Recovery my ass

[AllentownJake]

First of all saying we are in a depression is not a slur against President Obama. I worked 8 months for free for the man, registered 100s of voters, knocked on thousands of doors, and trained 100s of volunteers in the effort to make him President of the United States. I gave him $1000 of my own money. He did not cause this mess. 30 years of awful economic policy created by the conservative movement caused this mess.


1) From anecdotal evidence and from my own experience banks are becoming nastier in their collection efforts. There is little being done to keep people in their homes who can't afford to pay their mortgages. Banks are betting against a recovery and trying to get their hands on as many assets as they can. Banks for the most part aren't investing in new businesses.

2) The bailout money was not used in new lending to start-up businesses. It was used to re-open the casino and continue to pay outrageous bonuses. Trading is what most of these "banks" are engaged in right now. Want to know why gas continues to fluctuate ridiculously. Goldman Sachs and Citigroup.

3) The stimulus bill had some and I emphasize the word some economic stimulus in it. Most of the bill however was to manage the depression in the short term. (Unemployment, Medicaid, state assistance, etc). Shovel Ready projects means projects that the states had already planned and might have cut with their own budget crisis. The stimulus bill was more of a keep the system functioning till we can figure out what to do next. It is doing its job but calling the stimulus bill a stimulus bill is like calling the Patriot Act a patriotic bill.

4) A service based economy is bullshit. It only works on debt and trade deficits. Neither which are sustainable. Our economic system in the United States resembles a ponzi scheme that is dependent on our trading partners lending us back the money we spend in order to keep the system going.

5) Our national debt including consumer debt is now approaching 100% of GDP. This is unsustainable. Eventually that chicken is going to come home to roost.

6) Commercial Real Estate continues to be vacated.

7) Our trade policies continue to be suicidal. We allow free trade with nations that do not share our values. We have two options either abandon our values on safe working conditions, workers rights and the environment or increase our tariffs to level the playing field.

8) The healthcare bill will not go as far as it needs to and we will still be stuck with a system where administrative and executive pay bleeds money needlessly from the system. Our system of employer provided healthcare makes us less competitive. We have a system that amounts to economic serfdom and health care is a giant part of that.

9) The States are on the verge of bankruptcy. They have declining revenues and increasing cost from their required entitlement benefits. Add into this the disaster that is going to hit with the declining revenues for Social Security and Medicare taxes and an aging population on the federal level.

10) We are currently involved in two wars. We are ramping down on the one but ramping up in the other. The wars are not something our economy can afford right now. Every $ spent on these wars is a $ not spent here at home to rebuild our economy. The military industrial complex has bankrupted our nation.


This is the reality we are in. Our economy was unsustainable. We need a new NEW DEAL to restore America to the once great economic powerhouse it was. Trying to bring back the old system will only result in a temporary recovery followed by a worse depression 3-5 years down the line.

Saying that we are in a recovery means for the above problems means the junkie just found a new source to fuel its addiction. The economic system of the past 30 years was what George H.W. Bush correctly called "voodoo economics." Time for our nation to return to what it once was.

[Autumn]

1. Indeed

all too true. k/r

[AllentownJake]

2. I have to post this in GD

because in GD Presidential I'd get 50 post accusing me of being a traitor.

[Autumn]

3. A real shame isn't it ?

I'm sure that you will probably get some of it in this forum too. It's the content.:-(

[AllentownJake]

4. Everyone wants sunshine, rainbows, and unicorns

Here is what I know if you ignore problems they get bigger. We've been ignoring problems for 30 years.

[stray cat]

12. and they naively expect it instantaneously without pain or sacrifice

[AllentownJake]

14. Sacrifice is a dirty word in American politics

We have 3 generations right now that really haven't had to sacrifice much.

[defendandprotect]

117. Americans certainly have sacrificed -- !!!!

While I totally agree with your thread -- it is elites who have not sacrified . ..

while Americans certainly have sacrificed --

We still have Reagan and Bush homeless with us --

We've had forced retirements since the early 1960's . . .

we've had loss of pensions - state and individual --

We've had very long term unemployment for decades --

we have 25% of our children living in poverty!

And accompanying it all, we had Clinton overturning 60 years of Welfare

guarantees . . . sending mothers and the ill to work in sewers in NYC for $5 hour

leaving young children without day care!

What about those who have been losing them homes over the last year and more with

still many more losses to come?

What about our soldiers who have been completely betrayed from Gulf War I insanity

to our second attack on Iraq and Afghanistan, as well???

Illnesses not attended to properly - government responsibility denied --

Efforts to avoid paying appropriate compensation to our Veterans --

Cuts in VA benefits --

And all for lies . . . !!!

How can you possibly say Americans haven't suffered?

What you're saying is, you're not aware of it.


And we have the Democrats having kept these Treasury-busting wars going for past 2.5 years!!

Nor have I heard a word from Obama and the Dems about RE-REGULATING capitalism . . .

a system we need to junk.

Where is Dem talk about our homeless, our impoverished children??

Did I miss something? All I've heard about is rescuing capitalism from itself!


:crazy:

[AllentownJake]

123. I stand corrected

:dunce:

The dunce hat is for me

[defendandprotect]

146. Okay . . .

you're sweet to say so --

:loveya:

Did like the post!

And "Recovery my ass" needed to be said -- clearly!!!

Thank you!!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

160. I wish I could K&R your post -

you summed it up perfectly.

Thank you..............

[defendandprotect]

163. k i c k

[nc4bo]

84. You are no traitor. nt

[KakistocracyHater]

257. where are the 'buy war bonds'? It helped in the 1940s.........oh Bush said

to go shopping....

[Warpy]

5. Until the systemic problems are addressed, there will be

no real recovery. There might be brief boom and bust cycles at the top that continue to bleed money from the middle class as the little people try to get in on the boom just as the big money is pulling out and are left holding an empty bag, but that's the extent of the recovery.

The systemic problems are an overly deregulated financial industry, wealth concentration at the top, depressed pay for disappearing jobs at the bottom, and the collapse of the debt based consumer economy.

As long as money is concentrated at the top, the top will be manipulating markets to create speculative bubbles to increase their wealth at the expense of the people who invest just a little too late. That money will not be invested in startups and it certainly won't be invested in the US. It's a numbers game and they want those numbers to go up, risk free.

Risk avoidance has also infected the financial markets, leading to deregulation and creating a derivatives nightmare. Different financial services were kept separate from each other for a very good reason. Removing those barriers just screams conflict of interest.

One wonders just how long it will take to dawn on captains of industry that all the bailouts in the world won't allow them to stay in business if there are no customers able to buy their goods and services. With good jobs disappearing or gone and overseas workers hired to fill the few that remain as cheaply as possible, there are few people here willing to spend much of anything these days.

Living large on plastic is just never coming back, folks, and you can expect banks to keep raising fees and interest as they grab every dime they can to repay the TARP money and keep the government out of their business.

You're correct that we need a New Deal once again, but things will have to get desperate enough for Congress to be terrified of the electorate for a return to sanity.

Until then, they're trying to shore up that house of cards with toothpicks. The bottom cards have already collapsed.

[AllentownJake]

18. There are few patriots in congress right now

We have a lot of political animals that will do what is necessary to get through the next election cycle. The populace is largely to blame.

[Warpy]

34. The populace does its best

when confronted by two candidates who have both been vetted by the PTB and found to be compliant.

[BumRushDaShow]

56. I would love to rec this post!

This is it in a nutshell. :applause:

Phil Gramm's gutting of Glass-Steagall was a major contributer to reproducing the conditions of 1929. I keep yelling that they need to take the text of Glass-Steagall, update it a bit for modern times, and insert it wholesale, back into law via some bill (perhaps an Omnibus appropriation bill or something).

[defendandprotect]

119. Absolutely . . . where is talk of re-regulation . . . of Glass-Steagall, for one????

All we've gotten from Dems is 2.5 years of Treasury-Busting wars that should

have been ended 2.5 years ago!!!

[Grinchie]

185. Exactly -- The regulation we were promised is bogged down in the muck between the aisles

I'm just not getting that warm fuzzy feeling that accountability or regulation is welcomed in this DLC Circus.

The people are not happy. They voted for change, and were quickly forgotten as soon as the vote count was secured. This happened in Germany when people were left to sway in the wind when their democratic leaders acted the same way. Left politically impotent by the existing government, they flocked to the new kid on the block, Hitler out of sheer frustration and desperation.

I just started watching the classic documentary, "The World at War" agian, with a new eye towards history, and a review of what the social conditions were in the leadup to War.

I hate to say it, but Episode one is almost a checklist for the conditions we are living through right now.


Another astonishing thing is the big question, where did Hitler get all that fricken money to grow an army for 500,000 to 3.5 million in 4 years, all the while building a state of the art army, clothing them, equipping them with guns and ammunition, and at the same time building a new modern airforce and naval power? Remember, this occurred in 1933, when he was given the job by Hindenburg, and the world was still in the middle of the great depression. Yet, looking at the original footage of Hitlers early years, you can definately see that money was no object.

So where was this money coming from?

I'll keep you posted on what I find, but my first guess that it came from the Central Banks, with the money they stole from the United States at the start of the great depression.

[inna]

112. outstanding post

:applause:

[bjobotts]

182. WE are battling corporate fascism and HC reform is the battlefield.

[bjobotts]

183. Obama knows the "fix" would be too drastic at this point.But necessity will demand taking our nation

back from these "Economic Royalists". Contrary to Reagan, Gov is not the problem but the solution if we but make it efficient in regulating corporate greed.

[bjobotts]

184. Reganomics failed.Gov is not "the problem" but the solution, for we are the gov.

[Fire1]

221. The top can manipulate all they want but as you stated,

if there are no consumers able OR willing to buy goods and services, they will fold. No doubt about it. I'm waiting to see how long it takes them to figure out that consumers will be selectively spending for quite some time.

[glowing]

6. Yes, and most Americans realize this.. This is the reason Pres Obama was

elected. This is the reason Dems have a majority. People are ready for a New Deal like FDR gave us; especially some of the younger generation. We see and feel it the most.. its just now catching up to our parents with their jobs. these items you listed are very clear cut and straight forward to understand. Of course the PTB do not want to change their ways... and they are still buying up our politicians.. many of whom (esp. in the Senate) who have been there way too long and are clueless as to what is really happening and what people really want.

Its becoming clear to me that we are going to have to invest in the people who won't be bought and who will stand up for healthcare, environment, education, jobs, and ending costly wars. The people we currently have in place are NOT doing the American people any favors.

[AllentownJake]

7. I'm not attacking the President

Just stating reality.

