Do you think we, as a nation, have moved *substantially* forward on matters of race?

[Stinky The Clown]

Substantially is the operative word in this post.

Have we, as a nation, gotten substantially closer to being post racial?

I can be convinced otherwise and keep an open mind on this, but it is my view that we are not.

[ret5hd]

1. Well, when you consider the starting point was slavery...

I'd say yes, we have made substantial gains. But that isn't really saying that much, is it?

[OI812]

3. From slave to President is not substantial?

Okay...

[terrell9584]

37. Except Obama hasn't a drop of slave blood in him

But plenty of slaveowner blood.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. As if that matters in the least

To be African-American you have to have the right pedigree like the Daughters of the American Revolution?

[akbacchus_BC]

49. Who the frig are you? Read your fucking history. Barack Obama's dad

was from Kenya, he was not a fucking slave and he got married to a white girl in the US! For fuck's sake, are you infantile! You people make me sick. Read my fingers, Barack Obama's dad was not a fucking slave in America!

[Stinky The Clown]

4. Let me ask you something .......

..... do you think there are people alive in this country today who would still be okay with slavery?

I am ashamed to say it, but I do. Not a majority. But I do believe they exist. More than a few. Less than a lot. Bback in the days of slavery, were we that much different? I really don't know.

[A HERETIC I AM]

6. You didn't ask me, but yes.

. do you think there are people alive in this country today who would still be okay with slavery?

I do. I've met them.

Yes, they are a tiny majority, but they are out there, and in guises that might surprise you.

[damntexdem]

31. Well, actually, it IS saying much.

And we have made substantial gains in my lifetime, even in the second half of it (I'm 63).

But as President Obama has said, let's not focus on the past. We still have substantial issues of racism with which to deal.

[A HERETIC I AM]

2. I think the fact that we have an African American as President says volumes.

We might not be all the way to "the mountaintop", to quote the great doctor, but having a Black man as President was completely and utterly unthinkable when I was young.

Edited to add the following;
BTW, I'm glad to have recommended your thread. This subject and it's discussion is most certainly worthy of greatest page status.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. I REALLY wish I could agree with that

Yes, it does speak volumes for how far we've come. But how much was it a fluke? It was going to be a woman or a black man last go-round. Either was historic if for no other reasons than that. But has that signaled a change to the status of these two groups - women and blacks? I really hard pressed to say it has. I see many of the very same issues still as issues as we have always faced. The change in laws have helped, too.

But when all is said and done, it is about what people think. Individuals.

I'm not sure there is a substantial change in what people think. It would take only the slightest tip to go from 49% to 51% and effect apparent change. But the fundamentals are damned close to what they were before that apparent changed occurred. I think that's where we are.

(Thanks for the rec. I appreciate that.)

[damntexdem]

32. It's not primarily about what individual people think.

That is important, but it is largely a reflection of racism, not it's total content. Our nation, as the colonies that preceded it, started out based on racism -- not just slavery but also genocide and land theft for which racism was a legitimizing ideology. The end of slavery, and later the essential completion of the major land theft, did not end racism; those developments only transformed it. Racism continued, and a bit attenuated still continues, to categorize people into races and allow greater oppression of those in some categories by some of those in other categories. The structures of privilege and oppression continue to influence how we think, although great strides have been made against them.

[CBR]

5. Obviously electing Obama is a big deal; however, when

you look at health, income, employment, education disparities, the numbers are scary. Further, Hispanic and Arab-Americans are increasingly vilified. It seems any discussions of race, including the role it plays in the discourse surrounding President Obama, is met with the old faves -- "race-baiting," "I have a black friend," "reverse racism" etc...

[redwitch]

14. Whenever there are humans involved.

There will be the stupid. I do think most people have empathy for others but people are so lost and frightened right now that the tendency is to circle the wagons and not let anyone else in. We will need to rise above our human nature, it's why we are here ( on the planet I mean).

[Unvanguard]

7. Yes, if by "moved substantially" you do not mean "have actually gotten anywhere close"

There has been real, concrete improvement, but there is still very far to go until we have something resembling racial equality.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. We agree

If we started at zero and done is one hundred, we may be about twenty or thirty.

