Gore Vidal on Teddy Roosevelt: Give a sissy a gun.....

[Smarmie Doofus]

... and he will kill everything in sight."

Stumbled across it in The Selected Essays of Gore Vidal; p.368

Here's an online version:

http://www.randomhouse.com/boldtype/0501/vidal/essay_us...

So. How true is this of TR?

How true is it of American foreign policy in general?

[JonQ]

1. I would hesitate to call TR a sissy

Read up on the mans life, he was pretty amazing.

[Smarmie Doofus]

9. I have HW Rand's The Last Romantic but....

....I cannot read it. Sleep keeps distracting me.

Perhaps you can suggest something more....shall we say... *lively*.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

2. He must be speaking for himself (nt)

[timeforpeace]

98. Or of himself.

[Danger Mouse]

3. Teddy Roosevelt only used guns because otherwise he would've used his bare hands...

and he wanted to give the animals a fighting chance. He could drop a charging lion with a single neck chop.

[proteus_lives]

7. You'll enjoy this.

The 5 Most Badass Presidents of All-Time

http://www.cracked.com/article_15895_5-most-badass-presidents-all-time.html

TR is number one!

[XemaSab]

32. Cracked kicks ass

:rofl:

[MilesColtrane]

49. Teddy Roosevelt's mustache had bigger balls than Gore Vidal.

[LostInAnomie]

4. Gore Vidal is a great mind and has lived an amazing life...

... but he doesn't hesitate to play very hard and loose with the facts and, frankly, make shit up sometimes.

If we've ever had a president that most definitely wasn't a "sissy" it was TR. He and Jackson were probably two of the physically toughest men that have ever had that position.

[Smarmie Doofus]

10. I think GV means "sissy" as in....

... a sissy in his (TR's) *mind*. You know, "compensating"... or trying to... for real or imagined shortcomings. ( hence the "badlands" stuff and the wild safari-type dealies.)

With unfortunate foreign policy implications for the US with the adult TR as president.

There's no validity at all to this part of his analysis?

>>>>>>If we've ever had a president that most definitely wasn't a "sissy" it was TR. He and Jackson were probably two of the physically toughest men that have ever had that position.>>>>>>>

[xchrom]

15. ++1 -- gv is definetly giving tr a gay roasting

With his anaalysis -- many of our less overtly acting
gay men are decidedly unimpressed by
overt masculinity -- and say so.

[Smarmie Doofus]

19. Interesting. This is where gender and sexuality overlap or *don't*.

Sort of like a Venn Diagram.

Vidal's not saying that TR's gay; he's saying that he doesn't embody the dominant male gender norm. In the same way that many ( most?) identifiable male homosexuals also stray from the mainstream gender-assignment camp.)

And that this fact gnaws at him ( TR). Nothing good ( wars, empires, orphans, destruction, disabled vets, etc. etc. etc.) comes from this conflict.

This stuff DO get complicated.... do it not?

[xchrom]

35. It gets complicted when looking at from our

Pov -- yes.

I don't expect straights to get the whole gestault.
But you are coming close.

[Vidar]

5. Teddy Roosevelt was anything but a sissy.

[proteus_lives]

6. An utter hatchet-job.

TR was perhaps the toughest man to ever sit in the Oval Office. His political accomplishments aside, he was a rancher, a soldier, a sailor, a mountain-climber, an explorer, a boxer, a judo expect, a taxidermist, a animal observer and chronicler, a nature-lover and yes avid and eager hunter. But he respected animals and their place in the world. That's why he gave us the national park system.

The man's life reads like pulp fiction but it's true. He lived "The Vigorous Life". Here's some suggested reading, The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt and Theodore Rex by Edmund Morris. They are great books about a truly complex and great man.

[Smarmie Doofus]

8. Not utterly. He gives TR his due:

"TR also began to understand just how the United States was governed. Predictably, he found the unsavory Jay Gould at the center of a web that involved not only financiers but judges and newspaper proprietors and, to his horror, people that he knew socially. He describes how a kindly friend of the family, someone whom he referred to as a "member of a prominent law firm," explained the facts of life to him. Since everyone, more or less openly, did business with the likes of Jay Gould, TR was advised to give up "the reform play" and settle down as a representative member of the city's ruling--as opposed to governing--class. This was the sort of advice that was guaranteed to set him furiously in motion. He had found, at last, the Horatio-at-the-bridge role that he had been looking for. He took on the powers that be; and he coined a famous phrase, "the wealthy criminal class."




