Obama's speech is illogical

[FarCenter]

First he says:

That’s what young people like you are doing every day, all across America.

Young people like Jazmin Perez, from Roma, Texas. Jazmin didn’t speak English when she first started school. Hardly anyone in her hometown went to college, and neither of her parents had gone either. But she worked hard, earned good grades, got a scholarship to Brown University, and is now in graduate school, studying public health, on her way to being Dr. Jazmin Perez.
I’m thinking about Andoni Schultz, from Los Altos, California, who’s fought brain cancer since he was three. He’s endured all sorts of treatments and surgeries, one of which affected his memory, so it took him much longer – hundreds of extra hours – to do his schoolwork. But he never fell behind, and he’s headed to college this fall.

And then there’s Shantell Steve, from my hometown of Chicago, Illinois. Even when bouncing from foster home to foster home in the toughest neighborhoods, she managed to get a job at a local health center; start a program to keep young people out of gangs; and she’s on track to graduate high school with honors and go on to college.

Jazmin, Andoni and Shantell aren’t any different from any of you. They faced challenges in their lives just like you do. But they refused to give up. They chose to take responsibility for their education and set goals for themselves. And I expect all of you to do the same.

Then he says:

I know that sometimes, you get the sense from TV that you can be rich and successful without any hard work -- that your ticket to success is through rapping or basketball or being a reality TV star, when chances are, you’re not going to be any of those things.

Actually, there are more rappers, basketball players, and reality TV stars thant here are Jazmin, Andoni, and Shantells.

The speechwriters who insist on putting in these touchy-feely stories about extraordinary exemplars should be fired. Its bogus enough in things like the State of the Union address, when they have them sit with the First Lady and take a bow, but in this speech it is entirely out of place.

[Joe Fields]

1. you are waaaaaay off base here.....

[NYC_SKP]

5. + (a big number) nt

[theophilus]

You are dead wrong. IMO. Unrec. n/t

[PVnRT]

2. Bunny, pancake, etc.

[Zynx]

3. "Actually, there are more rappers, basketball players, and reality TV stars..."

Ummm....No.

Flatly, no.

[FarCenter]

11. How many people do you think match those in the heart-warming vignetts of personal achievement

that some flunky in the PR section of the White House was assigned to dredge up out of the news clipping files?

Totally, transparently bogus speechwriting.

[Zynx]

13. I bet there are literally several million.

Your cynicism is disgusting.

[Cant trust em]

24. Those people are everywhere.

That's what our country was built on.

[MineralMan]

28. More like totally, transparently bogus OPing.

Either that or your OP is an embarrassingly failed attempt at satire.

[Richardo]

48. It only seems that way because they're all som supremely annoying

Now get off my lawn! /geezer

[Richardo]

49. ..

We geezers tend to repeat ourselves. :blush:

[ddeclue]

4. You FAIL the DU..

[angstlessk]

6. no, there are more children who have hard scrabble lives who outperform

expectations every day...they are just not promoted and do not have a high profile existences like rappers or ball players..you are a fool!

[FarCenter]

30. There may be millions with hardscrabble lives

But the number who have been battling brain cancer since age 3, have a memory deficit, have kept up in school (and who are also actually alive in their senior year) is pretty small.

Same for the other two individuals.

[stray cat]

42. Only 3 perhaps with their names?

[angstlessk]

45. see Sonia Sotomayor..and I arrest my case! n/t

[FarCenter]

51. See list of Hispanic baseball players ... and I rest my case!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hispanic_players_in_Major_League_Baseball

Way more than Hispanic Supreme Court justices.

[Toasterlad]

66. Oh, Now I Get It. It's a Joke. Well Done. I Didn't Get It Til Now.

[blondeatlast]

50. Cites? Sources?

Your ass doesn't qualify as reliable, btw.

[Toasterlad]

65. Not Familiar With the Concept of an Example, Eh?

You must have had too many rappers, basketball stars, and reality TV stars in your school to learn about it.

