The elephant in the room INTERNAL TERRORISM

[nadinbrzezinski]

nobody wants to say it, and every time we have any of these shooting incidents, be it Columbine, the Murrah building (blown up) or today's tragedy, we all search for causes... but none dare say it. What we have in this country is internal terror.

Lets see

Pipe bombs, some placed outside family planning clinics, they fit the classic definition of Terror

The Olympic bomber, yep they said he did for attention, give me a freaking break... he was a white supremacist

The Murrah building, anybody who has read the Turner Diaries knows the recipe and thought behind that one.

Anthrax attack...

Columbine: Those kids were anarchists, and bullied by their peers, yet we blamed it on gaming? It was terror, pure and simple and the way of life at that HS has completely been changed since.

today's horror, well it was the girl friend, we do not go out and kill 31 people because of a girl friend, go ahead call me skeptical... but it is a nice sounding bit of reasoning and far more comfortable than the other one, internal terror.

So it is time we face reality folks. This country has a problem of internal terrorism... yet the MSM, and many on this board, dare not say it.

But once we recognize we have the problem we need to ask the other uncomfortable questions...

Why haven't our fearless leaders AT ALL LEVELS done a thing to curb it?

I'll tell you why? They benefit since it allows them to impose ever more draconian policies instead of asking... why is this happening and most importantly, what can we do about it?

[ananda]

1. who wants to bet that..

.. the shooter at V Tech was medicated?

We have met the terrorists and they are our own fucked up
mental health system.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. That would be another nice excuse

again you do not go kill 31 people just because...

This was a TERRORIST ATTACK plain and simple, enough with the excuses

[bryant69]

3. How would you fight this kind of Terrorism?

Other than getting everybody's medications right.

What power do you want to give the Government to stop people from going crazy and killing their fellow citizens?

Do you believe or assert that the incidents you noted were coordinated with a unified goal in mind?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. We are a nation of 300+ million people

so to answer your qusetion, no they were not coordinated

The Murrah Building happened due to a very specific goal from the militias, as stated in the Turner Diaries, the civil war was supoosed to start THAT way... after a federal building was blown up

The Olympic bomber, he was a white supremacist, you can assume (not that they never interviwed him in that way) that he was pissed that many foreignners were in the country

Columbine, the kids did not believe in any authority, their attack was straight at the authority systems

The bombings (and I may add shootings) at clinics come from Operation Rescue, which might share some elements with the Militias, but not many

How do you fight it?

The first step is to recognize you have a problem

The second is act on it. I will contend that since we have not recognized we have a problem we truly cannot act.

How do you deal with terrorims? In a rational society... you do that with solid police work that does not interfere in the life of citizens, and with the root causes for it. Columbine... well we have truly never dealt with bullies in schools, have we?

Now our fearless leaders will use this to lock down even further becuase that is what they want.

[bryant69]

13. Yeah but isn't that what you want too?

I mean you might want to lock down on different people than him, but you certainly want the government to do more to solve the problem of internal terrorism.

Forgive me if I am misinterpreting you, but I am wary of posts that encourage one to "recognize a problem" without suggesting a solution for said problem.

Bryant

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. No I will use the example of the UK andn the IRA

there were terrible events in London... the society was never locked down

The cameras and the ITV system came far later.

The goal of terrorists is to change our way of life, through fear. I will contend that they have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams

[bryant69]

18. I'm lost here - but I will let it go

Your example of the UK and IRA is well worth considering though.

Bryant

[melody]

4. I made that point on another thread

I think there's a definite connection between the internal war against Americans and these outbreaks of violence.
Couple that with the lack of a security net and you have a tinderbox of endless potential.

[robbyrob79]

5. Its much easier

to blame those people that are another culture, another relgion, and in another part of the world than it is to blame ourselves.


Its like saying 'Osama bin Laden made our bed, now we have to lie in it'.


I guess realizing that the fault for all of this lies in american foreign and domestic policy is something that our president can never admit. He's never failified at anything in his life!

[Xithras]

6. Tragic, but not terrorism.

It's only terrorism if the person performing the terrifying act is doing so to push an ideology of some sort. Religious (You will submit to my God or die). Political (You will change your politics or die). That sort of thing. Social (You will see things my way, or you will die).

When someone does something horrendous without reason, it's not terrorism. Horrific? Of course. But not terrorism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Operation rescue

they are a terrorist organization that has engaged in terrorist acts in the classic sense. Point to me any news coverage refering to them as a terrorist organization

The kids at columbine were anarchists, they engaged in classic terror as well.

The Murrah building was classic terror, following a script that did not follow

Wanna bet that there is more to this shooting (not that they will tell you this) than just a girl friend? Call me cynical

[Xithras]

20. Depends.

If Operation Rescue can be tied to attacks or bombings against clinics, then it certainly is a terrorist organization. If it's just their protesting, it's not terrorism.

The OKC bombing was definitely terrorism. It was an anti-government strike for political reasons.

