True or False? If you won't buy a UAW built car, you're just a pretend progressive, a DINO

[divideandconquer]

The UAW has been in the forefront of building the middles class and advancing the civil rights movement in the country. The Japanese transplants have fought unions in this country and allied themselves with southern Taliban politicians like Bitch McConnell and Dickhead Shelby. Furthermore all the first Japanese factories were in virtually all white rural areas like Marysville, OH (91% white), Georgetown KY (88% white), Smyrna TN (87% white), Lafayette IN (89% white), etc. Meanwhile one of the most productive auto plants in the world( Ford Hapeville) was closed on the south side of Atlanta.. Fuhermore, the Japanese companies still lag in minority dealerships with less than 100 in the whole country vs 344 for Ford, 275 for GM and even Chrysler at 137 having more than the entire japanese car industry.

Are people who buy non American brand cars/non UAW cars basically blue dogs and DINO's?

[Brickbat]

1. I tend to think so...but you better get your asbestos suit on when the apologists and bashers get a

whiff of this.

[thunder rising]

2. Wow, if I'd have bought American I couldn't have donated nearly as much to the campaign.

[divideandconquer]

3. The campaign for what? Less high paying jobs in blue states

Did you know that MLK's "i have a dream speech was first delivered in Detroit? <http://urbansemiotic.com/2008/01/21/i-have-a-dream-detroit-june-23-1963/>

It's long past time to call out all these phony progressives who won't put their money where their mouth is, especially now that Toyota has been revealed as just as immoral and lax as any American company.

[Pharlo Finesworth]

5. just as immoral and lax..? Well that's hardly a recommendation for any of 'em.

Does the progressive agenda now include dictating what kind of cars we must buy?

[divideandconquer]

7. Doesn't it dictate buying union?

[Brickbat]

8. Not on this board. I'll warn ya now.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. Provided there is a union made version/comparable model available

For some models of cars and motorcycles, there is not.

[divideandconquer]

31. What Japanese cars don't have American equivalents?

i'll let Harley people defend themselves.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

36. What Boeing or Airbus airliner doesn't have a Russian equivalent?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. Element and a few years ago the Prius Hybrid are good places to start. For motorcycles it

Harley and Victory, but I do not know if Victory is union or not or where its assembled. Bombardier has a three wheeled monstrosity, but I assume it Canadian, not that I would be caught dead on one.

[Pharlo Finesworth]

39. Honestly?...not to me. I spend my money on whatever product satisfies my wants. Whoever built it

is of no importance...don't you think most humans approach it that way?

[Brickbat]

43. Unfortunately, you're right...which is why so many people don't give a shit that a lot of their

products were made with child and slave labor in China or other countries.

[Pharlo Finesworth]

53. The thing is, nowadays, we don't have much choice (since you've ignored the fact that

no cars are built with slave labor)...how exactly is the average consumer supposed to get a DVD player that's not made in China? I don't think there are any. Well, there might be 1 or 2 factories in Korea or Japan that still churns them out but I can't name any. "Not giving a shit" isn't necessarily the same thing as "having no choice"

[Brickbat]

61. You're absolutely right. Sometimes there isn't an alternative. Sometimes, though, it just takes a

little digging, or getting something that's not quite exactly what you wanted. For some people, it's a worthy trade. For others, it's not.

[Pharlo Finesworth]

66. I would LOVE to buy a coffee maker from Columbus, a TV from Tulsa, a hammock from

Houston or a mill from Milwaukee but sadly none of that stuff is made in those places anymore. Hell, I'm not even sure who to blame...the companies who try to maximize profits to the benefit of their shareholders or
401K accounts that American workers imagine will give them some security? Where exactly does the buck stop in these cases?...

[Brickbat]

71. Right, I know, I'm totally with you.

But some coffee makers are made in the USA (Bunn-O-Matic). Hammocks, all over the place in the U.S. TVs, not so much. Frankly, I blame the companies for, as you say, maximizing profits, and shareholders, for thinking maximum profits are their right. And, to some extent, consumers, for believing that saving .50 for three years until prices go back up again is worth the devastation communities face when a manufacturer goes out of business.

My sig line is my sig line for a reason. ;)

[Pharlo Finesworth]

93. Back in the 1970s I spent a lot of time in the far east setting up very specialized

facilities to produce toric lenses. My company had a lot of customers in Japan which then was a lot like China is now...a still emergent manufacturing culture. I wasn't worried about demonstrating the technology to them because I correctly guessed they weren't interested in copying our equipment which had such a limited market. They preferred to buy our stuff to make -their- stuff that could be sold to 50 million people instead of swiping our ideas to market to a few thousand.

I'm pretty sure Bunn has outsourced their manufacturing to China but I might be mistaken...I do know that all coffee makers sold in local Walmart, Kmart and Sears are made there (I bought a Mr Coffee a couple months ago at WM - sorry but there are no other stores within 60 miles - that didn't work and I took it back, the lady said "no this is made in Massachusetts" I turned the box over and showed her where it said "made in China".
She nearly had a heart attack.)

There is no American television manufacturer, I know that for certain. And I hate it.

[prostomulgus]

4. The problem with Amerrican cars is not the UAW

It's the exploitive Ford, Chrysler,and GM corporations. They design their cars cheaply so as to maximize profit, even if it makes them less fuel efficient and more dangerous. The underpaid UAW worker is the best in the world but he/she doesn't design the cars. For their high quality work at low wages, they are rewarded with their jobs being outsourced and sent overseas.

If you want quality American cars and a strong UAW, then the best solution is for the government to nationalize the auto manufacturing business. Then, we can have the kinds of green cars that we really want, they will be much more affordable once the profit margin is gone, and the union jobs will be plentiful.

[divideandconquer]

6. Toyota has gamed our politics, the judicial system, exchange rates and our ever corrupt media

Their cars aren't that good and they cover it up with help of the media and judicial system. If progressive people wouldn't buy Japanese cars because they're non union and made a big stink about it, in 6 months they would all be UAW factories.

Buick has been better than Toyota brand cars for awhile, Ford and Chevy are very competitive, and even the 2008 Sebring Sedan tied the Altima for highest initial quality of midsize cars (same class as the supposedly invincible Camty and Accord), why is this a secret?

[Alcibiades]

141. Absolutely right!

Plus, here at least, it is the Republicans who are mainly buying foreign. They love the idea that Japanese cars are assembled in non-union plants in the south. Most have no clue that US carmakers have greatly improved quality in the last 20 years. They were late to come to realize that Japanese were worth buying, and now that they are buying them, I think they will be late in switching back, if they ever do.

[Xipe Totec]

9. A post worthy of your moniker

nice work dividing the forces!

Let's see how long your streak lasts.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. The bubba has been at it elsewhere and has had posts canceled and his head handed to him

several times now.

[divideandconquer]

122. It's sad there is no acknowledgement of how much the UAW has done for the progressive movement

It's just all about "what might be in it for me" according to the corrupt media, like our Senators voting on healthcare. The rank and file act just like our "leaders".

[Posteritatis]

196. Heh, nice catch. (nt)

[Romulox]

207. I agree. Principles suck! They just get in the way...

:eyes:

[Xipe Totec]

222. I see you have a monopoly on righteousness...

Good for you! :eyes:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. Considering that many parts are coming from outside the US, is your question germane?

Many "US" brand vehicles are assembled in Mexico or Canada. Not sure how you tell (I haven't bought a new car in more than a decade)

Another thing to consider is if there is an equivalent American car. Toyota Prius, Honda Element, and a few others have had no UAW assembled counterparts in the past.

In my case I primarily ride motorcycles. Since cruisers do not meet my mission requirements, what are my choices for a US union assembled bike?

Blanket statements that do not reflect the real world are silly. Didn't you learn that in the Gungeon?

[divideandconquer]

13. Are you anti union? Yes or no?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. I am a union member and supporter, are you? Your post and responses would seem divisive at best

Your post was poorly phrased, misspelled, and generally idiotic. You should not be surprised when you get called on it.

Also address the issues I raised, including the unavailability of comparable models, be it cars or motorcycles.

