Why is it "uncool" to be an idealist?

[Atticus]

Most of you know what I'm talking about. Idealism is equated with naivete; a foolish, perhaps childish, optimism that "thoughtful adults" have moved beyond.

Well, I'm 60 and I believe in the essential goodness of people. I believe that love is unquestionably the most powerful force and the most enduring truth in the universe. Most of what we recognize as "evil" can be reduced to some species of ignorance or fear and, if we can find our way past those, kindness, generosity, and tolerance are our "default" character traits.

We all---red and yellow, black and white---Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, "pastafarian", whatever---want to love and be loved. We want to be useful and respected. We want our children and grandchildren to have a chance at a good life. And,---I truly believe---we'd all like to leave the world a better place for our having existed.

While greed and violence and bigotry of all stripes may occasionally seem to prevail, their victories are always temporary. Good ALWAYS finds a way to make things right, but it may take a generation or two. Win or lose, we are happiest when we "fight the good fight".

So, why do I feel like I've just confessed to something? Why do I still have to deal with "You should know better" and "You surely don't still believe that" and the incredulous "At YOUR age?"

It seems that world-weary cynicism is considered the only mature, intelligent approach to tackling the world we live in. But, maybe that approach is part of the problem. Why shouldn't we EXPECT honesty and thoughtfulness from our leaders? Why shouldn't we ASSUME that intelligence and integrity will eventually produce social justice? And, why should the knowledge that the "ideal" society will never be achieved prevent us from working towards that goal?

I know I don't always behave or speak like an idealist, but that's mostly "camoflauge"---my idealism often embarrasses me and those I deal with. Why? I think there is a place for fools like me in the national conversation, but I admit to feeling pretty "weird" when I compare what I believe with some of the really sharp analysts and pundits.

[EFerrari]

1. Good question.

Maybe because idealism asks people to hope and that can be pretty scary. :)

[Hosnon]

2. I don't find any idealist "uncool" or "immature" so long as they recognize that

the arc of the universe is looooooooooooooong. And while it does bend towards justice, incremental and practical means are necessary.

[DJ13]

3. Because Idealism threatens the status quo

[ZombieHorde]

4. I am a D&D nerd, so I am out of touch with other people's version of coolness. nt

[scheming daemons]

5. Being an idealist is not incompatible with being a realist

You can understand how things are... but still hope and work for a day when things will be better.

[LostInAnomie]

6. Just playing Devil's advocate here...

... but it's also idealism that drives the other side to believe the "free market" is the solution to everything. It's idealism that makes it impossible to ever have a productive conversation about gun legislation. It's idealism that drives the religious right. It's idealism that drives the suicide bomber. It's idealism that causes people to resist reasonable compromise.

Idealism isn't necessarily a good thing.

[EFerrari]

8. They overlap but you're confusing an idealist with an idealogue.

An idealist can imagine a better situation.

An idealogue is unable to consider the alternatives.

[LostInAnomie]

10. One man's idealist is another man's idealogue.

The gun nut, the free market purist, the religious fundamentalist can imagine alternatives. They just find them unacceptable because of their ideals.

I can imagine a health care system where private insurers are the only game in town, but I find that exploitative and unacceptable. The other side can imagine our solution but feel the same way about it.

[EFerrari]

12. Idealist doesn't have the coercive valence ideologue does. n/t

[patrice]

23. They are the same, except for the extent to which one agrees with whatever the idea is.

Idealist must remain as obdurate as any idealogue, otherwise the idea becomes less idealistic.

[EFerrari]

25. The argument over these words duplicates the argument of the OP!

lol

:hi:

[Oregone]

7. Because your ideas contradict those of politicians pretending to care

And thereby, challenge the illusion

[AuntPatsy]

9. I don't think it's uncool. I do wish I had your faith in the human race as a whole but I no longer

do and if anything I am simply jealous that you are still able to possess that...I know there are good people but not really many.

[NYC_SKP]

11. Not uncool.

I'm an idealist with respect with what can be, and this idealism drives my actions.

I'm a realist with respect with the timeframe and circumstances under which an ideal can be realized.

for example:

I believe all kids in a juvenile hall classroom can be successful and love learning.