[glowing]

55. I know. AND I think President Obama understands as well. He understands what

people want. However, manuevering around D.C. is much harder.. especially when Pukes, Blue Dogs, monied interests, and media are all against anything we need or want. Seriously, how can you make a headline about less than expected unemployed persons.. Have they taken into account those that have used up their unemployment and aren't counted now in their version of funky numbers? I'm not against Pres. Obama at all. I think he understand more than others. I wish that he'd be a little more forceful though and stick up for us with a stronger voice. I know he believes in the co-branches of govt.. but the other 2 branches aren't working out all that well... and until we get congresscritters that work for us and a progressive court bench, we need a bully on the bully pulpit.

[cui bono]

99. This is why we need to be demanding of Obama instead of trusting that he is the chess master

like so many on this site do. They hate anyone to be pro-active when it's about what Obama is doing and it is extremely bad for the country for his supporters to be sitting back in blind faith. In fact, I think he is craving for us to demand things of him so that it is clear that it's what the people want. In today's political climate he can't do the right thing because he will be attacked as partisan by the Right Wing idiots. It's a huge problem that so many Dems and progressives have gotten so complacent just because he is in the White House. And it's a huge problem that so many on this board don't understand this and cannot accept criticism of Obama. He certainly has plenty to be criticized for and until he starts restoring justice, the rule of law and the constitution he needs to be called out on it. This is the time to stir the pot even more so that the things we want and need will get done as the will of the people.

[AllentownJake]

104. If I could rec an individual post

I would

[cui bono]

106. Aw shucks.

:blush:

Seriously though, it's hard for me to come here anymore because of all of those who can't bear to hear criticism of their hero. Really sad. I thought people on this site were smarter than that.

[inna]

115. +1. i'm with comment#125. :) nt

[MessiahRp]

194. I don't know about the whole craving part

He seems to push back pretty hard when liberals have hit him and Blue Dogs on HC Reform. I don't think he wants liberals telling him or Emanuel what do at all. Our solution, while likely would be the one that would work, is most likely to be the one never even considered. As per the usual in Washington. If something's broken, never examine why it broke in the first place, instead continue to break it some more and make sure your corporate overlords get a big fat payout in the process. After all, isn't that what Washington's for? To take a crisis and make it a giant corporate welfare giveaway?

Rp

[northernlights]

227. I was wondering last night if

the back-room deal protecting drug companies from collective bargaining to purchase at reduced cost...which Obama reversed within 2 days...might have been deliberately leaked?

That he was forced by the powers that be into backroom dealing, so went along with it.

And then allowed the backroom deal to be leaked so that we the people would get advance notice to voice our outrage.

So that he could then reverse the policy and ensure reduced pricing?

I'm hoping, anyway...

But this is entirely right. We need an army behind Obama, with a forced march in the correct direction.

[defendandprotect]

128. We need a renewal of re-regulation and law . . . not "maneuvering" . . .

We need an end to the wars which Dems have been financing and running for the past 2.5 years --

and which are Treasury-busters.

We may think Pres. Obama understands . . . but where's the proof? We're still in Iraq, still

in Afghanistan. We're spending $200 million on new private planes for Pentagon and Congressional

elites!

We're spending $25-50 million on new mega-churches on our military bases!

I haven't heard one word from Obama about our homeless nor our impoverished children.

Maybe I missed it?

Our problem is corruption . . . and that's why we have laws -- let's enforce them -- and if

there aren't enough laws to deal with capitalism's corruption then let's create some new ones.

[defendandprotect]

120. Capitalism is finished, dead .... We need to re-regulate our economy and move on!!

[Dinger]

8. I Agree, But Holy Fuck,

Obama was left with a mess of such magnitude, I can't even imagine. All I know for sure is that I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.

[AllentownJake]

9. Not a critque on the President

Stating of our problems. If we don't understand our problems and acknowledge them as problems how the hell do we solve them?

[Dinger]

10. I Know

I didn't mean to insinuate that. Sorry if I did. You are exactly right.

[AllentownJake]

13. I have to emphasize that sometimes

If this was in GD P this would be taken as an attack on President Obama.

[sendero]

19. He had a herculean task to be sure....

.... but he's met the challenge by putting the assholes that created this mess in charge.

I know Obama is not stupid so at this point I have to believe our presidency is just a figurehead position.

Democracy, for the time being, is over in America.

[AllentownJake]

21. There is the alternative belief that he was trying to find a Joe Kennedy

People who benefited from the system to fix it. Of course Larry Summers and Tim Geithner have proven to be no Joe Kennedy.

[defendandprotect]

122. Obama turned to the people who created the mess to fix it . . . !!!

Goldman Sachs . .. . !!!

Summers . . . !!!

And Geithner has a background with a legal firm that was working for the GOP.

If all of the DLC connections of appointees aren't enough to wake us up!

[defendandprotect]

121. Come on, Dems have kept Treasury-busting wars going 2.5 years -- !!!

Why?

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Jus tone point, not that facts matter, we are NOT in a depression

the defintion of one is very specific and tied to GNP. We got close but not there.

Oh and another little factoid, employment is a trailingn indicator in a recovery.

After that, yes... there are many systemic issues that have to be adressed, but words matter and definitions matter.

[AllentownJake]

16. The statistics could be manipulated all you want

Employment and how the middle class are doing is my only indicator in an economy.

[HughMoran]

23. Heh, you said it

...and this thread is a perfect example of manipulating the facts to suit your argument.

You make some valid points, but you went just a little too far on the exaggeration index to make it more dramatic and lost me and many others I'm sure.

[AllentownJake]

26. Exaggeration index

700 billion dollar trade deficit, large national debt, large consumer debt, an economy that doesn't make tangible products.

A huge generation about to retire without the tax revenues to pay for their entitlement benefits.

I'm sorry where am I exaggerating.

[HughMoran]

29. Yes, nobody is denying that the numbers are bad

I stand by my opinion that you are pushing it to make a point.

[AllentownJake]

33. I'd like to see us abandon free trade and start making things again

However, our corporatist government doesn't like that idea.

[HughMoran]

38. I agree that we need to stop letting other nations destroy us

I would not suggest changing the system while in a very bad recession however, I think we need a recovery and a 2nd term President before we can implement more aggressive reforms.

[AllentownJake]

43. People are so prone to change when things are going well

:rofl:

[HughMoran]

61. Sadly, this recession hit during a change of guard

If real change was to be implemented during this downturn, it would have had to occur back at the end of Bushco when the banks were collapsing left and right. Perhaps Obama could have done things differently out of the gate, but people are now getting very impatient with the lenght of this downturn and are chomping at the bit to simply have some level of stability. I know I'm on my 3rd job in a year after many years at the same place and I'm feeling a little ragged. Health insuranvce is the number one issue for me after dealing with Cobra and the possibility that my family would have no health insurance at all.

[AllentownJake]

62. We fix Health Care it is a start

Huge start, that system is bleeding money into the hands of a few.

We'll see what happens after the recess. Hopefully we got our shit together and there will be real reform unlike what was passed on the credit card companies.

[Grinchie]

189. It was planned...

You really think they didn't see this coming? What better way to hamstring the population into fear mode for another 4 years.

[Fire1]

222. I believe that, too. But it back fired. n/t

[Grinchie]

243. I'm not so sure. If we really have an illusion of Democracy

Then the continuity of the failed policies driven by fear and uncertainty would benefit the status quo, hamstringing any hopes for real change out of concern for Budget, Defecit and Inflation. However, that is exactly what we are seeing. The Sorporate Blue Dogs helped the Republican face of the Corporatocracy when shrub was in Power, and now that this so called "Democratic" party is in power, we see the Corporate Blue Dog, DLC are still in the same spot they were for Shrub.

This division is illusory, although there are real Democrats out there, they are starved by the big moneylenders that control the path of the country.

I used to believe that the collapse of the economy prior to the Election was a miscalculation, and it got out of control a few months too early. However, looking at the aftermath, they were able to get everything they asked for, and little accountability has been sought regarding these corrupt transactions that have bankrupted the Nation. The DLC/Obama Administration is just another corrupted Corporate lovin Clinton rehash. Same psuedo social concerns, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, we see Monsanto Lawyers appointed to the USDA, Clear Cutting allowed in the Tongass, a refusal to hold prior criminal accountabilty, and continued Military Spending on a scale unimaginable to the common person.

What we are seen is a transfer of wealth on a massive scale, and nobody is paying attention. The same players are still wealthy, but a hell of a lot of chaff is left blowing in the wind.

[defendandprotect]

131. Other nations aren't destroying us . . . we've been betrayed by our own elected officials -- !!!

[defendandprotect]

130. Obama had the option to redo the trade agreements . . . as I recall, he passed on it. . . !!!

What do we need more than to junk these trade agreements which Clinton gave us???

We've lost 50,000 factories in the last 10 years!!

[mkultra]

95. im with you, exageration based on purley anecdotal

evidence that, frankly, contradicts all the factual evidence that exists.

No, we are not in a depression. Yes we have a trade gap. No, we still manufacture a lot of shit, we are in fact the world leader of manufactured goods if you leave out military goods. Consumer debt is a problem. Much of the stimulus went to infrastructure at the state level which goes directly into the hands of local workers. TARP went to keep our banking system from crashing, which is a funny thing to bitch about.

Essentially, a bunch of folks are complaining that the banks got bailed out because the economy is so hard on working people. Whats funny about that is that the economy we have felt is really just what the US economy is really like when banks aren't lending. So, if you dont like banking, maybe you should be cheering the recession.

The odd thing about this asston of junk coming from you Jake is that i know we have talked about this topic endlessly but yet you keep coming backto what appears to no just be rhetoric. For the last time Jake, employment numbers are a lagging indicator.

[AllentownJake]

98. We'll agree to disagree

:-)

[mkultra]

100. except for the depression thing

on that your just wrong. A depression is a specific term with specific measurements. You cant reapply your own meaning to the word. If your interested in doing that, perhaps you should also just make up a new word as well.


I suggest morononomic cycle.

[AllentownJake]

105. We'll see on the depression thing

Of course whoever said statistics are damn lies I'll agree with.

[mkultra]

147. wow, that is the peak of irony

The quote is from Mark Twain and it goes "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

The statement refers to the persuasive power of numbers, the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments, and the tendency of people to disparage statistics that do not support their positions.

lol

[AllentownJake]

151. I don't know much

However, I do know when I spend more than I earn to maintain my current lifestyle eventually the bill will come due.

[Grinchie]

192. Where can I get a pair of those Rose Coloered Palin Glasses your wearing mkultra.

You may not be that wise trying to paint a rosy picture of the economy. Mostly because there is tangible proof otherwise.

I love statistics. I even love facts more. Try posting some before you make claims others are disparaging the ephemeral strawmen statistics you are referring to.

I see you beating your chest, claiming that you got your pony already.

[mkultra]

232. i dont think you have been paying attention

no one has said the economy is rosy. What is said is that it is stabilizing. 1% GDP last quarter and a slowing of job loss. Many other areas of the market are showing. IM just responding to morons who think that the only economic indicator of value is the unemployment count. I have posted tons of facts and statistics to back up my point. Feel free to either do a search or just assert some bullshit point and we will hash it out.