[divideandconquer]

25. What union are you in? I grew up in a UAW family and we all buy American brand cars

Do you know how much the UAW has done for civil rights?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. And if US made models are not available or do not meet the requirements?

Unions are not legacy memberships. Do you belong to one or not?

I'm in Education and belong to the usual suspects, including the NEA.

[SidDithers]

134. You forgot to answer what union you're in...nt

Sid

[divideandconquer]

28. What's misspelled BTW?

I mean to be divisive about this, you're either with unions or against them.

[Brickbat]

29. When you say a comparable model, do you mean in mileage, or do you actually want a hybrid? We're

pulling down 40+ highway in our 2008 Ford Focus.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. Specific features . Prius was the only viable hybrid for a few years, though

the US is coming on strong. I still don't think there is anything like the Element out there in a number of key areas including sitting height from anyone but Honda.

It terms of motorcycles, there are only cruisers made in the US, and they are unsat for what I need. M/Cs are my primary means of transportation.

[Brickbat]

42. Interesting about the sitting height -- I'm 5'10", Mr. Brickbat is 6'3". As you can guess, I'm a

huge fan of the Focus. We have two tall kids. The four of us are comfortable in it. I can get two hockey bags in the trunk. It's a good little commuter car that can serve as a family car in a pinch. As for the Element, it's so UGLY! :p But the Escape is a pretty cool vehicle, IMO.

I hear you on the motorcycles. We buy only union vehicles, but Harley is so overblown and self-referential anymore, it's a little embarrassing to buy one.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. I rode in a friends Element a while back, He is 6-7 with a 35 inch inseam

Its the only car sold in the US he does not hit his head in. I'm not far behind at 6'4" and a 32 inch inseam, and have similar problems with sitting height in most cars. With the seat reconfigurability and the rubber floor, it would be a desert geek's delight. However, I have a early 70s pickup truck that I use around the property and take to town when I need to.

[Fading Captain]

It's time to divide the Dems. Union or AntiUnion?

Because if you're an an anti-union Dem, like a lot of free market, corporate Dems, then we're more divided than any internet post could make us.

[divideandconquer]

72. Let's face it, so called blue dogs are mostly fifth column americanTalibans

For actual progressives to win, we must maximize every resource, especially our purchasing power.

[Brickbat]

14. It's very easy to tell. A car with a VIN starting in a 1, 4 or 5 was assembled in the US. A 2 means

it was assembled in Canada. 3, Mexico. J=Japan. And so on.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. Thanks, I'll save that for future reference. Is it anywhere on the sticker?

I can't think of anytime I have looked at the VIN during the purchase of a new car.

[Brickbat]

18. The VIN is usually on the sticker somewhere...most VINs are super-easy to find on the car anymore

anyway.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. What I meant was there indication on the sticker of the nation where it was assembled

Some people think just about every car sold in the US is US made, since many foreign cars have US plants, including BMW.

[Brickbat]

55. Oh, I see. When we bought the 2009 Focus, as well as our 2008 Taurus, it said on the sticker (in the

bottom left, IIRC) "Country of origin: United States" and also had a percentage of how many of its parts were U.S.-sourced. On the Focus it was 85%-plus, again, IIRC.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

60. Thats good gouge. The old truck is still chugging along, but I am starting to think about

a more modern replacement. Needs to be able to tow a 3000lb trailer and have enough headroom for me. Not sure anything like that is even made. I may hit the LA Auto Show and look around.

[Brickbat]

62. We've got a 2001 Ford F-250 diesel and it runs like an effing beast. Comfy, though, and moved a 15-

foot trailer of crapola for us. Not sure how heavy it was, though. Mr. Brickbat used it as a work truck until he got out of construction.

Got a coupla IHC pickups we could loan you, too. :rofl:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

73. I had an old Ford Ranger XLT. Loved it, and it even fit me. New ones are not even close

I would be looking for a 6 cyl kind of thing. That will pull 5000lbs.

[Brickbat]

76. It's a 5-speed V-8. The Ford, not the International Harvesters.

Rangers were good trucks, too. Good luck in your truck search.

[divideandconquer]

87. They haven't changed the Ranger since Wilbur Wright was co-pilot

One of the most unchanged designs available in today's marketplace.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

110. Another topic you know little about

There have been 4 generations of Rangers (Edmunds and Wikipedia disagree on the dates):
1983-1992
1993-1997
1998-2000
2001-present

The cab height was shortened between the 92 and 93 model years. I used to have a 91.

[divideandconquer]

119. Any link or proof to that cab height thing?

BTW, what do you drive now?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

124. Only cage I own is a 71 Chevy 1/2 ton. A V-Strom 650 is my daily rider with a

stock pipe (low noise), tail bag, and I lane split in traffic. Runs on regular, great mileage, and it does dirt roads much better that my touring bike (ST1300).

Not sure what is available on line WRT to interior cab height. I got in one at the car show and asked the rep. They said it was lower, new headliner and new sheet metal, which matches what is said here http://www.edmunds.com/ford/ranger/history.html but there are no numbers. I just cleared the headliner in my 91, so it was maybe an inch.

[tammywammy]

24. VIN is located on the Monroney sticker as well as the dash board near the driver's side. n/t

[Pharlo Finesworth]

50. Mike Monroney was a personal friend of mine back in the early 1960s

I was a student at Tulsa University (college of aeronautical engineering) and worked with him on several aviation issues shortly after his legislation created the FAA. I gave him his first ride in a biplane. :D

[tammywammy]

51. That's very cool.

He did a lot of important stuff. The Monroney sticker included. ;)

[Pharlo Finesworth]

74. And he was a Democrat/ senator, they haven't had many since.

:cry:

(much of my family still lives there)

[Codeine]

17. "Not sure how you tell"

You go here;

http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2009/index.cfm

this is a union-supplied list of UAW-made cars. Note that there are many US models not on the list and a few "foreign" models that are. The brand doesn't matter, it's the union labor.

[MajorChode]

79. Yes, it is

In order for a vehicle to be considered "domestic" by the EPA at least 75% of the parts must come from the US. Most of the labor involved in building a vehicle is in the parts. The assembly is a small part of the equation(about 30% of the total labor). The average total compensation for a non-union auto industry employee is about $10 less than a union equivalent. Foreign auto manufacturers typically build their assembly plants in the South were labor laws greatly benefit corporations over employees. Yes it is possible for a foreign flag auto to have a higher domestic content than a US flag auto, but this is the exception, rather than the rule. So if you buy a foreign vehicle (even if it's assembled in the US) chances are you are putting Americans out of work and the jobs you are supporting are lower paying jobs with fewer benefits vs a domestic vehicle (even if it's assembled outside the US).

And while yes some types of vehicles haven't been available in the domestic market, in the overwhelming number of vehicles there is a domestic equivalent.

[cynatnite]

12. Does that mean I can pretend I have the budget to buy one? n/t

[JackRiddler]

15. If you buy any car and can avoid it, you are doing a lot worse than that.

[taterguy]

136. Bravo

Obviously

[tammywammy]

I just bought a new vehicle two weeks ago

I went to Ford first. Test drove it was a fine vehicle. Was it for me, no. I ended up purchasing a Volkswagen, which I'm very pleased with, and my purchase personally helped two friends of mine (the salesman and the finance guy). I personally helped two American workers by putting money into their paychecks.

[divideandconquer]

21. But you could have helped struggling American factory workers and their communities

And some day they could have helped you in return. "what goes around comes around"

[tammywammy]

26. Sure, but I also helped out the American workers at the dealership

And then I continue to help them by taking my vehicle there for service (not this one, but the previous Volkswagen model).

[divideandconquer]

35. No matter what car you have bought it would have helped support workers

You're purchase hurt union workers and pro union areas in the US, helped union workers in Germany and depending on your purchase rewarded VW for putting factories in low wage Mexico or South Africa.

[cynatnite]

38. She's so anti-american. Bring on the pitchforks!

:sarcasm:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. But but but...its what the zampolit wants...

