3rd person dies in Ariz. sweat lodge incident

[Liberal_in_LA]

wow...damage to organs within 2 hours. That was some sweat lodge

3rd person dies in Ariz. sweat lodge incident
49-year-old Minnesota woman had multiple organ failure

FLAGSTAFF, Arizona - A third person who was overcome in a sweat lodge ceremony run by self-help guru James Arthur Ray died Saturday, a sheriff's spokesman said.

Liz Neuman, 49, of Minnesota had been transported to the Flagstaff Medical Center on Oct. 8 with damage to multiple organs.

She was among more than 50 people crowded inside the sweat lodge at a resort just outside Sedona. An emergency call two hours after they entered the lodge reported two people not breathing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33364440/ns/us_news/

[Eric J in MN]

1. Pseudo-science was placed above scientific facts...

...like people need oxygen, and a non-porous tent stops oxygen from getting in.

[dysfunctional press]

4. plus- they did a three-day fast prior to it....

not a good combination.

[Desertrose]

16. 36 hour fast, then a large breakfast....

then they entered the "lodge" midafternoon.

Definitely not a good combination the way it was done.

[Sebastian Doyle]

27. Wait a minute....

They fasted for 36 hours and then ate a big meal before going into the lodge?

That's just insane! :wow:

[Liberal_in_LA]

29. why?

[Sebastian Doyle]

30. You're supposed to fast before the lodge, and eat afterwards

The reasons are both spiritual and physical.... if you go into that intense heat on a full stomach, it's not going to be pretty. I doubt that alone would have killed anybody, but it probably made some of them very sick.

I'm not sure why they fasted for 36 hours before, exactly. Probably 12 hours would be enough, from the physical perspective.

[Liberal_in_LA]

32. Oh..interesting. Thanks. This sweat lodge stuff is looking less inviting, the more I hear

[Sebastian Doyle]

34. Don't judge it by what these idiots in Sedona did.

When sweat lodge ceremony is done for the right reasons by people who know what they are doing, it's a very cleansing thing, physically as well as spiritually. At least that's my experience.

[Liberal_in_LA]

35. I hear ya. I won't pay $9000 for some SF joker to lead me into a sauna death trap

[Eric J in MN]

41. Eating a lot immediately after a long fast is also dangerous.

The body can't necessarily handle a lot of food right after a fast. The body needs time to adjust to eating again.

A lot of people liberated from concentration camps in Europe died when they suddenly went from starvation-level food to being able to eat a lot of food.

[Hekate]

19. It was not pseudo-science but cultural imperialism that did them in. Sweat lodges...

... come out of a particular culture -- an entire culture that differs from our own in significant ways. Specialists in these cultures know how to conduct the ceremony, what the goal of the experience is, what is safe and what is not.

Blissfully arrogant New Agey pseudo-gurus who don't even know the depth of their own ignorance sometimes just come along and pluck pieces of other cultures out of their appropriate settings -- as this guy did -- sometimes with disastrous consequences -- as happened here. A lot of times they get away with it and no one gets physically hurt. This guy's luck and common sense both failed him.

I'm a syncretist following an eclectic path myself, but I try to always maintain a respectful awareness of what I have borrowed and whether it can truly belong to me. Sometimes you walk a fine line in the process of re-creating and re-imagining a spiritual path -- but again, this guy's goals didn't seem truly spiritual.

Anyway... this was just terrible.

Hekate

[patrice]

38. "Syncretist" - I like that very much! & "maintain(ing) a respectful awareness of what

i have borrowed" - that's a very good expression of what I try to do/live.

Though, ultimately, I think it all belongs to all of us, because it all is our best approximation of the Truth and, yet, it is vitally important to the commonalities to also be as aware as possible of the differences that are intrinsic to each heritage, because those ARE essential to the owners of each.

Hekate, Goddess of the Crossroads, I salute you.