[BlueJazz]

8. I believe it depends on what part of the Country.

[elleng]

9. Yes, we've moved a lot. "Post racial" may be a dream.

[waiting for hope]

10. I think by the time my son (he's 8) had grown,

it will be pretty much a non-issue, expect for a few groups in isolated areas. We have never discussed that there is a description on ethnic/skin color that separates people, to him, we are all the same, just with different body types and coloring. A lot of his friends are like minded as well. But I may be hopeful in that statement.

[ZombieHorde]

11. Absolutely yes.

Ending slavery was a substantial step.

Ending the attempted genocide against Native Americans was a substantial step.

Ending Jim Crow was a substantial step.

Being the first country in recorded history to democratically elect a person who belonged to a minority ethnicity was a substantial step.

We are not perfect, but we have substantial movements in the right direction.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. Peru had Alberto Fujimori

He was a political fluke.

Flukes happen.

[ZombieHorde]

23. I googled Alberto Fujimori and learned something new.

I learned Peru is not mostly Japanese.

:P

I truly thought U.S. was the first; oh well, better to know the truth. Thanks for the heads up.

[Stinky The Clown]

25. I had great sushi in Lima once

:)

Just kidding. I've never been to Lima.

[KG]

13. a great leap from the 60s to the 80's. reagan revolution gave cover for the more insidious forms of

institutional racism to hide.

this country is not post racial, not by a long shot. the election black pres has ripped of the veneer to expose the rot and roaches.

[randr]

16. Anyone who does not recognized that there is as much cultural diversity

withing the AfroAmerican community must not think any diversity exists in the AngloAmerican community either.
It is not racism to point this out and it is not racism to have an opinion about any sub-culture.
People are different and not everyone is going to get along.
It is not racist to state that people have as different opinions of the shade of ones skin as they do as to the difference ones dialect.
It is the fear of breaching sensitive subjects that reflects more on an individuals racism than their expression of opinions that may offend others.

[silverhandorder]

17. Race is a thing of the past.

When you look around at the opportunities available for people you notice really fast that race is no longer an issue in a public sphere. In private sphere it is impossible to tell. In any case I don't think it is something we should be concerned over. Europeans are far more racist then us. When that changes then I will worry.

[csziggy]

42. You must not live in the South

Racism is alive and just as evil as it ever was. It has learned to not be as blatant.

Yes we've made a lot of progress since the late fifties when the signs "whites only" or "coloreds" still hung on some buildings in some towns. But there are still communities in which a black person has no chance of buying a house or getting a job. OF course, these days, there will be some other reason that can be claimed instead of that they are black (or Asian or whatever else is being excluded). But that person will still not be able to live or work where they want.

We should all be concerned when hatred diminishes an individual or a group -- it diminishes us all.

[EFerrari]

46. Edit: Northern racism is also alive and well. n/t

[Raineyb]

50. Where do you live?

I live in the United States of America, and I've lived in a few parts of the country and frankly I'm treated better by Europeans in Europe than by my fellow countrymen here.

You think race isn't an issue? Try going for a job interview and having people surprised because they were expecting a white woman to walk in the door. They are never pleasantly surprised in such cases. Why is it that black people in this country even with degrees have higher unemployment rates than our white peers? It's not because we're lazy, unqualified, or incapable that's for damn sure. You'd have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to think that race plays no role in this country.

[customerserviceguy]

19. I used to think so

Right after the riots of the late 1960's, my family moved to the Pacific Northwest. I saw a great lessening of racial tensions there, and yes, we had people of all races in the larger cities and their suburbs. I attributed what I saw to "progress".

Fast forward to today, I moved to NY about three years ago, and I detect all kinds of subtle racism around me. I heard more names for racial slurs than I had ever heard before. It might actually be worse than it was when I was a kid in Indiana, but then, I might have been shielded from the worst of racism because of my age.