[Grinchie]

190. Wow, you actually don't see that Trillions of Dollars have disappeared from the banking system

You have blown a lot of gas in another thread about how we still outmanufacture anyone..

How about you tell us exactly what we manufacture, and I'll give you a head start, it's not GMO Corn, because it's all subsidized production.

[mkultra]

236. how about you tell us how trillions of dollars of tax money

made it into the banking sector first.

This should be interesting. Your not one of these idiots that thinks that risk or guarantee is actual money are you?

[Grinchie]

245. Exactly what are you getting at?

Trilluions of dollars of bad debt was created and then sold to unsuspecting investors all ofver the world. Your so called Risk was non existant, since these things had supposedly Triple AAA credit ratings, which was a total fraud.

The Monolines that were insuring these so called Triple AAA rated securities were leveraged 40 to 1, and when they started seeing that unsustatianble mortgages were failing in record numbers, they went belly up.

The true magnitude of this Fraud and bad debt is till hidden in the bank, and is fully enabled by massive injection of Capital to allow them to remain solvent. Otherwise, it these toxic assets were aloowed to be revealed, the Fraud would be visible for the world to see.

It's still there, but you seem rather happy that these Criminal schemes are now bailed out by the American Taxpayer. 1.4 Trillion in Captital is only 10% of the total loss.

You simpletons really don't have a clue about the depth and the breadth of this fraud. You'd rather not admit that Debt allows the creation of even more more out of thin air due to the Fractional Reserve Monetary System that has been subverted to the whims of the moneylenders.

I'd recomend that you go do some research, because you are woefully unprepared to boast about Grren Shoots, when you don't have a clue how this fruadulent service based economy has been running on Fumes, Smoke and Mirrors for the last 20 years. I won't because you seem to think America can Outmanufacture the world, yet are unable to provide a single example other than a broad "Durable Goods" without any specific industry that is the leader. Thats because there isn't any, other than the War Machine related industires, and even those are not applicable, because they are economically depleting, and can dissappear in a stroke of the pen like the F-22 Homer.

I'm sure trillions made it into the banking sector, thats why were are seeing fuel prices escalate contrary to the laws of Supply and Demand.

[mkultra]

261. im not even sure your speaking english

i would think you copied this from some birther blog if there weren't so many spelling errors.

1.4 trillion is 10% of the total loss?

Yes, we actually do know that this toxic debt is still sitting at the banks and we also know that the last half of tarp will be used to help package and resell this debt to private investors with the fed offering guarantees.

Here's a link with actual data since you never seem to bring your own.
http://www.investmentu.com/IUEL/2009/January/toxic-debt.html

as far as your blind assertion about military manufacturing, if you put some simple thought to it you might stop sounding like a fool. The total military budget for 2009 was a little over 500 billion, only 100 billion of that was procurement. so essentially, its less than 10% of our total manufacturing output.

like i said you loon, your just full of shit. try bringing some actual facts next time instead of your made up bullshit. don't worry though, that sting is just pride fucking with you.

[Grinchie]

264. Oh i'm hurt, I made a few typos

Me sorry, you make my eyes rain.

Holy christ you are a such a dweeb.

It's like all the other posts I made never existed. Is your brain like one of those black wax pads with a sheet of acetate on it that you lift up and erase after you read every post?

Your reading retention is nill, and you rely on it to twist everything out of context in order to further your extremely weak points. You haven't made any, and your links are worthless.

Sorry buddy, you can take your RW tactics and shove it up your liabilities.

Buy the way, your link displays your gullibility. I suggest that everyone look at this link, and see what mkultra thinks is a verifiable and trustworthy source.

Hey MkUltra, don't forget to invest in their moneymaking "Secret" while your there. Man you are too funny.

I'm starting to think that you were actualy a reall test subject for mkultra. It would explain your inability to cope with the real world, and be taken in by the people at the link you posted.

[mkultra]

266. blah blah blah

im so sorry that my RW apologies of the Obama economic plan have failed to disrupt. Clearly only loyal progressives like yourself understand how his administration has failed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. And the defintion of what a depression is handgs on GNP+ Unemployment

the former we didn't even get close, thank god. Or you may realize that this real crisis could have been many times as bad. The latter, yes they are manipulated and even worst case scenario, we got close but no cigar. That is the 15% unemployment rates that took into account those who stopped looking, or those who never were counted. Even at that point it didn't get there and thank your lucky stars.

Now in some regions and particular cities... yes it did get there... and it is STILL THERE... but as a nation we didn't get there, and I for one am pleased we did not. Why? As a student of history this was bad enough... we don't need a depression. Mind you, I was expecting one FULLY six months ago since TRENDS pointed to one... and I am talking of the actual one by the definitions used by experts... and though the government program was NOT as large as it should have been, you can bet your sweet ass that if McCain would have gotten elected... we would have reached a depression.

Now I do expect this employment to start to pick up in the recovery, and our GNP to start going into the positive once things start getting better. You will see, even the middle class will see some benefits out of this recovery. It is not the kind I'd like to see, but it is far better than a depression, which Americans have no fucking clue what it looks like. Why the word is tossed around like it meant nothing.

[Grinchie]

195. I guess the bankruptcy of AIG, GM, Lehman, Merril Lynch, et al

Are all a normal state of affairs.. Tra La La, it's just big business realigning. Tra La La. California Bankrupt, Hawaii Bankrupt, Tra La La.

Your right Nadin, no depression here. 1.4 trillion dollars of stimulus and counting, tra la la.. Just normal money flows.


:sarcasm:

Ok Ok, but do you think anyone else wil buy your semantic Horseshit?

[mkultra]

238. yeah, people who speak english will

as they should know that this is a RECESSION not a depression your fucking mouth breather.

[Grinchie]

246. Ouch, did I say an UNWORD?

My My, you certainly are touchy. Here we are in what many are calling a depression, and you go ape.

Poor mkultra.. Shall I call you a Waahmbulance?

[mkultra]

260. if i was going to go ape, i would ask your mother for advice

otherwise, i would simply say that perhaps you should save your breath, you brain needs all the oxygen it can get big guy.

btw, nice zinger with the waambulance thing. I remember when i had my first beer.

[Grinchie]

265. You need oxygen? That's unusual for an anaerobic bacteria.

And with that, I'll leave you to finish your beer.

Good luck troll.

[mkultra]

267. yes, i support Obama

and his policies, thus to you im a troll. FYI, your on the wrong board.

lol, anaerobic bacteria. you can do better than that.

[Grinchie]

268. You have no idea what you support.

You are told what to support and compulsively do so for your life to have any meaning.

Actually looking subjectively at facts is not in your play book. You rely on simple minded, shallow Propaganda like it was gospel, while you ignore the suffering of your fellow man.

If you don't get your way, you try and label your opponent as an outsider of your group, and therefore unworthy.

This is typical for people like you, with your brain stuck in first gear, railing at other drivers because your brain doesn't move fast enough.

Obama is just another of an ongoing symbol of the Social Structure. It's not him I worry about.

[mkultra]

269. well, im glad your worried about me

I would thank you but im to busy memorizing next weeks talking points and drinking my Koolaid.
Next week, maybe you can bitch about without actually explaining how the bilderburg group engineered 911.

whew, back to my Catcher in the Rye.

[sendero]

20. Your problem is ..

.. that you believe the GDP numbers. I have no reason to do so since all of the other numbers, CPI, unemployment, are all blatantly cooked.

[AllentownJake]

22. of course they are

They always have been. We don't measure underemployment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. Which has NUTHING to do with GDP

[defendandprotect]

132. Correct . . . statistics haven't been believable since GOP got their hands on them . ..!!!

All of the reporting rules have been changed or broken --

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. GDP goes by world standards and the World Bank, not the GOP

but I am proof positive you knew that.

Sorry, but there are some things that we need to rely on. And sadly EMPLOYMENT is a trailing indicator in ANY recovery.

Now anectotally, we have seen a few things... prices have stabilized, and them sales are no longer as bad (or good for the buyer if the buyer had money) as they used to be.

Sorry...

[Name removed]

197. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

209. We need to be able to rely on a lot of things . . . that doesn't mean we can or that

those things are reliable --

How can you talk about prices having "stabilized" for one thing when your dollar is

worth about half of it was when Bush took office?

:eyes:

[coalition_unwilling]

28. Good point you make -- economists define

"Depression" as a decline in GDP of greater than 10% over an indeterminate number of contiguous fiscal quarters.

A "Recession," by cootrast, is 2 or more contiguous fiscal quarters of negative GDP, no matter how small the % decline is in each quarter.

I have seen no figures on the aggregate decline in GDP since Q4 of 2007. Have you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. They have been published, and this quarter it was -1.2 irc...

far less than expected by the way.

[defendandprotect]

133. Remember the old saying . . .

a recession is when your neighbor has lost his job --

a depression is when you've lost yours!

All of this is relative . . . and we still have the Reagan/Bush homeless with us --

still 25% of our children living in poverty - hungry.

[glowing]

60. GDP as an indicator of economic well being is the worst indicator. I wish

above all else that this GDP thingy was not the measure.. because the truth is that for many, many people and in many, many states.. they are experiencing a Depression. Wallstreet's fortunes are good for so few... The many are in a depression. AND because we have less quality social safety systems in America (thanks to the Pukes), we have many more people without food and shelter.. just basic necessities of life... AND this is unacceptable to me, and it should be unacceptable to everyone. I also think its unacceptable globally as well.. not just in a me, me I'm an American way. Every human should have basic rights. Denying just one person humanity and basic rights is disgusting to me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. As bad as things are right now they are nowhere near

where they were in 1932...

Pick a book and read it.

Could they get there? Yes...

Will they? No, I highly doubt it.

Have we reached the bottom? I'll wait two more months to see the statistics.

Oh and as bad as the pukes are about the social net, and things have gotten bad, we are not near the levels of STARVATION we saw in the 1930s either.

Pick a book, read some history...

This exaggeration really makes me want to do this.

:banghead:

By the way as bad as things are in the US, and in a few places the level of poverty I saw in the Ciudades Perdidas in Mexico (truly depression era poverty and starvation levels), for the most part, we are not there.

Could we do better? Yes,

Should we do better? Absolutely.

But stop exagerating. Some of us have tasted that level of poverty...

[Grinchie]

199. Go ahead and wait, you can have whatever remains

While the ones that can see what is coming sit back and enjoy the cold winter ahead.

I'm as compassionate as the next person, but people with a closed mind like you are not worth the effort.

Go ahead, wait two months.

[druidity33]

226. does the GDP number

include the money that the govt gave to the banks? WHat was the total again? $700 billion? Or did they add more in the end?