[Winterblues]

7. Actually, there are more rappers, basketball players, and reality TV stars thant here are Jazmin, An

Link please. I think there are exceptional people by the thousands throughout America that have bucked the odds to become successful just as those three individuals you/Obama named. They were just representative examples of many many of America's youth.

[Zynx]

9. I personally know dozens just in my classes at the University of Wisconsin who have overcome

poverty, severe illness, or early loss of a parent to become quite successful. The OP is a classic case of cynicism gone terminal.

[blondeatlast]

14. "...cynicism gone terminal." Perfect description.

:thumbsup:

[Barack_America]

8. Bulllllshit. You've got it exactly backwards.

I'd rather not share the details of my story, but I am a Jazmin/Andoni/Shantell. To summarize, broken home, public schools, ivy league institution and several postgraduate degrees.

[nolabear]

32. So am I.

Poverty, early death of parent, floundering for a while, postgrad degree and trying to help others overcome hardship.

Believe me, it took just the kind of work that President Obama advocates, and if I'd had an advocate like him I might have done it a lot sooner. I suggest, FarCenter, that you use your copious energy to try to make a difference in some kid's life.

[blondeatlast]

10. How many of those rappers, basketball players, and reality TV stars make

living wages doing the named work?

I think you completely miss the point. Obtuse is illogical, too.

[Lex]

12. Embarassing OP.

Wow.

[sinkingfeeling]

15. What hooey! And what a strange post to find on DU.

[BlooInBloo]

63. If only it were out-of-place on DU. If only.

[nolabear]

16. You're just yanking our cords here, aren't you?

I thought so.

[Curtland1015]

17. Spock you ain't.

[Call Me Wesley]

21. Dang, you just stole my joke!

:hi:

[blogslut]

18. Sigh

There are no words...

[graywarrior]

19. No....no ...no ....wrong .....THIS is illogical!

[redqueen]

20. LOL...

your username is sooooo very fitting.

[CJCRANE]

22. Oh dear nt

[MineralMan]

23. Wow! The fail is strong in your post.

Actually, the numbers of young people who succeed at their careers in spite of hardships so far outnumbers the number of successful rappers and sports figures that your comparison is, err, Ludacris.

Please think before posting. You'll find that your OPs will be far better accepted that way.

This one was moronic.

[gratuitous]

25. Did you type too fast?

I get the feeling that there might be a point lurking somewhere in your post, but I missed it. My mind has raced ahead of my fingers on occasion, and it looks like that may be the case here. Certainly if there are three examples of perservering against long odds, there are more than three rappers, basketball players and TV stars, but I think the three examples stand for many, many more people than just themselves: People who have overcome difficulties to have a successful and satisfying life. And those number far more than the total number of rappers, basketball players and TV stars. That's sort of indisputable, unless someone is willing to make the argument that the only successful and satisfying life is that of a rapper, basketball player or TV star. But that would be a stupid argument.

Want to try again? Because I don't think you've made a very persuasive case with your original post.

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. God, how embarrassing for you that you actually seem to believe this

Oy, it's cringeworthy.

You made a fool of yourself today.

[Gman2]

27. I never liked the anecdotal crap, but people seem to need it.

[TheKentuckian]

29. Shit, you have to work hard to be a baller, a rapper, or an entertainer too

but that isn't the impression you get. You'll change your tune when have to report for 2 a days or spend 300 days a year on the road to play in bars.

[blondeatlast]

34. Very good point. nt

[JuniperLea]

31. You are wrong...

Very painfully wrong.

:eyes:

[blondeatlast]

33. How hard did you work to make this seem cogent to you? I suppose as hard

as it is to maintain a philosphy of "FarCenter."

Teh stoopid is strong in you.

[CJCRANE]

35. These aren't stories

about kids sailing around the world blindfold or climbing Mount Everest on a pogo stick, they're about kids persevering to get good grades, something that's achievable for most of us with a bit of effort.

[pnwmom]

36. In other words, how many ESL, first generation college kids have gone on to college?

How many young people have fought serious illness and disability and gone on to college?