Columbine was NOT terrorism. While it was a terrifying experience, it was a revenge killing. They weren't trying to change anyones views, they just wanted to kill people they didn't like. Not terrorism.

It's only terrorism if you're pushing something, and the action is designed to help push that ideology.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Op Rescue members have been tied to both shootings

and bombings... and in a classic cell structure those members are not going to be directly tied to the leadership

As to Columbine, from their diary they were anarchists... so it was an attack on the power of the school and the state

[John Q. Citizen]

24. Your expansion on the definition of terror isn't novel. That's just how the Feds are using

the Patriot Act.

No thanks.


edited to add. - Some of your example fit the definition of terror, such as abortian clinic bombings. But I don't think those kids at Columbine fit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Actually they are not

if they did they would be dealing with our INTERNAL terrorist organzations.

I know this makes people leery, but I will tell yuo what? We have had an expansion of this over the last 20 years. It is different than the Weathermen, (a left, extreme left organization of the 70s), but if we retake the white house... I bet you that you will see more of this, NOT LESS.

Oh and it is mostly comming from the right this time around

[Ignacio Upton]

40. It doesn't matter to me if it's the Weathermen or Operation Rescue

They were all terrorists. Unfortunately, because they are American citizens, and not Muslim radicals, there will always be a small segment of the far-far-right or far-far-left that support them.

Oh, and if we retake the White House, the next Democratic POTUS will have to deal with the far-right taking their guns and pipe bombs out from the closets and dusting off the cobwebs, especially if it's Hillary (as a reprisal for her husband's stand against them.) McVeigh et al. have done NOTHING to harm the public ever since Bush came to power.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Fully agree

I expect internal terrorism to go on the upswing... and the media will be mum about the term

We are rather skittish about calling it what it is... and that is to our detriment actually

Of course from the point of view of the extremes, these terrorist groups could be seen as insurgents, but that is where terminology enters the equation and the creation of heroes

[aquart]

7. Domestic terrorism. Internal vs. external.............doesn't really work.

9/11 was internal. Happened here. Wasn't a domestic product, though. We hope. Coulda been outsourced.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. It came from external sources and it fits the classic

definition of blowback

[uppityperson]

8. k&r for a good post, even though I don't have an answer of what to do about it.

[BurtWorm]

10. I don't think trying to label disparate outbursts of violence as "terror" is constructive.

Anymore than declaring global war on terror is. Rooting out the causes of these outbursts might be a more effective means of dealing with them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. You are telling me that Operation Rescue does not

fit the classic definition of a terrorist organization?

Let me see

They want to stop abortion through violence...


And that is just one example

By the way, the WOT is bogus since terrorism (internal or external) is a tactic.

After all it does not matter if you are a member of the resistance in Iraq or a member of Operation Rescue. Both share one thing in common, how do you stand up to the power of military and police forces that both outgun and out man you?

Hell, we invented the craft during the Revolutionary war... so anybody who is shocked that it is being used against the state is ignoring history

[BurtWorm]

30. I didn't say Operation Rescue wasn't a terrorist organization.

I agree with you that they are. But the Columbine kids were not. This lunatic in VA was not. Most of these incidents are the result of an inadequate mental health infrastructure, increasing alienation of individuals from each other, and easy access to guns. It doesn't make sense to lump these sorts of incidents in with Operation Rescue, the SLA and Tim McVeigh.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Again if you read waht both kids at Columbine wrote

you will quickly conclude they were anarchists, a valid political view that has been around since the 19th century

It was an atack on the power structure... and their deaths was consistent with anarchism

This guy... if you believe he did this due to a break up with his Girl Friend I truly have a bridge...

But we can agree to disagree on this and everything else.

I am almsot sure that historians fifty and a hundred years from now will see this period of violence as fitting the definition of political upheaval on the fringes, right wing in particular

[BurtWorm]

32. But what is the point of labelling Columbine or this as "terrorism"

when that word is so charged? It doesn't seem to clarify thinking about what to do about it, unless you think it's a good idea to create a domestic brueau of the DHS. Do you think incidents like this could be prevented using counter-terrorism strategies? I don't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Given that things like this are classified as terrorism

in other countries, why the hell not?

In a rational society you'd have the FBI doing its job

You cannot stop all terrorist attacks, but you can greatly diminish them.

And I don't need DHS to create an internal bureau. It already exist, it is called the FBI

[mudesi]

11. The elephant in the room: Guns and the easy access to them

Until Americans wake up to the gun problem and gun culture, incidents like today's will continue to happen on a regular basis. A lot of people really ought to watch Bowling For Columbine and take its message to heart.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. I have watched it

and there were far more guns per person ten years ago... according to recent statistics published on this board, look them up

As I said, we have a terror problem... and it is high time we wake up to it

[DarkKermit]

19. Oh please..

Blaming guns for this tragedy is as dumb as blaming games, movies, and whatever else you might want to blame. :eyes:

What you and quite a few others need to do is take the OP's original message to heart and stop blaming inanimate objects for the actions of people.