...the stupid burns strong in that one

[tammywammy]

49. *gasp*

Even worse, I used to work for the Volkswagen dealer. I guess I've never been "pure" enough for the progressive crowd, since my paycheck (though I worked in accounting) was off the sales of foreign non-union vehicles.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

54. VW is a union shop in Germany

[tammywammy]

57. Yes, but as you know, not all the vehicles are assembled in Germany n/t

[SidDithers]

135. Union-made international vehicles are a real problem...

for posters such as the OP. The Hyundai Motor Workesr Union is the largest union in South Korea. How is buying a VW made by a German union member, or a Hyundai made by a Korean union-member different from buying a Camaro, made by a Canadian union member?

Sid

[divideandconquer]

186. Why aren't the Korean and Germans opening union factories here?

Trying to escape the unions at home by opening non union factories in Alabama and South Carolina?

[SidDithers]

194. Probably for the same reasons that Ford, GM and Chrysler...

built non-union factories in Mexico.

Sid

[JuniperLea]

218. There are tons of good American Union jobs down at the docks too...

Unloading all those foreign cars... I know people who have worked at the Toyota Long Beach CA facility for 30+ years... raised their kids with good Teamsters benefits... bought their homes, their cars, sent their kids to college... all on Toyota. If the American auto workers had given American what they needed instead of what the GOP wanted them to have, we'd be in fine shape. But no... gotta have those Humvees! Suburbans! Boy, you can get yourself an SUV for a song right now.

[tammywammy]

44. My car was made in Germany.

I'm very satisfied with my purchase. The equivalent Ford had a cheaper interior, looser ride and less overall "bells and whistles." Price was around the same. The Volkswagen won out. I'm very glad that I helped American workers that I know are having a hard time in the current economy (since Cash for Clunkers is over).

[tammywammy]

19. dupe

[HughMoran]

22. Nah, it's a personal choice. I only buy American cars, but I can't expect others to.

I've had my share of foreign cars (Volvo, Subaru, Toyota, Renault) but they did nothing for me and were a pain to work on anyway.

[bhikkhu]

23. If they built bicycles I'd buy one

as it is I'm out of the car market permanently. as far as I can see.

The bike I commute on was made in Taiwan, but at least I got it from a local bike shop. My road bike is a Cannondale, which has "Handmade in the USA" prominent along the seatstay. Rumor is they moved all production to Asia last year though. If I buy another, it will be an older one made by the guys in Bedford, Pennsylvania.

[gratuitous]

30. There ya go

I'm trying to go car-free, and I make a 25 mile round trip commute by bicycle or public transit. I'm trying to depend on a personal motor vehicle as little as possible. Less petroleum consumption, cleaner air, better fitness for my aging body. I can't really imagine, at this point in my life, justifying the extravagance of $30,000 just to move my ass around.

[taterguy]

139. High-end Treks are still made in America

Don't know if it's a Union shop or not.

[a la izquierda]

142. Yes, Cannondale did move...n/t

[flvegan]

33. As an economics major, I won't buy a brand new car from anyone.

Well, if I hit the Powerball my ZR1 would be brand new, but my Gallardo would be a year old.

[NMDemDist2]

56. +1 but I still buy GM cars, just gently used..... n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

58. I feel the same way about cars, but not motorcycles

Way to many ways to hurt a M/C and have it not show. Most modern care are bulletproof for the first few years.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

34. The UAW doesn't make a car I want.

Although my Hyundai Accent was union made in Korea...

I have bought two cars in the last year, a Honda Accord and a Hyundai Accent. I regret the Accord a little bit and think I should have bought a Hyundai Sonata instead.

The US automakers don't know how to make a small car that doesn't suck. Hell when I went to look at the Ford Fusion the salesman accused me of being a homosexual for not wanting the Ford Edge SUV.

They have had more than THIRTY YEARS to get on this matter and not only does it leave a significant portion of the market unserved, it neglects the opportunity to build a relationship with customers during the years they are building their brand loyalties.

Then again I heard some chick rambling the other day about to be a progressive you can neither own a car or fly on airplanes. To be a true progressive you can only travel on foot or by bike and only as a last resort public transit or amtrak.

[divideandconquer]

40. There are thousands of other Ford and Mercury dealers that won't call you a homosexual

? BTW the Hyundai Sonata is basically a twin to a Chrysler Sebring and Mitsubishi Galant, both UAW made.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

69. You have still not answered the question if you are a union member or not

Family connections don't count

[spoony]

80. Regardless of the answer, they're fighting for unions here.

You, not so much. So guess, as a union member, which of you I would call my brother or sister?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

81. You missed the post earlier where he demanded to know what union

I was in, and how his family was UAW and only bought American cars...but refused to say if he was in a union.

My argument with the OP is that he posed a binary question to a complex question and refuses to recognize that. His tendency in that area is almost Bush like.

- Sometimes there are no union made models that have what you need
- Some foreign branded models are UAW made in the US
- His question is silly when it comes to motorcycles.
- What about used cars

[spoony]

84. Didn't miss it.

And I addressed your half-truths and rationalisations below. Others have as well. All you offer is an endless stream of excuses why you can't support US workers.

[divideandconquer]

111. Why won't he answer what union he's in? That's something to be proud of!

I'm an independent contractor, but my dad was UAW and he put 5 kids through college with a stay at home mom and we knew the union helped. 2 of my siblings have very good government jobs, my middle sister manages an important foundation that actually does good and my brother in law is an independent contractor who has contracts with GM.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

117. I did

Sounds like your generation is all white collar, which is fine. GS-14/15 pull in 100K+ per year.

As I said earlier, I am in the NEA and the appropriate locals. Identifying them, identifies me...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

115. I do support US workers, but they do not supply everything to meet every need

The OP's binary approach is just silly. Some cars, most motorcycles, all TVs are not available from a US manufacturer with a strong union. Admitting that is the truth, which matters. Buying one of those is not anti-union, but getting what you need.

Some of us are quite rational about large purchases so the advertising and sloganeering from all sides is meaningless. If I have a choice between equivalents, I always go union made or at least supported in the distribution chain. Sometimes that choice just isn't there.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

106. The Sebring starts at $5000 more than the Sonota and fewer MPG

[Romulox]

208. LOL. The UAW doesn't make ANYTHING as nice as your Hyundai!

:silly:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

215. In terms of class, quality and price - they sure don't.

The Chevy Cobalt is garbage for only $5000 more.

[Romulox]

217. If you're driving a $9000 bare bones Hyundai, then there is little competition

However, my guess is that you paid significantly more than that, which makes your comparison silly. :hi:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

219. Bare bones automatic Accent $10,800 (I paid) Bare bones automatic Cobalt $15,660)

Dealers wouldn't move on price if I wouldn't finance.

Since I am working in Canada I had my main car, the Honda Accord shipped here as the company car made available to me here (a horrible little Toyota built by and for Umpa Lumpas) was unbearable to drive, but I am home in California constantly so I picked up a second car just for running around when I am home.

[Swamp Rat]

46. False. REAL 'Progressives' ride bicycles.

Just kidding. :)

Sort of. :D

[ProgressiveProfessor]

118. What about the sackcloth and ashes I keep hearing about?

:sarcasm:

[quiller4]

47. In my book they are. n/t

[flying rabbit]

59. I have a Toyota Tacoma

built in the US, with union labor. Not all foreign brands are made overseas, just as not all American brands are made here.

[divideandconquer]

65. Toyota is closing that UAW factory to cut costs during their "emergency"

BTW, check out your frame for rust issues. Maybe you can paint it with rustoleum. Google it for yourself, don't take my toyota hating word for it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

77. Is that the same one GM pulled out of?

[Pharlo Finesworth]

70. I have one as well, it was built in California. By American workers.

The global economy is...uh, global and it's never going to go back where it was 30 years ago. We may not like the inevitable but we damn sure ought to acknowledge it.

[spoony]

89. I guess we should just settle into our slave labour positions, then.

:eyes: I acknowledge that there are two kinds of people: those who are willing to do something to support what they believe in, and those who just shrug, give in to what's wrong and pretend the first kind or person doesn't exist so they don't feel bad.