How many kids have survived terrible home/neighborhood situations and gone on to college?


Millions of young people have gone on to college from situations such as these. There are vastly more of these hardworking but invisible success stories than there are rappers, professional sports stars, and television stars.

[charlie]

37. Gads. You're really good at reaching

I'll bet you can scratch your ass by reaching over your shoulder.

[ddeclue]

38. There are 432 players in the NBA - I'll do the math since you can't...

There are 432 players in the NBA, 750 players in Major League Baseball, 1696 players in the NFL, 947 players in the NHL - for the four major sports in the United States that is around 3933 paid professional athletes.

Let us suppose for the sake of argument we throw in NASCAR drivers, professional golfers, air racers, boat racers, jockeys, bicyclists and what have you into the mix and be very liberal in our estimate. At the very best there are probably around 6,000 to 7,000 people who make a millionaire's living off of sports or sports like activities.

The numbers are no doubt worse for having a million selling album or becoming an "A" list Hollywood actor - there are probably no more than a thousand Americans of each category alive today.

Wanna be a successful TV star? Odds are better than being an A list movie actor but not substantially. There are probably no more than a few thousand Americans who can claim to have been a regular on a nationally syndicated TV program at some point in their lives who are alive today.

How about the Great White Way? Broadway Actors are an even smaller group than A list Hollywood actors or TV stars and often all three of these groups overlap.

The Glitterati Class of Athletes and Rock Stars and Movie Stars is a very small group indeed - you are much less likely to make it to the NBA than you are to earn an MBA. Obama's right and the OP just hasn't thought it through.

[Jennicut]

60. Thank you. The #'s don't lie.

[wtmusic]

70. A relatively small percentage of the $6-7000 make a "millionaire's living". nt

[stray cat]

39. Where are your links to the numbers you quote?

ie. How many people who struggle and get a good education versus play professional sports?

[rucky]

40. Spock, set phasers to FAIL

[Fire1]

41. PUT THE PIPE DOWN, DUDE!!! n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

43. too bad for you- and i mean that,

you seem to be emotionally impotent- or bankrupt.

:(

sorry to unrec, but there is no benefit in spreading your emptiness.

[spanone]

44. comedy, right? certainly this is comedy.

nwmhtt

[movonne]

46. wtf..

[Still Blue in PDX]

47. Ridiculous.

I personally know people who were labeled "learning disabled" who have gone on to excel in school and in life, yet not a single rapper or professional athlete do I know.

I do think that professional athletes work very hard. Rappers probably do, too. Most people who are successful are that way through hard work, although it might look easy.

Reality TV show stars? Wouldn't know.

[ddeclue]

75. Been many years but some of the jocks I went to college with ended up going pro.

John Salley lived in my dorm and Mark Price was in some of my classes - As I recall another guy went on to be a defensive linebacker for a while in the NFL but the vast majority of tech's college players never played pro, even with our basketball team.

[Duke Newcombe]

52. Here...fixed this for you...

Actually, there are more self-proclaimed, broke-assed rappers, basketball players, and reality TV stars thant here are Jazmin, Andoni, and Shantells

[Fire1]

58. Much better and far more accurate. n/t

[RoyGBiv]

53. Dumbest. Post. Ever.

That is all.

[ourbluenation]

54. +1

[Morning Dew]

55. Dreamkiller

I know that sometimes, you get the sense from TV that you can be rich and successful without any hard work -- that your ticket to success is through rapping or basketball or being a reality TV star, when chances are, you’re not going to be any of those things.

:sarcasm:

[Mystayya]

56. Errrr.......... your post makes no sense.

[xocet]

57. ...A Conservative by any other Name...

The OP has no links to back anything up: the numbers that the OP wants to use as evidence are only implied.