I can only come to two conclusions, either the reforms begun forty to fifty years ago have simply not worked, or they may have been counterproductive.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. Yes. We are certainly not post racial, but America has come a long way

[LuvNewcastle]

21. Things are quite a bit different where I live

than they were just a few years before I was born. Black people weren't able to use the same restrooms or water fountains as whites, couldn't go to white restaurants (except maybe to the take-out window), and were excluded from all sorts of public places that we don't even think about today. Black/white couples were harassed and run out of town, if not worse. The threat of lynching was always there.

I think we still have a long way to go with race relations in this country. There's a lot of self-segregation out there in the workplace, churches, schools, etc. But one can't deny that we're leaps and bounds ahead of where we were.

[Stinky The Clown]

22. The good that you cite is because of laws.

Post racial will only happen when people's hearts change.

Have they changed there in any substantial way or number?

[LuvNewcastle]

28. People in my area of the state

are much better now than they were when I was a kid. Sadly, I can't say the same for the entire state. Hearts and minds are more open, though, generally speaking. Most people here realize that everyone else is just doing the same as they are -- trying to get by in life. There's much more of a live and let live attitude.

[Warpy]

24. Gawd, yes.

Some parts of the country and some people have come farther than others, but anybody who experienced the Jim Crow south or the pre bus riot Boston knows we have come an extremely long way in a very short period of time.

That doesn't mean we're there. We still have a very long way to go and it's no time to assume we're due for a rest.

[immoderate]

26. I sense your skepticism. The answer is yes and no.

I think a case can be made that we have moved substantially forward. Descendants of slaves participate in every role in our country.

What you are pointing out is a lack of progress in human relations, which can be manifest in race relations. So it seems that people, in general, do not display a greater regard for each other than they did during slavery.

--imm

[Stinky The Clown]

27. As I said, I am open minded about this.

You make a good case for a large part of the issue.

[damntexdem]

29. Yes, we have several different times.

Of course, we were so backward that several leaps forward have not been enough to make us non-racist, or "post-racial."

Race is a product of racism; and so long as race remains a major (in fact, THE major) social concept, we remain racist.

[slackmaster]

30. Yes, unless we are talking about Japanese whaling vessels colliding with Sea Shepherd vessels

[anonymous171]

34. Yep. Anyone who opposes Japanese whaling is racist.

After all the oppression Japan has suffered at the hands of western powers you'd think that the west would learn to just sit back and let Glorious Nippon do whatever it wants.

[proteus_lives]

44. I love WWII propaganda posters and movies.

I wish I could do a coffee-table book on them.

[AlinPA]

33. For the most part, absolutely yes. But the red areas on this map may be going

backward and they are driven by the fact that the rest of the country elected Obama.
http://countenance.wordpress.com/2008/11/09/the-red-delta-map/

[Socal31]

35. Yes, we have moved forward.

But there will always be racism. Anyone who thinks otherwise sounds like a beauty pageant winner who says she wishes for world peace and a puppy for every child.


This is not exclusive to the US, either. Racism is everywhere. Anytime you get two or more populations together in one place, there will be problems. It is human nature to want to "team up" with people who are like you. This is not always based on race; it can be social class, hobbies, sports teams, or anything else that people feel that brings them together with others. The next logical step is to disparage anyone who isn't like you, mainly out of ignorance or fear of the unknown.

Here in the US, we still have:

- Your stereotypical poor white southern "South will rise again" folk

- Inner city Blacks and Latin Americans who kill each other constantly due to race alone

Worldwide, you have:

- The Xenophobic French who are fighting back against their Islamic immigrants

- Massive amounts of Anti-semitism in the ME

- Israelis who automatically despise any Palestinians


The list can go on, obviously, but I always find it interesting when people act as if the US is the only one with racist idiots.

We are the "melting pot" with every imaginable race and social class living side by side. You could put that anywhere, and there will always be uneducated people who look at skin color and make instant judgments.


To answer the OP directly, I think we have made substantial leaps forward. It wasnt that long ago that humans were being auctioned on the East coast. We have a LOT more room to advance as well. But "post-racial"? No such thing, until we are all some sort of blended skin color somewhere down the line. And even after that happens, we'll find something else to argue with each other about.

[JDPriestly]

36. Absolutely.

I lived in the south in the 1950s. We are a world further on race than we were then. There is no comparison. Intermarriage is accepted with no problems at least in California.