[Pharlo Finesworth]

98. I don't believe in altruism. Every human does what he or she perceives as most beneficial

to him/herself...and any pie in the sky imagination to the contrary is simplistic and wrong. And here is why your question isn't useful: if people behaved as you think they should, we would already be living in a perfect world, wouldn't we? It's easy to be magnanimous with other people's charity, empathy and money.

[divideandconquer]

103. How people act with their money and not their platitudes, is what's real

Don't call yourself progressive and then piss on fellow american union people. Being against altruism isn't that one of the foundations of neoCONism, just saying. Sounds like you would have against child labor laws, 40 hour work weeks, civil rights, etc, too much effort since the perfect is the enemy of the good.

[divideandconquer]

100. Acknowledge our supposed helplessness to stop it?

[Pharlo Finesworth]

102. Of course. You want to deny facts? Do you deny evolution?

I guess there are social Luddites like there are scientific ones. :shrug:

[divideandconquer]

114. So when are the Japanese letting Korean and Chinese cars into Japan?

It seems American are the only one who practice free trade in their home market. Maybe some some people are finally hungover on the globalisation KOOL_AID. Maybe high energy costs and lack of regulation of dangerously inferior products will do in all this "free" trade. Melamine in your baby's food anyone?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

63. There are so many variables here

Are we talking new or used?

Are we talking someone with or without good credit?

If used, are we talking someone who needs transportation right now and can't wait to find a domestic of comparable value that's affordable?

If used, are we talking someone who only has X amount of cash on hand and no credit, and needs the best bargain for their money?

If a person does have to buy a non-domestic vehicle due to their circumstances does that make then anti progressive, or just pro employment?

There's so many more variables which could be addressed.

I really hate foolish, shallow, polarizing questions such as this one. Really. I do.

[divideandconquer]

187. Sometimes you have to make a choice and you can't hide

One really has to do a lot of gyrations to avoid buying a UAW car, like really wanting a diesel or hybrid car that you would pay an extra $5000 to $10,000 to get one.

[iceman66]

64. False.

You can argue that you are a BETTER progressive if you do, but we are a 'big tent' party.

[divideandconquer]

67. So being anti union in a large purchase is progressive?

Like I said in an earlier post, if progressives boycotted Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, Subaru, BMW and other non union factories they would go UAW quickly.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

68. You continue to assume there are union made versions for all models/capabilities/features

which is blatantly not true.

[spoony]

82. Consumerist bullshit at its worst.

Sometimes supporting what's right isn't the MOST convenient thing. I recently bought some US union-made clothes online. There are cheaper items out there, and I also couldn't find some styles I'd have preferred, but you know what? What we do with our money matters, so I went with unions and with American jobs. Your repetitive rationalisations about perfect matches is just so much spin. We know there are plenty of UAW models out there, so do you. You're not fooling anyone.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

86. Not at all

For a number of years there was no equivalent to the Hybrid Prius, though that is now changing. There is still no equivalent to the Honda Element in a number of key areas, including sitting height. In terms of motorcycles, only US union made bikes are cruisers. Pretty, but do not meet my mission requirements (I ride rather than drive). Yes there are times its just the name, but there are also times where there are real differences.

[spoony]

91. Mission requirements?

That's some aggrandising language for personal transportation. I mean please, it isn't life or death, you could buy American you just don't want to. And I've already read about how you're the tallest man on earth and no car will fit you except the Element. It's nonsense.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

99. Just a figure of speech from another life, but its the right way to make decisions

Figure out what you must have, what would be very good to have, and what is nice to have.

Sitting height is nothing to be overlooked, it kept me out of the cockpit in the military. Its not the 6'4", its the short inseam. Have the same problem with suits, not that I wear them much anymore.

I haven't bought a new car in more than a decade, in fact its probably about 15 year now since I have. I ride motorcycles and there is nothing made in the US that meets my needs.

[divideandconquer]

83. What models? T he piss poor selling Honda Element, Ferraris, Rolls Royces, unicycles?

How about the large production and overrated Camry and Accord which are easlly matched by Lacrosse, Malibu and Fusion, the crummy weak framed gas guzzling Tundra crushed by the new Dodge Rams, F150's and the evergreen Silverado, For gas misers, Chevy Cobalt gets 37 mpg on the hwy. Real off roaders who need SUV's can't beat rubicon tested Jeeps.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

94. I don't want or need any of those, I am a motorcyclist . BTW, what union are you in?

But the Element, which is a niche vehicle is a good case in point. Hybrid Prius was certainly the only one for some time, thought that has changed. If Iwas interested in cars, I am sure there are more out there.

In motorcycles it easy. If you want a cruiser, there are a few US/UAW options otherwise its rice. Did you realize that the most expensive HD in 2010 is about $30K?

Face it, there are indeed models for which there is no UAW made equivalent. Cede that and move on.

[iceman66]

75. No, what you say is true

but no one can be expected to do the 'progressive' thing 100% of the time.

Buying a Honda does not make you a freeper!

[divideandconquer]

120. Put your money where your mouth is, it's that simple

It's never what people say, it's what they do.

[spoony]

78. Uh oh, you just gored DU's sacred ox

As you can see they have many, many reasons why they can't or won't buy American union-made cars.

[Godhumor]

85. Won't buy? I would never rule out a car before I was in the market

That said, I don't feel it is necessary to buy American if it is not what I want at that time. I currently own a 2003 Ford Focus, but my wife and I will be buying a Honda Fit in November.

The Fit is 100% created and assembled in Saitama, Japan--my wife's home prefecture. The area is also in dire straits due to the economic meltdown, and we've decided to help out her side of the family (so to speak) by buying a car from that factory.

Three or four years from now, we'll see what our needs and wants are and what vehicle best fits them. Ford won the previous round, Honda wins the current round...who knows about the future.

[aikoaiko]

88. I couldn't find what I needed in a UAW built car -- so I went Scion-Toyota.

not even built in the US.

[spoony]

92. And what did you "need" that you couldn't find? nt

[aikoaiko]

107. fit, price and fuel economy.

I'm a big guy with a bad back. When I say big I mean tall and big. In most cars, my shoulder hits the side bar or window and I have to sit tilted to one side. Scion Xbs are nearly vertical on the sides. Plus the sit is like a chair which is good on my back. The doors are tall too which makes them easy to enter. There is an incredible amount of designed room in the original Xbs. Here's the best part, the car is ergnomic for my petite, 5 foot wife too mostly because of the seats and front hood. She has a hard time in most cars seeting the front of the car.

Minivans and pickup trucks were my next choice but they were more expensive and not nearly as good on fuel. The Scion XB base was under 15k.

The closest to an Xb that I've seen an UAW car is the Ford Flex, but that wasn't out yet when I bought my car.

[divideandconquer]

95. Chevy Cobalt, Ford Focus, Dodge Caliber, Jeep Patriot, Toyota Corolla, Pontiac Vibe

Chevy HHR, Ford Escape, Ford Mustang, Mitsubishi Eclipse( much sexier and more athletic than those scion coupes) Jeep Compass, Mercury Mariner, Mazda Tribute, all competitive with Scion.

[aikoaiko]

101. I chose an Xb and none of those choses come close.

fixed typo

[divideandconquer]

108. Chevy HHR gets better gas mileage and has more cargo space

Pretty cool as well, many entrepreneurs use HHR's with wraps as business icons.

[aikoaiko]

112. 2005 Xb: 31 City / 34 Highway 2005 HHV: ? City / ? Highway

Because it didn't exist yet.

But its 2006 and 2008 MPG estimates are 21/28-29.

The newer Xbs have bigger engines and different designs, but there was nothing else like it in 2005.

Now the Cube and something else is competing with the original design.

[divideandconquer]

116. Sorry I thought you had a new car, America is more competitive in today's market

Wonder why Toyota made the Xb bigger?

[aikoaiko]

121. The weakness in the original Xb was a lack of storage space and the engine is weak

Plus its light and gets blown around a little bit more. So they made it heavier, added two more cylinders, and gave it more storage space for passenger and in the back. Its not as appealing to my needs now.

The original is really only a good people mover. It moves me, my family and groceries just fine.

The sides being nearly vertical was really the thing that worked for me.