Let's try to come up with a reasonable approximation of his figures:

30 NBA teams with 15 players - (12 active + 3 inactive) - yield a total of 450 current NBA players.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_Association)

There have been only about 450 reality tv shows ever; assuming this genre could produce 450 individual programs in 1 year and that each show may have a "winner." This yields about 450 reality tv stars a year as an upper limit.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reality_television_programs)

There are about 700 American rappers who are popular enough to merit a Wikipedia entry.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_rappers)

Taken together this yields a total of about 1600 individuals who have achieved some degree of success by participation in rap, in reality tv or in the NBA. Supposing that all these people come out of the same class will give an upper limit to the number successful people per individual class as, in reality, the aforementioned, successful people come from many years - not just one class.

Of course, not all of these individuals are extremely successful: in music, there is the top 40 list; in the NBA, there are the play-offs; and in reality TV, these shows only have a few winners.

Thus, the OP's argument amounts to the statement that the number of success stories of the kind that President Obama mentioned are fewer than 1600 (as an upper limit) in any given year.

How many Medical schools are there?
There are about 150 in the USA. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States)

How many students are in an entering class?
For a large medical program, there are about 150 per year. (http://www.med.wisc.edu/education/md/admissions/about-our-entering-class/107)

Suppose the number that Wisconsin admits is an extreme. Instead, suppose the average is 75 students per institution. Thus, on a yearly basis, the number of medical school students is about 11,300. If 10% of these individuals had a difficult time making it to medical school, that means that there are 1130 people who are like President Obama's example of Jazmin Perez.

By extending this sort of clear and simple analysis, it may be established that the OP's argument is essentially WITHOUT MERIT.

[FarCenter]

68. About 8% of medical students are Hispanic, and only small fraction

of those didn't speak English before entering school and got scholarships to Brown.

Actually, she seems to be in public health in graduate school, and not in medical school.

[Caliman73]

74. Oh well then that changes everything.

Sorry...NOT!!

You don't have to be a doctor to be successful either, you don't even have to go to graduate school, but you do have to have some type of specialized knowledge and some sense of work ethic. That is what the speech was trying to get kids to think about.

What would you prefer he say. "Shit, only 8% of you are gonna go to Medical School anyway so fuck it, don't even bother!!" Would that be inspirational to people who already have obstacles. It is WAY more likely that students can continue their education, get into teaching, nursing school, obtain Master's degrees and do administrative work, or get specialized training to become plumbers, electricians, court reporters or translators.

The point of the speech is that knowledge and training can help you improve your economic situation, but that does not come without effort and planning on the part of the student.

[xocet]

81. Allow me to retort....

That is a fairly weak riposte to my argument.

Even if your further points had contributed to your original argument, you still failed to provide any links to your data. Admittedly, Wikipedia is weak, but it is much better than the absolute vacuum of support that you provide. However, this is a moot point, since your further points do not provide any support to your previous argument.

In this most-recent, extension of your reasoning, you speciously demand that any example of success that is to be allowed to be taken against the total number of rappers, NBA players and reality tv stars must have exactly the same set of hardships as the examples that President Obama mentioned. It should be clear to you that only the three cases mentioned have exactly their own properties. So, your extended argument amounts to the statement that there are more dogs than just Lassie: yours, thus, is a statement which is as obvious as it is irrelevant, since the point being made by President Obama is that hardships (generalized) may be overcome by the individual students (specific) in the audience.

In summary, I fear that I am a fool for arguing with you.

[wickerwoman]

69. Exactly.

I used to teach for the EOF (Educational Opportunity Fund) program which offers scholarships and transitional support programs for the top performing kids at the worst high schools in New Jersey.

Every single one of those kids was first generation in college and many were coming from backgrounds where violence, gangs, drugs, ESL, teen pregnancy, truancy, etc. were rife.

We had about 300-450 students a year, just for one college in one state.

If every state college had this program there would be at least 15,000 to 22,500 Jazmins, Andonis and Shantells every year. And that's not counting private schools and the Ivy Leagues.

[wtmusic]

59. The reviews are in - your post is a steaming pile. nt

[SidneyCarton]

61. Far Center's post is nitpicking, insipid and asinine.

All things considered, I think the President did better with illogical.