:shrug:

[JVS]

87. Wrong. There is no specific definition of a depression. It is a prolonged recession

A recession in turn has a precise definition of 2 or more quarters of GDP shrinkage. So what constitutes a depression is essentially a debate on how many quarters qualifies as prolonged. Further complicating the matter is that some people consider severity of the shrinkage to factor into what constitutes a depression. For example, if Ireland's GDP shrinks by the projected 7.7% that is expected for 2009 (and this is after shrinking 3% in 2008, and expecting to shrink another 2.6% in 2010), then there are many who would consider a decline in a year that is larger than a good 2 years' growth to be severe enough to warrant the label depression. Also the historical references to depressions have included the positive growth years following the depression in which the economy built up to pre-crisis levels. For example 1935 was a year of positive GDP growth in the US and thus not part of a recession which further means that it can't be part of a prolonged recession (i.e. a depression), but nobody claims that the depression was over in 1935.

[AllentownJake]

92. Economic terms are open for debate

My question is, do you see people going back to work at jobs equal or better than they held last year. If the answer is no, we are in a depression, not a recession.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. And you'd be wrong. Nobody is arguing that we need

a whole sale revision of the economic system... but your definition of recession and depression is wrong.

Oh and here is one more clue for you, by the definition given by Adam Smith on what is capitalism... guess what? We are not a capitalist country... just like the USSR was never a communist country... but hey, sue me... I am using the actual definition by the creator of the theory. Here is another shocker... he'd agree with you that we need to break up the monopolies, wholesale...

So yes, let's go back to Capitalism, as defined by Smith... including small time local manufacture...

[defendandprotect]

134. Agree . . . plus we need to think more in terms of economic democracy . . . not capitalism . ..

[nadinbrzezinski]

177. Actually READ on Adam Smith... I want Capitalism... as defined by Adam Smith

No monopolies for starters. He abhorred them.

We do not live in a capitalist system. We have not in a long time.

The US is as Capitalist as the USSR was Communist.

[defendandprotect]

212. Capitalism was invented by the Vatican/patriarchy to run its Papal States . ..

when feudalism was no longer sufficient --

It's been with us in various forms for about 500 years --

We can survive without its corruptions -- and constant failures --

Understand what you're saying about TOTALITARIAN communism, however --

try this old Russian joke ...

"Q: What's the difference between capitalism and communism?

A: Under capitalism, man exploits man

Under communism, it's just the opposite "


Capitalism is a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system intended to move the

wealth and resources from the many to the few and has succeeded very well at doing that

all over the world.

Capitalism is synonymous with corruption, not democracy.

Move on -- you can't have a democracy without economic democracy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

233. No it wasn't

they refined the banking system during the renaissance, but the person who CODIFIED capitalism is Adam Smith.

Do you know even the most basic of economic history? Serious.

[defendandprotect]

241. Capitalism has been dominant in the Western world since the end of feudalism . . .

Capitalism as a system developed incrementally from the 16th century in Europe and England, although some features of capitalist organization existed in the ancient world, and early aspects of merchant capitalism flourished during the Late Middle Ages.<1><2><3>

Capitalism has been dominant in the Western world since the end of feudalism.

Capitalism gradually spread throughout Europe, and in the 19th and 20th centuries, it provided the main means of industrialization throughout much of the world.<4>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAPITALISM

Meanwhile, you're saying that Adam Smith "reformed" capitalism but didn't change this

"King-of-the-Hill" system?

Again, capitalism has failed citizens repeatedly -- it has enriched the few which all statistics

support.

The only true "reform" of capitalism was New Deal reforms by regulation -- which were overturned

by GOP with aid of Democrats.

And, if you're trying to suggest that capitalism isn't a rigged system intended to enrich the few

and impoverish the many, then you're more than misinformed, you're in denial.





:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. Yes there are a depression is defined as a decline of 10% or more a year

we got close, but not there.

A recession is defined by two or more continous declines in GDP, we are still declining, but we are not getting close to the 10%

Now here is a piece of trivia for ya... this time around was the first time the World Bank and IMF actually discussed, and failed to agree, upon a world definition of depression. The one we use, coming from first the 1930s and then 1950s is a national definition, for the OECMD nations. (First word kiddies, developed world, the NORTH)

[JVS]

172. By that standard the great depression was isolated to 1932

1930 -8.6%
1931 -6.4%
1932 -13%
1933 -1.3%.
http://useconomy.about.com/od/grossdomesticproduct/f/Depression.htm
I'll go with what my economics professors all said which is that a depression is a long and severe recession and that there isn't a precise definition. Recession is well defined, and we have been dealing with one hell of a recession since 12/2007

[nadinbrzezinski]

176. No it wasn't we had technically two depressions

first in 1932 and then in 1937 when the foot was taken off the accelerator because of the ahem deficit

[JVS]

225. So 1931 was not part of the depression because 00decline wasn't large enough?

[nadinbrzezinski]

234. As I said, by the stirict defitinion tha tis when we hit it

by the definition HISTORIANS use the depression started in 1929 wiht it's known event and ended only in 1939, and not due to WW II, that is a myth.

Here is another one that MIGHT SHOCK YOU, that little turn down in the 1950s was very close to a depression, if not technically one...

And don't care how many ways from here to Sunday you want to put it, things in the US are NOT as desperate as they were in the 1930s. Thankfully we should NOT get there.

They are desperate enough for my taste though.

[JVS]

250. Where do you get this strict definition from? I'm believing the several economics...

professors I've taken courses from until I see some evidence for your strict definition. They all said that a depression was simply a prolonged recession.

[mkultra]

239. a depression is generaly considered

a single quarter drop in GDP of 10% or a period of decline of three years or more.

I know the wiki page on an economic depression supports what you said but the wiki page on recession has the definition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession

[JVS]

251. I'm actually going by what all the profs said when I was getting an economics degree.

Professors for both levels of Macro said that the a depression was not defined precisely and that it is generally understood as a severe (both in duration and level of decline) recession. A precise definition does not exist.

The link cited by the wiki page to support the 10% GDP drop claim covers it well.
http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/11/23/what-is-the-difference-between-a-recession-and-a-depression/

[mkultra]

259. techinally true

but to use that point to claim that we "could" call this a depression is a stretch. Which, if im not mistake, was the point we got dragged into.

[defendandprotect]

124. "Close to it" . . . obviously "depressions" don't fall on us all equally . . .

OBVIOUSLY, when some still have their jobs, it's not quite a depression.

It's when the other guy is homeless and without a job, right . . . ??

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. I am talking of the definition used by professionals, not the old joke

now the old joke goes like this. A recession is a recession until one looses his or her job.

Now I am sorry if this reliance on the STANDARD PROFESSIONAL DEFINITIONS bothers you. We have to rely on PROFESSIONAL definitions because they give a STANDARD to go from. Using these PROFESSIONAL definitions, we got close to the technical fit of a depression. Now that does not mean people are not having it hard. People are. But if you think this is as bad as it could get, well I have some sea shore property in Arizona or Nevada. And that is the point... things did not and have not gotten as bad as they could.

Now here is another piece of trivia for you. YOU DO NOT KNOW if I did lose a job or not. or whether I have been able to get one in my field... so I would kindly suggest you do not make assumptions.

And yes, things have gotten bad, but NOT to a depression level, not even close to be specific. Oh and yes I have seen THAT LEVEL OF POVERTY, and even now, as bad as things are in the US, they are not as bad as they could be.

Yep, I will repeat what I have said in the past when neighbors complained when they shut our water off for three days, and they were complaining. This is the way many in the world live day to day... yep, we are spoiled rotten, because we think things are real bad. No they are not. They were well on their way. I sugest you pick and chiefly open a book and read on real poverty. Whether that is the 1930s, or some places OUTSIDE the US today. Things got bad, are still bad, we need many reforms to prevent ANOTHER BAD RECESSION, but depression, we didn't quite get there.

And yes, words matter.

[defendandprotect]

206. Obviously, what bothers you is truth . . . and the adage is truer than "expert"

analysis . . .

[knitter4democracy]

235. We are here in Michigan.

Michigan is dying, and no one seems to give a crap about that in Washington.

[amandabeech]

275. You're right.

I grew up in western lower Michigan north of Muskegon. My second favorite aunt and her husband lived in B.C., by the way. She was a good person--he called A.A.s "pickaninneys" if you can believe that. By the time I was 16, I was spending much of our visits there either in the car or walking around the neighborhood, which was by the old airport. His good point was that he was an ardent conservationist. He used to take us to the Kellogg bird sanctuary and was an ardent advocate of the Kirkland's Warbler and its habitat in the Grayling National Guard training base. He and my wonderful aunt used to spend days in a blind up there trying to get a good photo of that elusive bird. He actually had one of his photos included in an Aububon Society book. With him, it was the good with the bad. But I digress.

One of my best friends at home, who is a rock-ribbed but very intelligent and completely decent Republican, asked me on my latest visit which ended 10 days ago (I've lived east of the Appalachians for decades and went to one of those fancy eastern law schools), "Why do they hate factory jobs?" I feel it in my gut, and have for the 25 years since I graduated from law school, but I have a hard time articulating it and really have a hard time telling him. My answer is, "They don't give a shit about you and think that you're barely human." I really can't say why. Can you add anything?

[WeDidIt]

15. From your post, it seems you've never experienced a recession before

We are currently in a recovery period. That is undeniable.

We could slip into a double dip, but we are definitely in a recovery currently.

[AllentownJake]

17. Systematic problems

The economic system of the past 30 years is unsustainable. What are we recovering into, a weakened version of the unsustainable system that will result in a worse economic period in 3-5 years?

Each of these recessions have been getting progressively worse. Tremors before the eathquake.

I've been through 3 recessions. I don't see a long term solution to prevent these recessions from being worse the next time around, nor do I see solutions that will prevent the same causes of this recession form occurring again.

[NNN0LHI]

30. Each of the recessions have not been getting progressively worse as you suggest

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/.a/6a00d8341c66b253ef010536d3a3f9970c-800wi

Look at 1957 and 1948

[AllentownJake]

32. 1991-1992, 2000-2003, 2008-2009

We got ourselves out of the 80's recessionary period by borrowing money and printing more.

We are trying the same solution to the 2008-2009 by doing the same. Only problem, the debt we have from the 80s and 90s recession was never paid off.

[Zynx]

67. Your version of the 1990-91 recession is a little peculiar.

The recession was caused largely by 9% interest rates and we did not respond to it with particularly robust fiscal or monetary policy. In fact, we did pretty much nothing on the fiscal front considering that was the beginning of the attempts at deficit reduction.

Of course the Fed lowered rates, but that's been true for every recession of the last 70 years.

[mkultra]

102. i encourage you to do a bit of reading

it seems like you need it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States


I would also point out that the reason the fed was given expanded powers after the GD was to prevent the far more serious recessions that occurred in the past.

[Hannah Bell]

83. you need to update your chart, we're going on 19 months in this one.

http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/08/employment-report-247k-jobs-lost-94.html

check the 2nd chart down for the update.

check the 1st chart for comparison of absolute rates.

