I owe an explanation and apology for my "All you fascists" post. Please read this.

[WilliamPitt]

Whoever came up with the line about best intentions and the road to Hell deserves to have a massive steel statue erected in their honor...so it can be dropped on my head from great height.

I've written and re-written this post more times than I can count. I feel awful about that "All you fascists" thread I put up yesterday, and I sincerely I apologize for it.

Insult or aggravation was not my intent, for whatever that's worth. Simply, I blew it. I dashed off that post without thought or consideration, with content based on incomplete surface impressions written in insensitive haste. I was not targeting those who are pleased by the outcome of the Imus implosion. The post made it seem as if I was, and I'm sorry.

My intent was to send up a small, and in hindsight completely unneccesary, warning flag. It seemed to me, when reading some posts here, that an important point was being lost in the mix. I percieved a sense here that Imus's fate represented a chance to remove other media voices whose opinions we correctly believe to be wrong, ugly and dangerous. Beck was named, and Rush, and Bill-O, and several others besides. Something in the tenor got to me, a fact that only illuminates my errors in this.

Every time those these cretins speak their poisonous lies into huge microphones for vast pay, we are collectively diminished. I don't think it's a reach to say that propagandists of this ilk are directly and personally responsible for thousands of lost lives, for all the deaths that haunt us all, for a long line of butchered humanity which grows by the hour. Their poison enabled it, defended it, championed it, and now struggles to whitewash it. Overcoming their influence is a struggle of titanic importance.

But there is also this. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from speech. Our most fundamental freedom, the right to think and speak those thoughts, is also our sternest challenge.

Simple truth there, but just exactly who the hell am I to preach this to you? It was pure arrogance to imply that you don't already believe what I was trying to say. If I had a dollar for every DUer who has Voltaire's famous defense of speech as their sig quote, and who likewise lives by that creed, I'd get bumped up a whole bunch of tax brackets.

Imus was challenged and defeated in the proper way: through open debate, passionate opinion and public pressure. It wasn't censorship at all, but I became unduly concerned that those other names were turning into a list of targets. I arrogantly jumped onto a soapbox and ran my mouth at the last people on Earth who need sermons about freedom.

I posted hastily and stupidly...and worst of all, seemed to label DUers as fascists in the process with that title. I thought I was being clever with that, and intended to contrast the fascism of our foes with the ideals we try to represent. Instead, I put forth a grave insult because I didn't think before I wrote.

I hope you accept my apology for this. I waded into a heated fray in the worst manner possible: with arrogance, haste and total disregard. The fact that I meant no harm or insult seems pretty farfetched, but it is the truth.

Thanks for reading this.

[Raven]

1. I forgive you, Will but

what would you expect! :-)

[EFerrari]

11. I want my mom to join DU.

lol

:hi:

[Raven]

14. You noticed how objective I am? n/t

[EFerrari]

16. Join the crowd gathering now. Or better, lead it!

:)

[Forkboy]

26. My mom already is a DUer!

With my luck she'd take the opposite side though. :)

[mzmolly]

49. My Mom signed up but never used her account.

Probably a good thing? ;)

[aquart]

66. Mine, too.

She asks me what's going on.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

72. Mine too!

She doesn't post much, but I make sure to send her links to the really good stuff. :D

[orleans]

79. i want my mom to learn how to go on the computer

i also want to win the lottery

i've got better odds at buying the winning ticket!

oh well. here's to moms everywhere!

[EFerrari]

80. Rosa built her machine. I think hers is a reading issue

more than anything. If she could listen and talk instead of read and type, she'd be here. She's always doing 24 things at the same time so, she needs her hands and eyes free. lol

[Jonathan50]

2. I didn't read the thread in question.

But your apology sounds heartfelt and sincere.

No one I think wants to remove the freedom of speech from Limbaugh, et odious al.

We just wish to remove their vast megaphones, something to which they do not have a Constitutional right.

[AngryAmish]

3. apology accepted

[BuyingThyme]

4. I don't suspect many people saw the "fascist" crack

as anything more than one person's attempt to nudge people into thinking about whether or not we were becoming them.

