WTF? Really.

[walldude]

You know, I can put up with a lot of shit. Obviously. I have lived through the Bush administration. I have been flamed relentlessly, called all kinds of names, told I was nuts, a loser, a freeper, out of my mind and assorted other things on the wonderful world of DU. I can just roll with it. However to have to sit here and read about what an asshole John Lennon was is where I draw the fucking line.

Yes the man beat his wife. Admitted it in a song. Also admitted what an asshole he was for doing it and did his best to make up for it. Wow he's human.

I have a question for all the people who have a problem with John. How much love, light, joy and beauty have you contributed to the world?
John never asked for anything from me, yet he brought love, light, beauty, joy and a new respect for music into my life. Into my life and the lives of millions of others, for generations upon generations. And will continue to do so for generations to come. But no, that's not enough for some armchair political hacks. Bringing more joy to the world than any other 10 million people put together isn't enough for some, they feel a need to piss on John's grave, makes them feel like they are doing something cool.

Well I post this for John Lennon, it probably doesn't fully adhere to DU's rules and probably doesn't belong in GD but in the rebellious spirit of John Lennon I say fuck it. John, may your light and love and music continue to bring joy to millions more for generations to come.

[YOY]

1. You'll find people who think FDR was a cretin here.

Basically citing the Japanese American interment as their sole reason.

It's like refusing to drink from an ocean of Guinness because of a floating turd far away.

[petronius]

35. That has got to be the oddest analogy I have ever read

:rofl:

But overall I agree with you - I don't care one way or another about Lennon, but clinging to a single point to trash someone and refusing to acknowledge anything positive is small-minded (even if that single point is a pretty substantial flaw)...

[intheflow]

39. Or people who dismiss Jefferson out of hand

because of Sally Hemmings and the other slaves he kept. :eyes: Yeah, not good, but judging the man solely on this against everything else he did? People are more complex than that. Except people who need to break things down into either/or scenarios so they can wrap their tiny minds around something.

[Captain Hilts]

40. Well, FDR was an insensitive shit in a lot of ways. Even Eleanor admitted that was one

of the reasons he was a great president. He stuck his neck out for no one. For no policy.

[YOY]

77. But was he really a Horrible president and a horrible human being???

n/t

[Captain Hilts]

78. Certainly not. nt

[billyoc]

2. K&R, although I was never really a fan, the guy seemed righteous.

[Orsino]

3. Well, genius and asshole are not mutually exclusive...

...and some of the best people seem to be keenly aware of just how flawed they are.

I'd say that if we're gonna take Lennon to task for domestic violence, we should also take into account his other acts with much greater influence.

[TokenQueer]

4. The newspaper said...

..."she's gone to his head, they look just like two gurus in drag". Christ, you know it ain't easy. You know how hard it can be. The way things are going, they're gonna crucify me.

[Jeroen]

5. Come together!

The Beatles - Come Together
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vAqekT-GuA



:headbang:

[H2O Man]

6. My guess would be

that the people in question are not here to contribute to DU in a meaningful way.

[H2O Man]

11. Having located

and read the thread in question, I fully agree with myself.

[walldude]

12. LOL... now that was funny...

[polmaven]

65. My guess is

that the people in question were there to bolster claims that MJ was just sooooo much better in all wasy than John Lennon, and therefore The Beatles, that no one coule EVER claim he was not the best human being ever to walk the face of the earth.

[H2O Man]

79. That could be.

Interest thought .... one that I didn't even think of before reading your post.

There are probably some people who would do that, just as some Lennonites might do the reverse. Both of these positions are lacking in any meaningful contribution to a discussion.

I also think that there are some turds that we see floating by in the river of life, that simply take pleasure in polluting the environment here. Anyone who can only focus on John Lennon's bad qualities, and miss his evolution as a human being, misses the point. It's like saying that Malcolm X was a terrible person, because he was a criminal in his youth.

[cbdo2007]

7. You think that's bad...you should see all the sh*t they say about Jesus on here!!!

[ret5hd]

13. Well, at least John was real.

[Soylent Brice]

56. !!!!!!!!!

:spray:

[rd_kent]

36. Oh yeah, its real bad stuff, too

Why dont you come on back to the R&T forum. I'd like to chat. :evilgrin:

[DoBotherMe]

8. K&R for John

George, Paul, and Ringo ... who have made the world tolerable for the past 50 years! Dana ; )

[Echo In Light]

9. K&R

[Rex]

10. John Lennon was a genius.

He left the world far to young.

[pipi_k]

14. Why does what someone else thinks matter?

Really.

If John Lennon and/or his music brought joy and beauty to your world, then isn't that all that should matter?

