To profit from providing health care is immoral, to profit from denying health care is evil.

[hootinholler]

That's pretty much how I see it.

Please feel free to discuss.

-Hoot

[bpcmxr]

1. Amen.

Couldn't have said it better.

[napoleon_in_rags]

18. I could have said it better. I would say "to profit from providing health care is moral"

then agreed with the second part.

[Sub Atomic]

33. Why do you think it's moral to profit from what should be a basic human right?

[napoleon_in_rags]

41. Why do you think its moral to not profit from providing a basic human right?

I'm saying doctors should be rewarded for their work. Good medicine should equal more money, as it does in nations with good healthcare systems like in Europe.

[dflprincess]

51. It isn't the money the doctors are making that's the problem

yes, there are some that gouge their patients or cheat Medicare, but the family practitioners, even the internists aren't building money bins like Scrooge McDuck.

Overall, doctors and nurses working at hospitals or clinics are providing a valuable service and I don't begrudge paying them for their knowledge and expertise (and nurses should be paid more).

The problem is with the MBAs and doctors like Willima McGuire, the former head of United Health Group, who walked off with billions in salary and stock options while he ran UHG. And he made that money for increasing the company's profits and stock price not for contributing to health care. I've always thought that it is almost sinful that McGuire went to medical school. He took up a slot that might have been filled by someone who actually cared about medicine.

[walldude]

39. You do understand what "profit" is right?

You think it's moral to charge people above and beyond the costs of health care so you can make money off of other peoples misfortunes?

The only way health care is going to work in America is to remove the profits. As long as someone is making money off of denying needed care to people then people will not get the care they need.

[napoleon_in_rags]

42. Its moral for hard working doctors to profit.

Should somebody who busts their ass in med school and saves lives get the trip to Cancun? Yep. Should somebody who tricks the system, plays insurance games and overcharges get the trip to Cancun? Nope. Its about pay for real services rendered. Real doctors should get real profits.

[hootinholler]

44. What makes the Doctor more important than the janitor who cleans the hospital?

You are confusing Salary with Profit.

The Janitor is possibly more important in a hospital than the Doctor, but seldom get's the trip to Cancun on their salary.

In any event, I did not say Doctors should not be paid well. I said it is immoral for profit to be made off of the sick.

-Hoot

[napoleon_in_rags]

45. Liability, life saving capabilities....We may be on the same side here.

The doctor has more stress, lives in his hand, etc. the Janitor can come in stoned and get by. There has to be compensation for how much you take on. If you're agreeing that doctors should have higher salaries, we are on the same side its just a matter of words.

[walldude]

52. Doctors pay is not profit. It's operating cost.

And yes they should be very well compensated.

So your answer would be "no I don't know what profit is". ;)

[yodoobo]

54. profit or "operating cost"

Its pretty much the same when you cash the check.

[napoleon_in_rags]

59. If that's my answer, yours should "no, I don't know what good political rhetoric is"

Because "No profit for healthcare providers" is NOT it....If nothing else because there are 5 definitions of the word profit:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profit

[silverweb]

2. Well said.

That's how I see it, too.

[cliffordu]

3. Yep. I wonder if they mimic Tony Soprano when they say

"Well, that cancer, it's a good earner..."

[SammyWinstonJack]

34. I'll bet they do. No profit in the cure, plenty of profit the treatment.

x(

[sniffa]

4. Most Americans are happy with being fucked over and being denied coverage for no good reason

Why sail against the wind?

[saged52]

5. absolutely agree with you -

pretty much said the same thing to my ex best friend who was bitching about the possibility of 'socialized medicine' - while my mother was sick/dieing in the hospital. thank you for having more compassion and clarity than she did.

[hootinholler]

6. It's so simple really. In a way the clarity is elegant.

:hug:

-Hoot

[saged52]

7. ain't it the truth?

eloquently and elegantly said, hoot -
btw - I am a huge Steelers fan!:hug:

[hootinholler]

8. If the Pirates can pull it out the burg could have a threefer.

Lombardi trophy, Stanley cup and a world series.