We may have a bigger problem with age discrimination than with race discrimination at this time. Attempts to open job opportunities for minorities in the corporate world have not been as sincere or as successful as they should have been. But the plight of older workers is worse.

Some of the racial inequities are due to historical disadvantages that determine the culture and education of our children. Some of the top names in banking, for example are the descendants of white people who made their fortunes in the 19th century. Some Americans still live on land that was owned by their great-grandparents. Very few of them belong to minorities. The grandparents and parents of many minority children were not given good educational opportunities. How much a child's grandparents read can determine how easily the children and grandchildren learn to read. And entry into top schools can still be very difficult for minorities yet that is the big ticket to belonging to high-level clubs and jobs in some areas of the country.

But, if you pretend that applicants are equal in these cultural and other ways and then compare the difficulty that an older applicant with x number of years of experience and training has in getting hired with that of a younger applicant who belongs to a racial minority, the older applicant has a much tougher time getting a good job.

So, there has been unbelievable progress in terms of race relations in the country. It is still not enough. There is much more to achieve in this area.

But now we have a lot of age discrimination. The economic downturn has made it worse.

[Thirtieschild]

38. We are way ahead of where we were when I was young.

Brown vs. Board of Education came down at the end of my freshman year in college. I was astonished at how horrified my roommates, all from East Texas, were. When I registered to vote in New Orleans in 1960 I was asked my mother's maiden name. The man next to me, old and black, was asked to interpret some arcane part of the constitution. I registered. He didn't. We have a ways to go, but we have come a long way.

[Atticus]

39. Only in the sense that your question, in one form or another, is asked more frequently.

While some of the younger generations don't even FEEL the racial prejudice any more and some of us in the older generation have OVERCOME that prejudice, the prejudice has been only---perhaps---slightly diminished.

Race is, perhaps, the most immediately obvious of the superficial differences that continue to divide us. Gay people or Jewish/Christian/Muslim people or even Republican people may choose to "pass". Black folks can't and, thank goodness, not many feel the need to any more. Maybe, that is "substantial" progress. I believe it is just a change it attitude on the part of black people.

[dionysus]

40. we slowly inch towards that goal but it's going to take a lot, lot longer IMHO

[proteus_lives]

43. Yes.

Gains since the beginning and gains since the 50s and 60s.

I don't think we will ever be post-racial though. No society or culture is. It's not in human nature yet. Maybe in the future.

You have to see the differences now then in when you were born.

[EFerrari]

45. I'm studying the Civil Rights movement for a writing project

and have been thinking about this a lot. I think I agree with Skip Gates. He says on one hand, there are many more black families in the middle class now but, there is also an underclass that is not upwardly mobile and that's a problem. He says that the number of black children living in poverty is not much smaller than it was the day Dr. King died.

Another thing, as a result of whatever integration we've managed, black professionals don't live in the same neighborhoods as working class kids so much any more. So, this group of kids don't have as many professional adult role models as they used to have when everyone lived in the same neighborhood because of segregation. And maybe the anti-intellectual thing with some black youth is a response to this situation where when Dr. Gates was a kid, the "blackest" thing you could be was a professional and education was not ridiculed as it is now.

Some thoughts, anyway.

[voc]

47. No

When President Obama was elected, the sheets came off.
Which also answers your second question.
The fear is palpable and obvious.

It has not substantially gotten closer to post racial.
In fact, it is closer to the way it has always been with the decimation of those laws
that were in place that did make a difference. Affirmative Action which both sides
of the aisle seem to loathe, for example.

While symbolism has its place, if it is not
followed with true change in the way things are done it is no more than a vacuous attempt
to propagandize and narcotize the masses pretending progress has been made.

[akbacchus_BC]

48. This must be a joke thread! Racism is alive and well in the US,

especially since Barack Obama is the President. The Palin sydrome and the teabaggers would love to get rid of him. My only hope is that he survives the hate and be the President we all wanted. Love you Mr. President, Barack Obama!

[boppers]

51. When was the last time we rounded up the Polish? Irish? Japanese? Italians?

We're moving forward, slowly.

[JCMach1]

52. Racism is the gift that keeps on giving...