People out there (and here) are going to have issues with him over the way he treated his wife and son. There are women who probably have been similarly treated. Kids who have been abused. I think they have a right to their feelings if they want to think John Lennon is the biggest piece of shit to ever walk the earth.

Just be thankful for what he gave to you and let others feel what they're going to. It's a whole lot easier that way...

[walldude]

16. Well using your logic then I should not be on DU at all.

If no one's opinions matter then why participate on a message board? The whole point of this place is to share your opinion. This was mine.

[pipi_k]

43. Nobody said you can't share your opinion

so there's no need to be defensive.

What I am saying is that if you're allowing what other people say or think to ruin your day, then you're wasting a lot of precious time and energy.

Really...have your opinion. Express your opinion. Go wild.

But you seem to be allowing what others think about John Lennon to affect your peace of mind.

Maybe it's just me, but what, really, does it matter on a larger scale? Or in a different perspective?

If some horrible tragedy happened to you or a loved one today, would John Lennon's reputation matter at all?

Perspective....

:shrug:

[freebrew]

59. And admit it...

that's the way John would want it.

But it pisses me off as well when I hear someone that didn't even experience Lennon's work to trash him because it's cool.
Remembering the day he was shot, the entire world was in shock(except maybe GHW and Nixon).
Articles were written and read throughout the world in magazines and papers you would not expect.
He was loved throughout the world, regardless of naysayers, he was more popular than Jesus.

[Javaman]

15. Good thing you don't get pissed about things that actually concern our nation

:eyes:

more deification.

[walldude]

19. Right, because there is no way I could care about more than one thing

Obviously I am so stupid that there is only room in my brain to be angry about one thing so I decided that John Lennon was it. I have spent my entire 45 years on this planet doing nothing but extolling the virtues of John Lennon.

I bow to your moral and intellectual superiority. Ass.

[Javaman]

21. LOL That's Mr. Ass, to you! LOL

Nice to know you have only a one track mind.
LOL

All bow before me, anyway, you are no different. :)

have a smashing day!

[walldude]

22. My bad... Mr Ass.

You enjoy your day of self righteousness and moral superiority while I go listen to the Beatles and enjoy my life of useless thoughts and inane commentary. BTW I have a friend that specializes in removing bugs from peoples asses. I can probably get you a deal ;)

[Javaman]

25. Thank you for correcting yourself.

As for my self righteousness and moral superiority, I don't see it that way, I just look at everyone else as being beneath me. :) It's just easier.

Enjoy your Beetles as I have also enjoyed them myself in the past.

I just choose not to deify anything or anyone. It's so much wasted energy.

And since you have a friend that removes bugs from peoples asses, I guess you know of his work first hand.

Tootles.

[walldude]

26. "I just choose not to deify anything or anyone."

Well that's what you get for making assumptions. I don't deify anyone either. If someone says Obama is an ass for doing such and such am I deifying him because I choose to stick up for him and list his accomplishments? No. Same for John Lennon.
You came into this thread and bitched at me about not being angry about "important things". I notice you haven't made similar comments in the 5 legged dog thread, the Tyler Perry thread, the Joe Jackson thread, the Bikini Car Wash thread. Is it John Lennon, is it me or did you just need someone to vent on?

[Javaman]

27. I choose not to deify

because I'm the deity. :)

And to answer your question, everyone needs a hobby. :)

check my profile and you will understand.

LOL

Cheers.

[LanternWaste]

63. And self-validating

"I just look at everyone else as being beneath me. :) It's just easier..."

And self-validating. And typical of many, many ordinary people.

And I suppose in many cases, one man's concern for a person is another man's deification-- I imagine we all interpret and infer both the intent and the languages of others to better validate our own self-perceptions.

[spanone]

17. that thread pissed me off too.

'lennon was an asshole'

'lennon beat his wife'

utter fucking horseshit

[rug]

18. At least he didn't write Yesterday.

[H2O Man]

23. He recorded

a wonderful mini-version of it, though. Better than the original.

[shanine]

20. Thanks walldude

You know, I can put up with a lot of shit. Obviously. I have lived through the Bush administration. I have been flamed relentlessly, called all kinds of names, told I was nuts, a loser, a freeper, out of my mind and assorted other things on the wonderful world of DU. I can just roll with it. However to have to sit here and read about what an asshole John Lennon was is where I draw the fucking line.

That's how I felt reading it too. I had to hide the thread.

[Deep13]

24. Wow! Imagine that!

The man was a visionary and was nearly banned for the USA because of it.

