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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:06 PM
Original message
Top story of the day - We did this.


We come in peace.


And it was for lies. They've all been lies. All the reasons this happened, and we started it, and we continue it, were lies. Lies.
How do you just forget something like that? How do you just pretend it didn't happen? There is no closure without justice.

And the talk is now that Iraq needs to step up and get the messy result of our actions under control, 'cuz we won't be there to help them forever.

Nope. The oil will run out eventually, and we'll leave.

And now, Dave with the weather...
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Is it a war for oil?
A freeper on a different discussion forum seemed... outraged... that the oil of Iraq was going to China.

In short, it added a new perspective that throws old ideas out the proverbial window.

Maybe I'm missing something here. :shrug:
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I heard that Iraq's oil will go to several countries, including China, but NOT the US.

What kind of oilmen invade a country, destroy much of it and its people, and then let the oil get away?

I don't get it.
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kcass1954 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. It's not about who owns the oil, but who controls the oil. n/t
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rhiannon55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Are the oil companies selling it to China? Why
is it going to China? I don't understand.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Better long term prospects. Look at that industrial base.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. I heard that Iraq's oil will go to several countries, including China, but NOT the US.

What kind of oilmen invade a country, destroy much of it and its people, and then let the oil get away?

I don't get it.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. You are not alone- many people do not "get it." China, as the new global economic super power...
Will be able to pay the most.
The oil corporatists don't care about the people in America-
The oil will go to the highest bidder.
And it wont be America.

BHN
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. it will drive up the price here at home
so, exxonmobil will get more profits when we're paying $4 or $5/gallon for gas
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. Where does the oil from the Alaska pipeline go? Not to the lower 48, does it?
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. What I hear about Alaska oilis that it goes to Japan n/t
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. seems to be lots of reasons. PNACs plan for the ME. Returning
Iraqi oil trading to the USD instead of the Euro (our dollar is based on oil since leaving the gold standard; when folks stop using it to trade for oil, that's bad news for us). We switched Iraq back to the dollar about day we toppled the saddam statue. Who else has switched to the euro? Libya, Syria, and Iran. Hmmmmmm, and we hate all of them. Wonder why.

Other reasons include showing up daddy. Avenging daddy. Trying to force the return of Christ. Just doing what Israel tells us to. Your guess is as good as mine. All I know is that whatever reason they're TELLING us it was for---that ain't the truth.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Heart of Darkness.
Alas, we have become what we both hate and fear, "The horror, the horror." :cry: :nuke: :cry:

This must END ... no more killing in our name. :grr:
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Monkeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. They cannot use my name to kill Bring Them Home Now
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. "Shock and Awe" was nothing more nor less than the
Nazi's old tactic of "Blitzkrieg." Recommended #1
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warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. An email chat with Mr. Shock and Awe
The guy who invented shock and awe is named Harlan Ullman. I found him through Google. He's another right wing think tank "strategist" and "military expert" who advises the pentagon on how best to kill people at the least cost to taxpayers.

Following is an email conversation I had with him just before the Iraq invasion began:

ME:

Mr. Ullman -- Shock and awe -- along with loathing, disgust and
a barely suppressed gag reflex -- pretty well characterize my response to
your "little Hiroshima" plan for Baghdad.

They don't hate us for our freedoms, Mr. Ullman. Nor do they hate us
because we can buy houses.

They hate us because all sane people detest murderous imperialists
engaged in cynical resource grabs. They hate us because we have
demons in our midst who advocate unleashing the fires of hell on
civilian populations, then dismissing the charred results as "collateral damage."

Not in my name, Mr. Ullman.

xxxxxxxxxxx


Ullman:

Sadly, you miss understand the point. Shock and awe is meant to get the
enemy to quit as quickly and cheaply as possible not target civilians.
there is a moral imperative on our part to use our force to minimize
casualties and damage all around.

Assuming you oppose the war and it still comes, what is your
alternative to possible tens of thousands of civilian casualties if we
go to battle the old way?


Me:

Mr. Ullman -- I fail to see how lobbing between 600 and 800 cruise
missiles into a city of about 5 million people over a two-day period
creates a credible "alternative to possible tens of thousands of
civilian casualties" -- unless, of course, your objective is to kill
far more than tens of thousands. In that case, shock and awe seems
just the ticket.