[EFerrari]

15. You know, it made me uncomfortable because I think I disagree

with Will in several ways. But, being uncomfortable often results in thought, so that's okay by me.

lol

:)

[BOSSHOG]

5. I've yet to be offended by anything on DU, but

maybe you are starting a trend. I guess bush will start apologizing any day now.

[Gato Moteado]

22. i'm only offended when.....

....some of my anti-freeper or anti-repuke posts are deemed offensive enough to be deleted. that makes me feel like crying sometimes. have i ever mentioned to you how utterly disgusting freeptards and repukes are? i've been known to even refer to them as human garbage a time or two.

[BOSSHOG]

24. I have settled on referring to them as

ignorant trash constitution hating motherfuckers. How can anyone be offended by the truth?

[Gato Moteado]

36. i would have called them that too......

but it was too much to type and i'm a lousy typist.

but, god, i hate those douchebags.

[Vexatious Ape]

6. No harm felt here.

I don't see any fascism with what happened to Imus. It was capitalism and values. The suits got enough complaints--from people who don't Value bigotry-- that they thought it would hurt their bottom line so they canned the guy. Imus wasn't arrested or fined--he got shit-canned. The government wasn't involved at all thus it's not a 1st Amendment issue. If I said something racist at work I'd get fired too.

[Midlodemocrat]

7. Thanks for this, Will, but I didn't feel as though you were preaching to me.

I didn't take the fascist comment to heart. We simply disagreed.

[Madspirit]

8. Oh Please....

You did nothing wrong. You were a tad harsh but you felt strongly and I see a lot harsher here, believe me. I even disagreed with you but you were not Overly in your post. I agree with what you say in this post. I see danger in silencing any voice we don't agree with. BIG danger. I think Imus got what he deserved and I think it was done correctly...public pressure, etc.
I k&r your apology though I do not think one is necessary.
Lee

[Cha]

9. That's okay..I knew I wasn't a "fascist"

and now thanks to your sweet apology..I know you know that:)

[peace13]

10. I missed the whole thing!

Even so, I understand your frustration and feel your pain about this subject. Peace, Kim

[sandnsea]

12. They should be targets

I cannot friggin' believe that people support turning this into a debate about hip hop, as if the rappers turned Imus into a racist, but squeal like a stuck Limbaugh at turning it into a debate about hate radio and forcing those pigs to clean up or go dead.

This kind of pretzel-logic is exactly why I really have got to go. White America shows its ugly racist head again, and again, doesn't see it.

[EFerrari]

13. This is a conversation we need to have, Will, and I'm glad you

moved it forward.

[mudesi]

17. An apology is not necessary

The purpose of a discussion forum is for people to express their opinions and then have those opinions challenged. There is no reason to apologize for participating.

[Gato Moteado]

18. you hurt my feelings deeply and irreparably....i'm leaving DU because of that very post you brute

just kidding. actually, i never saw the post.

furthermore, i see both sides of the imus debate and it's a sticky one. in the end though, you're right....it was about public outrage that "censored" imus in the end. but the deeper reason was all about sponsorship. the sponsors were afraid to be held accountable by their current and potential clients and customers. media outlets need sponsors more than they need listeners and viewers. that's the bottom line. and that's why we probably will never see the end to the likes of limbaugh's propoganda radio empire. i imagine many of his sponsors don't have anything to sell to the public but are rather corporations that need republican government in place (i.e. companies like haliburton, mcdonnel douglas, etc...you know, the same old military industrial and petroleum thieves).

[Forkboy]

19. That's ok..I never take your posts seriously anyways.

:evilgrin:

J/k :)

I waded into a heated fray in the worst manner possible: with arrogance, haste and total disregard.

That should be every DUers motto!

Or epitaph.

[EFerrari]

23. Or cheer!

"Arrogance, Haste and TOTAL DISREGARD!"

LOL!

