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Seems to me a lot of folks owe Michael Moore an apology

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:55 AM
Original message
Seems to me a lot of folks owe Michael Moore an apology
Michael took a ton of shit for arguing, in "Fahrenheit 9/11" that U.S. intervention in the Persian Gulf area was driven by the U.S. corporate fixation with building a pipeline through several area states.

The man now seems to be a prophet.

Will those who mocked him for that argument ever acknowledge that Michael Moore got it right?

Waiting...waiting...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. It is not about oil
but about the silk road. Oil is just one aspect of it. When oil goes away, the silk road will transport other things... like it has always done.

Oh and the silk road is just one part of the puzzle.

I wish people understood this, and Empire will do what an Empire needs to do... does not matter who is in office... in that sense we do what we need to do as an EMPIRE.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. + 1
.
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
67. +1.1 Oh, and an apology: sorry you're so fat, Michael. And ugly. Sorry you're so fat and ugly.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. indeed, today oil and heroin are what we control
in the future it will be heroin and something else....
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Spice
and silk

And luxury goods...

That's what it has been historically.

Google books has a bunch of the old books on it... fantastic readying and it will open eyes... as to what this is about... TRADE... and the central Asian chess game.

In the end it is who controls this... and who gets to die in that place, and I mean not just soldiers and civilians, but empires.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. so many wars fought between the Byzantines, the Romans
the Ottomans, all to control the sea where the silk roads arrive....
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. We are just the last ones to be there
and like Rome in its last days... we now use Mercs

:-)

Somehow readying Gibon has become more like readying present headlines...

Teuton tribes, Caci... same dif different millennium...
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
60. like eggs?
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
30. Perfect analysis!
Thanks,nadin.
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
35. The Silk Road is anachronistic and irrelevant.
Maritime trade routes long surpassed overland ones like the Silk Road.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Why we are there and the Central Asian
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 01:01 PM by nadinbrzezinski
chess board is still in play. RIGHT????

Maritine routes replaced some of the land routes, but major sections of the silk road are still in use. What do you think we use to ahem get 100 dollar gas to Kabul? Air?

:sarcasm:

(Khybir Pass for those truly interested...)

And the supply chain from Europe is using the classic silk road routes...

So to think they are anachronistic is to miss looking at a map... the ocean does not reach all over the world. Hell major areas of Asia can ONLY be reached using LAND routes, which are part of the silk road.

Oh and I figured a map would help

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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. The Silk Road is gone.
There is too much political instability to make overland trade from China to Europe feasible. Of course, overland trade continues to exist in Central Asia, but it's regionally focused. We are in Central Asia precisely because of this problem, trying to build pipelines to the sea in order to avoid politically unstable areas.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Look at the map, it is not gone
it has been at times stable, at times unstable... but the routes are there. It is this thing called GEOGRAPHY.
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. A tour company map is not evidence of the Silk Road.
Of course, there are roads that continue to traverse the region and link areas via trade. But that is not the Silk Road. The Silk Road linked continents overland, from the Far East to the Mediterranean. It ended with the rise of maritime trade and technology, the colonial era and the nation-state, starting in the 1400s.
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Asia201/links201.htm
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #35
57. Not at all. "Silk Road" refers to the TransAfghanistan Pipeline which has been in the works
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 11:53 PM by McCamy Taylor
since the mid 1990s. The Bush administrations dealings with the Taliban in the Summer of 2001 and then their falling out and invasion of Afghanistan were all about that pipeline which will carry natural gas from the Caspian to Pakistan and India---which is where all our jobs will be in another 10 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline

THIS is why the corporate masters will not allow Obama to leave Afghanistan. And I am talking our multinational corporate masters. They are determined to see this thing done.

W. would not leave Iraq until they signed over their oil. If Afghanistan wants to be left alone, they had better consent to this pipeline. Or else, I predict a very long occupation.

Oh, and Enron was supposed to emerge from bankruptcy through that pipeline. Bringing it all back home.
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #57
65. That is not the Silk Road, as it existed historically.
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 08:39 AM by mix
The Silk Road was an intercontinental trade route, overland, from China to the Mediterranean.

No such route exists today, despite tourist and oil companies using the term to conjure romantic images of their exploitation of Central Asia.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
69. Agreed, thanks for saying it.
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
39. Very insightful post
Good job.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
62. I want to be the emperor..... and immortal if you can manage it.
And pretty. That's three wishes.
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
64. All Empires Fall
And those who fall with it are the people who don't have the means to escape, not the elite.