[divideandconquer]

128. 32 hwy mpg on that HHR, pretty good for a conventional gas cargo carrier

[SidDithers]

154. Chevy HHR is made by non-union labour in Mexico...nt

Sid

[Warpy]

90. I would have preferred to buy a US, union built car

but the only one in my price range with the space I needed to haul fibre craft stuff was foreign.

This was 3 years ago. Perhaps now that people know gas is never going to be a buck a gallon again, they'll pressure the car companies to make a better variety of small car.

I drove a US, union made light truck for many years before that. In fact, it was old enough to vote when I retired it.

I just wanted something smaller, easier to drive, and more economical. But I did need that cargo room.

[divideandconquer]

What did you buy? just curious

[divideandconquer]

96. What did you buy? just curious

[Warpy]

104. It's a Kia

with an extremely well thought out interior--for my purposes, anyway.

The Focus was a close runner up but it just didn't have the room I needed.

[divideandconquer]

109. A Kia what?

[Cant trust em]

97. If the car I want to buy is American, then that's all the better

however, I'm not going to spend $20K+ on something that isn't exactly what I want just because it's American.

The Ford Escape is a nice car though and when I'm ready to buy a car, I'm going to give it a very thorough look.

[TheKentuckian]

105. There is a difference between WON'T and sometimes making a different choice

most of my cars have been American made but I've bought foreign before and might again at least used. I don't think I'd buy a new foreign car unless I was rich and had a collection.

I'm also hesitant to be all single issue but I think you're probably a DINO if you're anti-union or pro-free trade.

[divideandconquer]

199. That's why I worded it that way, you're the only one that picked that up

Many act as if they're a higher class or superior somehow because they own a foreign brand car, when called on it they become defensive because they try to have it both ways. When you suggest buying an American car they act like someone farted.
Globalization has been a disaster for our middle class and it seems for many in the exporting countries, but snobbish types love it, sophisticated consumers that they are.

[Odin2005]

113. Buying non-union cars is un-American!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

123. I gave up on American junk in 1968.

Then switched to Brit and German junk. Then I bought a bottom of the line Mazda in '72. From then til now "Made in Japan" is what I look for in a car. The two Toyotas we have now will probably outlive us both.

[divideandconquer]

126. 4.0L Jeep Cherokees are the longest lasting gas vehicles made, successor to the slant six

Outlast your Toyotas and pull them out when they get stuck. I've personally seen 2 over 400k miles and one in the family fixing to break 300k miles and they still run strong. The Chinese even counterfeited these vehicles and are still in production today.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_Cherokee_(XJ)>
Furthermore America has built some of the greatest cars in the world since the 70's. The iconic fuel saving Dodge Caravan MPV, a success the world over, wildly successful in Canada and copied vigorously by the Japanese. Stock Corvettes and Vipers that have bested the world on racetracks across the planet. Chevy Silverados, Suburbans and Tahoes with legendary 5.7 V8's. Dodge Cummins turbo diesels. Jeep Grand Cherokees and Wranglers, sought after from South America to Africa to Amsterdam. Durable and luxurious Lincoln Town Cars. Various Buicks vying for best selling car in China. The very impressive Chevy Malibu with world beating build quality. The popular to customize Chrysler 300 and the Dodge Charger police car to chase them. Millions of Mustangs.

[upi402]

125. I'm pro Union and love the UAW. But EU workers are union too and US made cars

can be non-union. And then there's the % made in USA content question. Where assembled... which parts + more labor... quantity parts vs. quantity $ value.

I don't give a FUCK about a corporation. I hate those evil entities now after all they've done to betray democracy and undermine America. I care about American working people. So what do I buy to help them? Is there a list still trying to evaluate it? (I've been out of the buying new cars habit for years now- been hunkered down)

[divideandconquer]

127. Why trust a proven corrupt foreign corporation over corrupt American ones?

Might end up with melamine in your baby formula or goofy ignition switches combined with poor floormat design that puts your family off a cliff at 100 mph while you hear your loved ones scream on a cellphone.

I love the idea that the wise Latina wants to take away from corporations their rights as human individuals. Jefferson and Madison supposedly wanted restriction on corporations in the Constitution and remember that the Boston Tea party wasn't against the King but against the British East India Company, the largest corpaoration in the world at the time.

[upi402]

129. Pinto gas tanks roasting drivers v. slippery floor mats. I guess...

I don't know if Volvo, VW, BMW et al are any less evil but the workers in those countries have it much better. And the Japanese Minister of Industry and Trade said that Japanese treat their pets better than American companies treat their workers. I agree.

The 1886 Corporate Person ruling was based on an utterance and misunderstanding by a court reporter. It's insanity. Gee, wonder how it has lastd this long here in the land of the free?


:eyes:

[divideandconquer]

133. Similar Japanese cars of the era has similar gas tanks

You know the gas tank right against the rear bumper with no shielding

[bridgit]

130. I don't know from the Taliban; but we drive a Ford

[Raine]

131. False nt

[divideandconquer]

132. Are you anti-union then?

What's your reason for false?

[Bluenorthwest]

137. Questions

What Union are you a member of?

Do your clothes all carry the Union label, made in USA? If not, why not?

Do you ever take intellectual property, such as music, films, or TV off the internet without paying the Union members who made those entertainments for you? Ever?

I often read on DU folks who claim to be pro Union, but also feel free to steal Union made entertainments at will. It is hypocrisy. Auto Unions are not the whole of the Union world, nor the only Union for which support is needed. If you do not support all the Unions, for everything, then I guess buying UAW is good, but it sure does not give anyone standing to divide and to preach.
I've been a Union member since I was 20. Nearly 30 years now. My Union made my life possible. What Union are you a member of again? My guess is that you are not a union member, and that you do not buy only Union products. Am I wrong?

[divideandconquer]

140. My dad was UAW, I'm a private contractor and buy American and union as much as possible

Cars are the largest consumer good and the UAW has been arguably the most important union the country. If union members such as you put down non union people trying to hekp, maybe we should just buy everything from Chinese sweat shops, they'll surely crush the American non union car business in the near future especially since the cult of Toyota has revealed as a fraud.

What have you got against the UAW? What union are you in?

[Bluenorthwest]

161. So the answer is you are not a member of a union

and you do not buy exclusively Union USA made products. You glossed over the part about lifting Union made things for nothing on the internet. Do you do that? Because when you do, you are stealing from me and my Unions.
And your word games are silly. I said not a word about UAW. I support them. I can not afford to buy new cars, because anti Union creeps steal my property on the internet. So what I buy is used. My father bought only GM, and by your 'my dad was UAW' logic, that seems to count in your world. He could afford new.
My entire point is that many Americans do not buy new cars at all in a lifetime, but we all buy new clothes. You wear non Union. You attend non Union entertainments. As a person who does not do those things, I could easily draw the Union line with those products, and say those who do so might be DINOS. Seems like that would be you. A secondary point is that judging people by what they drive is not a good thing to do, for many people are driving what they can buy, not what they would buy. Just as many buy the jeans they can afford and find, even if as you do, they buy correctly 'as much as possible'. My point is you are giving yourself much leeway in what is possible, while expecting others to spend thousands that many simply do not have in order to prove that they are what you yourself are not either. As much as possible. For you. For them, it is snark about what they 'need' when they say what they need. You 'need' those non Union clothes you settle for? Need? I doubt it.
You say people 'refuse' to buy UAW but you buy non Union if you have to. Think about that. Your double standards are stunning, as is your attitude toward Union members on Union issues, considering you are in fact not a member of any Union, and while your Dad was, you know, my Dad was at Pearl Harbor, but I am still not a Veteran. I know a guy who plays the piano, his kid has a tin ear. I've been on picket lines since I was too young to drink. You have never had a line to walk. Just saying.
You buy non Union products and are not a Union member. So why should buying non Union disqualify anyone else? Or should it also disqualify you? And a product that many have no choice in, well, that is cars for some, clothes for you, I guess. Maybe everybody does as you do, and buys as is possible, as well as possible, but they can not buy new or by choice, but by price and availability? Maybe extending to others the same deal you extend to yourself is wise?
If I could buy new, I'd certainly be looking at the Chevy Cobalt, as I drove a rented one and liked it a lot. Last time I bought a car, choice was soooo out of the question. But a Malibu came in second, they could not deal. That was years ago, and the Malibu had just started to get good again. It looks nice now too. But I found what I was looking for, which was used, but barely, high MPG, costing this tiny amount, with low miles and not white. It could have been any car that fit that bill. I'd have loved it to have been any number of other car. I bought what was possible to buy. Clothes, they sell on the internet, by the way, making what is possible to be pretty much your whole wardrobe. Are you still going to sit there being Mr Union, in those clothes, when just a click away is USA Union hat to socks? And claim you do what is possible?
Just saying, man, we all do what is possible. Yourself included. So relax and use one rule book, the one you actually live by, when judging the Laborness of others.