[Rebubula]

28. Julius Ceasar

The evil that men do lives on after them; the good is oft interred with their bones - so let it be with Lennon.

Everyone is human...some of the things that Kennedy and King did in their personal lives would seem repugnant without the amazingly good things that they did to offset the bad.

As my Grandfather always said 'Man is no damn good'

[GeorgeGist]

29. I'm grateful that John Lennon remains in the hands of Destiny ...

inspite of the grouches who think they know better.

[Chorophyll]

30. If I've learned anything from discussion boards,

it's this: never admit you're in awe of anyone, never admit you admire anyone, and never show the slightest enthusiasm for anything. Because the minute you do, someone will come along and turn it to shit for you.

I know whereof I speak, being a fan of both John Lennon... and Bono. :)

[TokenQueer]

31. Lol.

:thumbsup:

[pipi_k]

45. Actually, deification isn't the problem...

I mean, if people want to call it deification...

I don't personally care if someone wants to deify or admire or be in awe of something or someone.

What does bother me is when people who have all this admiration or awe for something or someone get all frothing at the mouth at people who don't share their feelings.


I never saw the appeal of John Lennon. I liked George Harrison a whole lot better, but I wouldn't put down anyone who did admire John Lennon. In the same vein, I really liked Michael Jackson and felt horribly sorry for him.

Some people thought he was a scum sucking child molester. Whatever...

My "defending" him wasn't...and isn't...going to change their minds.

Why would anyone want to waste their time trying to "defend" someone who, at this point, is beyond defending? And if alive, I'm sure John Lennon could probably defend himself quite well.

Doesn't make sense to me, but people can spend their time doing whatever they want to. They just shouldn't expect others to share their level of awe or admiration, that's all.

:shrug:

[Chorophyll]

62. I would never expect anyone else to share my level of blah blah blah.

But it sucks to casually mention that you admire someone and then have one of these semi-professional misery-makers that haunt the internet step in and trash that person just for fun. And trash you while they're at it.

I'm not a big fan of Michael Jackson, so I just didn't comment in any of those threads. It was easy.

[walldude]

48. Well, that says more about their character than mine... n/t

[Mythsaje]

32. So he was human...

Big deal.

He helped change the world.

Not happy about the abuse thing, and how he blew off his son, but that's what being human's about. Everyone has their own mistakes to make.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

33. I've been listening to the "John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band" album a lot lately.

Brilliant piece of work.

[Captain Hilts]

42. The Live Peace in Toronto stadium was torn down and replaced. Damn. nt

[upi402]

34. Imagine

and no religion too

[JVS]

37. Shit fuck damn! I wish I had remembered his dark side when a few boomers decided to bash the shit..

out of Michael Jackson and were shitting all over his grave!

What a missed opportunity!
:banghead:

[troubledamerican]

38. At least Lennon didn't molest children.

[Captain Hilts]

41. Type A's make history and art and they're high octane folks. Lennon was. He's my favorite

Beatle.

Doesn't mean I want to marry him or be his buddy. He was one of the greats.

I read a book that cited Lennon, Churchill and Eleanor Roosevelt as folks that went through a lot of shit until they found their calling, as it were, then became great folks. Indeed.

[MellowDem]

44. You might want to talk to the significant number of people...

saying that Michael Vick should not be allowed to play football again after serving his time for dogfighting. I guess they would also think that John Lennon should have been jailed for his domestic abuse and never should have been picked up by a record company again.

[closeupready]

46. Until recently, I was unaware that he was physically abusive. Now that I know, I think less of him.

I never thought much of him either way, as he was part of a time that preceded my childhood, but I can't say I think too highly of people who are abusive, and I certainly don't look to them as worthy of respect.

That said, if his works bring you happiness, enjoy. :) But don't diminish the misery he personally brought to those in his life who may have loved him at some point.

[spanone]

47. please include link that let's you KNOW that mr lennon was physically abusive.

thank you

[closeupready]

49. The info is in the opening post, that (apparently) Lennon admitted he beat his wife.

I'm responding to that statement. And similar claims made elsewhere here on DU. But let me check wiki and/or google for you and post back here.

[spanone]

50. i've checked and find nothing.

[closeupready]

52. there's this

http://beatle.wordpress.com/2007/01/14/lennon-the-wife-beater/

To the threadstarter, if he/she is reading this: why - if you are a fan - do you claim that 'yes, he was a wifebeater'? Do you know this personally or is this info you can substantiate with some kind of link?

[walldude]

57. Well if you would bother to listen to John Lennon he would tell you himself

I am a huge fan of John's. And yes he admitted he beat his wife, in interviews and in song. The next post down has the lyrics. John admitted that he used to hit his wife, when he started taking LSD he realized he was being a total asshole and got his shit together.

