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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-14-07 09:44 AM
Original message
We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs
http://www.dailypress.com/news/opinion/dp-03101sy0apr14,0,4042435.story?coll=dp-opinion-editorials

A lesson from Vietnam: We should leave Iraq

BILL HOBLER
April 14, 2007

In his opinion piece, "A lesson from Vietnam: Support our troops," April 7, Steven Yedinak drew the wrong lessons from the debacle of Vietnam. I would suggest that he, and all who read this, watch the film, "The Fog of War," or read the book, for the lessons former Sec. of Defense Robert McNamara drew from his Vietnam experience. McNamara can't be categorized as a liberal so I would think that dismissing the following as a part of "liberal media" invalid.

Let me simply list the secretary's 11 lessons. Readers can draw parallels to Iraq for themselves.

"We misjudged then - and we have since - the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries ... and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions."

"We viewed the people and leaders of South Vietnam in terms of our own experience ... We totally misjudged the political forces within the country."

"We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values."
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-14-07 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. tribalism perhaps instead of nationalism
I don't see people uniting under an Iraqi flag but rather sectarian factions. Perhaps an Iraqi nation was a fiction maintained under a ruthless dictator.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-14-07 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Nationalism wasn't really the right word, I guess.
But the sentiment is the same. People in Iraq are fighting for the sake of their identities in whichever group they see themselves as members. Iraq was a nation maintained only under a strong leader. Iraq was always a collection of warring factions each trying to gain power over the others. When in the past a leader from one faction emerged, the other factions united to defeat them.

Hussein and his Baathist Party was able to maintain a status quo of semi-peace by remaining outside of each faction. That's the essence of Baathism--it is a secular philosophy that views all varieties of Islam neutrally and includes each of them. Because of this, Hussein gave some power and equality to each faction, rather than favoring any particular one. The other factions, therefore, while not happy being just one of the group, were not forced to be subservient to their hated rival factions. Therefore, they didn't unite with those rivals to overthrow Husein. So Hussein's violent methods were enough to keep order.

Hussein was violent and bloody, but as we are finding out, Iraq is much more bloody without him. We will never form a good government there, because we don't understand the politics at all. Americans are so sure that democracy is the best form of government they can't understand when other people don't want it. Democracy also means that the majority gets to tell you what to do. America solved that dillema by excluding anyone it didn't like from the Democracy and basically pretending they weren't part of the nation. Ask the Native Americans or African Americans. In that way, we brutally suppressed our factions while pretending we were a government by, for, and of the people. When even that fiction failed in 1860, we fought a bloody war to squash the dissenters.

Eventually, after the European Americans had killed and isolated the Native Americans, and impoverished and/or assimilated African-Americans, they eased up on the violence and rewrote our national history to make us look like a peaceful democracy. That's why our Founder's myths were created in the 19th century--Columbus, the Pilgrims, Thanksgiving, etc. By focusing on these great white settlers and explorers, they could pretend that the people already here were savages who welcomed us at first. Europeans weren't invaders, they were explorers and settlers. That myth was necessary to hide atrocities that make Hussein's gassing of the Kurds look like a gently playground tussle.

Now that whites are slowly becoming a minority of the population as a whole, we are seeing attempts to hang onto power, such as the anti-immigration movements, the horrifying rate of imprisonment of African Americans (not to mention the re-disenfranchisement of African Americans), Imus and Rush, etc.

In the long run Hussein's government had a chance to evolve (probably after he was dead) into a more peaceful, united government, perhaps even a democracy. But rather than pressure him to go in that direction, we just used force to destroy him. Now the Iraqi people have to start over, and we have no idea what to do, and no ability to do it if we could see the way.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-14-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I would phrase your first line differently, and disagree with a lot of the rest.
Edited on Sat Apr-14-07 12:52 PM by igil
People in Iraq are fighting for the groups from which they derive their identities; one can violate honor either individually or by offending one's honor group.

