The Virtue of Selfishness"

is Randian Bible.

[phantom power]

39. Not exactly so...

She had nothing against charity, but did not feel that it should be mandated. She was of the (incorrect) opinion that govt support of collective welfare projects was a major source of the world's problems.

[LanternWaste]

49. "...the morality of self-sacrifice is the morality of death."

"...the morality of self-sacrifice is the morality of death."
Atlas Shrugged.

Seems to me she had a particular bone to pick with altruism for its own sake.

[phantom power]

66. Here is Rand, explaining her view of charity:

"My views on charity are very simple. I do not consider it a major virtue and, above all, I do not consider it a moral duty. There is nothing wrong in helping other people, if and when they are worthy of the help and you can afford to help them. I regard charity as a marginal issue. What I am fighting is the idea that charity is a moral duty and a primary virtue."

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=faq_index#obj_q7

[armyowalgreens]

55. She was most certainly against charity for charities sake.

She despised personal sacrifice.

[sui generis]

63. correct

but it's also much more nuanced than that. The idea that providing collective welfare would cause some people to stop even trying to be self sufficient was an immaturity in the philosophy. We know from the card game of life that the joker is our very own unpredictability. Rand wanted human nature to be predictable enough that you could easily categorize people as 100% responsible for their own life situation, or else 100% in control of it.

The fact of reality is that we all have free will and building a philosophy on providence, chance and one's uber-alphaness is not remarkably different than building a philosophy on monarchy and divine right.

Nevertheless the principles ARE worth thinking about. We interfere with natural selection when we interfere to help what would ordinarily be bad genetic outcomes to survive and re-integrate into the gene pool. From a social perspective the poor tend to have more children to compensate but that higher birthrate doesn't change with advanced medical care and additional nutrition. There IS a culture of poverty whether anyone wants to believe it or not. Some people get ahead because they're willing to climb over other people's backs to do it - that doesn't mean they "deserve" to be ahead, or the people they have climbed over "deserve" to be behind.

Ayn Rand was an idealist who could have used some basic understanding from Wolfram's cellular automata, math models showing chaotic perturbations, and other demonstrations of equilibria. You cannot have alpha's if everyone is an alpha. Ultimately the idea that the individual is completely responsible for his or herself is a fantastic idea. It means that we rely on contracts, implied and real, for our social interaction, and that defines the terms of trade, for food, for income, for every one of our interactions with each other.

Imagine if you got paid for every hour you work instead of salary for 60 hours a week and occasional weekends. Unfortunately, Ayn Rand never got all the way there - she wanted a more nuanced society but delivered some barbaric ideas - some of them hyperbolic to stimulate discussion, and some of them out of pace with reality. But there are gems in there too.

[mopinko]

35. thom hartmann has one on every monday. great fun.

thom hands him his ass every single monday, but he thinks he won, so he keeps coming back. sorta like a lava lamp, but for your ears.

[Hekate]

37. That "philosophy" is a piece of work, isn't it? I have found discussion impossible...

... with Libertarians.

Hekate

[Canuckistanian]

40. And now, here's "The Fountainhead" in 5 seconds.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8fkdBz2bds

[PeteytehMawnstar]

42. Comment number 30 totally got it,

this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. If anything, he's a bush corporatist. A friend of mine was living with a guy who was a Randian. He had copies of the Objectivist newsletter, and wanted to buy my own old 1960 torn version of Atlas shrugged. I probably could have made a few bucks, but I'm territorial over my books. I never had a crazy conversation with him, but i know he didn't support Bush. I'd be skeptical of people who took their marching orders all from one source. Which is what the asshat in the OP sounds like

[johnaries]

44. He's not a true Randian - they don't believe in taxes at all. nt

[Sydnie]

45. Have they ever heard of Paris Hilton? LOL

6 - The rich need to be venerated as royalty because they are the brain of America. The poor need to be eliminated because they are a virus or cancer, on the body American

[Wednesdays]

47. K&R

:kick:

[Toucano]

52. Most of that sounds like Greenspan.

Who'da thunk it?

[MattSh]

53. And if her so-called philosophy hasn't freaked you out enough yet, read this...

Romancing the Stone-Cold Killer: Ayn Rand and William Hickman

Part One: Ayn Rand's "real man"

Recently I was rereading Scott Ryan's fascinating, albeit highly technical, critique of Ayn Rand's philosophy, Objectivism and the Corruption of Rationality, and getting a lot more out of it the second time, when I came across a fact culled from a posthumous collection of Rand's journal entries.

In her journal circa 1928 Rand quoted the statement, "What is good for me is right," a credo attributed to a prominent figure of the day, William Edward Hickman. Her response was enthusiastic. "The best and strongest expression of a real man's psychology I have heard," she exulted. (Quoted in Ryan, citing Journals of Ayn Rand, pp. 21-22.)

At the time, she was planning a novel that was to be titled The Little Street, the projected hero of which was named Danny Renahan. According to Rand scholar Chris Matthew Sciabarra, she deliberately modeled Renahan - intended to be her first sketch of her ideal man - after this same William Edward Hickman. Renahan, she enthuses in another journal entry, "is born with a wonderful, free, light consciousness -- the absolute lack of social instinct or herd feeling. He does not understand, because he has no organ for understanding, the necessity, meaning, or importance of other people ... Other people do not exist for him and he does not understand why they should." (Journals, pp. 27, 21-22; emphasis hers.)