-Hoot

[saged52]

9. ummm - being from the st. louis area -

I'm still kind of a cardinals fan... but a threefer for the 'burg would be very cool!
not to turn this into a sports thread, tho - hopefully I may borrow your post to share w/others - it's clear enough that the uninformed just may comprehend - and quite profound - thank you!

[hootinholler]

10. I was thinking it might be a nice message for Congress.

Feel free to disseminate.

-Hoot

[notsureyet]

57. sorry abt ur mom but she was in a hospital so...????

I didn't follow how this was a bad thing. I have had several heath issues and as long as my husband is employed we have always been insured. Now, the times he has not we used cobra and usually that was temporary because we found another plan that was cheaper.

I am new to this issue and in my 50 years have never been denied health care or had to pay some huge amount of money for it. So, confused on just who it is thats not covered. Unemployed? college kids? (I can keep my college kids on my plan until they are out of school)

We pay about the same amount of $ for a cell phone and internet service.

Anyway, I am sorry about ur mom but I just think the government shouldn't run health insurance.

Oh, and doctors should be able to make a profit on their services....just like every other profession!

[SeattleGirl]

11. I couldn't agree with you more. I've said for years that allowing

insurance companies to be for-profit, and worse -- publicly traded -- is immoral and unethical to the nth degree.

[deaniac21]

12. Profit sucks.

[azul]

13. Like a mantra, keep saying this over and over until

even the president can get into it and lead the way like a pied piper to national health care.

To put profits ahead of life and health is not something that people would normally do. Some form of greed and heartlessness was allowed th fester and grow in an industry that should be of charity and non-profit exclusively. The private sector ruined it and wasted money and lives, they should not get any second chance to do further damage.

[DavidDvorkin]

14. Nicely put.

[HughMoran]

15. If Republicans really care about money more than life, what's with the "sanctity of life" arguments?

Fuckin' hypocritical ass holes.

[Autonomy]

16. To profit from providing healthcare is immoral?

I agree with the 2nd statement, but the first is seriously problematic. Where would be the incentive to provide healthcare? How many people are there who are willing to work for free? Medical advances would come to a standstill, and in fact regress.

People who do work should be able to profit from it. I think the problem comes in when profit is made from capital alone in a healthcare scenario. That's where the motivation to deny people healthcare comes from. The only entity in healthcare that fits that description are the insurance companies.

[azul]

20. Decent wages for work, sure. But it is plain immoral to get wealthy taking advantage

of sick and dying people's woes.

I know many selfless people in the healthcare field. Their main reward in their work is in helping others. Same for medical research, money is not commonly the main incentive, and should not be a temptation to corrupt the industry. Profits should be poured back into research and treatments until preventable disease is vanquished.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. I've got news for you decent wages are PROFIT.

[hootinholler]

27. The IRS disagres with you

They seem to think that salaries are a cost of doing business and are not profit.

-Hoot

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

48. So we are speaking technically.

I was thinking more of someone asking me if I had profited from providing medical care, of course I have that's one of my jobs.

David

[azul]

29. We are discussing incentives to progress in health care.

Granted, many doctors are overpaid, but many nurses and other HCP are struggling. Decent wage is a living wage that allows a household to raise a family and live a modest lifestyle without going into debt.

Why would any one choose to work in health care if it meant poverty? Oh, yea, religious vows and working for God and for the good of other people -altruism?

[Gormy Cuss]

35. That's incorrect. Wages are a cost item. Decent wages cost more than low wages, but profit

is a different animal altogether. Profit is the remainder after all cost obligations have been met.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

49. I was speaking personally not technically.

[Wednesdays]

17. K&R

:kick:

[Fountain79]

19. As you see profiting from health care is immoral...

You think doctors, nurses etc should be paid minimum wage? Are you on the front lines providing free grants and scholarships for med students instead of them taking on tremendous debt so that they can afford these minimum salary jobs?

[Maru Kitteh]

21. I was kinda wondering about that too. I do NOT want a minimum wage GP, dentist or nurse

no no no

[mike_c]

22. strawman and utter non-problem....