And in case these Iraqi civilians are just statistics to you, here's
what some of them look like:

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/iraqkids.html


XXxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Ullman:

No one is talking about lobbing hundreds of bombs profligately into a city. If we do, then that will be a huge and costly error. However what I don't understand is how things have been so turned around. why is GW Bush cast as the villain and the real thug, Saddam, seen as the victim?


Me:

On the contrary, every news reference to shock and awe I've seen has included some sort of dire threat to Baghdad itself. Note this line from a CBS News story from Friday, January 24th:

"There will not be a safe place in Baghdad," said one Pentagon official who has been briefed on the plan.

The full story is here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/24/eveningnews/main537928.shtml

And I've heard similar threats from administration officials on NPR, PBS and ABC.

As to the Bush/Saddam/thuggery issue . . That's a false dichotomy. Just because I see Bush as a murderous thug with designs on Iraqi oil doesn't mean I support Hussein, yet another murderous thug.

As far as I'm concerned, an imperial presidency and an autocratic dictatorship have far too much in common. A pox on both houses.

I could enumerate my personal list of Bush administration offenses against the Constitution -- and against sanity in general -- but they've been done to death by others already.

In closing, I hope your strategy fails miserably, that the invasion fails, that Bush's twin objectives of projecting US military might into the region while grabbing Iraqi resources fails, that the US military presence fails and is forced to leave the country without securing any oil fields, and that you're eventually held up as an icon of all that's wrong, insane or both about the US policy of preemptive war.

Now don't bother me again.


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
And here's his bio:


Harlan  Ullman, PhD
Creator of Shock & Awe Strategy, 10 Steps to Defeat Global Terror

A no-nonsense adviser to the most powerful government and business leaders, Harlan Ullman explains why the war on terror is different than prior threats to the U.S. and how politicians and military experts need to change their thinking and behavior to ensure stability. Using his unique combination of experience—from combat veteran and Pentagon adviser to Harvard economics Ph.D. and businessman—Ullman untangles the new and future challenges facing big business to those encumbering small entrepreneurs caused by events on the world stage.

Full bio here:

http://www.eaglestalent.com/speaker-bureau,1954,presenter,Harlan-Ullman,speaker.asp?source=google


Just another overly degreed war monger getting paid by our taxes to devise better, faster and cheaper ways to murder men, women and children.


wp
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Good for you! And thank you for sharing your exchange with Mr. Ullman.
Edited on Wed Apr-11-07 12:44 PM by Benhurst
:applause:
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. Is that the Baghdad Hilton in the foreground?
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. How's it feel to destroy a nation in the name of short term oil gains?
Edited on Tue Apr-10-07 11:03 PM by Lone_Star_Dem
Heartbreakingly painful from this perspective.
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. How's it feel to DIE for lies and short term oil gains, or less?
How does one's family feel?
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Excellent question
One every American should be asking.
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CrazyOrangeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-10-07 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. No more blitzkrieg in our name.
kick
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mahina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
16. And we sat and watched and cried.
What a bitter sorrow, to know we were killing some innocents. My taxes, my country. My deep shame, and my commitment to change.
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rhiannon55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I watched in horror that terrible night
and couldn't stop crying. How could anyone see that and NOT think about all the innocent people being blown to bits beneath all the "pretty fireworks"? How could anyone see that and still think of us as the "good guys"? :cry:
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tiptoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
17. *Co has to pay for its war crimes. nt
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mahina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Thanks for the Truth is All info. He was (is?) my hero.
What can we do now to prevent a repeat? PM me if you wish. Mahalo!
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-11-07 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
25. Thank you for posting that, Skip. I watched in horror as it happened.
I was "shocked", to the depths of my soul, that this could ever happen at the hands of my country.

Like most Democrats and liberals, I'm deeply patriotic, and always intended to hold my country to the highest standards of morality, fairness and justice -- you know, the things we founded this country for, and for all the reasons we hated tyranny.

On that night in 2003, when our republican-owned government bombed an entire city full of regular people (we did NOT bomb "an army"), I fell into the deepest despair. And as long as we continue this unjustified, illegitimate war, I continue to feel as betrayed by the republicans as by any of the worst enemies this country has ever known.

This picture you posted, should be on every billboard in this country throughout the election season of 2008. With your same words: "We Did This. And it was for LIES". And I would add to the bottom of the billboard: "Who among you can trust the republicans with the leadership of our government?"

I'd like to see billboards like every couple of miles across this great nation, and on the sides of busses. It's pure horror to anyone who has a heart and a soul.

:kick::kick::kick: & Rec & Bookmarked
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