[defendandprotect]

135. Wrong . . . did we have homeless in 1957 . . . did we still have Welfare Guarantees . . . ???

[undeterred]

24. "That is undeniable"???

Oh, I think its plenty deniable. Obviously you aren't out there looking for a job with the masses.

[WeDidIt]

47. Unemployment is a lagging indicator

IF the jobs situation does not turn around, however, this will become a double dip.

And yes, I am well aware of the job situation.

[AllentownJake]

53. My question is what is the employment

and did the people return to wages that were similar to the ones they lost...oh yeah and inflation is coming.

[girl gone mad]

86. no, not in the case of consumer driven recessions.

not sure why this is so hard to accept, but let's just pretend you're right. The rosiest forecasts call for declinig employment into late 2010. When was the last recovery where UE lagged by 18 months?

[AllentownJake]

90. Less consumers

mean less consumption.

We are not a producing economy. Also those who hold most of the assets hold onto their assets tighter in a recession. This trickle down economic theory only works with a credit card, and frankly our credit card is maxed out. The only thing we have to trade right now is our natural resources. Our intellectual capital has been heading to the casino for years, instead of working on innovation, has been cooking up new investment schemes.

[mkultra]

240. lagged behind what for 18 months

we have a seen a slowing in GDP loss and a slowing in new unemployment claims.

[sendero]

25. Oh yeah...

... another "jobless recovery"? Like the one we had in 2003?

The level of economic ignorance and illiteracy around here is astounding.

Sheeple in the stock market are about to get sheared AGAIN and I'm beyond having pity for them.

[AllentownJake]

27. But...

The Dow hit 9000!!!!

Nevermind we are removed companies that didn't do so well like GM from the DOW.

[BumRushDaShow]

48. The Dow uptick

along with the uptick in the other exchanges, have helped millions to start to recoup some of their 401(k) money. There are many many folks with 401(k)s who had no choice but to have them invested in stocks as company policy (others could move them into bonds or other vehicles).

And you are right that poor-performing companies have been removed from the Dow (and other exchanges) - they have been doing that for ages, most notably per criteria put in place after the 1987 crash. The Dow industrials are just 30 selected companies, but since corporations have essentially eliminated company-paid pensions (part of a past world of "fringe benefits") that previous generations enjoyed until Raygun changed their minds and convinced them that greed was good, then the alternate retirement plans have been going through a rough and painful process as they have evolved as substitutes.

IMHO, the best course of action - which will take time to implement (because it will require a whole reprogramming of the greed-is-good society), is to eliminate the bubble and bust model and create some sort of "stability is good" model.

[AllentownJake]

68. It will bust again

right around the time people start feeling ok to put their money back into it.

[BumRushDaShow]

71. And that's why Congress needs to start putting the regulations back

The sooner they start, the sooner the relevant executive branch agencies can write rules for enforcement.

[AllentownJake]

72. Not going to happen

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6258716&mesg_id=6259326

[BumRushDaShow]

94. You might be surprised

Only a fool lets the enemy know their strategy. This is why the repukes, in their typical egotistical way, eventually collapse every time.

[defendandprotect]

137. Not as long as the public doesn't wake up to the need . . . but we don't have a free press

doing its job -- rather we have corporate press complicit in right wing propaganda, lies,

profiting from wars -- and election steals!

[BOG PERSON]

187. Very true.

[WeDidIt]

49. Unemployment is a lagging indicator

If the unemployment situation does not turn around, this will become a double dip recession.

That does not detract from the fact we are currently in a recovery period.

[sendero]

63. Keep listening..

.. to the MSM pump monkeys. They really have your best interests at heart.

[TheWatcher]

215. In an Economy that is based on debt and consumption Unemployment is a LEADING Indicator.

Wake Up.

[Grinchie]

204. Amen to that statement.

I see a cold wet Christmas Darby.

[Johonny]

35. I'm agreeing here

I mean this was a pretty bad recession. You don't restart the economy overnight. After 4 years if some of what the poster says is still true, I'll be inclined to agree. But now? Seems a bit early in the recovery period for this post.

[AllentownJake]

36. Please tell me which economic policy will address the problems I cited

Educate me and I'll stop whining.

[NNN0LHI]

37. No more tax cuts for the wealthy is a damn good start

[AllentownJake]

40. Yes that was a very good start

They take their tax cuts an invest the money overseas.

[defendandprotect]

138. We need to reinstate progressive taxation . . .

and remove taxes from the poor --

and lower middle classes.

[WeDidIt]

51. I expect Congress to address the regulatory issues next year.

It's a perfect setup because deregulation is the overall cause for the recession, as with nearly all recessions.

[AllentownJake]

54. During an election year when they are soliciting campaign contributions

:rofl:

[WeDidIt]

57. When the industries that require regulation are overwhelming donors to Republicans?

:rofl:

[AllentownJake]

59. Hold On I got something for you

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00006424

:rofl:

Next theory?

[defendandprotect]

139. Next year . . . ???? How much more will be stolen by then?

[AllentownJake]

153. everything by my current estimates

[Johonny]

118. educate yourself

why do I have to do all ur work? Look up Barney Frank recent interviews to start.

[brentspeak]

39. How are we in a "recovery period" when the nation is averaging over 240K job losses/month?

Economies do not "recover" while experiencing monumental job losses.

[AllentownJake]

42. But there were less job cuts than last month

:sarcasm:

[Deja Q]

44. Compared to twice as many cuts, if next month it's 125k lost, followed by 0, followed by adding 125k

We're at the cusp of recovery, I'd say.

[AllentownJake]

45. Recovery into what is the question

We are a junkie. Are we fixing the fundamentals or did we just find a new supplier for our fix.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

64. Yep, if the current trend continues we may have positive growth as early as this month or next.

The recession may even be officially over already.

One thing that alot of people don't realize is that improving psychology is huge part of a decent recovery. Americans are net savers of ~4 or 5% of their incomes right now, which is unheard of recently. If the economic statistics show improvement then consumers will respond by spending more, which in the end is what's going to get us out of this. People can poo-poo the stats as being cooked all they want, and maybe they are right but in the end we need the numbers to be improving if we want a recovery.

[AllentownJake]

65. Spending more is what got us into this mess to begin with

:rofl:

[brentspeak]

89. Adding more debt on a credit card = "recession over"???

[Name removed]

205. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WeDidIt]

52. All other indicators demonstrate recovery

and unemployment is a lagging indicator.

Fewer job losses last month than the prior month indicates unemployment is turning around.

[brentspeak]

88. "Recovery" by what metric???

What constitutes "recovery" in your view?

[AllentownJake]

91. Good question

Most will say positive GDP growth, however who does that positive GDP growth benefit is my question.

[defendandprotect]

140. We will never have true recovery as long as we have capitalism . ..

[mkultra]

101. who said we are in a recovery period and how do you know we are

still losing jobs?

[BlooInBloo]

66. Yep.

[Greyhound]

70. From your replies, it seems that you have simply memorized the bullet points

that the media feeds us.

There is nothing to indicate any recovery at all, just the DJIA going up as institutional investors have been forced back into the market. The general slowdown of the collapse directly correlates the the annual slowdown of activity during the summer.

Inflation/cost of living continue to rise as does unemployment even as increasing numbers of people fall off the back-end into the "no longer counted" category. This "recovery" is composed of nothing but the re-establishment of massive theft in the financial industry and PR.

[defendandprotect]

127. All we have done is bailed out corrupt capitalism . . . again . .

We need to move to economic democracy and junk this system based only on profit

in a "King-of-the-Hill" scheme.

"Too big to fail"? Where are our anti-trust laws . . . or is that another part of

our law that has to be put behind us?

Nor do we seem to have come to terms as yet with hedge funds and derivatives . . .

plus how many of our states are near bankruptcy?

[Grinchie]

201. You'd think it after 1.4 trillion of funny money gets floated.

However, nobody considers the price down the road..

The recovery is a slight burp after the fat guy gorged on 1.4 trillion pies. He maintains his weight, but you won't like his product.

[TheWatcher]

207. A Fake Stock Market Bubble and Phantom Bank Profits Due to Mark-To-Make Believe Accounting

Are not indicators of a Recovery.

Cooked, Massaged, Government Data that does not give a true picture of the State of things, is not an indicator of a Recovery.

Propaganda, Happy Talk, Upbeat Rhetoric, and "Hopes", "Assurances", and empty Predictions from the Media, White House, and The Fed and Treasury, do not equal a Recovery.

The Fed continuing to Monetize the Debt and devalue the currency does not equal a recovery.

You simply cannot accept that you are being lied to. Period.

You want to believe in The Con, and you are fully invested in the false paradigm that you want to be true.

It's that simple.

Mainstream Economic News is useless.

At this point, you either get it, or you don't.

You Don't. Neither do the rest of the cheerleaders in this thread.

I wish you luck.

Who knows, if the world really does function according to your fantasy paradigm and Ponzi Economic Model you worship, instead of true fundamentals, it might actually save you by itself.

[lonestarnot]

31. K & R

[knowwhatimsayin]

41. Thank you for calling this to everyone's attention!

As someone who has a BA and hasn't held a job in almost two years, I can say that I have applied to Target and never got an interview. So what to say of a job that would actually be a living wage and pay the bills + leave money for savings? I keep hearing about Wall Street doing so much better and that's swell and all, but I need a J.O.B. and so do a bunch of other people!

[AllentownJake]

46. 2 years ago there were 30 postings in my area for the job I once had

Today on Monster there were 3.

[knowwhatimsayin]

50. Right. And even back then, my local newspaper

(which used to have want ads several pages long) had shrunk to half a page and most of those were the junk jobs that are bogus: stuffing envelopes, mystery shoppers...

This was during the last administration when we were getting the same rosy stats and I just knew it was a bunch of shite, based upon my observations.

[area51]

58. Welcome to DU, knowwhatimsayin. (n/t)

[progressoid]

69. "We need a new NEW DEAL"

yep

+1

[defendandprotect]

141. Yes . . . eh . .. at least the same New Deal put back in place . .. !!!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

73. An excellent compilation of very salient points.

Very well stated, Jake!

[AllentownJake]

82. According to some on here they are RW talking points

:rofl:

[defendandprotect]

142. What they mean is that they are "sore" points they don't like to see raised . ...

[ProSense]

74. You bet your ass and lost

Krugman: “What we’re seeing is stabilization...the great freefall and the nosedive seems to be over"

As Economy Turns, Washington Looks Better (Roubini praises Bernanke)

[AllentownJake]

75. I'm talking about long term problems

Stabilize into what is my question.

Address my points on our long term mine field. Don't just link to Krugman.

[ProSense]

76. You're talking knee jerk

Obama's budget, health care, regulatory reform, climate change, and a host of other serious reform measures have yet to be passed.

[AllentownJake]

78. Did I blame President Obama anywhere in my post

I think I started it off by saying the problems weren't his fault.

We will have no real recovery without Healthcare reform and Regulatory reform.