I realize that most of them will become victims of circumstances, that I can't assist them in a limited time frame to persevere after release.

My idealism made it possible to go and work successfully with these kids, without it I'd have been a shitty teacher.

Never stop dreaming...

[bridgit]

13. 'idealist' can be seen as right in there with: utopian, pipe dreaming & rose colored glasses...

When what is germane, practical, and funded often scoots right around the sometime ideal. I'm an idealist in spite of it all, and I suggest others come along with you & me. But neither would I care to be caught on the teeter-totter downside found in def #2 just to be consider an idealist

idealist

1. a person who cherishes or pursues high or noble principles, purposes, goals, etc.
2. a visionary or impractical person.
3. a person who represents things as they might or should be rather than as they are.
4. a writer or artist who treats subjects imaginatively.
5. a person who accepts the doctrines of idealism

I'm in the performing arts so it's easy to see 'the ideal' unfolding before people that recognize and appreciate it as such...but it does take allot of detailed, unglamorous, nose-to-the-grindstone work. The crowd cheers, laughs, cries, kids go "Yay!" we stand round after sipping/eating spendy wine & cheese. A facet of the ideal is viewed and it's back for most...

...

...

...

To the gas and the oil and the rubber and the road that I swear is as hard as some people's heads. Though I do think it would be ideal to see RW neomoran dunder-heads in so few numbers as to be a nuisance upon idealism no longer

edit: :blush:

[Bluerthanblue]

14. i don't know-

but i'm glad you don't let it stop you.

:hi:

and i agree with what you have said so well here.

:grouphug:

[Dogmudgeon]

15. The Great Hipster Anxiety

... is that the world will see them for what they fear that they are: weak, gullible, stupid, and lowly.

Vulnerable.

Hipness is the intellectual struggle against that, a kind of high-class machismo.

Idealism admits vulnerability, and ANYTHING that does so is a profound threat to the Hipster.

Idealism. Trust. Sentimentality. Love. Commitment. Play. Optimism. Weeping. "Let them be anathema!"

Hipness is the great corrupting seed of fear among the intelligent, the progressive, and the questioning. It is the comfort of the cynic, the religion of the atheist, the faith of the skeptic, the serious business of those who ridicule, the unending and unfunny comedy routine of the eternally snarky, the ultimate inside reference of the culture vulture. It is Nietzsche for the back bench, Baudrillard for those who revere the One True and Real simulacrum.

The Great Hipster Anxiety is that the world will know that they are lame.

And laugh at them.

And laugh at them.

Alas, I have sussed out Hipness, and must proclaim myself to be un-hip. And aren't I hip for thinking so?

--d!

[SidneyCarton]

28. +1

I wish I could rec this reply.

[voc]

16. Glad you are on this board...

because once upon a time in the not too distant past,
I still wanted to believe in the goodness of mankind.
The cynic/realist in me usually wins out,however.
Fear is contagious, and courage is in short supply.

[patrice]

17. Because an idea can be anything, ANY idea. Your idealism = Rush Limbaugh's idealism. The connection

between a given idea at the heart of an "idealism" and the concrete phenomenal world is not primary in idealism, because it's the idea that is primary. Since the empirical connection is secondary to the idea, any idea is as valid as any other idea. There is, thus, no grounds upon which my idealism can establish itself against the Rush Limbaugh's idealism.

[Wednesdays]

18. What, exactly, is Rush Limbaugh's idealism?

:shrug:

[patrice]

20. A perfectly White culture in which men have absolute power, no one pays taxes

for anything that would constitute Social or Economic Justice. Our broadcasting systems speak nothing but right wing extremism. The U.S. goes to war whenever it feels like it and wins easily.

THIS is the perfect, the Ideal, world in Rush Limbaugh's mind.

The conventional use of the word "ideal" associates it with perfection that exists independently of experience. Because reality is not essential, that could be ANY "perfection," not necessarily yours.

Since there is no central criteria upon which to anchor the concept (any person can have any idea) all ideas are equal.

[patrice]

21. P.S. Since the empirical connection does not matter there are no grounds to say RL's idealism isevil

[EFerrari]

26. But, we don't speak in vacuum. The word isn't a free floating signifier.

It happens in a context. "Rush is quite the idealist" said by me to you here is recognizably ironic.