>>>>His political accomplishments aside, he was a rancher, a soldier, a sailor, a mountain-climber, an explorer, a boxer, a judo expect, a taxidermist, a animal observer and chronicler, a nature-lover and yes avid and eager hunter.>>>>

And a jingoist and imperialist. No?

Is TR compensating?

[UTUSN]

11. So you get answered, then answer yourself, then open up a new front. Long Xmas break?!1

How about, "Somebody ahead of his time in some ways and OF it in others?!1" And what's "sissy" got to do with anything?!1

[Smarmie Doofus]

12. You sound bitter. Are you in pain?

It's a *discussion* board, bud.

Discussion.

>>>>And what's "sissy" got to do with anything?!1>>>>

Yikes. Read the article. There's a link in the OP.

[UTUSN]

16. Answers and ignoring answers put an end to discussion, much like Flaming. So do personal attacks.nt

[proteus_lives]

23. "And a jingoist and imperialist. No?"

Yes and if he was only those things, I would be a fan but he was very complex and I've read a lot about him and I believe he did more great things then bad.

I think he was compensating for childhood illness (Back when children did of these illness) and he was always chasing his father's ghost.

But I don't think that takes away from his accomplishments.

[fishnfla]

14. Suggested reading for you

Imperial Voyage by James Bradley. See poat 13

You've been sold a ball of pulp fiction. Edmund Morris was a ball washer and another racist

[proteus_lives]

25. How is Morris racist?

Try disputing TR's accomplishments.

[fishnfla]

28. the source for his works,

was carleton putnam, a horrid racist, the only source he ever acknowledged

this was not an enlightened time for our country. you are polishing the brass of an ugly american. TR is on the record as a racist, look up his comments on "the red people" "the brown people" and "the yellow people" He is responsible for wars. Water boarding was perfected by US troops in the phillipines

he was a hero like sarah palin is a maverick

[proteus_lives]

31. You're wrong.

Palin wouldn't been fit to clean the shit off TR's boots.

He was a trust-buster who fought big business, founded national parks and negotiated peace between Russia and Japan.

And he wasn't a supporter of the conflict in the Philippines. He ran it down and he ousted generals who too brutal and demanded army reform.

Racist? To a point but George Washington Carver might disagree with you or the black postmaster he went to bat for against her entire state. He was hated by the Southern Democrats because he wasn't racist enough.

[fishnfla]

36. i'll suggest another book for you:

Theodore Roosevelt: A strenuous Life

a quote: 'Thrown off the trail by their hero's careful presentation of himself, too many writers have accepted at face value his explanation of his own behavior'. Sarah Palin? much!

He screwed the Japanese over in the war negotiations with the Russians, before that he praised them for their surprise attack which destroyed the enemy fleet in harbour.

He got them to hate the US for the treaty, and gave them the idea for Pearl Harbour

[proteus_lives]

37. I'll look into it.

But I've already read a lot about TR. Many sources confirm his toughness.

"He screwed the Japanese over in the war negotiations with the Russians" We were in economic competition with them. Forgive me if I don't have sympathy for the Imperial Japanese.

"He got them to hate the US for the treaty, and gave them the idea for Pearl Harbour"

Also not true. The Japanese already hated us for interfering in China and our emigration policies. Pearl Harbor? Look up the Port Arthur attack. Japanese forces have always been big on the sneak attacks.

[fishnfla]

38. I am gonna leave it at this

he did alot of great things
he did alot of bad things too
he did things that were behind the scenes, he was a careful media manipulator. The whole Imperial Voyage was secret negotions beyond the media and congress
He loved the Port Artur attack and cheered the Japanese for doing it. The payback was a bitch

The truth bothered me when I found out about it. still does

[proteus_lives]

39. I agree to a point.

"The payback was a bitch"

You're making a false connection. The Japanese didn't need any encouragement to attack Pearl Harbor.

Imperial Voyage? Are you talking about the white fleet?

[Artie Bucco]

42. huh

I thought the Japanese got the idea for Pearl Harbor after the British Navy badly mauled the Italian fleet at Taranto?

The Japanese were actually screwed over by the Russians first. The Japanese victory in the first Sino-Japanese war was dampened by terms set by Russia, Germany and France. Russia was able to get a lease on Port Arthur even though it was ceded to Japan under the peace terms given to them by the Chinese.

You are putting way to much worth in the Treaty of Portsmouth in spurring Japanese expansionism and militarism. Particularly since Japanese expansionism and militarism in the 1930s and WWII was brought about by the Great Depression, trade barriers and the rise of fervent nationalism in the country.