I find the idea we will have real regulatory reform in an election year laughable.

[ProSense]

79. Oh please, based on this comment your entire post is speculative nonsense

"We will have no real recovery without Healthcare reform and Regulatory reform. I find the idea we will have real regulatory reform in an election year laughable."

Who is telling the joke: Obama?

[AllentownJake]

80. Tell me when politians are fishing for money for their campaigns

Do you honestly think we will have 60 Senate votes for regulatory reform? I'm sure both Senators from NY will be as aggressive as Joe Biden was on fighting the bankruptcy bill :sarcasm:


PS see below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6258716&mesg_id=6259326

[Name removed]

81. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[amandabeech]

274. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that a constitutional amendment

providing for public funding, and public funding only, for campaigns for federal office is the only real way to get at the heart of the problem.

The Supreme Court has ruled that buying ads is an expression of free speech under the First Amendment. As a recovering lawyer, I can understand the decision. However, in the modern day, I see all around me the harm that the decision promotes. IMHO, a well-crafted amendment is the only way to go. How to pass it under the present First Amendment interpretation, however, is incredibly problematic. It's really a Catch 22 situation. My guess is that people will have to get a lot more pissed off than they are today to get something done--and I'm talking 1860-style or 1968-style pissed off.

[Name removed]

208. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

210. "You are fully invested in Propaganda and bullshit Mainstream Analysis which is useless."

Sure, Krugman and Roubini are known for their mainstream bullshit.

"When this current Bubble Collapses, come talk to me about loss."

Who are you?

[Name removed]

214. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyhound]

77. K & R, good job and thanks. n/t

:kick: & R

[nc4bo]

85. Kicked & Recommended. nt

[Vidar]

93. K&R

[spanone]

96. your ass is recovering?

[AllentownJake]

97. I had a bad fall

Geithner left a banana peel on the floor and I slipped.

[HughBeaumont]

103. Jobs continue to remain a huge problem.

Not just the past 20 months. Try the past 10 YEARS (Hmmmmmmm, who was president 8 of those 10? And who had the best record of that period 2 of those 10? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm . . ..)

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/94

It's kind of funny . . . or maybe it isn't . . . that we didn't get ONE media channel to call the Failure Fuhrer on that March 2001 through March 2004 stretch of absolutely lame job creation. That's when his vaunted tax cuts should, by all rights, have taken effect and hiring would start up again. HOW did he get re-elected again? Oh yeah, because half of taxophobe Uhmerican'ts are dumber than a bag of hammers.

My thread dropped quicker than a brick in a pond and I don't know why. Maybe people are just too depressed to comment.

[AllentownJake]

162. I gave you rec #5

To the greatest with you.

[Lorien]

114. Add to all that America's health care nightmare. Premiums keep going up

patient care goes down, CEO salaries continue to rise, and more and more doctors are leaving their practice because of all the bureaucratic red tape (caused by insurance companies). One injury or illness can destroy all that a family has worked for. Since we don't care about human beings in this country, we can then at least care that the current system is causing huge economic woes for millions.

[travelingtypist]

116. The structural sickness isn't being looked at, much less talked about.

You said it well.

[Deja Q]

136. What structure? It's a global economy...

:shrug:

This response might be sarcasm, I just don't know anymore...

[defendandprotect]

143. We need to redo the Clinton trade agreements . . . urgently!!

[travelingtypist]

145. Repeal corporate personhood.

Investigations and prosecutions of the Bush Crime Family's war crimes.

Media reform, the Fairness Doctrine modernization.

Mark-to-market accounting, which made all of the derivatives possible.

Real campaign finance reform, i.e., public financing of elections.

I'm sure there's more, but that's what comes to mind.

And I feel your frustration. I'm so sick of all of this.

[Neecy]

125. Re: #10

It's not only the wars that are bankrupting us.

I watched the KC Royals broadcast last night. It was "military heroes night" (filled with really over the top militarism) and they mentioned at the start of the game that it was being broadcast to troops stationed in 155 countries and in ships around the globe.

WTF are we doing basing troops in 155 countries? It's the American Empire that's destroying us, and the wars are an expensive side gig. If we cut half of those military bases we could actually afford things at home, like education and health care and infrastructure. People have no idea how much is being sacrificed here for this far-flung and totally unnecessary Empire.

[Autonomy]

126. self delete

[Autonomy]

129. I'm going to be brutally honest

The picture you paint cannot be solved with a new New Deal. We needed a military-industrial complex, followed by decades of consumerism and increasing reliance on borrowing and spending to achieve those years of relative prosperity. If the balloon that has burst goes back that far, then the Teabaggers could be right; it could be the taxation to pay for the social spending and entitlements that has been the problem all along.

But I don't buy that. What we're seeing is the effect of an unregulated marketplace. That's all. Deregulation is the cause of the economic problem, and re-regulation and stimulus packages will get us out of it. No new New Deal, no perpetual war, no rampant consumer spending necessary, thanks.

[defendandprotect]

144. Whoa . . . this is like saying we need capitalism to survive . . . no we don't . . .

Nor do we need a MIC -- doubled at least by Bush -- to survive.

All of that was intended to improve the bottom line for corporations, not the
lives of ordinary Americans. How many wars since the end of WWII?

How much pollution with possible loss of the planet?

We do need re-regulation and an end to corporations which are "too big to fail" -- we
need to put our anti-trust laws to work.

We've all played MONOPOLY . . . we all know what's wrong.

Down with capitalism -- and corporations that want to rule society rather than work for it --

[Autonomy]

179. We need capitalism to survive

in the manner in which we've become accustom. The alternative has already failed. Do you really feel that secure spouting communist nonsense on this message board? LOL. I don't even remotely take you seriously. Your worldview doesn't have chance in hell of gaining any traction, comrade.

[defendandprotect]

213. Ah, "The Russians are coming!" "Reds under beds" . . . ???

What a joke --

YOU need capitalism --

Democracy doesn't -- in fact, capitalism is antonymous to democracy.

And, now socialism is "communism" . . . ???

UNREGULATED CAPITALISM IS MERELY ORGANIZED CRIME ...

which most of the world has awakened to --

In fact, it is capitalism and communism which have the most in common -- !!!

Here's an old Russian joke . . .

Q: What's the difference between capitalism and communism?

A: Under capitalism, man exploits man

Under communism, it's just the opposite


:think:

[Autonomy]

262. Democracy doesn't need capitalism?

You can't feed your kids with democracy. Voting has precious little with our everyday lives. Perhaps nothing.

You said "down with corporations". This is not the call of "socialism", at least in the sense of Western democracies implementing social programs as enabled by the voters. That's a call for revolution, and to suggest otherwise is mealy-mouthed weasling.

"UNREGULATED CAPITALISM IS MERELY ORGANIZED CRIME"?

That's true. Hence, the regulation I called for in the post with which you had objection. Hmm, in fact the regulation I espoused and you appeared to reject is the closest thing to a solution you offer.

You're not even all fiery rhetoric --

you're half-formed sentences trailing off into --

[Grinchie]

252. There is more to it than that

Capitalism without Compassion is what we are seeing now. It is the result of Psychic disease and a great many Parasites that have corrupted the system. The current vision of Capitalism is like a person with a Hunchback. They are intelligent, hard working, but burdened with a useless hump that takes up valuable nutrients, and makes them unconfortable in bed.

Current Capitalism depends on the transfer of wealth, not an arms length deal, although the people that dismantle entire industries by selling off working companies for a few million dollars for a fleeting pile of money would like to argue that they benefit, while disavowing the thousands of people they put out of work.


Furthermore, current Capitalism uses all sort of incantaions and marketing to appear viable, such as worker productivity and all that rot. If productivity is sailing through the roof, why aren't the workers rewarded for it? Why don't we see lower prices for the goods that are now manufactured by robots that pay for themselves in 3 months?

No, the Capitalist culture is corrupted and diseased. I grew up in a period when Capitalism took care of its workers and the general welfare of the country. This was destroyed in the 70's and 80's with the utter collapse of the British pound, and their complete failure to control the Econmony, despite all the milton friedmans and economy professor they hired.

We now know that it is all a fraud. It's a sheel game, and the Corporations have gained control of the Government. The only thing different than the rise to Fascism in the 30's, is that this time, they aren't rushing things along. They are content to bide their time, do bits and piesces of what Hitler did over a period od 6 years, but are now willing to allocate more time to the process., who cares whether it is 6 years or 30 years, as long as the end result is complete control over government through economic or corporate control?

We are seeing that our Government is seemingly powerless, or unwill to stand up to the Corporations, and this should scare the hell out of everybody. They can't even tell them to label GMO food! Think about that for a moment. 80% of the people in 1990 wanted GMO food labeled, but the Corporations were able to kill it, bury it, and erase the history books regarding the attempt. It's almost as it George Orwell's 1984 is alive and well in the MSM, and declared Labeling an UNWORD. If we can't get a simple thing such as the labeling to GMO in our food supply, then what can we expect to ever get past the Corporate watchdogs?

It's not capitalism anymore. It's a means of control for Society.

[live love laugh]

148. "There is little being done to keep people in their homes who can't afford to pay their mortgages."

Yup.

Glut of homes on market--including mine for 16 months.

Nobody's buying.

[Grinchie]

216. Rents are falling like a rock too, or they will be soon.

The sheer mass of rentals on the market in the East Bay is staggering. And this is time time that people get settled in for school and stuff.

The volume is increasing weekly and normal rental rates are being passed over as well. This is the third wave coming, and despite the cheerleaders, there are more foreclosure notices in the pipeline, thus the recent announcement that the Fed will probably keep the Fed Rate where it is, meaning more free money for the banks to keep hiding their toxic assets a little while longer until the next batch of Alt-A and Prime mortgages get ground up and spit out.

[New Dawn]

149. Exactly, there can not be "a recovery" when jobs and businesses are still disappearing en masse!

[AllentownJake]

152. Love your avatar

[Number23]

155. lol This non-recovery has apparently spread to the rest of the world.

The Aussie dollar is at the highest it's been in almost a year caused by the (wait for it!!!) greater than expected jobs report and RECOVERY of the US markets. http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25908155-31037,00.html

Asian markets are experiencing the same non-recovery - "Asian markets inched up to an 11-month high Monday on mounting evidence that the global economic recovery is picking up speed" http://www.cnbc.com/id/32261995

In fact most markets in the entire WORLD are suffering from your non-recovery!
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h3kgMAkbLwyfxBdjzw8Pc4KZ7DhQD99TC3FG0
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124986136949918099.html
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=307744&version=1&template_id=48&parent_id=28

Are things great? Nope. Are they getting better? It sure seems that way.

It's certainly your choice to not see what's in front of you. And it's apparently the choice of the 65 people who rec'd this foolishness not to see it either. Me, I choose differently. :)

Kicked and UNrecommended

[AllentownJake]

156. It's higher than 65 recs actually

Under the old rec/unrec system it would be at about at least 80

Not complaining. If people weren't rec/unrec well there would be not discussion and I've been educated by the discussion on this thread to a few things.