:grouphug:

[Forkboy]

25. Hmmmm

I think we should ask Skinner to put it right above the DU banner. :)

:hi:

[EFerrari]

29. He probably already has. We just don't see it.

lol

:hi:

[Forkboy]

31. I never look at that stuff...too busy hurrying to the next flame war.

:D

[mzmolly]

43. Indeed Forkboy.

I waded into a heated fray in the worst manner possible: with arrogance, haste and total disregard.

That should be every DUers motto!

I have sung a few bars of that tune myself. ;) Shhhhhhhhhhhh.

[Forkboy]

55. I know all the words by heart.

:)

:hi:

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

20. God no! Don't apologize! You said EXACTLY what needed to be said

"with arrogance, haste and total disregard." Please, do that more often if those kind of posts are the result. You were in the right, and I hope you continue to be a voice of reason as we toe that fine line...

[Bucky]

21. Another apology thread?

I thought your biannual apology threads came in June and December.

(on edit) This was a joke, of course. I can think of few people less in need of apologizing to DUers. You're certainly not as bad as California Peggy, who really is a facist.

:hide:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

39. HA!

You'd better hide!

:spank: :spank:


And I know you're kidding.......:hug:

[omega minimo]

27. "Overcoming their influence is a struggle of titanic importance."

"Their influence" extends to the easily manipulated, frequently short-sighted skirmishes that ended up pushing your buttons. What can we do about that?

Many of the posts in the other thread and a couple in this one are making it clear that "Overcoming their influence" requires facing who "they" are; understanding the larger force$ that permeate the media and the political process.

Whadya think?

:hi:

[Dora]

28. The way to remove their power is to stop listening to them.

That's a far cry from shutting them up. If a network or a publisher wants to spend their money to put those voices "out there," that's their prerogative. It's my prerogative to refuse to buy shit when I what I need is Shinola.

How do we stop listening to them? Put their voices out of your life. Stop buying their books - even if it's only to be "informed" of their ideology. Check it out from the library, borrow one from a conservative, or just don't read it at all - because really, do you need to fill your mind with that crap? Stop watching their spiritually vampiral television shows and stop supporting their sponsors, even if it means drinking water instead of Monsanto Delite, cooking your own dinner instead of eating out, changing banks, or changing where you shop. Spend your money differently. Do what you can to keep your money away from their flow stream. Boycott advertisers if only for your own peace of mind, never mind what the scoffers and naysayers say.

[senseandsensibility]

30. That's why I didn't respond to your OP

I could only respond in an angry and defensive manner, and I didn't want to. So I decided to wait it out, and this is the result. I kind of thought it would be. Nice apology, nice sentiments, nice self awareness. :)

[undeterred]

32. You should be fired.

:hi:

[xchrom]

33. imus had to answer for imus.

this was the story of one man -- not the whole universe of ''free speech''.

and isn't that the point?

well, almost -- i've commented on several threads that we need to consider what language MEANS today -- in this image age.

when reagan was elected a transformation happened in the republick party megaphone.
conservatives consciously conceived and brought to fruition a coarseness, a crudeness{ anti-intellectual if you like} that we THOUGHT was going away in the seventies.

imus was speaking to the heart and soul -- by design -- of certain americans.

those Americans aren't black, gay, women, asian, etc -- and this isn't by accident. -- and it's CERTAINLY not comedy or entertainment.

not many are going to want to talk about language -- not in 2007 -- not when you can watch a youtube vid or get KO to say it for us.

but in my estimation that's a mistake.

any way no apologies need to me mr pitt -- if you feel better for it -- fine -- but i can't see anything terribly wrong with being honestly angry -- just seems authentic to me.

oh -- one last important point -- no one should be fooled into thinking that Free Speech doesn't have limits -- it does.

[annabanana]

34. funny. . I just thought you were highlighting the difference

between lawful public pressure & shame vs dangerous, unconstitutional legislation against the expression of stupid hurtful bigotry.