In that way, it isn't any ideal but the one in the context of our conversation. There must be a word for that but I can't think of it.

[KharmaTrain]

19. It Leads To Endless Frustrations...

I have always admired people who are idealistic...I have tried to remain true to many core beliefs over my life. However, the world isn't a fair place. Its when Idealism runs into reality that the rubber meets the road. When one clings to the idealism and ignores the inequalities of our political systems and corporate structure, it leads to endless frustration and alienation. I've seen too many "idealists" in my time who became so frustrated they became detached..."screw 'em" about those who don't subscribe to their causes. In many ways this attitude in the 80s and 90s allowed the rushpublicans to fill the vacuum and destroy our society.

One always has to have beliefs, but I've learned they always have to be tempered in a world of power games and politics. The ideals shouldn't change, just the attitude of how they fit into the "real world".

[opihimoimoi]

22. Vast amount of peeps in the ME Level and venture to 2nd level to work,

learn, etc....

Unable to Reason, See with clarity,....they cannot comprehend Idealism, Stability, Sustainability, Dente, Peace, Green, Advancing together, etc...

They fear these things...= rejection...disbelief...

They into whining

[alterfurz]

24. bumpersticker box score

[Political Heretic]

27. It is a symptom of the false binary thinking so common in our culture

Idealism as you are describing it is not a problem. And in point of fact, everyone has some kind of ideals or principles of values that inform how the judge decisions and determine what they support or oppose.

The real issue is with the false binary of "practical" vs. "ideal." In reality, there is a spectrum between more pragmatic considerations and the ideals we hold. The trick is to seek a healthy balance by considering the practical realities through the lens of our ideals - to not use the "practical" as an excuse to justify unjustifiable behavior, and to not use the "ideal" as way to excuse not engaging in the difficult work of understanding practical complexities, obstacles, challenges, etc.

People label someone an "idealist" and mean it as a negative when they feel that their "dreaming" does not include any acknolwedgment of the practical realities that hinder such a dream from materializing. People label someone as a "cynic" when they feel that their critical observations of concrete-specific realities is totally detached from any impetus for change or transformation of "what is" to what "might be."

Both criticisms are valid - because idealism as escapism from the challenges of practical reality leads nowhere. But likewise, "pragmatism" that does nothing but reinforce the status quo is contrary with the history of great changes. Great changes come from idealistic campaigns filled with people who both understand the practical realities and its challenges and refuse to accept that as "all there can be."

[Atticus]

29. Cogent, concise, clearly worded.

Four of the best paragraphs on the board today.
Thank you.

[LWolf]

32. I'd use a different word.

"Cynic" isn't a good fit.

I know, because I'm both an idealist, and a cynic. An idealist, in that I prefer to keep my eyes on the prize: the ideal.

A cynic, because I don't believe enough of my fellow humans will do the same to make a difference. I believe the desire to "win" a game, regardless of what you sell-out to win, is stronger in most people. I believe that "winning" will trump principle and integrity every time. A cynic, because, regardless of the amount of passionate rhetoric, when push comes to shove, I don't believe most people will be there.

"Pragmatist" might be better, although that's kind of an insult to those pragmatists that just want to find a way to begin to shift reality towards a better direction.

Of course, the real problem is that we don't all define or interpret current realities the same, and we don't all agree on what constitutes "practical" solutions.

:shrug:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

30. Why is it considered evil to be an intellectual?

How many times have I heard conservatives talk about how evil the "ivory tower" intellectuals are, the ones who have actually studied the world and concern themselves with ideas?

I think an idealist is someone who has high aspirations and values. Sometimes those values are unattainable and sometimes the idealist is very uncompromising. But how can being someone dissatisifed with the status quo be a bad thing? I think they help push the debate, if their values make sense.

[LWolf]

31. If there are too many idealists,

the so-called pragmatists can't convince a majority to keep backing down, to keep compromising, to keep reaching out and empowering the worst our nation has to offer.

Too many idealists will shift the seats of power. Those who hold power never give it up voluntarily.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[fascisthunter]

34. those who aren't idealist say it isn't "cool"

don't listen to them