The Iraqi Resurrection Party was originally secular. Then it became an extension of Saddam's own biases and hatreds, a function of his honor and interests. Early on, it included secular everybody. Later, it became increasingly dominated by Tikritis (tribal names for leaders being a no-no, since all the al-Tikritis would be offensive), and by extension other Sunnis. Shi'ites and Kurds were *not* equal to Sunni Arabs.

Early on, Hussein tried to diminish the authority of tribal leaders. He slighted religion. He pushed education. During the '90s, this was reversed: the percentage of kids not in school was higher in '99 than now, a decline that started in the '80s; funds were diverted through tribal leaders--where before they were rivals, now they were co-opted supporters--and tribal identity was again emphasized, this time officially. Many mosques were built; Shi'ite mosques were handed to Sunni imams. Imams overlooked their hatred of Hussein because hatred of Shi'ites and the UN/America was more important--that, and they were funded. Saddam was like Tito was like the USSR 'chairman': When each lost power, the bubbling pot that each had kept the lid on, even while racheting up the heat, boiled over. Tito left the preconditions for a civil war by favoring Serbs, and by not letting the ethnic minorities work out an accommodation; same for Saddam. In the USSR, in the '50s the Russians lorded it over everybody else, and in the '70s the "Ivans" perceived themselves as the victims of reverse-racism. Numerous ethnicities "sat on" mineral wealth. When Gorbie lost power, El'cyn was too weak to do much and autonomous regions in effect became independent; Chechen' exploded; and civil war threatened in numerous places. Fortunately, El'cyn managed, mostly, to prevent fighting.

Democracies *always* involve the majority telling the minority what to do, whether it's Jim Crowe or telling a landlord that he can't *not* rent to an unmarried homosexual mixed-race couple. In its purest form, a democracy is majoritarianism, even if only a minority of the population gets to vote. The US has never actually had that. *Liberal* democracies make an effort to provide rights to the minority, if only by saying they have the same rights as the majority. This, it turns out, is almost entirely a Western idea, and onethat's gotten stronger over time, but many features are similar to some other large empires. By building nation-states they eliminated low-level tribal differences; such a policy is now considered anathema in the trans-national post-nationalist West, but far too enlightened for many states. Building national solidarity where it differed from ethnic solidarity was not easy; just ask France, and for a failed attempt, Spain--with Italy being in between.

Nations and ethnicities need supporting myths. They don't need to be true. Nor are they the province of only white men. The Indians have their own myths, some ancient, some remade in the last two hundred years; the Americans had their own. Both emphasized the uniqueness and justness of their own traditions, and the propriety of their own claim to the land. Look at the Western Shoshone, who have been on their land "forever", even though it's a slam-dunk that they migrated there in the last 700 years, and the Palestinians, some of whom claim not just that they're descended from pre-Israelite tribes, but that those tribes were ethnically Arab and that Arabs originally build Jerusalem. Nice myths, if you can get them. In the West, we have this nice myth borrowed from Arabs that somehow Islam just spread, gleefully welcomed, and that millions of Africans (and Europeans) weren't taken as slaves by Muslims for a thousand years with justification cited from the Qur'aan: The Nation of Islam is partly built on this myth, when Islam spread in Africa sometimes by force, sometimes by having greater prestige, and sometimes because a Muslim couldn't be enslaved--so converting entailed safety. Hindutva wants to claim the Indus civilization for Indic-speaking Hindus; Dravidians (Tamils in particular) want to claim it for Dravidian (Western majority view, I think: Dravidian).

The Indians in New England had their own politics, and didn't perceive themselves as "Indian", just as tribes (after all, there was no nation-state, and ethnic identity was as fragmented as it was in Europe at the time). Some indeed "welcomed" Europeans because it played into their politics. In other cases, native tribes were in a bit of disarray and retreat because of disease. Even in Incas were sharply affected by disease, it seems ... *before any European got to them*. But both N. and S. American Indians were ok with the idea of territorial expansion by conquest, since most of them did it themselves when they could--not just Apaches, Comanches, and Navajo. The "white man's" history has enough examples of native empires and wars of aggression. Not acceptable by current standards, but fair play at the time.