Good Luck.


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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
70. Replace "silk" with "oil" and "road" with "pipeline"
And you are right on the money.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. Did you catch this?
former UK ambassador: Afghan surge shortly before pipeline construction starts

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x500069
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. well what do ya know......
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. But we're not in Afghanistan for their resources. Honest.
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YouTakeTheSkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Let me pose a question here, just to see what you guys think
If the pipeline is constructed, it will bring significant revenue to a country that, quite frankly, isn't gaining any today (heroin aside). With the longer term stability of Afghanistan in mind, would working to ensure that this project is completed truly be such a negative?

This is merely hypothetical, for the moment. I'm hardly convinced that this is one of the reasons we invaded in the first place, like some of you are. I'm simply curious as to what you all think.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. the revenues will not stay in Afghanistan
as per imperialism the revenues will mostly go to multinational corporations. The pipeline idea was in the pipeline before the invasion. It is all a big game of risk to the fuckers who run the world.
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YouTakeTheSkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. My understanding is that a portion of the revenues will stay in Afghanistan
An estimated 8%.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. 8% for real? 8% is shit
and the people will get shit. Their corrupt leaders will use that 8% to buy weapons, hookers, cocaine, booze, jewels, cars, and to build castles.
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YouTakeTheSkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. When you consider that the resource being transported isn't Afghanistan's, 8% isn't bad.
Also, clearly corruption is something that needs to be worked on. However, so is finding a stable source of revenue for the country that isn't based around the heroin trade. This pipeline could provide that.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. even heroin is taken by the powerful
the money does not make it to the poppy farmers. I see your logic, I see the benefit of setting up some kind of income soucre, but at what cost? how many dead? how will we keep control of the land around the pipe? will our soldiers always be there?
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YouTakeTheSkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. m
I feel the need to point out that there is a greater opportunity for the hording of wealth in the heroin trade since it's generally unofficial. The income from a pipeline deal would be public and easier to trace. That's not to say there won't be corruption. It is Afghanistan, after all. But it's also possible that they'll get serious about cracking down on such corruption and use the wealth a pipeline provides for useful things.
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Change has come Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #26
58. Why does that have to cost us 1 million per soldier?
:shrug:
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. When you consider a lifespan of under 40, thousands dead,
millions displaced, the population ruled by corrupt brutal "democratically" installed dictators, and zero guarantee that the money would benefit the citizenry... is 8% enough to compensate for their life and liberty? Is 100% enough? That should be their decision, not global corporations and the mercenaries called the U.S. military.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
50. How do you feel about a road starting in Mexico
going through the US all the way to Canada to transport who knows what, which will use truckers from other countries and put US truckers out of business. And the US gets about 8% of the profits from this road, AFTER we are invaded since we didn't think it was a good idea to begin with, and thousands of our citizens have been slaughtered and tortured and maimed? And no matter how much the people of the US say they don't want this invasion of our sovereigty, the foreigners who will profit from it just ignore us and send in more troops to make sure we don't get in the way of THEIR progres?

Hey, 8% it pretty good, since what is being transported isn't really ours. Of course most of that would go to the traitors who facilitated these foreign profiteers.

I personally think it would be a rotten and criminal idea here, and it is the same thing for the people of Afghanistan. You do know that the people of Afghanistan do not want this, don't you, or is that important to anyone other than them?
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. At what cost to the economic stability of our own country.
At what cost to the lives of both of our countries and primarily for the profit of undemocratic private corporations.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
31. How's that working out for Nigeria?
"The current conflict in the Niger Delta arose in the early 1990s over tensions between the foreign oil corporations and a number of the Niger Delta's minority ethnic groups who felt they were being exploited, particularly the Ogoni and the Ijaw. Ethnic and political unrest has continued throughout the 1990s and persists as of 2007 despite the conversion to democracy and the election of the Obasanjo government in 1999. Competition for oil wealth has fueled violence between innumerable ethnic groups, causing the militarization of nearly the entire region by ethnic militia groups as well as Nigerian military and police forces (notably the Nigerian Mobile Police). Victims of crimes are fearful of seeking justice for crimes committed against them because of growing "impunity from prosecution for individuals responsible for serious human rights abuses, has created a devastating cycle of increasing conflict and violence".<1> The regional and ethnic conflicts are so numerous that fully detailing each is impossible and impractical. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_in_the_Niger_Delta (see links at end of article for sources)

"Gasoline gushing from a ruptured pipeline exploded Friday as villagers scavenged for fuel, setting off an inferno that killed up to 200 and left charred bodies scattered around the site in this oil-rich country of mostly poor people. ... The impoverished people of Nigeria often tap pipelines, seeking fuel for cooking or resale on the black market. The highly volatile gasoline can ignite, incinerating those collecting it.