[jrandom421]

108. It actually started earlier

"I thought the Japanese got the idea for Pearl Harbor after the British Navy badly mauled the Italian fleet at Taranto?"

Nope, but it might have influenced the planning. The Japanese got the initial idea from a 1936 fleet exercise where the carriers Lexington and Saratoga attacked Pearl Harbor, with the Japanese Naval Diplomatic delegation on board, including Isoruku Yamamoto.

[martymar64]

109. A shitload of Filipinos were slaughtered by the US during TR's administration

It was his own version of Vietnam. Also the lives lost due to the horrendous working conditions building his Panama Canal cannot be discounted.
TR was a brutal motherfucker.

[fishnfla]

13. Suggested reading, new book out

The Imperial Voyage by James Bradley

TR was a racist, a horrible lifelong racist
TR was an imperialist, the worst american imperialist of all time
TR was responsible for numerous war during and after his time of power, including the Korean War and WW2

He was truly a sissy, all his he-man macho shit was an act. He played golf and tennis all the time, but refused to have cameras present. He did not want the american public to see him dressed in what he considred effeminate garb. He understood media manipulation.The ranch hands at his ranch( which macho man ran into the ground because he was in manhatten all the time, not "out west" ) used to make fun of him ; 'hasten along there fellow, and round up the herd'

His daughter Alice had more character than him in her little toe

[Smarmie Doofus]

17. This is essentially the GV profile of TR.......

.... all fleshed out.

Sounds plausible, though I grant this is not my area. Interesting though that some even here are so anxious to buy into the popular image of TR... to the point of resenting anyone who wishes to subject said image to scrutiny.

A similar immunity to criticism is afforded Harry Truman. Criticize HST here and you're in for a battle royale.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

18. Anyone who visits Sagamore Hill (his home) would know he's a sissy.

The first thing that hits you as you enter is a huge room totally covered with dead animals... tremendous over compensation on his part.

:rofl:

[proteus_lives]

26. He was a hunter.

What's wrong with that?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

27. Want to pick a fight? You're not getting one here.

[thelordofhell]

20. Give a sissy a pen.....

And he will bash every President in sight.

[thelordofhell]

21. Give a sissy a computer......

and they will flame everyone in sight.

[devilgrrl]

22. I agree with Vidal but not the term 'Sissy'. 'Pussy' would be more appropriate in regard to TR.

Anyone who needs to gun down anything that moves and incessantly engage in armed conflict to prove something is a pussy.

He was the Ted Nugent of his time in regard to wildlife and race. Fine, he created great national parks, he was still a pussy.

[proteus_lives]

24. Ha!

Trust me, TR was no pussy. He was a man and tougher then anyone who sat in the Oval Office.

"incessantly engage in armed conflict"

Unlike some, he earned his Nobel Peace Prize.

[Paladin]

30. You're Protesting Too Much....... (n/t)

[proteus_lives]

33. Sometimes the truth is too loud for some.

[devilgrrl]

40. Being full of crap is loud isn't it?

:popcorn:

[proteus_lives]

41. Don't know.

What about you? Do you squeak or slosh when you go around corners?

[devilgrrl]

43. The corners of your impending Tombstone? It's only a matter of time - you're that transparent.

:hi:

[proteus_lives]

45. Transparently what?

Tell me littlegrrl, what am I?

Be brave and say it.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proteus_lives]

51. Pretty hostile for someone with a peace sign in their sig.

Just because you're wrong doesn't mean you have to resort to insults.

Tsk-Tsk.

[devilgrrl]

53. hostility would involve threatening you. A fact isn't a threat - or an insult - just a fact.

:popcorn::beer:

[proteus_lives]

56. You're pretty insincere about your position, aren't you?

Seems like that would be the reason you go to "You're a freeper!" attack mode.

That or you can't back up your argument.

[devilgrrl]

58. What that TR was a wuss?

He was. Ever see him tackle a bison? No? See? Pussy. :popcorn:

[proteus_lives]

60. Tsk-Tsk.

I can back up my position about TR. You can't do the same with yours.

Let's have some fun, why am I a "freeper"?

[devilgrrl]

62. Sure I can. He needed to kill things to prove himself - total pussy!

And that's a fact.

[proteus_lives]

65. There was no need.

He just wanted to.

What is wrong with hunting?

This is kinda sad, I think you don't have a lot of experience with men. Richard Simmons? Ha.

[devilgrrl]

66. There's nothing wrong with hunting for food. Why the need for Trophies.

Speaking of Bison.... now there's a tough animal to mow down. Walk up to it and shoot it. It doesn't get tougher than that.

As for Richard Simmons... I bet he could take Teddy!