Nations and ethnicities also need myths that determine boundaries--not only are they good, but others are bad. The greater pressure an ethnicity is under, the greater the need for these myths. Arabs love to believe that Jews and Westerners are out to destroy Islam because, well, Jews and Westerners are corrupt; Muslims have it that Xians distorted what Jesus brought. Hindutva's busily trying to stake out claims of Western oppression by stating that Indo-Europeans came from India and the standard tale is a fabrication. Russians hate the US for destroying their empire; and they hate Muslims for oppressing them for centuries. The Chinese claim their lack of glory is through Western oppression--partly true--but ignore how the Chinese empire was built, and what's happening in the extreme south and west and in Tibet. Even my half-brother's Sicilian grandmother could go on for hours how inferior the Calabrese were.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-14-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I'm not actually sure where you are disagreeing, and where you are on a tangent
Edited on Sat Apr-14-07 04:29 PM by jobycom
Overall I'd say you have more trees than forest. Your brief history of Hussein's tribal alliances enhances rather than refuting the point I made, and your summary of "democracy" is roughly the same as mine, only you add a few rose-colored points about our attempts to not oppress the minority. I don't completely agree. I agree we crafted an image of trying to be all-inclusive, and there were certainly strong forces in America who fought to make that image true, but as any trip to a reservation, a former plantation, a museum, or any study of our movement west will show, we were far from being successful, except perhaps in our government-approved high school textbooks. Until the twentieth century the number of citizens who could vote was far less than the number who could not.

And the argument that Native Americans were factionalized and often fought each other has no bearing on what I said, and neither does any discussion of Islam in Africa or of slavery in Africa. Native Americans and the African slaves brought to America were excluded from government and any form of self-determinacy. That's more true of the slaves, since Native Americans were mostly allowed their own government, as long as they moved out of the way of our growing population. If they didn't, as you know, they were often brutally murdered, from the time of Columbus until the 20th Century.

And the fact that all nations and people have Founders' Myths really isn't relevant to any point I made. We created myths, calling them history, that justified our conquest of a land that was already populated. The danger of our myths is that they defeat each other. We have our over-arching myth that America is a land of equality (though that word had different implications in the 18th century than now), freedom, and liberties is in part defeated by our myths that created America as a vast, empty land waiting for white people. One sets a standard, the other says we've already met the standard. These myths also justify, in our minds, our actions against nations like Mexico, Spain, Panama, Hawai'i, Iran, Viet Nam, Iraq, and possibly Iran again. Whether other nations have similar myths or not is hardly relevant.

So I'm really not sure what points you disagreed with in my other posts. You recite a lot of historical and cultural detail (and I commend you on the breadth of your knowledge), but I don't really see where you disagree with my specific points.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-14-07 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. Insurgents for the most part are Iraqi people trying to remove the
infidel.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-14-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. True. At least for some "insurgents".
Unfortunately many of the infidel are Shi'ites, or are merely preventing the establishment of a government by the right people. A person siding with the infidel, even if it's only tacit "siding", is worse than an infidel. And rejecting rule by the righteous is also bad--hence the deaths incurred by the Muslim Scholars Association (certainly a jihadi group in practice), at the hands of the Islamic State of Iraq. Both want to enforce proper Sunni religion on everybody, but they differ in details, such as who would be in charge ... and *that's* the source of more than a couple of the bombings in Anbar province these days.

The kid who was killed and whose body was charred as a result of today's Karbala bombing ... an infidel.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-14-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I was referring to us as the infidel, as we were thousands of years
ago in the crusades.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-14-07 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. Yes. If Americans just had not enlisted...
:shrug:
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-14-07 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. Saw The Same Thing On A Panel Discussion On C-Span Last Month
Hmmm ....
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-14-07 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. Wait a minute, They're willing to fight and die to expel invaders from their homeland?
Those savages!

Ooops, forgot about the ones who are targeting civilians. Some of them are savages. But I won't talk about that, because such logic would lead to the unwelcomed conclusion that they were better off with Saddam.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-15-07 09:57 PM
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11. Deleted message
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