(kind of surprised that people felt attacked)

[warren pease]

35. The "Fascists" post was interesting because...

you advocated for the concept of the marketplace of ideas, and its inherent ability to separate validity from hogwash. Which is exactly what exists here on DU, and perhaps nowhere else in modern America. You can read my posts on yesterday's thread if you want to get the long version on the marketplace of ideas -- and my take on why it can't function in contemporary America -- but in sum, I think Imus got what he deserved.

His real sin was being an idiotic bigot in public. Tens of millions in this country happily share his bigotry without suffering any consequences. They just keep it among themselves and don't get busted by the power of 50,000 watts.

And yes, I think Limbaugh, and the nationwide scourge of sponsor-sanctioned hate radio his success has spawned, need to be subject to the same scrutiny as Imus. Somebody on DU compiled a great list of direct quotes from Boortz, Limbaugh, Savage/Weiner, Beck, Coulter et al, all of which are as revolting or worse than Imus' racist crap. And they need to be held accountable for their contributions to the devolution of America.

I've already sent several emails to interested reporters in the Bay Area and elsewhere who agreed that the whole sorry Imus episode provided the perfect context to nail the wingnut hate mongers with their own words. We'll see if any articles result from that. And there's much noise about targeted sponsor boycotts, also a great idea.

If that's stifling free expression, so be it. I'd be inclined to label it an inspired use of the entrenched system, which usually works against progressives to, at long last, produce outcomes consistent with our values.


Fascists R Us.

wp

[MODemocrat]

37. Since I'm not fascist, I didn't take offense

You don't owe an apology to non-fascists, and you certainly don't owe one to the real fascists. But, I appreciate your explanation; and understand your feelings exactly. We all blow our stack sometimes, and say things we regret.

Being racist is terrible, but there are other hurtful things said about most of us women. The way
the republicans for instance are treating Speaker Pelosi, should not have to be tolerated. In the case of most of the republicans like Bush and Cheney, we must consider the source, and realize how
very ignorant they really are. :hi: ;) Speaker Pelosi is brilliant, and that's very hard for Cheney
to deal with.

[InvisibleTouch]

38. I only skimmed your post...

...though admittedly I raised an eyebrow at the title. I've only followed the Imus debacle superficially. But there's a fine balance between censorship/repression of free speech, and allowing media personalities to stand up and incite violence, spread lies and hate speech, and cause direct harm. It's sometimes hard to tell where that line is, and it's often subjective: "I don't want this crap on the air because it spreads proven disinformation and warps people's minds" vs. "I don't want this crap on the air because I disagree with it." It's a dilemma that doesn't always have a straightforward answer.

[Burried News]

40. Sometimes you capture the muse.

Sometimes the Muse captures you.

[Vincardog]

41. Will, I read the FASCIST post. I thought you made your point.

Luckily for me I did not take it personally as I haven't called on anyone to be banned. I just with FAUX Snewz would be labeled correctly as NeoConvict propaganda.

[mzmolly]

42. Will, I think if we all keep in mind that Freedom of speech extends to the bosses

at MSNBC, the sponsors of various programming, and most of all "the people" who tune into various medium, it may be helpful going forward.

I missed your post, but I too had mixed feelings until I considered what I noted above.

Peace

[joshcryer]

44. Irony.

Cute.

[mzmolly]

45. Cryptic.

Odd.

[joshcryer]

47. He apologized...

...for doing something that riled a lot of people up.

Over something about a guy apologizing about riling people up.

[mzmolly]

48. Ahhh, gotcha.

Thanks. ;)

[EstimatedProphet]

46. Apology accepted

I think the whole situation has been very confusing anyway.

[Malikshah]

50. Self-editing is a gift. This is at least number three.

Step back. Read. Permutate, perambulate, perforate even.

Read again.

Post.


Best to you and the valiant cause.

Enjoy the discourse.

[Vox_Reason]

51. I'm late to the party, but...

Is Will apologizing for rightfully lambasting fascists?

If so, why??

[joshcryer]

52. Because it offended some people.

'cause people are so sensitive and stuff.