[proteus_lives]

69. Sure, if you cloned him a hundred times.

And got TR good and drunk.

Yeah, bison are easy. Too bad you can't say that about the cougars, bears, lions and deer he killed.

[devilgrrl]

72. Pretty easy pulling it off with a gun. Ooooh! He killed a cougar! He a tough guy!

Get over it already!

[proteus_lives]

74. Ever hunted?

It's not that easy. They don't tend to stand still.

You ever been hunting?

[devilgrrl]

76. No I haven't. I never saw the point of shooting something for sport.

:donut:

[smirkymonkey]

78. Even John Muir told him that his need to shoot animals for sport

was extremely childish at his age. Basically, he told him to grow up. Real men don't need to kill to prove their manhood - this is what I think Gore Vidal was referring to when he mentioned the word "sissy".

[devilgrrl]

79. And that's why I agree with Vidal!

eom

[proteus_lives]

81. What are some of your activities?

I'd bet a lot of people would find them pointless.

There's a strong dollop of judgmental sweetener in that coffee.

[devilgrrl]

82. I used to play ice hockey. To bad TR wasn't around - I'd hipcheck his ass.

You? I'd take a slapshot at you... with no padding! Ever get hit by vulcanized rubber going 75+ mph?

[proteus_lives]

89. No. Ever been bounced off the hood of a Chrysler going 50?

I wouldn't suggest it. It can really put a kibosh on the weekend.

TR was a boxer, wrestler, singlestick fighter, champion rower, hiker and swimmer. He could take anything you could throw with a smile and a tip of his hat.

You ever row 100 miles in one day? TR did.

You ever climb mountains? TR did.

Ever ford down an Amazon river? (And then have it named after you) TR did.

You ever go on a 20 mile hike? TR did that after lunch.

Ever walk 15 blocks in one of the worst blizzards New York had ever seen? TR did.

Ever charge up a hill while someone was shooting at you? TR did.

Ever chase bandits through South Dakota? TR did.

[devilgrrl]

96. You know Jack Abramoff was all those things too! Is he tough as nails too?

:hi:

[proteus_lives]

102. Abramoff is a bully.

TR defended the weak.

World of difference. TR had moral strength.

[Paladin]

110. I've Been Hunting. Many Times.

Gave it up years ago because of all the right-wing assholes that have taken it over. As an outdoor pursuit, it's dying all over the country, particularly among the younger crowd. Not hard to understand why: Hunting used to be represented by guys like Teddy Roosevelt, and now it's Ted Nugent.....

[EFerrari]

34. He created National Parks despite the fact that many of those places

had residents that were evicted or killed in the process.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[devilgrrl]

44. Teddy Roosevelt was another media creation - definitely a sissy

:popcorn:

[proteus_lives]

46. Huh, we could use another creation like him.

If you actually knew anything about the man, you'd be impressed.

He created himself.

He did more in one year then you'll do in 60.

[devilgrrl]

47. and more in two minutes than your entire life!

:hi:

[proteus_lives]

52. Good to see you're starting to recognize what a great man he was!

I know it sucks to be wrong sometimes but once you own up to it you'll feel better.

[devilgrrl]

54. It does suck being wrong about one alleged "greatness" - you should hear what I think about Lincoln.

:popcorn:

[proteus_lives]

57. Ain't nothing alleged about it littlegrrl.

National parks, Panama Canal, Fighting the big trusts, peace treaties, Nobel Prize, The pure food and drug act, The Square Deal (Spiritual father of the New Deal), gave workers more pay for less hours, a aircraft carrier and carved into a mountain.....what was the name of that place again?

Add to that writer, lawmaker, hunter, explorer, lawman, athlete and rancher. It's all there for those who care to open a book.

[devilgrrl]

59. He did that all by himself? When did he ever sleep?

:popcorn:

[proteus_lives]

61. Now you're flailing.

It's too bad you can't just can't admit you're wrong. If you did that, I'd start calling you biggrrl.

[devilgrrl]

63. I'm not wrong. Liberace was more of a man than TR. Same goes for Richard Simmons.

:popcorn:

[proteus_lives]

64. Yes, you're wrong.

just admit denialgrrl.

[devilgrrl]

67. No! I won't!

:-P

[proteus_lives]

68. It will help.

I promise.

You'll free a weight being lifted from your shoulders.

I should know, I was wrong once upon a time.

[devilgrrl]

73. I am often wrong. However, this isn't one of those instances.

:beer:

[proteus_lives]

75. Of course it is.

You can't back-up your stance.

If you weren't wrong, you'd be able to prove it.