Any health care providers working for minimum wage should organize and fight for better compensation. That certainly applies to many home care providers, nursing home staff, and so on. But it's a relatively minor blip on the health care reform radar at present-- if under-compensation of providers was a significant systemic problem, it would deserve widespread debate and activism. Until then, let's focus on the problems that really exist, like the milking of patients and employers for corporate profit.

[hootinholler]

26. Not at all.

I do however think that a hospital that is run for the benefit of shareholders rather than for the patients should never be.

The straw man the republics have been dragging around is that Dr salaries and unnecessary tests are why health insurance is expensive rather than the insurance companies taking profit.

Salaries are a cost of doing business. While it could be argued a salary is profit, it isn't under the business model perspective.

-Hoot

[Maru Kitteh]

36. Then I'm totally on board. Caveat emptor is fine when getting coverage for your car but it's

working out for crap with human being's lives and bodies. All health insurance companies are by nature primarily concerned with the health of their profits far and above the health of the human beings they serve.

I'm more ambivalent about the issue of R&D and pharmaceutical companies. I know I don't like the way things are here now. I have no doubt most pharmaceutical executives would sell their own children for the right price, but I'm not convinced in any way that removing the profit incentive from these areas is wise either. A worthwhile balance in this matter seems to have been achieved in Europe. I'm inclined to borrow from their success and if possible, build on it.

[WillowTree]

55. ALL insurance companies? Including...

....the not-for-profits and mutual companies, which are owned by the policyholders?

[Maru Kitteh]

58. You mean like Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom?

I know Co-Ops once worked well. I know that I don't know enough about how that arrangement works in a modern financial system to say whether or not I think it's fair.

I know my credit union is "owned" by "customers" just like me! How cozy. I guess I can just walk in and fire the first motherfucker who says I can't have that cute English cottage on 5th avenue.

I know Wal*Mart exploits women, minorities, and the poor in every possible way, but calls it's largely poverty-stricken, female, employees........... "shareholders."

What a cruel fucking joke that is.

[Lars39]

32. That's not profit, that's operating costs and tax write-offs.

[Raejeanowl]

23. I Think You're On The Right Track

How about...

Ungainly profit from providing pharmaceuticals, health care testing and technologies is immoral.
Usurious profit from fraudulently denying health care coverage is evil.

I have no qualms about health care providers earning a decent wage commensurate with their education, experience, and level of responsibility.

[DailyGrind51]

25. I whole-heartedly agree, the way this nation places price tags on everything,

I'm surprised we don't pledge, "...One nation, under gold,..."

[Odin2005]

28. Agree completey. Healthcare should be a right, not a commodity.

[jmondine]

30. Damn straight

That is a wonderful, concise way to put it.

[BigBluenoser]

31. Not arguing, just curious...

How far up the supply chain this goes...

Immoral to profit on gauze, surgical tools, x-ray film, MRI equipment, and all the other direct health care inputs? Immoral to profit on the delivery/trucking/fuel used to deliver these inputs? Immoral to profit on the construction and building of a hospital or health services building/office?

Edit: I don't really know this, but wouldn't most non-institutional Doctors be "profit takers", living on the profits generated out of their corporation/LLC and paying themselves salary from this? And when does their salary level become immoral instead of "fair"?

[whosinpower]

37. There seems to be some confusion on Profit

In my own small business way - profit is what is left after you have paid all your business expenses, materials, rent, merchandise and SALARIES.

In that context - you are absolutely correct - the service of healthcare should NOT be profit driven. That is hard for some americans to swallow - as the drive to find, hold and increase profit seems ingrained into the very culture of what is America. But there is a difference.

Some will argue that profit is what drives innovation, and new health treatments, research and development.....but this is not totally true....health care research and innovation continues in socialized healthcare nations...but here is the kicker....it is not to INCREASE profits....it is to REDUCE costs, and provide better care!!!! See how that works, when every taxpayer has a stake???

Both of your statements ring very true. And in a nation that is one of the wealthiest in the modern world, to have a health care system the way you do....I'm sorry....but it is obscene. All you would have to do to pay for universal healthcare, provided through your tax dollars...is not a tax increase...you just have to cut your defense spending into something that is more in line with what the rest of the worlds nations spend individually. In fact, the money wasted on the two Bush wars could easily have paid for this. It all comes down to where your politicians priorities are....and war is profitable for some.....