[Connie_Corleone]

53. I was wondering how long before Will put up another "apology" thread.

Apology accepted...again.

[Rex]

54. I believe ya.

You're in the news business. It might hit home for you more than most of us on DU. No one wants to be put on a 'list'.

[SmokingJacket]

56. "Fascists" may have been inflammatory, but you had a point.

I hate to see anyone shut down that way -- I'd much prefer Imus got kicked off because of his low low ratings... he was disgusting and insulting, and the station has a right to fire people who are disgusting and insulting, but, well... you know. It's a creepy precedent.

(And why is RUSH still on the radio? Maybe because he's actually a Republican, while Imus supported Kerry? Or am I just paranoid...)

[Major Hogwash]

57. I really liked that Woody Gutherie song you included, Will.

I grew up listening to Arlo and someday I'd like to meet him.

"Well, you can get anything you want at Alice's restaurant"

[Breeze54]

58. I already assumed the title was satirical.

Apology accepted but I wasn't offended. ;)

[joshcryer]

59. I say we boycott his books and him from now on!

Use the ignore feature! Spread the word people! This man is dangerous! ;)

[Breeze54]

60. LMAO!

Run for the hills!!!!!!! :rofl:

Cover your eyes!! DO NOT L@@K!!!

He,he,he!!!

[Kingofalldems]

61. Freepers call DUers 'facists'

:rofl:

[VelmaD]

62. I decided to go ahead and say this publicly too...

one of the things I like best about you as a perosn is that when you fuck up publicly you will apologize publicly. Not everyone is willing to apologize when they are wrong or when they say or do something hurtful. Says a lot about you that you are...and it's one of the things that makes me glad to be able to call you a friend.

[demobabe]

63. You can apologize...

...but you're still fired. Leave the DU at once.

kidding! ;)

[july302001]

64. ah, well...

Well, but isn't talk radio all about improving the tenor of political and social discourse in America? :sarcasm:

[Warren Stupidity]

65. Oddly enough you managed to shift my position on this.

Having watched events unfold since the sacking of ignorimus I think that hasty and inflammatory or not, you had a point. Imus deserved what he got, but there seems also to be a sort of j-jackson nip-slip event going on, where indeed the forces of repression and intolerance are seeking to use ignorimus to advance their cause, which is to shut everyone they disagree with up.

[Pale Blue Dot]

67. No problem.

I respect you even more for having the guts to apologize like this.

[chknltl]

68. Had Imus called bush a "Nappy headed ho" on the other hand....

I read that thread and found food for thought there. I felt your choice of the word "fascist" was a bit over the top, you are not a freeper after all. I prefer this thread over that one because as you point out, free speech is important, worth defending...but it really should come with cultural consequences too. I'll defend Imus's right to say what ever he wants AND I agree with those who fired him for saying what he said! This is not stifling free speech in my oppinion...it encourages responsible free speech.

My step kid is living with his mother right now. She is a republican precinct commander. She claims that whenever she sets up a booth at her local conventions she gets accosted by democrat thugs. She has been verbally abused (often), her tables have been overturned and once she was spat on.
(note deliberate little "d" in democrat...I am ashamed to acknowledge these folks as my fellow Democrats)

This lady is an American citizen. She is practicing her right to free speech. It should not matter if we agree with her or not. She deserves to be defended in her right to do what she does by ANY American regardless of their personal political persuasion. This does NOT mean we have to agree with her. This does not mean we have to support her sponsors either, in this case the republican party.

Verbally abusing her may come under free speech, but it accomplishes NOTHING positive for our country...as a matter of fact it further DIVIDES us. One can not communicate anything other than anger through such use of free speech.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if someone from the Democratic Underground could sit in with this lady the next time she set up her booth. Wouldn't it be wonderful if that DUer could intervene when these "thugs" show up and attempt to disrupt this lady from practicing her right to free speech. Wouldn't it be wonderful if all who read these words understood that by defending our "opponents" right to free speech in this way, we are really taking baby steps in re-uniting those who bush and co have so successfully divided!
:patriot:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

69. LOFL. And it got 43 Recommends!

Only 8 on this one so far.