In 2004 a pipeline exploded near Lagos as thieves tried to siphon fuel, killing as many as 50 people. A 1998 pipeline blast killed more than 700 in southern Nigeria."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-05-12-nigeria_x.htm
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
47. All of those open
oil wells that spew fire and oil all over everyone. Everyone is sick....but this is where Buffet and Bill Gates send money to make everyone 'well.' They do nothing to stop the cause of the illnesses.

Rich humans are pathetic....and are a hindrance to evolution of the human spirit. May they choke on their money.
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #31
61. this is the fruit of supporting the idea and fruition of a security industry twenty years ago or
more.  If we do not take their "threats" seriously
and look, the violence has sprouted from propaganda and
created its own reality and validation in that process.  Dump
the concept and the industry, you go back to stasis where
civilization left off.

IMNSHO
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. John Maresca/Unocal - statement to Congress Feb 12 1998
http://www.progressiveaustin.org/afoilpip.htm

Afghan Oil Pipeline before Congress 1998
Highlight:
"From the outset, we have made it clear that construction of the pipeline we have proposed across Afghanistan could not begin until a recognized government is in place that has the confidence of governments, lenders, and our company. "

Mr. John J. Maresca, vice-president of international relations, Unocal Corporation Feb 12, 1998

U.S. INTERESTS IN THE CENTRAL ASIAN REPUBLICS
HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON ASIA AND THE PACIFIC
OF THE COMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS -- SECOND SESSION
FEBRUARY 12, 1998

Next we would like to hear from Mr. John J. Maresca, vice president of international relations, Unocal Corporation. You may proceed as you wish.

STATEMENT OF JOHN J. MARESCA, VICE PRESIDENT OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, UNOCAL CORPORATION

Mr. Maresca. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's nice to see you again. I am John Maresca, vice president for international relations of the Unocal Corporation. Unocal, as you know, is one of the world's leading energy resource and project development companies. I appreciate your invitation to speak here today. I believe these hearings are important and timely. I congratulate you for focusing on Central Asia oil and gas reserves and the role they play in shaping U.S. policy.I would like to focus today on three issues. First, the need for multiple pipeline routes for Central Asian oil and gas resources. Second, the need for U.S. support for international and regional efforts to achieve balanced and lasting political settlements to the conflicts in the region, including Afghanistan. Third, the need for structured assistance to encourage economic reforms and the development of appropriate investment climates in the region. In this regard, we specifically support repeal or removal of section 907 of the Freedom Support Act.

Mr. Chairman, the Caspian region contains tremendous untapped hydrocarbon reserves. Just to give an idea of the scale, proven natural gas reserves equal more than 236 trillion cubic feet. The region's total oil reserves may well reach more than 60 billion barrels of oil. Some estimates are as high as 200 billion barrels. In 1995, the region was producing only 870,000 barrels per day. By 2010, western companies could increase production to about 4.5 million barrels a day, an increase of more than 500 percent in only 15 years. If this occurs, the region would represent about 5 percent of the world's total oil production.

One major problem has yet to be resolved: how to get the region's vast energy resources to the markets where they are needed. Central Asia is isolated. Their natural resources are landlocked, both g eographically and politically. Each of the countries in the Caucasus and Central Asia faces difficult political challenges. Some have unsettled wars or latent conflicts. Others have evolving systems where the laws and even the courts are dynamic and changing. In addition, a chief technical obstacle which we in the industry facein transporting oil is the region's existing pipeline infrastructure.Because the region's pipelines were constructed during the Moscow-centered Soviet period, they tend to head north and west toward Russia. There are no connections to the south and east. But Russia is currently unlikely to absorb large new quantities of foreign oil. It's unlikely to be a significant market for new energy in the next decade. It lacks the capacity to deliver it to other markets.

Two major infrastructure projects are seeking to meet the need for additional export capacity. One, under the aegis of the Caspian Pipeline Consortium, plans to build a pipeline west from the northern Caspian to the Russian Black Sea port of Novorossiysk. Oil would then go by tanker through the Bosporus to the Mediterranean and world markets.