[BigBluenoser]

40. There is however a strong relationship between profit earning potential and salary...

In the case of a small corporation.

If I am the sole owner and and active director of BigBluenoser Health Services Inc., I own complete control of the salary/profit relationship. I can have a "unprofitable" (zero or close to zero profit) company and pay myself a high wage or I can have a modest salary and keep my profit as retained earnings depending on my interpretation of "what is best for me". Tax laws will play an important role in my decision - and in most nations, my "profit" will be taxed lower than my "salary".

So if BBHS has a profit potential of $500K per year, and I choose to pay myself $500K per annum for my Good Doctory services am I really more moral than someone who pays themselves $250K per year and stashes $250K in retained earnings?

My analysis is obviously overly simplistic, but it is clear that in the case of concentrated ownership of a private corporation the salary/profit distinction is completely artificial.

[whosinpower]

43. Sure, but

I would also offer that your salary and/or profit within your privately owned corporation is not the primary cause of outrageous escalating high cost of healthcare.

When there are supposed non-profit hospitals that skim off and are actually flush with billions of dollars, and hide that fact by hustling millions of those funds off to the Cayman Islands....this is a problem, not only for the American consumer, but also a disturbing issue that every single taxpayer should be aware of, and it also harms you - because of the perception that applies within your industry. I just read an article here on DU stating that.

http://socialistworker.org/2009/06/17/the-for-profit-non-profits

I find that immoral - yes I do....especially when the taxpayer gives these same non-profits millions in extra funds, when those same corporations enjoy such lush tax write-offs, do not provide what they are supposed to. It is a ripoff. And it gets worse, because the perception then is that healthcare is sooo expensive, you MUST carry insurance. They will point to those very hospitals as evidence to the fact.

I am not in the health industry, but have many friends who are doctors, and I do not begrudge them what they make, because I know for a FACT, how hard they work, how many hours they put in, and how stressful that career can be. But - that is not the problem that faces the healthcare industry. The problem is that you have leaches in the system, that are taking necessary funds away from providing care, blaming it on the high cost of healthcare, and literally stashing millions in island banks. It is a self fulfilling scam, and at the end of it all, you have millions of americans who can no longer afford any health insurance, you have countless stories where insurance rescinds payouts for care, and you, as a taxpayer will have given billions to these non-profit hospitals in tax breaks, and investment funding for what? Because you know that they are not in the business of providing care - they are in the business of profit.....and this is wrong. But, I am not telling you anything that you, as a doctor, already know.

[BigBluenoser]

46. You are correct on all counts...

I'm simply pointing out problems in the OPs and others very generalized statements on profiting from health care delivery throughout this thread.

I think as well, there is a salary threshold where the folks at DU would consider it to be obscene (500K+, 1M+?) and would view it as colloquial "profit"(eering).

Even in nations such as Canada, profit exists in medicine - Optometry & Dentistry are not federally or provincially covered and are private. General Practitioners outside of a hospital are "running a business" = (X # of Patients x Gov. Payout per patient) - Expenses (Labor, utils, rent etc.) Pharmaceutical reps & Med Equipment reps still roam the halls of hospitals & doctor's offices etc.

So my point is not that there is not some truth to what is being responded to, but that it is more of a bumper sticker statement than anything.

FYI, I am not an MD.

Really my response here has nothing to do with your points in your previous post, I just wanted to point out that profit vs. salary is a highly manageable number.

[FiveGoodMen]

38. You can say that again!

[Laelth]

47. k&r n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[Mind_your_head]

50. whoa.......your first 'sentence; is WRONG

You said, "to profit from providing health care is immoral"

That's just f*cked up and WRONG-headed. Nobody is going to 'go along with that;' .....I certainly don't hope that anyone PAYS you for that! :sniff: :sniff:

[yodoobo]

53. So every doctor and nurse is immoral?

How about the janitors at medical schools?

I think you needs some boundaries about such a broadstatement.

[ColbertWatcher]

56. Kick, in too late to rec. n/t