Your question about why is a little bizarre. Just because I am a fan doesn't mean I would deny the truth.

[redqueen]

60. "when he started taking LSD ...

he realized he was being a total asshole and got his shit together"

Hmm. Interesting.

[walldude]

67. It's happened to many people.... Instant Karma.

[walldude]

68. It's happened to many people.... Instant Karma.

[closeupready]

61. I question why not in terms of "why on earth would you publicize this" but

"why do you claim this" as in "what facts (which are uncommonly known) support your statement that he was a wifebeater?" since, in responding to that claim in the opening post (which I took as an article of faith), someone else called me out on it.

[walldude]

69. The fact that John admitted it is why I post it as fact.

Not sure how many times I have to print his own words till they sink in.

[closeupready]

70. Was HG Wells the first man on the moon?

Since he was the first to write about it, and obviously, every written work is autobiographical, correct?

In other words, there is absolutely no reason to believe that every song Lennon wrote was autobiographical, let alone "Getting Better".

[walldude]

51. In John's own words:

"I used to cruel to my woman
I beat her and kept her apart
from the things that she loved

Man it was mean but I'm changing my scene
and I'm doing the best that I can"

Getting Better- Lennon/Mcartney



I can't believe this thread is still active...

[spanone]

53. he's an artist, that is hardly an admission of wife beating. maybe mccartney wrote that?

i can't believe people would accept this as fact that he beat his wife

[walldude]

54. No it was Lennon and he has talked about it in the past

Look I'm the guy defending Lennon, all this shows is he was as flawed as the rest of us, he admitted his mistake and did his best to make up for it.


And by the way when you see a Lennon/McCartney composition you can bet that Paul was writing the happy stuff while Lennon was the angry one. Getting Better is the perfect example of their push/pull songwriting.

McCartney "It's getting better all the time"
Lennon "Can't get much worse".

[redqueen]

55. His ex-wife said he hit her after he saw her with another man.

Which is rich, considering he was a cheater.

[mulsh]

82. Um - Paul wrote and sang most of It's Getting Better

I haven't played "what the hell do you think they mean" with a Beatles song since the band was still together.
have you (most posters here) ever actually listened to the song? In most Lennon/McCarney songs the guy who wrote the lines sang them. I've read most of Lennon's interviews and don't recall him owning that particular bit of fluff from Sgt Pepper. In later interviews he owned up to being a violent asshole, especially in his younger days. He also talked about how as he got older he changed. What a surprise.
Since when should anything a songwriter, poet or any writer to be taken as the literal truth?

[Mopar151]

58. Anybody who scared Nixon

and Hoover that much is all right by me!

And John Lennon never said he was perfect, or an example - only that he was trying..... "We're only tryin' to get us some peace!"

[madmom]

64. But but he wasn't Michael Jackson!!!!!!

[graywarrior]

66. Two people never to dis in my presence: Dylan and Lennon.

[closeupready]

71. Oh, Dylan's another one with more than a few flaws.

I was acquainted with one of his girlfriends. She had stories, let me tell you. Or maybe I'd better not.

[graywarrior]

72. I talked to a musician I met in Portland who knew about his freakiness.

and delighted in telling me. I could not believe my ears.

[closeupready]

74. Oh, yeah.

I mean, obviously, all I have to go on is trusting that she was honest with me, and I had no reason to doubt that she was. It was a trip coming to grips with the idea that Dylan shares a lot more in common with Paul McCartney in terms of commercial instincts than is popularly understood.

But again, I'm not really interested in demystifying well-loved cultural icons, particularly ones on the left, beyond discussing public news stories and items. So, carry on. :)

[graywarrior]

75. Last time we talked, he told me to keep my mouth shut.

[Blue_Tires]

73. kick

[Kid Dynamite]

76. Who cares who liked him and who didn't?

From a political perspective, which is what DU is here to talk about, he offered what? Navel-gazing? Platitudes? Feel-goodism?

[hiphopnation]

83. exactly

and from a musical perspective ... MEH!

sure, listening to Walrus and Lucy In the Skies while tripping on acid in the 9th grade was fun. Now it just sounds silly to me. And when he finally cast off the oppressive chains of the beatles, his solo stuff was pretty damn lackluster.

he co-opted music from black american musicians and made it more palatable for us at the time, only to find out the black musicians were doing it better all along. i bet he'd agree...

[hiphopnation]

80. gimme an f-in break

you need a hobby

[masuki bance]

81. John Lennon being called an asshole is worse than 8 yrs of b*sh?

f*ck that noise.