[Toasterlad]

62. I Wish I Could Rec Your Post, But There Are Too Many Rappers, Basketball Players and Reality Stars

between me and the monitor, so I can't see where to click. Damn these rappers, basketball players, and reality TV stars! Why must there be so many of them?!

[walldude]

67. It's a socialist plot!

It's all part of Obama's plan to make us a nation of basketball playing rapping socialist reality stars! Run for cover!

[BlooInBloo]

64. Well duh. Because everybody knows that almost all successful black folks are rappers or athletes...

Doesn't EVERYBODY know that?

:rofl:

[FarCenter]

71. Actually, it wasn't a bad speech, except for the bogus rhetorical device

of cherry-picking examples and fallacious argument from the specific to the general.

It's the same technique that the marketing folks use every day. "If Quaker Oats helped Wilford Brimley, it will help you."

Politicians use it all the time. Politician goes and visits a bus factory, gets the speech on the evening news, and the people think this somehow characterizes the economy.

New people use it as well. Fox will trumpet a story about some company laying off a bunch of people, and their viewers will think that this somehow characterizes the economy. This is easy, since layoffs are done in bunches, and hires are done one at a time.

But it's all the same false argument of extrapolating from personal interest stories to deceive the viewer.

[CJCRANE]

73. Good grades

give you more options in life than bad grades, I think most of us know that from personal experience (that has nothing to do with Quaker Oats). And most of us know that working harder means getting better grades, so there's nothing deceptive in saying either of those things.

[xocet]

82. No greater fool than I....

"...cherry-picking examples..."

In a speech that is likely intended to motivate students to work hard, the favoring of examples of success is hardly cherry-picking. If his choice of examples is "...a bogus rhetorical device...", it is hard to know how to describe what manner of rhetorical device your choice would be:

President Obama (in dour, FarCenter-esquian tones):"Yes, Jackie Williams succeeded, but Robert Smith...Robert Smith, had a rough time of it; he studied hard and tried to achieve, but he died slowly and painfully due to grinding poverty, and no one attended his funeral. Ok, everyone, study hard!"

"...fallacious argument from the specific to the general."

President Obama's speech is not a syllogism. Again, the speech likely was intended to incite the students to work hard. Rhetoric and logic are separate subjects with separate purposes. Here is a link for you to consider - http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Trivium.html. From the text of your posts, you would likely benefit by reviewing all branches of the trivium.

[JTFrog]

72. Spock says:

[nini]

76. You obviously missed math and logic classes while in school

"Actually, there are more rappers, basketball players, and reality TV stars thant here are Jazmin, Andoni, and Shantells. " hahahhahahhahahah

Let's say there are 5,000 of those rappers, athletes etc that made it big and that's probably a very generous guess. I'd guess there are millions of kids struggling with personal situations such as poverty, abusive parents, healthy issues, dyslexia, learning disabilities etc... When I took basic math 5,000 was much less than millions - still is.

Touchy feely stories give kids real examples of hard work paying off.

Illogical? Your mirror will show you that.

[nemo137]

77. "Hey, kids, there's structural racism and classism out there, give up now!"

That'd be an awesome speech to give to high-schoolers, instead of telling them to work hard and trusting them to suss out what's happening on their own.

[blondeatlast]

80. But it would make FC so very happy--and that, after all, is all that matters. nt

[Uzybone]

78. think before you post. This is one of the most stupid OPs Ive ever read.

[Brother Buzz]

79. Why don't you knock it off with the negative waves. Woof!

[johnaries]

83. I had this same problem with my former step-son. A very "smart"

young man. In fact, so smart that he didn't feel that he needed to finish High School. So smart, that he felt he didn't need a driver's license. So smart that he felt the world should just give him whatever he wanted because he was so smart.

I tried to teach him some personal responsibility. I tried to teach him to provide for his own children. To put his children first. He didn't care.

He dumped his kids in his quest to have lots of bling.

What are we teaching our children?