:hi:

[Hekate]

50. Why, thank you

:hi:

[SpiralHawk]

36. The Money Freak who ran this Lodge had no understanding of the ways

He was not prepared to lead, nor was he trained by the elders. He had no respect for the Pesuponk Lodge tradition which goes back many thousands of years on this land, and which has been a profoundly healing experience for people over the generations.

This man proceeded without respect, and with money as his main goal. That is a recipe for spiritual disaster.

I regard him as a Republicon Shaman.

[question everything]

2. What a waste (nt)

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vickers]

5. How liberal of you!!!

:hug:

[Lasher]

6. A little harsh, but a good point. n/t

[targetpractice]

8. Fool. n/t

[KittyWampus]

9. your post is a good example of why I don't bother much with DU lately.

[Hekate]

21. Ignore is your friend

Believe me

[Hekate]

10. Well that's just nasty.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. Woo woos wane while wooing.

Reminds me of the woo woo who died while taking her candle lit alcohol bath.

Or the woman who walked off the edge of a three story building while ghost hunting.

[Desertrose]

13. This place has been overrun by the most callous bastards.

Someone's death is not a thing to joke about. Regardless of the reasons.

What is wrong with you?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Depends on the method of the death.

http://www.darwinawards.com/

What's wrong with me?

I have a sense of humor.

What's wrong with you?

[Desertrose]

17. Nothing's wrong with me....

I just don't find others' misfortune or loss of life humorous....regardless.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Too bad for you.

[Desertrose]

20. Sez you.

[patrice]

39. oldest dodge in the world

[NutmegYankee]

28. You missed the Darwin Awards...

[Desertrose]

44. No actually, I didn't miss them.

I just don't find other peoples misfortune, whether by their own foolish choices or not, particulary amusing.

If getting your rocks off at the deaths of others makes you higher on the Darwinian scale, just count me out.

[NutmegYankee]

46. I was just pointing out that death is mocked in popular culture today. nt

[Desertrose]

12. No, you don't deserve to die.

WTF kind of comment is this? "Good"?

Because someone is gullible or vulnerable, they deserve to die ...so sez you?

What is wrong with you?

[Heidi]

22. Well, merci beaucoup to you for settling that for us. (nt)

[cynatnite]

24. No empathy award for you.n/t

[JVS]

26. Killed by their own conspicuous consumption. Nice!

[scarletwoman]

33. What a disgusting thing to say.

[KittyWampus]

7. Hope this huckster is held liable. If not criminally, then financially in civil court.

[Desertrose]

14. Yavapai sheriff is going after him.

He needs to be STOPPED ...and NOW.

[oldtime dfl_er]

23. What exactly is a sweat lodge?

is it something like a sauna? What's it for? What were these people using it for?

[cynatnite]

25. For some...it's like a church...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat_lodge

[Sebastian Doyle]

31. Yeah, that's probably the simplest explanation

Or as someone once explained it to me "In Christianity, you're born again once, but you're born again every time you go into the sweat lodge. Think of it as the womb of Mother Earth"

[WVRICK13]

37. I Wouldn't Go To A Sweat Lodge

anymore than I would go to a church. What I need to find spiritually is inside me and it is totally individual and unique and is a part of my life experiences, empathy and intellect. Why would anyone pay a stranger to give them insight and spiritual leadership? Most ministers I know are not that bright, probably the same with gurus. The only thing they have in common is the ability to talk the insecure into parting with their cash.

[astral]

40. I used to go

to a sweat lodge on a fairly regular basis. It was not some weird thing like this where you pay money for the experience. It was something that people were doing as a group and when others were invited to come or showed an interest they were welcome to come too.

It is like a physical and spiritual cleansing at the same time. This one was run in the traditional way, where the person leading had to be a certain percentage Native American, there were four 'doors' or rounds, where the first one was praying thanks and welcoming the gods and spirits of all God's creatures (that is a simplistic way of explaining it, though, and you do not have to have any particular belief system to participate) and then there was a round of prayers and a round of song, and we would pass the water around, and there was silence too.