[Lorien]

178. Ah, you're a single issue voter

no surprise.

[Touchdown]

197. He brought up a good point. Have you bootlegged a song or movie?

Hollywood does not function without unions. Every film that comes out of Hollywood has union involvement in it, all the way up to the director. So, when you download the latest sci-fi action flick from bit-torrent sites and don't legitimately buy or rent a DVD or download it through iTunes or some other pay service, then you are in effect anti-union, because you are depriving union members from compensation of their work.

[petronius]

203. "As much as possible." So apparently there are cirumstances where you

buy non-union and/or non-American-made products. Perhaps you'll enlighten us as to what those circumstances are, and why they don't make you a pretend progressive?

Nice trolling, by the way! I've seen plenty of bad mole/troll attempts over the years, but this one is quite well-crafted... :toast:

[Forkboy]

209. I can't believe people are taking the bait the way they have.

The OP's name makes a great tip off as to the intentions. :)

[divideandconquer]

228. And what are my intentions?

[Forkboy]

229. divideandconquer

[divideandconquer]

232. Conquer who?

[blue_onyx]

145. Know what else is weird

That so many on DU are fine with buying vehicles from non-union foreign companies but then complain about Walmart. There's plenty of hypocrisy on DU to go around.

[SidDithers]

138. Hey OP, your xenophobia is showing...nt

Is a non-union American-made car better than an American Mexican-made car? Or how about a union-made Korean car, is that better than a non-union Ford Fusion?

Sid

[divideandconquer]

147. So being pro UAW is xenophobic, I guess being pro whale must be also?

If everyone bought close to 100% Ameerican made Chevy Malibus, I bet that Ford factory would be back over here pretty quick and those Japanese transplant factories would go UAW even quicker.

[Romulox]

211. LOL. Anyone who supports American workers is a XENOPHOBE!

:silly:

[FlaGranny]

143. I've never in my entire life

bought anything other than a Ford or GM vehicle and once a Chrysler product in the past, but that was a piece of junk, unfortunately (this was years ago when most or all Chrysler products were junk).

[Dreamer Tatum]

144. I take it you design surveys for the Asshole Institute nt

[RB TexLa]

146. You do know union labor builds cars outside of the US, I guess those union workers aren't good

enough for you.

[divideandconquer]

148. I guess all those Americans out of work or underpaid don't register with some

You can bet your butt that one of the major reasons the Germans and Koreans are building in anti union Alabama is to get away from their unions at home.

[RB TexLa]

150. There are auto workers out of work in other countries, does that register?

or are only Americans worthy of your support. You do know human beings in other countries are equal to Americans, or do you?

[SidDithers]

152. Good thing no American companies...

build in non-union Mexico to get away from their unions at home.

Sid

[divideandconquer]

153. If we only bought UAW cars these jobs would come home

Ever think of that?

[SidDithers]

156. So if nobody buys the Ford Fusion...

Ford will shift production of the Fusion to a UAW facility in Ohio?

Sid

[divideandconquer]

171. If they found out that's the reason, it would come back quickly, probably to Michigan

[Romulox]

210. Hey! I bet that buying a foreign car will really help those displaced workers!

"justification"

:eyes:

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

149. True... becuause if you don't endorse EVERY liberal stance, you can't be one!

:sarcasm:

[divideandconquer]

151. What about this one, why are you anti UAW?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

160. Why are you presumptuous?

You don't know anything about me or the cars I drive.
I work at a site that employs hundreds of UAW workers on our production floor.

My wife has owned 2 Fords and all the cars I've owned were Ford, Dodge, Lincoln, Eagle. That's it.
The most questionable car I've had is the Eagle which was made by DSM (50% American & 50% Japanese owned).
Even then... it was UAW built in Illinois.

Would you like to see my birth certificate too?

[DainBramaged]

155. You are talking to people who think if it's 'assembled' here, It's American

An entire generation of now-adults were spoon-fed by the japanese propaganda network in the 90's and early oo's that japanese cars are superior to Domestics. What they don't know is the back story, or how my friends at a local Toyota dealership write over 2000 Repair orders every month because so much goes wrong on the cars they've sold. Hidden recalls, 'mandatory free maintenance' to hide faults and problems, constant 'adjustments' and letters going out to inform the customer base about a new free service they are offering when in fact it's to cover up a defect.

3.2 million sets of floor mats being thrown away because they snare the gas pedal and people died because of the poor design. We don't know how many crashes have occurred because of the mats, but the race to make the cheapest parts lies not with the consumer, but the manufacturer. The crocodile tears shed by the chairman fall on the deaf ears of the families of the dead.


The membership of DU is split pretty evenly among Union members/supporters and those that believe that buying foreign is a way to screw America and all of the pain it's brought into their lives. Their precious coddled lives.

If it wasn't for the Unions, we'd all be working at Mickey D's and Walmart. But they would have you believe that things get made by magic fairies and robots. Not real people with real lives and families.

[spanone]

157. when they build a hybrid that gets 45 mpg like my honda, i'm in

[rucky]

158. Honda is the biggest employer in our area.

UAW shops have been fleeing out of the country. Buying GM may or may not preserve jobs here. It may just empower their management to move more plants South. "Buying American" doesn't mean anything to anyone outside of the Ford & GM boardrooms. UAW provides no guarantees otherwise - and they know that better than anyone.

If everybody did as you suggest, my town would be a ghost town. It's more complicated than what you're suggesting, and I think you know that. Let me know when you want to have an honest discussion about how to keep jobs here while keeping the UAW strong - even though that debate should've taken place 15 years ago. We're kinda screwed now. Too late. UAW lost, and we largely have NAFTA to thank.

[divideandconquer]

163. Globalization has failed for average Americans and this recession will prove it in spades

BTW, your Honda plant will either eventually move or have lower wages. Can't beat slave labor. The whining from Toyota's CEO is already setting the stage for wage cutbacks.

[blue_onyx]

165. Yes, wages will be cut....

or production moved when the Chinese companies start coming to the US.

[rucky]

174. It's already a race to the bottom

In the past 5 years they went from mostly in-house labor to mostly contract labor. If the UAW tries to organize, they'll just shut the whole place down.

The only solution I can see is to form a UAW-sponsered workers' co-op. Take over a "dead" plant, and make a new brand of cars. Something similar has been done in Argentina, and those businesses are doing okay.

[alfredo]

159. I only buy used cars.

[Midwestern Democrat]

162. I will say that such a "progressive" must acknowledge this fact:

that the rural right winger who only buys American cars (out of patriotism and tradition) is - in substance - a greater friend of the UAW worker and their communities than the urban "progressive" who only buys Japanese and German cars. Some people can live with such enormous dichotomies between their professed ideals and the actual results of their actions - I cannot.

[divideandconquer]

164. Why so little concern for workers in Detroit, E St.Louis, Atlanta? Is it race?

Why so few Japanese or German brand minority car dealerships?

[Midwestern Democrat]

169. It's not race - it's just indifference or a total lack of understanding of how

their purchasing actions are screwing the very people they profess to care about.

As far as the lack of minority owned Japanse/German car dealerships, I think that's due to the fact that the imports utilize the "Super Dealership" concept - typically, two huge dealerships servicing an entire large metro area - whereas the Big 3 have had far more numerous smaller dealerships.