The other project is sponsored by the Azerbaijan International Operating Company, a consortium of 11 foreign oil companies, including four American companies, Unocal, Amoco, Exxon and Pennzoil. This consortium conceives of two possible routes, one line would angle north and cross the north Caucasus to Novorossiysk. The other route would cross Georgia to a shipping terminal on the Black Sea. This second route could be extended west and south across Turkey to the Mediterranean port of Ceyhan.But even if both pipelines were built, they would not have enough total capacity to transport all the oil expected to flow from the region in the future. Nor would they have the capability to move it to the right markets. Other export pipelines must be built.

At Unocal, we believe that the central factor in planning these pipelines should be the location of the future energy markets that are most likely to need these new supplies. Western Europe, Central and Eastern Europe, and the Newly Independent States of the former Soviet Union are all slow growth markets where demand will grow at only a half a percent to perhaps 1.2 percent per year during the period 1995 to 2010.Asia is a different story all together. It will have a rapidly increasing energy consumption need. Prior to the recent turbulence in the Asian Pacific economies, we at Unocal anticipated that this region's demand for oil would almost double by 2010. Although the short-term increase in demand will probably not meet these expectations, we stand behind our long-term estimates.I should note that it is in everyone's interest that there be adequate supplies for Asia's increasing energy requirements. If Asia's energy needs are not satisfied, they will simply put pressure on all world markets, driving prices upwards everywhere.

The key question then is how the energy resources of Central Asia can be made available to nearby Asian markets. There are two possible solutions, with several variations. One option is to go east across China, but this would mean constructing a pipeline of more than 3,000 kilometers just to reach Central China. In addition, there would have to be a 2,000-kilometer connection to reach the main population centers along the coast. The question then is what will be the cost of transporting oil through this pipeline, and what would be the netback which the producers would receive.

For those who are not familiar with the terminology, the netback is the price which the producer receives for his oil or gas at the wellhead after all the transportation costs have been deducted. So it's the price he receives for the oil he produces at the wellhead.

The second option is to build a pipeline south from Central Asia to the Indian Ocean. One obvious route south would cross Iran, but this is foreclosed for American companies because of U.S. sanctions legislation. The only other possible route is across Afghanistan, which has of course its own unique challenges. The country has been involved in bitter warfare for almost two decades, and is still divided by civil war. From the outset, we have made it clear that construction of the pipeline we have proposed across Afghanistan could not begin until a recognized government is in place that has the confidence of governments, lenders, and our company.

Mr. Chairman, as you know, we have worked very closely with the University of Nebraska at Omaha in developing a training program for Afghanistan which will be open to both men and women, and which will operate in both parts of the country, the north and south.Unocal foresees a pipeline which would become part of a regional system that will gather oil from existing pipeline infrastructure in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Russia. The 1,040-mile long oil pipeline would extend south through Afghanistan to an export terminal that would be constructed on the Pakistan coast. This 42-inch diameter pipeline will have a shipping capacity of one million barrels of oil per day. The estimated cost of the project, which is similar in scope to the trans-Alaska pipeline, is about $2.5 billion.

Given the plentiful natural gas supplies of Central Asia, our aim is to link gas resources with the nearest viable markets. This is basic for the commercial viability of any gas project. But these projects also face geopolitical challenges. Unocal and the Turkish company Koc Holding are interested in bringing competitive gas supplies to Turkey. The proposed Eurasia natural gas pipeline would transport gas from Turkmenistan directly across the Caspian Sea through Azerbaijan and Georgia to Turkey. Of course the demarcation of the Caspian remains an issue.

Last October (1997), the Central Asia Gas Pipeline Consortium, called CentGas, in which Unocal holds an interest, was formed to develop a gas pipeline which will link Turkmenistan's vast Dauletabad gas field with markets in Pakistan and possibly India. The proposed 790-mile pipeline will open up new markets for this gas, traveling from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Multan in Pakistan. The proposed extension would move gas on to New Delhi, where it would connect with an existing pipeline. As with the proposed Central Asia oil pipeline, CentGas can not begin construction until an internationally ecognized Afghanistan Government is in place.