As for the stock markets...they are good to see where people are placing their bets.

BTW

I'd love to be wrong.

[ProSense]

157. "BTW...I'd love to be wrong."

definitively


:rofl:

[ProSense]

158. Yup,

You're wrong

[Name removed]

211. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AllentownJake]

159. BTW to ignored

You got ignored for taking a debate I had on this thread to another thread where I was critical of a grassroots strategy not a policy.

[ProSense]

161. What?

:rofl:

[HamdenRice]

231. "experiencing the same non-recovery"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dag, you need a job writing for the Daily Show!!11!#

[johnaries]

164. Sorry, but I disagree with your assessment

as do many top economists, including Paul Krugman:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6263817

[AllentownJake]

168. I hope I'm wrong

This would be something I'd rejoice in being stupid over.

[OwnedByFerrets]

165. Somebody had to say it...ty for being the ONE.

[Kievan Rus]

166. It's better than what we'd have gotten with McSame as POTUS

Everything hasn't run as smoothly as I would have hoped for, but it's certainly better than four (or eight) more years of failed Reaganomics and Dubyanomics if McSame would have been elected President.

[AllentownJake]

167. Totally agree n/t

[Barack_America]

169. If only Obama had run on "Hey, I'm not McCain"...

...instead of a promise of "Change we can believe in". Then I would cut him more slack.

[AllentownJake]

170. Sigh

It is not all his fault, I don't believe he fully understood what a vipers nest his colleagues were. 13 of them in his own caucus.

[Barack_America]

173. I have too much confidence in his political skill...

...to imagine him a mere victim of circumstance in this situation.

How can someone go from besting the mighty Clinton machine in the primaries to being unable to handle a few unruly Democrats? No, it cannot be. If health care reform fails it will be because Obama let it fail.

[AllentownJake]

174. This is a bad sign

That people like you and I are thinking these things.

[Barack_America]

223. Yes, it is a bad sign.

I don't think that Obama just never intended to reform health care, that we were intentionally mislead.

I think that his advisors are telling him that what health care may add to the deficit will be a political liability in the wake of the stimulus.

So it's a political calculation...on an issue that will put them on the wrong side of history, along with the people who sat on the sidelines during the slavery and civil rights debates.

That is my very cynical view of the situation. And the health industry lobby factors in there too, of course, but I suspect at the WH the lobbyists may be secondary to the deficit issue.

[AllentownJake]

230. Rick Warren and Geithner is when I started to get scared

The more time goes on the more founded my fears were.

[Name removed]

244. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Grinchie]

217. He didn't best the mighty Clinton machine, he was just a second horse of the DLC

Both bought and sold, marketed and put on display similar to American Idol. Who will America pick?

Will it be John McGrumpyface, Hillary, I was dodging Sniper Bullets, or Obama, Change we can believe in.

I'm convinced that they were just hedging their bets because Hillary was doing so poorly. So in comes Obama as the second horse for the win. Then the DLC was brought in lock stock and barrel for the spoils, with Hillary in a position to direct Foreign Policy? Good god, she would put a crack addict to sleep with her droning, say nothing politspeak.

So, they got what they wanted. DLC and the Corporations are in full control, and somehow it seems like the same inability to govern remains... How convenient.

If Health Care is shot down, then Hillary will be vindicated by saying, see? I told you it was hard! and be ready to be preened for some future political role.

It's not up to Obama to make it win or let it fail. He is just the charismatic spokesmen current speaking on behalf of the clever Corporations that financed his marketing campaign and are now reaping the rewards of Clinton Part Deux.

[ProSense]

228. "Will it be John McGrumpyface, Hillary, I was dodging Sniper Bullets, or Obama, Change we can..."

I'm convinced that they were just hedging their bets because Hillary was doing so poorly. So in comes Obama as the second horse for the win. Then the DLC was brought in lock stock and barrel for the spoils, with Hillary in a position to direct Foreign Policy? Good god, she would put a crack addict to sleep with her droning, say nothing politspeak.

Telling.

[JVS]

175. You think he was unaware of conflict among his democratic colleagues after the longest primary war..

in decades?

[Seen the light]

171. Pitch-perfect post, KR

[change_notfinetuning]

178. The recovery is for those who have lobbyists. Sorry folks . . .

but this is not even fine tuning. This is business as usual. Wall Street was bailed out and the stock market is on a roll. Whoopee!

For real people, real Americans, things continue to worsen. That is not to say that it wouldn't be worse if McCain won, so all you pompom wavers can hold your bile. Sotomayor is the proof of that. But this recovery, such as it is referred to, is one that has seen the goodies restored to the haves, while the American people who have been victimized by Reaganomics trickle-down bullshit are left to suffer the injuries caused by unconscionable greed, and continue to live with trickle-down economics. And we will continue to suffer from that psychological disorder, GREED, that will eventually be recognized as abnormal behavior, and treated accordingly.

If you want to celebrate the drop in unemployment from 9.5% to 9.4%, far be it from me to stand in your way. In the meantime, the good jobs disappear and people are underemployed, the wars continue unabated, the safety net vanishes, and the chess master is content to capture pawns. And the band plays on. Wave pompoms here.

[leftstreet]

181. Welcome to DU!

Nicely said

:thumbsup:

[HARD_PLANET]

180. HI EVERYBODY *** IAM A NEWBIE ***

HOW DO YOU POST TOPIC'S? :toast: 

[Jennicut]

186. Wow I sure would not have picked this time to be President right now

but Obama did so he is stuck with this. Its almost overwhelming when you think about it, and trying to reform JUST the health care system is proving near impossible with so many entrenched interests even in the Dem party (we all know about the Blue Dogs). I think Obama tried to save the country from totally collapsing and that was a good first step. But trying to completely overhaul anything else...I have already given up on it. Its not necessarily Obama's fault but if he cannot control the Dems in his party then he will be blamed for it. I am pretty much giving up on anything positive happening as many on the left won't support him because he does not go far enough on reforms, the right hates him and thinks he has gone too far, and any one left in the middle is lost and confused.

[ProSense]

191. Sums it up the gist of all of these posts nicely

Obama has failed.

Personally, I sense a desperation from the Obama has failed crowed. The economy hasn't stabilized despite what the economists say, and health care has failed despite a frantic GOP/insurance industry/disgruntled left effort to kill it.

[Jennicut]

193. I give up Prosense. I just can't do it anymore.

I think the town hall violence did it too me. I have no fight left.

[ProSense]

196. Don't give up.

Obama will not break. The naysayers are desperately trying to shift the dynamic to impact the elections. I really think some on the left (those who have always had an ulterior motive) believe that the constant negativity will bring him down. They're hoping that he is weakened for a challenge. Others are simply trying to create the impression that Obama isn't a good president.

The right is losing ground, and they too are desperate to see Obama fail. That is all the wingnuts are about.

They will not break him.

[Jennicut]

198. I know but it just seems impossible lately

One poster just told me on another post that the Dems are secretly working with the Rethugs at the town hall meetings to make health care reform fail. Its crazy, nutty stuff and yet its on DU.

"The Dem's are trying to get out of this and need to blame the Repubs

If you can't see that, you must be very young.

Americans want single payer healthcare.
The politicians know this.
Trot out a bunch of nutters on teevee who claim Americans DON'T want single payer.


Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

It's how the two parties ALWAYS do it.


It's Harry and Louise Part 2, only no one has to actually pay for the commercials"

What do you say to that? The Rethugs are not even talking about single payer, they are talking about limited public option.

[ProSense]

200. What do you say to

I hope the RW succeed in killing this bill?

Yup, posted by someone on the left.

These people are not going to ever contribute to advancing anything Obama and the Dems try to achieve. As far as I'm concerned, they're are as irrelevant as the wingnuts.

[Jennicut]

202. Some are acting very nutty lately.

[snake in the grass]

188. There's nothing more to say on this. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

203. all any of us can do is hang on as best we can as we are taken along for the ride

maybe there really IS something about the whole 21/12/2112 thing that they aren't telling us...:shrug:

[mother earth]

218. I agree with all you said. This admin has to be forward

thinking and not status quo, we have been band-aided and it has only slowed the sinkhole. If we don't stop this country from bleeding jobs and put an end to outsourcing and importing cheap labor, than our way of life will not recover, it will sink further.

It's time for unprecedented action, a service economy is not going to do it, it simply means more slave labor globally at the disposition of the bums that brought us this fiasco. We have given over our power to the greedy corporation and we are witnessing the result. Our "owners" will allow us to be "service" vendors, how nice for them, that way they are free to enslave workers in countries that do not have labor laws and do not care about the environment or their people. China wins the manufacturing role at the expense of its own people, and the expense of humanity, but who cares right?

Profits over people must become a way of the past. Corrupt officials and politicians must be ousted and never allowed back in gov't roles of any kind, campaign finance and auditable elections must be tackled.

[SpiralHawk]

219. The reason for all this: Republicon VooDoo Economics

Boy, was that phrase ever right on when it was first uttered, as well as today...

VooDoo Frikkin Republicon Economics - Ptoooey.

[Prism]

220. Interesting thread

I admire you and others for attempting to slice through the propaganda and trying to understand our current economic structure. I've given up trying to discuss economic policy around here. Links posted that are barely read by the poster (and almost never understood), accusations of ulterior motives, rampant hypocrisy (is the MSM gospel or satan incarnate, because this changes minute to minute). Now the stock market is the all-wise, all-knowing creature that is the honest harbringer of all good news and things to come?

And yet, if you question any of this, you're the right-winger.

It's a funny world we live in.

The economy, at this point, reminds me a bit of the Titanic after it breaks in two. The structure snaps, the bow goes under, but the stern is pulled high into the air. For the briefest of moments, it's floating. Hope grows.

Now, we've people running around desperately, screaming to anyone that would hear "It's floating! We're saved! Why will you not recognize that the stern is floating? Your constant negativism is going to cause all of this to sink!"

All of this, simply because there is a new captain now.

And, of course, look at the accusations of bad motive. "They want to ruin Obama!!!!!!"

No. We want an economy that works for average working Americans. We want the government to send us lifeboats instead of rowing the first class passengers away while emptily promising to come back for the rest of us.

So much of this transparently isn't about the economy or workers or the poor or the real, rusting rot that's currently undergirding our system. This is about keeping a good image of a politician. Which should come about seventh on our list of things to do, but for them, it is first, always, and only.

These people don't give a shit about those currently suffering. They only cared under Bush because it was Bush. Now that it is not, their problems are over. Meanwhile, ours may have only begun.

[Grinchie]

253. Well said, the Cheerleaders seem driven by emotion rather than hard facts

and first hand observation. I'm always curious at how these Bubble Boys live and see the world. It's like they never go out into the real world and actually drive around the cities or farmlands and taking notes of how things change. It's like they never get a chance to see the 1,300,000 Sqaure feet of Warehouse space for sale, complete with it's own private railroad spur, only a few miles from Silicon Valley. I guess they don't notice that there are several dozen similar properites, all withing a few minutes of each other.