"A wonderful, free, light consciousness" born of the utter absence of any understanding of "the necessity, meaning, or importance of other people." Obviously, Ayn Rand was most favorably impressed with Mr. Hickman. He was, at least at that stage of Rand's life, her kind of man.

So the question is, who exactly was he?

William Edward Hickman was one of the most famous men in America in 1928. But he came by his fame in a way that perhaps should have given pause to Ayn Rand before she decided that he was a "real man" worthy of enshrinement in her pantheon of fictional heroes.

You see, Hickman was a forger, an armed robber, a child kidnapper, and a multiple murderer.

Other than that, he was probably a swell guy.

And much, much more here... http://michaelprescott.net/hickman.htm

[mitchum]

71. I'm glad to see that someone else knows about that talentless scribbler's hero worship...

of an absolute monster.
"But he's so dreamy!"

[armyowalgreens]

54. If humans were in a state of absolute survival, those conditions would work...

But we are not at the edge of death trying to survive. We are a sprawling society with much prosperity. We can afford to and should care for the needy. The expense of doing so is minimal.

[Longhorn Liberal]

58. Not even in the most dire of survival situations,

whether it be deep inside a tropical rain forest, or the driest desert on Earth, or inside the post-apocalyptic ruins of Los Angeles, would those conditions work.

Those who work together in the harshest environments, who share resources, who help each other, are way more likely to survive than those who only look out for themselves.

[armyowalgreens]

59. The mind defaults to selfish mode in dire situations...

A situation like the one in the book "The Road" is a perfect example. People who have no emotional connection with each other will literally kill one another for resources if that means surviving.

I'm not saying that you can't overcome that instinct. An emotional connection, like love, would "fight" back those urges. I'm just saying that what Rand talked about is very similar to what animals do in the wild. It deals with the primitive functions of instinct.

What Rand didn't calculate for, and what I'm sure she never actually experienced, was true love and compassion. It's the benefit of being conscious. We can love. I don't know what Rand did, but she did not love anyone else but herself. Which is truly tragic.

[Locrian]

60. strange stuff

Its funny - the most intelligent, wise, "talented" people I know always knew that they didnt know everything. They were smart enough to know just how ignorant they were.

The Ayn Rand types seem to be "ignorant of their ignorance" = that fatal flaw of thinking they know everything when then in fact know so very little.

[sui generis]

62. oh jeepers - the stereotypical worst of Ayn Rand

You don't have to swallow the philosophy whole and certainly having it interpreted for you by an unemployed idiot is not a good source of information.

I suggest reading Ayn Rand and deciding for yourself based on first hand knowledge. I'm not a hook line and sinker Randian but there are glimmers of ideas that resonate with me as a pragmatist and individualist.

Ayn Rand never had an opinion on Iraq, for starters.

[agentS]

64. I found the perfect place for a guy like this.

Somalia, which doesn't have a functioning government and operates on barter/anacro-capitalism. Plus the poor die in droves, and it has bullies in the form of pirates.

What are Liber-tard-ians waiting for? This is their Utopia!

Oh I forgot...there are brown people there...

[mitchum]

69. I always call them "Rosenbaumians"...since that was her real last name

Fuck her and her adolescent attempt to reimagine some White Russian heritage
Little Alice: "And I will call myself...Ayn Rand!"

[LeftishBrit]

70. Ugh. I admire your patience in listening to them at all!

BTW, I hadn't heard of Ayn Rand till I joined DU! She just never had the same influence in the UK. Not that we don't have our own brand of RW-libertarians.

[JVS]

72. According to the rationale for #7, something similar should happen to America's upper class...

which through bad banking errors has led the economy into contraction, which is by definition operation below maximum capacity.

[KansDem]

75. And this was all said with a straight face?

I could practice this list for years and still not get through reciting all these lessons without breaking out in hysterical laughter...

[Octafish]

76. Pretty much explains things since November 22, 1963.

It's been pretty much a continuous long slog of war and transfer of wealth from the working and middle classes to the rich and ultra-rich.

At least we got the tee vee, huh.

[checks-n-balances]

77. #s 5-9 are absolutely chilling

and, no doubt, are in operation today by at least some of the stealth Powers That Be who have orchestrated the mess we're in today.

Has this guy figured out how the Poor should be "eliminated"? Perhaps by sterilization or starvation?

You're exactly right about #10!!

BTW, here's a clip of Rand on the Donahue show (I saw the original, circa 1978, and it was my intro to her) as she encounters a former admirer of her philosophy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxHdLjIxMhM

If this clip is any indication, she didn't take it well when she wasn't admired.

[Prophet 451]

79. Glad you noticed #10

Quite apart from being deathly dull, wallbangingly preachy and really badly written, Rand's entire body of work consists of finding a faux-moral cover for naked greed. Gordon Gecko made the exact same argument much quicker.

[KamaAina]

83. 11 - Don't waste your time trying to reason with a Randroid.

Picked up that "Randroid" moniker back in college. :P