The Central Asia and Caspian region is blessed with abundant oil and gas that can enhance the lives of the region's residents, and provide energy for growth in both Europe and Asia. The impact of these resources on U.S. commercial interests and U.S. foreign policy is also significant. Without peaceful settlement of the conflicts in the region, cross-border oil and gas pipelines are not likely to be built. We urge the Administration and the Congress to give strong support to the U.N.-led peace process in Afghanistan. The U.S. Government should use its influence to help find solutions to allof the region's conflicts.U.S. assistance in developing these new economies will be crucial to business success. We thus also encourage strong technical assistance programs throughout the region. Specifically, we urge repeal or removal of section 907 of the Freedom Support Act. This section unfairly restricts U.S. Government assistance to the government of Azerbaijan and limits U.S. influence in the region.Developing cost-effective export routes for Central Asian resources is a formidable task, but not an impossible one. Unocal and other American companies like it are fully prepared to undertake the job a nd to make Central Asia once again into the crossroads it has been in the past. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

(The prepared statement of Mr. Maresca appears in the appendix.)
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. There it is - the smoking gun!!
Great post, I hoped that someone was going to throw this on the forum.
Thanks.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. And convenient the first US-friendly President of Afghanistan (Karzai) was a Unocal consultant!!
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. this should be posted as its own thread
thank you.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
25. "Nobody could have predicted..."


Just a coincidence, of course.
:kick: & R




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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
4. Mike is great!
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
5. that'll teach them to disagree with him
in the future people should just believe everything he says so they won't have to apologize later for doubting the prophet.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Disagreeing is one thing. Blithely dismissing is another.
n/t.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
34. Possibly the reason Germany is not jumping on the bandwagon.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/solar/program.html

The statement was made in the story that Germany is trying to avoid future wars over oil by developing their solar and wind power. They're now up to, if I remember correctly, 30% solar and wind power. We're only at 1%.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. They're having huge politcal fall-out over Afghanistan lies and coverups.
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 06:50 PM by chill_wind
Resulting in 3 pretty recent high-profile resignations. They may or may not get on board. They were to be the 3rd largest contingent after the U.S. and Britain, but it sounds like it didn't go too well last week for NATO's Rasmussen.


http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1943206,00.html?xid=rss-world-yahoo

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/28/world/europe/28germany.html


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. When I'm wrong, I apologize. Is that out of fashion now?
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. That'll teach folks to stop slavishly believing in our lying liars in
the media and government and giving credence to investigative journalism. No need for a prophet when the truth is out there.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:52 AM
Response to Original message
16. A lot of us know that long before MM's mmovie.

Besides, he's a jerk.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. how is he a jerk?
Roger and Me? how many movies ever talk about the plight of working people (I know Ken Loach is doing that now but who else?)
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. He heard about some guy somewhere who didn't like Mike.
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 03:20 AM by Luminous Animal
No doubt.

But, for me, the best take on Mike and his personality, long before his fame, is revealed in Ben Hamper's book, Rivethead, Tales from the Assembly Line.
http://hamper.michaelmoore.com/


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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. for some reason it has escaped tombstoning for years
it is a birther, too
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. The 'stone has been put in place
n/t.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
28. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
43. K&R.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
44. for several things
he was definitely right about the moron management of GM back in the 80s, and the inevitable direction they were heading with their "make a buck today; even if it cost 100 bucks next quarter" mantra

and hasn't the current healthcare mess proven 'Sicko' to be damn near 100 percent accurate? how much longer before 'Capitalism' is shown to be just as prescient??
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
46. I knew it...hearing it in "911" was like me talking to myself....Hey folks....
When was Michael ever wrong?
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
48. pipeline?
What pipeline?
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Coulda knocked me over with a feather ..nt
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
52. K & R
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
53. I love Michael Moere. He has never gotten anything but praise from me.
Never has, never will.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
54. I don't think anybody here mocked him...
and Republicans aren't allowed to post here, so I'm not sure what you're waiting for.
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Not Sure Donating Member (334 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
55. good stuff
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N_E_1 for Tennis Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
56. ssdd
same shit, different day. or different year,century, .......
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
59. The Timeline of the TransAfghanistan Pipeline and Some U.S. Corporations Involved
Once upon a time, Afghanistan had the Silk Road. Then, someone had the bright idea of replacing the Silk Road with the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline, designed to carry Caspian Sea natural gas through Pakistan to India to fuel the Dabhol Power Plant. This timeline should help explain the political significance of the (as yet unbuilt) pipeline to folks back in the United States. Listen up, because your son or daughter may soon be called upon to die in order to make the dream a reality.

Did I say dream? Maybe I meant nightmare.

1992
Houston based Enron bids for the right to build a huge power plant in India, the Dabhol Power Plant.

"The World Bank's analysis determined that the government had not provided an "overall economic justification of this project" and, in particular, noted that the MoU required the MSEB to pay the DPC within 60 days, but the company had no limitations on actual supply of electricity, importing fuel, construction, or financing. In other words, the MSEB would have to pay the company for electricity at a prescribed rate, regardless of whether the electricity was actually available.