Or maybe they are trained not to see the thousands of For Lease signs on both residental apartments or business properties.

Perhaps they would rather look at the macro view of Green Shoots, while individual states lay off thousands of worker due to massive bedget shortfalls, destroying another segment of employment that was once thought of a reasonably secure.

I guess they don't pay attention to the real property tax rolls, or the massive drops from real property tax revenue occuring all over the country. One would have to be blind to not notice this.

Perhaps they can't afford the fuel, or don't have a car to be able to drive into the rural areas and see the thousands of small farms and ranchettes that have for sale signs on them. Nor do they actually look at the prices and see that while they are depressed, they are unsustainable without jobs and a more vibrant economy. The only people that are doing well right now are the ones that own everything outright, and are out of debt.

Nobody can afford to go back into debt anymore, and the banks aren't making it easy for those that have the guts to go against the truly scary economic environment we see currently.

The cheerleaders, with all the accusations they fling are no different than any other Propagandist that trys to prevent facts and reality from spoiling their version of reality that everyone must believe in. They hate facts, and will use "Patriotism" of "Group Membership" as a means to demonize the bearer of bad news.

As I said in a previous post. the American Public sat around with it thumb up it's ass while the Bush Propagandists ran amok. We watched and learned to identify the pattern, and were shocked to find that these tactics have been around since the 1920's. As more people hear the droning whine of the Propaganda machine, they are better equipped to recognize the patterns, and subconsciously call out their Bullshit almost instinctively. They are a group of creatures faced with extinvction. They have been tagged, Named, Catalogued, and their behavior is written in manuals for future identification. They are nothing more than trained Parrots, working for some interest.

[Junkdrawer]

224. Agree 100% - K&R

[caseymoz]

229. K & R for the necessary bad news.

The fact is, though, you can somewhat float an economy with optimism. That only goes so far. This economy is far from structurally sound.

[earth mom]

237. There it is. The Truth. nt

[DCBob]

242. First of all we are not in a depression.. not even close.

We were heading that way but things have begun to stabilize. Of course there are huge underlying problems that will continue to cause problems and we may never recover completely, in fact we don't want to go back to what we were -- that economy is unsustainable. But it's not a depression. During the Great Depression in the 1930's unemployment increased to 25% and GDP decreased by over 30%. We are nowhere near those levels.

[Grinchie]

247. Oh man, I pity your naivete

So, I assume that you think that 1.4 trillion dollars, lumbering through the economy, printed out of thin air, but backed by nothing other than the promise of about $18,000 of YOUR labor is not got to elevate the numbers a tad?

Sorry charlie, but in case you forget, the Commercial Real Estate Sector is on Dialysis at the moment, and the Bailout Bubble will soon collapse. You really think they can keep Bailing out huge failures by turning them into historical failures with Monopoly Money?

We have not even reached the bottom of the Housing Market collapse. There are several years of inventory sitting empty, breeding millions of mosquitos in green, stagnant swimming pools, and your singing Happy Days are Here Again, but it will be different.

For those that own their own homes, they are tied with a ball and chain to this liability for years to come. Commercial real estate is currently in the third years of contraction, and their is no end in sight. It has yet to be reported on in any substantial manner, but just wait. It's coming, and with a vengeance. There is nothing that leads me to beleieve that Business Property Lending was not just as loose a the Residential lending market, and in most part, was driven by it as a symbiotic organism.

Then, as some have written, there is the Bailout Bubble. This growth is not based on jobs, but of funny money, based on debt, and backed by nothing. It's kind of like the Cash for Clunkers program. Quick fix, but runs out and people are shit out of luck. So you got a great new car, fine. But how are you going to buy the fuel, pay registration fee's, insure it, maintain it, etc when you don't have a job.

I'm sure you'll be comfortable driving to job interviews, but you gotta pay the Oil companies and the Parking Lot attendants you know.

Meanwhile, States like California and Hawaii are bankrupt and laying off huge numbers of state employee's, closing parks, reducing in home care for the elderly, cutting back on law enforcment for trivial infractions, like assault and battery, leaving the populace to fend for themselves.

Yep, things are looking great aren't they? The unemployment figures are fake. It all part of the fraud that has been running since Reagan diverted money to the Military Industrial complex.

Don't take this as a personal attack, but I think you are smart enough to take this information a question all this happy talk and do a deeper review of the primary fundamentals that need to clean up before we can start talking about real turnarounds. They count on you not having the complete picture, and they absolutely depend on Millers Law to keep people confused and uninformed.

I simply do not agree with the happy talk. We got into this mess by not paying attention to fundamentals, and becoming confused by unecessary complexity by the Moneylenders. We were sold a bill of goods, such as Credit Ratings, which benefit the well off, and impose huge burdens on the not so well off. We have allowed the culture of the Payday Loan and Car Title Scams to prey upon the economically uneducated. We have sold people that Debt is Money, when it is merely the transfer of wealth.

We have taught people to worship money, when it is nothing more than a tool used to build things with. Real wealth stands the test of time, and does not devalue itself 15% a year.

We have government policies that make it useless to save money, which is OK, because inflation would destroy it anyway.

[DCBob]

248. So do you think we are in a depression...

or are you just simply depressed?

[Grinchie]

249. I think we are just starting into the depression, yes.

As for me, I'm not depressed. I'm very happy to be entering the rapids with all my safety equipment, and lifelines are stationed on the shore, ready to throw me a rope if I need one.

I have scouted the rapids of what is left of the economy, and have mapped out my route of least risk. I depend very little on this so called Economy for my daily existence, and I provide most things for myself. I can endure almost anything that comes my way, but I'm not going to let other people be fooled by the rhetoric of the propaganda machine, nor will I let the Propaganda be repeated without at least bringing for the key fundamentals that they have skillfully omitted in order to make their opinion seem more believable.

People are unprepared for the coming cataracts. They are floating towards a waterfall and the pilot of the boat says the roar in the distance is just some tributary waterfal in a side canyon.

The facts are out there. I am not making any of this stuff up. The sheer size of the fraud revelealed so far is just the tip of the iceberg that is about to roll over and expose its bottom half. You might want to move back to a safe distance before this occurs, because you might be caught in the backwash. The common man is excluded from the Political smoke filled rooms, and you know it.

To be honest, times are pretty good right now for me. Many people in duress are trying to sell their crap to get a few dollars, and are finding that none of it is worth much to anyone other than themselves. They have this strange belief that a slad shooter will be a hot seller at the yard sale, while grandpas tools are sold for pennies a pound because they are a little rusty, seemingly worn out, and heavv as hell. Thats where I come in, and save these tools from destruction and build up my arsenal of essential tools everyone used to own, until the Corporation sold everyone on Generators, Power saws, and cordless electric drills. Lot's of houselhold are cleaning out due to foreclosure, and treasures are appearing daily. I find it ironic, that I was once in the same boat as these people, but they took my property at the peak of the bubble and sold it off for the benefit of the creditors. I was producing tons of Organic fruit, but that didn't matter, the highest and best use was deemed real estate speculation, so they destroyed a working farm. They sold it at auction for many times what I paid for it, paid off my debts, and left me with all of my equipment, and a pile of cash. Instead of selling all my equipment, I stored it and then retrieved it after I found another tract, and was immediately able to develop the property into a productive agroforest. I am out of debt, paid less than 1/6 of the county appraised value for the land, and own everything outright. I have a pile of cash that just sits in a safe deposit box for emergency, but most of my wealth is in ag production, my property, and the ability and skills to create just about anythng I want with my own two hands, except of course, a cell phone or mp3 player, or another high tech device, but those are luxuries, and nobody else can do it either, so I can live with that.

Of course, these items are not for the lazy couch potato, and really only are desirable to people like me that have a large tract of land, ample resources, and sustainable agriculture already established. The city folk don't have many choices when the utilities get shut off or rationed, the food on the shelves becomes harder to come by, and the once copious flow of plastic crap from China disappears.

The last 9 months have been very rewarding indeed. I am now very well equipped with tools that most thieves wouldn't know what to do with, let alone steal. They just don't teach people these things anymore.

[DCBob]

255. The OP said we are in a depression. My point is that we are not, far from it..

Whether or not we are heading for one down the road someday is pure conjecture. Obviously there are problems ahead but nobody knows how this willl turn out. It is much too complex for anyone to predict.

[Grinchie]

263. Unless they abolish money, which I doubt, the Fraud has to be cleaned out

I know that a lot of people a ethically challenged, and will play the game simply because it's the only game in town. Perhaps you are one of those people that just conform to whatever the Government lays out for you.

That's your privilege, but if you believe in law, honesty, integrity, then going along and conforming to a broken system is not going to make you very happy. You may have the illusion of comfort, but deep down, you are repressing the knowledge that you are enabling the fraud to continue.

You're right, it is too complex, but that fact remains that the same unsustainable system is remaining propped up through extraordianry means. This may have worked in the past, but today, unless they figure out a way to create raw materials out of energy, we are heading down a bleak path, especially when it comes to rebuilding our rotten, obsolete, Car Centric infrastructure.

Just because people are not on the soup lines today doesn't mean we are not in a depression. People were eating crappy food back then, just as they are now, but they've made that crappy food taste good.

People lost their homes then, and people are losing their homes now as well. I don't see main street recovering, I see it moving backwards. What I'm saying is that we have not cleaned out the junk in the closet yet. It is still shrouded in fog. If standard rules such as contract law remains, then we will be paying through the nose for years, otherwise, the U.S. can reneg on all it's debt, and hide behind all the guns and weaponry it stockpiled over the years.

[TheWatcher]

254. Instead of insulting him, why not try to debate or refute the points he laid out in his post?

Or maybe you simply can't.

And insults is all you have left.

[DCBob]

256. Thanks for the insult.

[TheWatcher]

258. Thanks for proving my point.

Again, if you so strongly disagree with the analysis, provide us with some of your own, (Not links to Mainstream Propaganda) that refutes it.

It's that simple.

[mkultra]

270. his arguments are spun from whole cloth

and he brings no supporting data. He is the one bringing the the refutations, he should start by backing it up.

[TheWatcher]

271. And yours have SO much Credibility because they are backed by herd Mentality Propaganda.

:eyes:

You can't refute anything he says, so you come up with this useless deflection.

Useless waste of time.

Click.

[mkultra]

272. and by facts

which i already brought to the table. After a while it becomes senseless to argue with birther mentality.

[amborin]

273. unfortunately, you're right

I, too, campaigned hard for Obama. This problem is larger and longer term than Obama and his administration can address, especially when we have such a divided and ignorant populace. The only areas that are amenable are Afghanistan and Iraq. Ramping up in the first seems madness, and we can depart Iraq much more quickly than we're doing.