[Joe Fields]

70. Agree. With freedom comes responsibility.

And that means that if you have a public forum, you should be held accountable for what you say.

It is unfortunate, that in this country, too many people allow others to do their thinking for them, ie. Rush, Sean Hannity, et. al.

Those people enjoy the opportunity to shape public opinion. If they abuse their priviledge for personal gain, or for whatever reason they do a grave disservice to all Americans. They can shade the truth to their own end, color it, make it up, and in so doing they can change the public discourse, or invent enemies, or even worse, prop up an illegal and immoral regime.

The answer will never lie in censorship, though. The answer lies in public awareness; a forum and medium where the truth can be told, and the charlatans exposed. I believe this is occuring, slowly, but surely, through the internet, which jounalists, like you, Will, play a very important role. It for sure isn't happening fast enough to suit most of us.

There was a swift public stoning of Don Imus. Maybe he had it coming, but I don't want this country to slide down the slippery slope of censorship. The Rush Limbaughs of this world's days are numbered. Let nature take its course.

[nam78_two]

71. Cool

I totally disagreed with that thread but here's a :kick: and an R for this one....

[Ghost in the Machine]

73. zzzzzzzzzz ZZZZZZZ zzzzzz..... zzzHUH? zzz.. zzzz IM AWAKE!.. zzz

Oh... hiya Will! :hi: Did you say something? It didn't bother me one bit, see... I knew you were talking about the other fascists, not me....

[jobycom]

74. Geeze, you owe us a bigger apology for this long babbling rant.

Just say "Hey, guys, sorry about that fascist thing. Got carried away." Not that you even need to do that, but if you feel you must. :)

[GOPBasher]

75. I didn't read that post, but I have to say,

everyone offended should accept that heartfelt apology.

[wisteria]

76. I take exception with your comments on Imus and this being handled correctly.

I saw no challenge, no debate. I saw passionate comments swayed by the media and I witnessed a media whirlwind with one sided accusations coming at Imus. The on-line polls and general public opinion was running counter to the opinions of many here at DU and Rev. Sharpton. I didn't see one post here directing people to contact the sponsors of Imus' show and ask them to pull advertising. Yet, within two days the sponsors were set to pull out. The advertiser pull outs diminished any true debate and those who tried to defend Imus were not being heard. Why the rush? Why couldn't anyone wait for Imus to meet with the team and for the two week suspension to pass? There was talk of being paid, yet that was not mentioned in anything I read and I suppose what I found missing was a real human element. I saw no forgiveness or compassion. People shockingly claimed to know that Imus wasn't sincere in what he was saying and then to villainies the man further there was the list of all the negatives Imus ever did in his 40 years of broadcasting. No good comments, no balance just negatives. You know, I have said many things in my many years as we all have that may have been unpleasant and if they were the only comments people were exposed too,we wouldn't seem to nice either.

Nope, there was no real debate or humanization in this whole process that did in Imus. It was a mob on a mission that made Imus a scapegoat for all that is wrong and in need of change in broadcasting. No one accusing Imus of the unthinkable and ugly racism, knows Imus personally, but everyone acting as judge and jury convicted the man. He wasn't warned to change his ways, he wasn't given a chance to even apologize and make it right. He was fired before he even had the opportunity to speak face to face with those woman who were the only ones who should have really been offended. And, after listening to him, they forgave him.And, none of them called for his firing before they had an opportunity to meet and speak with each other. They have shown a lot more compassion, understanding and forgiveness than those who convicted and dehumanized him with their misguided anger.

Nope, I don't think this was handled correctly. I wouldn't want to see this ugliness repeated again.

[Bluebear]

78. "It was a mob on a mission that made Imus a scapegoat"!!!!

Ay caramba.

[entanglement]

77. You took a somewhat polemical line, but your intent was quite clear to me

I, for one, didn't interpret your OP as calling DUers fascists. Others might have taken offense, though. :)