"The World Bank thus determined that the MoU was "one-sided" in favor of Enron and encouraged the government to "verify Enron's experience" as an electricity generating company before proceeding with the project."

http://www.atimes.com/reports/CA13Ai01.html

Note that there were no counter bids for the project which was guaranteed to earn Enron $220 million a year—even if the power was not needed. In a trial run for the price gouging of California

"Earlier in January, Enron made the headlines over its stance on a massive power blackout that threw more than 200 million people into darkness in northern India. Enron demanded three times the normal rate for supplying power from its Dabhol plant to re-start the stalled electricity stations. Electricity was finally sourced from the government's own units."

Ouch. Unlike the citizens of California, the Indians were reluctant to pay for nothing. That put Enron in a bind.

1996
Unocol (later purchased by Chevron began assisting the Taliban in Afghanistan. Their goal was the construction of the pipeline.

"Intelligence "whistleblower" Julie Sirrs claimed that anti-Taliban leader Ahmad Shah Massoud told her he had "proof that Unocal had provided money that helped the Taliban take Kabul ".<9> And French journalist Richard Labeviere said, referring to the later 1990s, "The CIA and Unocal's security forces ... provided military weapons and instructors to several Taleban militia ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unocal

The Taliban did not award Unocol with the expected contract. That put Unocol in a bind. And Enron in another bind, since their Dabhol Power Plant would not get its cheap natural gas.

1998
Unocol petitioned the U.S. Congress to oust the Taliban and replace it with an Afghanistan government that would permit it to build the gas pipeline (as well as a proposed oil pipeline).

http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Maresca_testimony_USHouse_1998.htm

2000
W. was selected not elected by Brother Jeb and his phony felons list.Enron loaned its corporate jets to the shady attorneys who worked throughout the months of November and December to keep the stolen Florida election stolen. Eventually, the Supreme Court ruled---on the side of Enron and Unocol.

2001
All through the summer, the Bush administration wined and dined (well, maybe just dined) the Taliban, attempting to broker a deal for the pipeline. They promised the Taliban a “carpet of gold” or a “carpet of bombs”. When the deal fell through, the Bush administration found a way to deliver on that second promise—after failing to stop the 9-11 terrorist plot despite repeated warnings. And not a moment too soon, since Enron’s financial woes were now the stuff of rumor and would soon become legend. Once the Taliban was on the run, Bush appointed a former Unocol consultant to head the government of Afghanistan.

http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm

2002
Rumors about Unocol, Enron, Bush and the Taliban must have worried Unocol, because the company suddenly developed a severe case of cold feet over the proposed pipeline.

"'Unocal is not involved in any projects (including pipelines) in Afghanistan, nor do we have any plans to become involved, nor are we discussing any such projects," a spokesman told BBC News Online."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1984459.stm

2003-2007
Bush-Cheney turn their attention to the oil riches of Iraq, where they hope to fulfill the NeoCons dreams of dominating the world through U.S. control of its oil. However, the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline is not dead. It has only been put on a back burner. For, you see

2008

GE staked a financial claim on the Dabhol Power Plant, signing a $130 million agreement. Note that GE, through its subsidiary MSNBC, was campaigning hard for Democratic Presidential Candidate Barack Obama—who promised to move U.S. troops from Iraq back to Afghanistan.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News-By-Industry/Energy/Oil-Gas/GE-Ratnagiri-Gas-pact-may-reduce-Maharashtras-power-woes-/articleshow/4752757.cms

2009

Now the Asian Development Bank—of which the U.S. is a major member---has agreed to build the pipeline. This will supply GE with plenty of natural gas for the Dabhol Power Plant. And the project---which will cost billions--will undoubtedly prove a windfall for other U.S. companies.

http://hillshepherd.blogspot.com/2009/08/trans-afghanistan-pipeline.html

So, do not despair. Your kids are not dying over ideology. They are giving their lives to make some rich American even richer. Solid American values.
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girl_interrupted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. I have a question.....why don't they get rid of the poppy fields?
Is it because Karzai's brother is involved with the drug trade? There is a resurgence in America, of heroin use among young people. Where do you suppose this stuff is coming from?

We know the Taliban uses the profits of the drug trade to support terrorism. Yet no one has yet to destroy these fields.

Anyone know why not?

Thanks.
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Afghanistan is a big country. Really, really big. And not particularly accessible or friendly.
That's why.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
68. What pipeline? Where? n/t
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