[uppityperson]

34. OP was about internal terror, not blaming inanimate objects for peoples acitons.

I know, guns had nothing to do with the mass murder today. How silly to say such a thing when, after all, he could've done just as much damage, killed just as many with a golf club. Right?

[Gormy Cuss]

16. While I agree with you that domestic terrorism is the elephant in the room,

there is no indication that today's act, nor Columbine, were domestic terrorism. Xithras is correct about the meaning of the term. The Murrah building, terrorism. Bombing of clinics or shooting doctors who perform abortions, terrorism. Shooting a bunch of innocents because your relationship fell apart or you got a failing grade, tragic, even terrorizing but not terrorism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Having read some of waht those two kids wrote

they were classic anarchists...

Wanna bet they are going to blame this on soemthing that may be the CONVENIENT trigger?

I'm serious, if you believe you kill 31 people due to a failing relationship, I have a bridge to sell you... a large one... on beach front property in Nevada.

Somehow I don't believe their excuse du jour

[Gormy Cuss]

36. That would be the London Bridge, right?

Yes, I do believe that some people are so out of their right minds that they can kill masses of people over a seemingly trivial event, provided that they have the means to do so.




on edit, and yes I know that this bridge is in a different part of the desert, but same idea.

[stillcool]

26. Cause and Effect...

Isn't everything? I haven't always been the most stable individual and for that reason weapons are not readily available to me. Suicide and Homicide are both anger outlets, and in this violent society what does one expect? Our leading export is arms...war is glorified, hate is rampant. Perhaps big-pharma needs to unload some new drugs on the streets so all the kids can get high and peace out?

[damntexdem]

27. We need to fight them over there in Virginia, ...

so we don't have to fight them over here in Texas.

[MistressOverdone]

28. I think some of your examples

(Oklahoma City, anthrax) fit the internal terrorism bill, the rest don't fit my personal definition because they are not (that we know of) carried out in order to change anything. I see terrorism as a political means to an end.

My opinion, but you made me think.

Regardless, I think we can safely say we have a major malfunction.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. that we do

and problem is that even the obvious ones were not mentioned by the media for what they are

I remember the day of the Murrah building

We were flying.

When we landed at Ft Worth... they were blabbering over how this was a ME terrorist attack. (I turned to my sister and called it Bullshit since no external terror group would go after a federal building in a small town in the middle of nowhere, now LA and NY would be logical targets)

By the time we landed at home, well it was known it was done by a while American boy, the talk of a terrorist attack was gone

[bain_sidhe]

35. Rent/buy "Arlington Road"

with Jeff Bridges & Tim Robbins. Then you'll understand that it's *always* a lone gunman, *always* a nutcase.

Anything else might scare people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. bingo

[pitohui]

38. well, i have a suggestion that may put a more positive spin on this

i've had similar thoughts but there are actually good reasons for not giving undue emphasis to the terrorist angle without CERTAIIN proof of a terror/political motive

terrorists kill innocent people to bring publicity to their cause, any time we can instead portray them as useless fucktards killing to impress jodie foster or whatever, then we make them look like fools and it denies them the publicity they crave

with mcveigh it was too big and too obvious that he had a political agenda and a network of people who helped them, but for some stuff it is possible to deny the fucktard any positive publicity and i don't think it's all bad

as far as columbine, if there was any political/terror motive i'll eat my hat, as far as i'm concerned it was two self-pitying fucktards, who WASN'T bullied in school at some point, sheesh, do something positive about it or get over it, those are the options, not hosing down the whole school w. gunfire

we have internal terror, clearly, we do, but i don't think the fbi/doj is doing such a terrible job considering the size of the country, the number of weapons, and the number of incidents, we have far more day to day terror created by the illegal drug industry, i'd like to see a better job done of handling that fine mess

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Let's be clear about this

whether this is external terror affecting the country (9.11) otherwise known as blow back

Or internal terror...

They are police matters

Terror is a tactic

As to columbine... anarchists in the classic sense had no leaders, did not believe in leaders and engaged in terrorism (including a bombing in the early 1900s in NYC and the murder of a US President)

Would those two acts have fit the current definition? Probably not, since they did not seem to push for a political agenda, just as the two kids at Columbine did not SEEM to push a political agenda

But from their writings it was a direct attack on the system, a system they did not believe in... and a fantasy that they would walk away.

Now the danger, and we are already seeing it, is that we are looking for excuses... it is the video games, it is the violence, it is the violent culture... folks it is a sick culture we live in that encourages violent, even terrorist solutions, to our problems. We live in a sick culture, that is the other elephant in the room.

Oh and I do not expect our fearless leaders or the MSM, or anybody else for that matter, to have this discussion, aka what are the root causes of these horrors... but it should be obvious by now that we need to explore what is going on... and perhaps modify our culture and stop applauding violence for violence sake.

Oh and gun laws.. well lets not go there, but the NRA and the other side are basically taking their expected positions.

But guns are just part of a very complex puzzle