I was looking at a list of average physician salaries that I came across on the net as well as....

[Locut0s]

this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5lnGWF_EY#t=5m00s

from the video forum. That's 5mins into the video where the senator/physician talks about cutting doctors pay. Now if you look at other universal health care plans around the world doctors do indeed get paid less than in the US but they typically still make a quite a good living. Here is an interesting survey of doctors salaries in the US that I came upon:

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

Most salaries seem to start around the 140-150,000 range. But take a look at the MAX salaries after several years. Really now 800k, 900k and up to $1,352,000 a year!! There's more than a little room for shaving off some savings there without sending the doc to the poor house as the senator would have one think. By the way Barrasso is also an orthopaedic surgeon as mentioned in that vid. Which means he might have been one of those million dollar earners.

The biggest savings would come of curse in eliminating the whole private insurance industry but that's of course no even on the table.

[hedgehog]

1. We need several pieces of information in order to evaluate salaries.

First - is the number a salary or gross earnings? If it's gross earnings, what must be subtracted to pay for medical school loans, continuing education, license fees, malpractice insurance, other salaries such as nurses, billing clerks, office clerks, rent, utilities, phone etc

Second - what is the cost of living in the area the physician practices?

Third - should we ever be paying an extra premium to attract doctors ( especially specialists) to an under served area?

Fourth - should salaries be adjusted to steer students to certain specialties?

[Locut0s]

3. I agree I am simplifying the issue too much. I'm not arguing that.....

we should drastically cut doctors salaries to solve the issue. Like I said the solution is to remove the entire private insurance industry. But that is sadly not on the table. I know expenses are higher in the US than in other countries. I also realize that law suites are a huge deal there compared to elsewhere. $800,000+ a year still seem excessive to me though.

[hedgehog]

4. $800,000 is waaaaaay over the top if that is take home salary.

It may be that we're being played here. We say that $800,000 is way too much. Then someone says that the physician has to pay other expenses, so we say it must be alright then. Then we find out the guy only takes home $760,000!

Comparing salaries country to country or even state to state is a trip down the rabbit hole. Would you rather live in Provence in a century old farm house or a McMansion in suburban Houston? How do you even begin to compare those life styles?

[KharmaTrain]

12. There Are Costs Of Doing Business

My father was a physician and in his last years I handled his bookkeeping. First of all, he would dream of doing $200k a year yet alone 800k plus. Those are the specialists...the exceptions. Even at 200k, there was nearly 60k a year immediately gone to malpractice insurance; premiums that I'm sure have climbed even higher in the years since his passing. Then there were office expenses from rent to paying his nurse/secretary and the drugs and other supplies that he needed to have on hand. We hoped to wash on the expenses of running the office with referals and consultations. And I know he's not the only doctor to operate that way. One year when all was said and done, his medical practice only brought in $25k for the year. It's those rising costs that drove many doctors into HMOs, PPOs and other structured programs and at the full mercy of the insurance companies.

[hedgehog]

21. Agreed, although I was properly chastised for not noticing that the link in the original OP

does apparently list net salaries.

You make a good point about the cost of office supplies and drugs. We're all used to seeing the pharmacy salesman dropping off free samples. What most people don't realize is the cost of things such as vaccines. My doctor has had to stop giving some vaccines because he would have to buy packages of 6 or 12 doses that would go out of date before he uses them all. He could give my kids their DPT shots but had to send us to the county clinic to get meningitis shots for college.

[Winterblues]

5. "Pay for school loans"

I wonder how much their teachers made? :shrug:

[Bigmack]

6. How about the taxpayers pay..

for their education in return for a number of years working in public clinics?

Kinda like the military does.

[Lucy Goosey]

16. Canada does that successfully

You can have your med school tuition paid for if you agree to practice in an underserved area for a few years afterwards. Graduates of this program usually end up in a northern, rural area.

[Bigmack]

23. Yeah... but that's just them soshalist Commies up north! nt

[Locut0s]

7. I don't know but med school in the US is of course notoriously expensive.

[hedgehog]

11. I was talking with my doctor's wife recently. One child is taking an advanced degree in a

non-medical field and has actually managed to save some money by skrimping here and there. The other has finished medical school and is in so much debt already that she is headed into a higher paying specialty in part because she's going to need the money to pay back her loans.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. It seems to me that the lack of physicians in underserved areas

is exactly due to the fact that those areas CANNOT pay extra premiums. Where is that 500K doctor likely to be found? Houston, or East Bumfuck, where the mean household income is 22K? Who is going to pay for him to move there? The 6-bed county hospital that is closed on weekends?