But you can't and you're too much of a stubborngrrl to admit it.

[devilgrrl]

77. What's there to prove?

:popcorn:

I bet he wore a tutu in private.

[proteus_lives]

80. You can't judge all men by what your father used to do in private.

I keep telling ya, you'd feel better.

[devilgrrl]

83. My father at least didn't kill stuff for shits & giggles to prove he was a man.

BTW, he was crappy parent... which also made him a pussy.

[Artie Bucco]

84. I am curious

to how you would view Hemingway. The dude hunted but was a man of culture and was definitely on the left side of the political spectrum.

[devilgrrl]

85. I view Hemingway as a very talented drunk.

The Killers - great story.

[proteus_lives]

90. Well, there you go.

By most accounts TR was a wonderful father to his many children.

He would have thrashed your father for failing in his duties.


Hey, 5000th post! Woot! Woot!

[devilgrrl]

97. G. Gordon Liddy ate rats and held his hand over extreme heat - he tough - he awesome!

FDR could kick TR's ass!

[proteus_lives]

100. TR was FDR's hero.

He inspired him to be the man and president he was.

[devilgrrl]

101. Oh bullshit!

Now you're making shit up.... actually, you've been doing that all along.

[proteus_lives]

103. Not my fault you don't know your history.

Crack a book.

FDR idolized his cousin.

[old mark]

50. Vidal can be a real asshole at times. I believe that was one of those times. nt

[gopwacker_455]

55. He's got a point

[saltpoint]

70. History is like the Shuffle function on an iPod -- the little cyber elves

decide what song will play next.

History is a wild smorgasboard of slightly and greatly clashing sensibilities and frames of reference.

Criticism is a minefield. You WILL be offended if you read it long enough, likely within 30 minutes.

I like Teddy R and I like Gore V. Wouldn't want to read History unless people as interesting as they are appear in the record.

[TiberiusGracchus]

71. Gore Vidal is a douche. TR is renowned for refusing to shoot bears in the wild, hence "Teddy Bear"

TR is one of our most conservationist presidents. Setting aside Yellowstone and Yosemite national parks for future generations.

One of the places where "sissy" TR was genuinely trigger-happy was pursuing anti-trust legislation that brought the robber barons of the gilded age to heel, setting the stage for his legendary rivalry with JP Morgan (which Morgan eventually won with the election of Woodrow Wilson and the passage of the Federal Reserve Act of 1914). If Morgan hadn't financed Taft's opposition to TR's nomination, the hapless Wilson wouldn't have won the general election, and he wouldn't have been railroaded by the most powerful bankers of the time into creating the federal reserve bank, which ceded America's financial destiny to an oligarchy which governs our economy to this day.

After passing the Federal Reserve Act Wilson wrote:

“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is now controlled by its system of credit.We are no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”

[Iggo]

86. Don't know anything about Teddy other than the standard PR.

But I like that: Give a sissy a gun and he will kill everything in sight.

[hughee99]

87. TR is as much of a sissy as Polanski's rape victim was a "hooker"...

Vidal is wrong on both counts.

[defendandprotect]

88. I'll go for true . . . little people need big guns -- peace is harder than war . . .

Agree with Gore --

[proteus_lives]

91. You do know that TR won a Nobel Peace Prize.

Then probably went on a hunting trip.

[defendandprotect]

93. Well, didn't Obama just win the Nobel Peace Prize . . . !!!

Just days after escalating troops in Afghanistan and giving a really

repulisive speech ... kinda "war is peace" -- !!!

[proteus_lives]

94. TR earned his.

[defendandprotect]

99. What was that stuff he was doing in Mexico?

[proteus_lives]

104. Clarify please.

[defendandprotect]

106. Wasn't that Teddy calling for war against Mexico?

Imperialist at all?

[proteus_lives]

107. That happened on Wilson's watch.

He was the one who sent troops to Mexico.

I doubt TR had a problem with it though. Villa's troops attacked an American town.

[netsurfer2]

92. Gore Vidal

If someoen were to write about Gore Vidal it would be called....

Give a sissy a MS word program and he will try and slander anyone within his line of sight.

[alphafemale]

95. Just read "The River of Doubt"

If he was a sissy he was rock hardest sissy in the history of rock hard sissies.

Plus, I hear, he was a very wonderful father. There are stories of the halls of the white house echoing with squeals and laughter.

[proteus_lives]

105. He was.

He was distant to his oldest daughter because of his life-long grief over the death of her mother.

He did better with his other children.

Those stories are true. His wife said, "I have six children. Seven, if you count the president."