[tabasco]

166. If you never served in the military, you're a coward and traitor.

I have two infantry combat tours and drive a Toyota.

I've been a liberal since I was 13 and handed out pamphlets for Hubert Humphrey.

I know I shouldn't repsond to troll posts like this but I just wanted to drop in and say "fuck off!"

[SidDithers]

167. I'm glad you did respond...

:applause:

Sid

[divideandconquer]

168. So why are you anti union and what make you a liberal?

More than likely I wouldn't have served in an of the wars you're so proud of. Vietnam, Desert Storm, Grenada, etc

[ProgressiveProfessor]

175. Ahhhh...he just called you a troll and satirized your entire approach in this thread

Do try an keep up

[divideandconquer]

181. Wonder why he's anti union and what makes him a liberal?

Likely really isn't a liberal.

[tammywammy]

189. I'm so glad you're here to tell us who's a liberal or not

Thank goodness for you!

[divideandconquer]

190. Life's all about choices, either you support unions or not

[tammywammy]

191. I love your black and white thinking

You're either with us or against us.

I'm sure I'm far down on your "progressive" scale, since my former job was at a Volkswagen dealer. Those damn foreign cars paid my paycheck for over 5 years.

[skepticscott]

170. So, when are

American manufacturers going to start putting diesel vehicles on the road? We just bought a VW Jetta TDI, and are getting low 40's MPG in all-around driving, and it isn't even fully broken in yet. The Golf TDI is also coming out, and will get comparable or even better mileage. Other than hybrids (which are at least as costly, even when you don't take eventually replacing the batteries into account), no other car from a US manufacturer does that well in fuel economy and gives you as much in terms of features, long term quality and value maintenance.

[CBR]

172. We were planning to buy a Saturn Aura in January but now,

who knows? They are assembled in Kansas City apparently. I have no idea why GM would close Saturn -- their best line IMO. My Saturn Ion has been a blessing in between my husband's Cadillac disasters (two). We will probably lean towards Honda, Nissan but we will see.

On Edit: My husband mentioned Ford 500. Does anyone have any experience with them? We are obviously looking at used.

[divideandconquer]

176. A Chevy Malibu is a very similar car as the Aura with different sheetmetal

Both are built in the same Kansas City factory using the same platform and drivetrains. If you don't like it in 60 days you can take it back.

2009 Chevy Malibu, Saturn Aura Out-MPG Toyota Camry, Honda Accord
DETROIT – At 33 miles per gallon highway, four-cylinder, non-hybrid versions of the 2009 Chevrolet Malibu and Saturn Aura midsize sedans equipped with six-speed transmissions carry a higher EPA highway fuel economy label than comparably equipped Toyota Camry and Honda Accord models.
<http://blogs.automotive.com/6296023/opinion/2009-chevy-malibu-saturn-aura-out-mpg-toyota-camry-honda-accord/index.html>

[blue_onyx]

185. Saturn is redundant

The Aura = Malibu, Outlook = Traverse, Vue = Equinox. The Astra sold very poorly. Saturn was basically competing with Chevy so the brand was unnecessary. I agree with GM's decision to discontinue the brand.

The Ford 500 is called the Ford Taurus now. It was just redesigned and looks like a great car. It's made in Chicago. But you're looking for used so the newer version probably isn't for you. I've heard good things about the Ford 500...it's just looks boring.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/taurus/

[Romulox]

213. The Aura and the Malibu are the same car.

"We will probably lean towards Honda, Nissan but we will see. "

Refusing to support Labor because of the Obama mandated bankruptcy of GM is one of the flimsiest excuses I've ever heard. :hi:

[davsand]

173. Before you ask we are a union household. We also are seen as conservative Dems.

Hubby is CWA and I used to be UNITE. I paid dues with a guild member of OPEIU, but that organizing attempt has evidently fallen apart in the last two years, so I am currently with no union affiliation.

We drive American made (a 2000 Buick Century and a Dodge Caliber made in the Belvedere plant here in Illinois) exclusively. We are active with local Labor, the local Jobs With Justice, and any number of organizations that are focused on social justice issues.

Our buying habits are equally "pro union" because we feel that how you spend your money does impact on policy. (I refuse to set foot in a Walmart, for example.) I try and shop with local business that I know to be Union Friendly, and whenever I have the ability to, I buy Union made--even down to the bug on my business cards.

We also are active with the local Dem party where we are viewed as "Conservative" Dems. We are somehow suspect to some of these people because of our ties to local Labor. Yep, you saw that right. I am seen as somehow less of a "Progressive" because of my ties to Labor Unions. I have spent my adult lifetime out there working on what are seen as "Progressive" issues and some of the local intelligentsia views me as suspect.

They can drive their cars made by somebody else, they can wear clothing made by terrified workers in Central America, and they can invest in Pacific Rim where workers are abused and can only dream of anything resembling a living wage. They support this evil by purchasing goods produced under those conditions, yet they dare to tell me I am somehow less because I am Union. It pisses me off.

It also illustrates quite well that tagging anyone as "Progressive" or "Blue Dog" or "DINO" is just wrong. It is hurtful and most likely not accurate. If I have learned ANYTHING from my union brothers and sisters, it is that we are diminished when we divide ourselves. We all do what we can, and we do as much as we are comfortable with. Celebrate the support you get and never stop working to build relationships.

It is the Union way.



Laura

[bridgit]

179. Thank you for your post

[Romulox]

214. Thanks for one of the most thoughtful posts to this thread.

"We also are active with the local Dem party where we are viewed as "Conservative" Dems. We are somehow suspect to some of these people because of our ties to local Labor. Yep, you saw that right. I am seen as somehow less of a "Progressive" because of my ties to Labor Unions. I have spent my adult lifetime out there working on what are seen as "Progressive" issues and some of the local intelligentsia views me as suspect."

The Democratic Party has very self-consciously re-positioned itself as the party of the bourgeois. No real mystery here.

[Lorien]

177. *yawn*

try again with the fake outrage. My dad worked in Marysville for years. The workers there were mostly white, yes, and mostly middle class. They loved Honda. There's no need to unionize when you are getting a fair wage and good working conditions.

[divideandconquer]

180. Lucky you're white and middleclass and Honda had to compete with UAW wages

[bridgit]

182. Well there it is, but why aren't you factoring in health & pensions too...

They exert pressure on commercial decisions as well, no?

[Romulox]

212. "I got mine; screw you." nt

[Balbus]

183. Maybe, but I don't like american cars.

[Fumesucker]

184. My current vehicle: 1984 Ford F150 for which I paid exactly zip, zero, nada, nothing..

Friend of my daughter's took it apart to put in a new (used) 302 when the old engine started smoking, he couldn't finish the job so I ended up getting out of his driveway before his wife had an aneurysm over it. Dropped the engine and tranny, bolted tranny to the 84 Mustang 302 engine he already had for it, swapped the intake manifolds (Mustang was FI, truck is a carb) and put it back in the truck.

Long bed, fleetside, automatic with overdrive, dual gas tanks, A/C, cruise, MP3 CD player, runs fine although it's not the most economical vehicle on the planet. Next year it will be an antique vehicle and my tag will cost nearly nothing and I won't have to meet emissions although I'll maintain the emissions equipment.

I have less than $100 in the truck right now after buying some gaskets, oil, tranny fluid and a couple of hoses, belts and clamps.

It pulls my 8x16 tandem axle flatbed trailer like it's not even back there.

My previous vehicles have mostly been Japanese, including three Infinitis, a couple of Mazdas, a Subaru, an Isuzu and a Toyota, all bought well used.

I buy and drive what I can get at a good deal (read: virtually steal) and what suits my purposes for the time I buy it.

I guess I'm not pure enough for you.. And I don't give a flying burrito fuck what you think.

[Orsino]

188. I hope that my buying two Japanese hybrids in 2005...

...has helped enable others to buy American hybrids in 2009.

You're welcome.