[warpigs]

18. Net Income minus Expenses

The survey says:

*Survey includes base salaries, net income or hospital guarantees minus expenses

So it is after all expenses - why didn't you look before posting?

[Festivito]

19. A person's personal debt would not be considered an expense.

Personal debt from college for example could be paid quickly over few years or slowly over many. How it is thusly paid then changes the salary figure.

Malpractice insurance can vary from doctor to doctor such that the comparisons become unusable.

He did not include that when doctors must get payments from their patients, at times, they don't pay. Under a single-payer the doctor ALWAYS gets paid and has only a single form that a nurse can complete for him, thus reducing his cost, i.e. his time spent doing non-doctoring doctoring: the filling out of a variety of forms and employing people to do so.

[Gman2]

2. So it seems, that there is a vulnerable period.

If we could do tort reform of sorts, and perhaps shelter them some, in those first few years, they would be far more satisfied with their lot in life.

[Pharlo]

8. If the government wants to limit doctors' earning potential,

they need to also set realistic caps on liability insurance and education based upon the salary caps. What you're not stating in your US doctor compared to other country's doctors comparison is the cost of school and liability insurance. In countries where the costs of med school is covered and insurance costs are lower, it is much easier to justifiably place limits on their earning potential.

Lower salaries without addressing the other two issues, and see how many NEW doctors we have in a decade.

[Locut0s]

9. Agreed. It's just shocking how high the costs are compared to other countries then.

[havocmom]

10. Doctors in US may be a bit underpaid by global standards, but they live/work in US

They might just have higher operating expenses (wages, office rent, supplies paid here v other countries).

Now, let's talk Insurance Company executive pay ;) At least doctors actually contribute something of VALUE to society. Big Insurance fat cats? not so much, and many get a whole lot more than most, if not all, doctors.

The doctors pay meme was probably started by an insurance exec, like maybe the one in that ad pointing out the one who makes $57K AN HOUR?.

[hedgehog]

20. What, are you suggesting that an insdurance executive might not

actually be worth $6000/hr?

http://www.insurancenewsnet.org/html/HealthInsurance/2009/0424/Aetna-CEO-Ronald-A--Williams--2008-Pay-Package---3-14-Millio.html

Figuring that McDonald's cashiers get paid about $8/hour,

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_starting_wage_for_Cashiers_at_McDonald%27s_Restaurant


you could hire 100 of those people to do the same job and still come out $5200/ hr ahead on the deal!

[area51]

13. medical debt

I believe they also graduate from med school with a huge debt burden. If one were to cap their salaries, we need to go to a way to fund medical studies better.

[dkf]

14. Pay may not be as relevant as cost, which the average person has no clue about.

There is no disclosure prior to the appointment exactly what the possible charges will be. For people who are insured, we only squawk after we find out the claim was denied or when we get a bill for the excess. There is no transparency or disclosure that gives us the ability to compare, contrast and indeed move to a more reasonable doctor.

[Celebration]

17. the way to save money

Is to not have a "pay for service" system. Too many procedures are done under that system. Cleveland Clinic, for instance, has all doctors on salary (big salary, I assume) but their incomes are not dependent on the amount of surgeries that they perform.

And, they get MUCH better results at far less per patient expense.

Now, how to coax other doctors' groups into that same model? THAT is the issue.

[CoffeeCat]

22. If doctors are paid $2 million....good for them!

Why in the hell would a government official suggest limiting doctor pay?

Who do these people think they are? How would they set the salaries? Geez, these
people know NOTHING and they want to infringe on people in such an arbitrary and
ridiculous way. They have no business doing so!

I'm sure there are doctors who make $2 million+ annually. They are probably worth
every damn penny, too! These people are highly trained. Four years of college, three
years of med school, three years of residency and then further training if they are a
specialist. These people save lives!

I would be happy to know that my child's pediatric neurosurgeon is paid $3 million, or that
my favorite aunt's thoracic surgeon or her oncologist is a millionaire. Highly trained, seasoned doctors are
invaluable. This corrupt, elected official--is doing the bidding for the insurance companies--who need to make
someone else the villain and deflect from their crimes.

This nimrod who suggests salary caps is playing dirty. They create such
misery within the middle and lower classes, and then try to harness the anger they
cultivate in us--against doctors. Shame on them!

And no, I'm not a doctor. However, I know when someone is trying to artificially
solve a problem for the insurance companies with misdirected anger, "Why! It's the millionaire-doctor's fault!".

No...it's the insurance-company vermin that are at fault. The doctors are fighting for
single payer. The insurance execs are fighting to stop any reform.

This Congress person should be ashamed of himself.