Anywhere from three people to 12 or so people would be inside -- it was just like that picture on Wikipedia, and of course I can't tell but I think it was about 'that size,' too.

If there were men and women together all wore clothing of some sort, but there were also only men's sweats and only women's sweats where we would not wear anything if we didn't feel like it.

Afterwards we would celebrate around the outside of the lodge with food that we all brought to share.

You could never tell how long you would be there. It would be four to six hours ballpark.

Sometimes the feeling inside was very hot, uncomfortably so, and sometimes only certain people would get too hot.

This lodge had a rule that anytime anyone wished to go outside for any reason they just had to ask. They would then not come back inside until the next 'round' if they wished to return. This made it safe; it was not about proving anything to anyone, although if you wished to test your own endurance and stick it out when you felt too hot it was totally up to you. I was only in one time that was too hot for me. It was my first one, and I was praying I would be able to stand it when someone else asked to go outside -- three of us gratefully followed, and I felt strange and dizzy and had to lay on my back outside for awhile. I was told later that the person running that ceremony was making things alot hotter than usual.

It is hard to judge unfamiliar customs from a distance, so I thought I'd share my experience here. This is not for everyone, but certainly for anyone drawn to it but please get acquainted with where you're going and the customs there so you do not participate in something that is not meant for you.

[Liberal_in_LA]

42. Interesting. Thanks for sharing

[Desertrose]

43. Sweats can be a really wonderful experience...IF they are run properly

and with respect. It's not just building a plastic hut & bringing a bunch of hot rocks in and trying to outlast the others inside...where is there any kind of learning or respect in that?

I've been very blessed to have had some incredible teachers and been a part of some amazing sweat lodges over the years.

There is no way this man showed respect OR knowledge about this ...and now he learns the hard way.(Unfortunately, so do others.)

[Thickasabrick]

45. What did it? I can't believe they haven't been able to come up with

even a theory as to exactly what happened and why some people died and others didn't.

[Desertrose]

47. My guess is too much heat for way too long....

lack of hydration,lack of oxygen, (multiple) organ failure...you name it.

IMO James Ray basically cooked those people. 20 were hospitalized at one point...some were just luckier than others.

HE was the one by the door to get the fresh air every 15 minutes, when in a traditional sweat, the participants go out between rounds. All the others were all crammed in a space that was too small and "highly encouraged" to stay inside. Its not that hard to figure out.

Just what the hell his "teachings" were inside that place for 2 hours, my hunch is that they were way more material than spiritual.

[Thickasabrick]

48. That makes sense but I wish the coroner would just come out with it

already. He probably won't say they were "cooked", but he should if that is what happened.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Desertrose]

49. I think they are gathering evidence....

before they come out with anything. But my sense is that they are NOT going to let this slide...especially with this third death.

[G_j]

52. yea, and in his "teaching" he forgot

he was responsible for the health and safety are every individual.

The fact is, there is no possible way to be aware for the safety of 50 people!
It never should have been done in the first place, it's criminal for sure.

[Desertrose]

53. I totally agree with you G_j

Even with a few "assistants"...the lodge was only 53" high in the center...covered with black tarps...how could he even SEE the people??

And 50-60+ people...have you EVER heard of such a large lodge?

I've heard that they finally started ripping the lodge apart just to get the people out.That is criminal for sure. Amazing what greed does.


:loveya:G_j :hi:
DR

[G_j]

55. just awful

bad karma/bad medicine

I guess something like this was bound to happen.
May it prevent other tragedies.
:loveya: DR :hi:

G_j

[Odin2005]

51. Woo kills.

[Desertrose]

54. No, greed does. nt

[Odin2005]

56. Yeah, the greed of people selling snake oil.

[AspenRose]

57. This has happened before - how sad

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/06/27/BA212763.DTL