[Touchdown]

192. Plant workers have very little to do with the build quality of a car.

The largest factors are design and engineering of it. UAW has no say in this stage.
Then there's management's timeline. Is it pushed out too fast? Was the engineering rushed? UAW has no say in this.
Management's decisions to make or kill certain car lines. UAW has no say in which models a company produces. They only build what they're told to.
Quality of materials/parts. UAW doesn't make purchasing decisions. Management does.

I'm not an auto worker and have never been in the biz, so I may be missing a few factors, but this fact remains. The UAW has very little, if any influence on the quality of the autos they make. They do the best job they can (I would say even better than non-union workers), and take pride in what they do, but they can only build what is given to them by the company. Garbage in, garbage out. I can't dispute that GM makes good quality SUVs, and that The UAW members put them together with care, but it's not the UAW's fault that SUVs are a dying fad, and the rise in gas prices has put GM's SUV heavy catalog at financial risk.

There is a Japanese term "Gaijin". which is a derogatory term for foreigner. Read "The Reckoning" by David Halberstam. He details that the majority of Japanese people have softened their stance on white westerners, but they still hold racist attitudes to westerners of color. It's a 20 year old book, but it still has relevance today, because it's a rare pea into Japanese corporate culture, which is very closely guarded by them.

[BlooInBloo]

193. It's much more fun to pretend there are no other possible reasons to not buy something, of course.

[divideandconquer]

195. Chevy Malibu has a high build quality and better gas mileage than Accord/Camry

Buick Lacross has Lexus like build quality. Many of these American cars are extraordinarily good and have high domestic content.

[Touchdown]

198. I'm not addressing specific models. I'm talking about conventional wisdom myths.

I'm not in a market for a car right now. I just paid mine off in August and would like to slowly destroy it over the next 5 years. I'm just bringing up a point that I have seen rarely discussed in these UAW/American Auto Industry threads. Like the other post said... people like to pretend that other factors don't apply. It makes for an easy, not a lot of thinking judgement.

But on slamming unions (in this instance, the UAW) you did fall from grace when you barked about the rusted underbelly issues of the NUUMA (Sacramento GM/Toyota partnership assembly plant) and UAW built Tacoma. As i said, the rust issue most likely has much more to do with a Toyota management decision than any UAW worker on the line.

[upi402]

205. You're right

The Japanese are racist. It's a homogeneous culture. Japanese clubs outside Japan -where allowable by law- exclude white people. That shocked me!
A friend works there from time to time, and a few teachers I know there - all say it is racist.

Also, UAW and the US workers are NOT to blame, I agree 100%.
It's corporate group-think and an unwillingness to give us what we need; Reliability, quality, value, and economy.


Sadly, US cars are designed solely to deliver money to the stockholders and managers. So it's designed to lose to Japanese car-making, yet we give them out tax dollars upon failure. We need to start over I think. Change NAFTA, GATT, and a new car making model from a new car maker here in America.

[divideandconquer]

231. You don't think the foreign car companies aren't subsidized by their governments?

The Japanese government has targeted our industry like a war effort and have ate our middle classes lunch, literallly. South Korea is now doing the same thing. Not one of these countries have free trade in their markets, ignorant Americans are the only ones stupid enough for that.

<http://www.unsustainable.org/index.asp?type=article&contentID=48>

[Canuckistanian]

200. Now there's a question guaranteed to avoid controversy

:rofl:

[whistler162]

201. When a Aardvark walks backwards it is a Kravdraa!

[Forkboy]

202. Living up to your nic I see.

[harmonicon]

204. in a word: no

[Romulox]

206. Hey! I'm a liberal. I just don't believe in all that "racial equality" stuff.

:sarcasm:

[Raineyb]

216. I bought my car used.

I hardly think it matters who made it once it's been bought by the previous owner from the dealer.

[Stevenmarc]

220. OK so then if you vote Republican you aren't worthy of being a UAW worker.

Why should the progressive consumer be limited to supporting a union that obviously doesn't limit its own rank and file.

[divideandconquer]

226. Because you're supposed to be smarter than that

Just join the race to the bottom and soon you'll be competing with children and slaves. Let's build a bridge to the 19th century.

[alarimer]

221. There isn't a single American car I would buy, now that Saturn is gone.

And Saturns lately were just rebadged Chevys and not worth the price.

I deserve to get value for my hard-earned money. It is hardly the workers' fault that management drove those companies into the ground and it isn't their fault the cars are shit (and ugly as sin as well) but I need something that is going to last 5-10 years at least, unlike most of the American vehicles I am forced to drive for work. Dodge trucks are so bad and so costly in terms of repairs that my employer refuses to buy them anymore. It remains to be seen whether the Chevys and Fords are any better.

No, the company management produced crappy vehicles and that is why they lost out when compared to Toyota, Mazda, etc. They also fell behind the curve in building efficient vehicles. People are interested in saving money on gas and on helping the environment, which is why the Prius is popular (though very, very ugly in my opinion- I would never drive one).

This question is also complicated by the fact that American car companies build vehicles in other countries and them "import" them into the US. I presume those are not union workers working for GM in Brazil or Mexico. So if I buy one of those, it is just as bad as buying a "foreign" car. Then again, some otherwise "foreign" cars are built in the US. Many of those jobs are non-union but they are still good paying jobs, relatively speaking. Ford once owned a controlling share of Mazda (33.4% according to Japanese law) but they have since divested themselves of that, I think. So my Mazda is actually part Ford. It has some of the same parts as the Escort, for example and also some Volvos I believe. The Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe are actually the same vehicle. So the question of what to buy gets complicated very quickly.

[Roland99]

223. "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" What a bullshit question to ask.

It's like a leading/push poll.

And, btw, my 2003 Mazda 6i with 131,000 miles on it has cost me all of $0 in repairs. All I've had to do is maintenance (tires, brakes, wipers, oil changes, etc.)

My '96 Chrysler Sebring JX convertible had to have the transmission rebuilt, the engine was rebuilt, it tore through brake pads and rotors like mad, needed some control module replaced. Finally, at 120,000 miles, the transmission went out AGAIN and I junked it.

My 1994 Dodge Intrepid ES needed a computer module replaced, had a recall on the parking brake (actually, my Sebring did, too) and it tore through brake pads and rotors, too.

I won't even get into the piss-poor performance and engineering in my 1990 Dodge Daytona.

[divideandconquer]

224. I can fax you $2100 in repair bills at a Mazda dealership to turn off check engine light

and it's still not off and runs shitty! So far 2 cam sensors, A PCM, a PCV pipe and counting on a 2003 Mazda 6 with 83k miles, just out of emissions warranty. Mazda is well known to have crappy electronics and transmissions. My family has had dozens of Chrysler products and had great luck. I had 2 Sebrings with no repair issues, we got 5 jeep 4.0's in the family with over 120K miles, one with almost 300k miles. My brother is on his 3rd problem free cummins turbo diesel and has a Magnum hemi they love. My mom has a Cirrus she loves. My neighbor has a box Cherokee with 250K miles. I have friend that had 250k miles on a Jeep that he sold and bought another and had over 400k miles when it was t-boned.

[taterguy]

225. How did you get the Mazda?

I was under the impression that you only used vehicles made by UAW members

[divideandconquer]

227. It's a friends and unfortunately it was built in a Ford plant by the UAW

Mazda 6's are prerunners to the Ford Fusion. Being 2003 was the first year for this platform and I'm sure it's some learning curve deal.

I got a lot of horror storys about 100% built in japan cars and plenty of storys about US assembled Hondas ( 5 speed automatic transmissions) and Georgetown built Toyotas( engine sludge)

[Roland99]

230. My Dad worked for a while at a transmission repair shop.

Chrysler vehicles kept that shop's owner happy and in the money for YEARS. Minivans, Jeeps esp. Transmissions routinely going out about 60-70k miles.

[Mixopterus]

233. Ok, I'll bite

Give me an American (Union made) vehicle that equals the Corolla or Yaris series in terms of mpg, reliability (I'm driving a 92 Corolla now that has needed some work here and there but nothing serious), features, and doesn't cost about 5k-10k more on average and I'll consider the vehicle when I finally retire Bongo (my car) after his years of faithful service in a few months.

Also: It has to have a good crash rating and not be a tinkerers car, I just want to drive it and go.