On Dealing With Teabaggers (this is kind of a rant, sorry)

[Eric Condon]

Let me preface this by saying that it gives me no joy to talk about these sort of things. This entry will be long and rambling, and I am really writing it more for my own benefit than anyone else's, just so I can clear my thoughts. I figured this would be the only place I could really get some support from, and the only place that could maybe talk me down.

I live in Indiana, and therefore have obviously been monitoring the situation with the Senate race pretty closely. For months now, I'd been doing my best to find other candidates to support in the primary (and possibly in the general) against Bayh, since I decided long ago there was no way I was going to vote for him again. A few weeks back, another DUer tipped me off to Tamyra D'Ippolito. I read up on her and decided she was someone I'd be comfortable supporting in the primary. I knew she didn't really have much of a chance of beating Bayh, but I knew I couldn't in good conscience vote for that turd, and so D'Ippolito it was.

For several weeks her the number of fans on her Facebook page hovered around 150. This number literally doubled overnight, and since yesterday has become infested with teabaggers. Not secret troll teabaggers, mind you - the place has turned into full-on FR mode. These people are spewing absolutely the most vile, hateful shit I can imagine. Basically, these people swarmed onto her site to encourage her to run (trying to do the Operation Chaos thing again), and as soon as it became apparent that she didn't get the necessary signatures (which is something I'm still not sure about, since there are so many conflicting accounts), they immediately started mocking her in the most unbelievably sexist and demeaning ways you could possible imagine. I did not think it could possibly get this bad. I did not think other human beings were capable of this. Then I remembered Rush Limbaugh mocking Michael J. Fox, and I remembered, "Oh yeah, I forgot - people are shit."

Anyway, I made the foolish mistake of trying to wade into the toxic sewer of these people's comments, and try to put them in their place when necessary, and also try to gain some understanding. Now, understand, I don't deal with RWers often. I discuss politics with people pretty regularly, but all of my friends are liberal, partly because we all share a similar sensibility about the world (after all, it's why we're friends) and partly because I choose not to associate with certain types. So as I wandered into the hornet's nest, I found the dialogue that went on pretty depressing. That is what I want to talk about today.

It all started with this post that I made:

To all teabaggers trolling this site: don't you people have anything better to do? No one is stupid enough to think you're here for the right reasons. I'm sure Rush mobilized all his mouth-breathing zombie listeners into a GOTV drive for Tamyra since you think she's "unelectable" (after all, women in politics? That's just ridiculous!) But if you're just here to spew your crap, then do us all a favor and STFU.

I admit I wasn't trying to make friends, or be "fair and balanced" here. I was angry at the shit I was seeing. Within minutes, I started to get my first responses, one of which inventively referred to me as "Eric Condom" (Zing! Never heard that one before!) and the other of which referred to me as a "Constitution trampling liberal piece of trash."

However, for whatever reason, I took pity on these freaks. I responded with a long, thoughtful message that I hoped all the teabaggers would read and take to heart. I'd like to repost it here, if you don't mind.

It's funny, all these divisions that exists between your side and ours, because we're not so different. I'm guessing you're probably not rich, you're probably from a blue-collar or middle class background, just like me. We've both been screwed by the same people, and we're both frustrated by some of the same things. But for whatever reason, you are getting your marching orders from people who seek to exploit you. Beck and his ilk are not "men of the people" who are looking out for the little guy. They are highly paid employees of a corporate entity (Fox News) that is a de facto arm of the Republican Party. The Republican Party, like most of the Democratic Party, has bought and paid for by corporations. Very few (like, count-them-on-one-hand levels) of the people in Congress on either side represent our interests. They are put in office to enact policies that benefit corporations. Evan Bayh was the same way. Tamyra is one of the few people running to help change this.

Hilariously, you believe Obama to be a "socialist." Obama's policies are not markedly different from George Bush's. But with Fox News et. al., the point is not to report facts, it's to drill a talking point into viewers' heads enough to where it becomes some simulacrum of the truth. The people giving you your marching orders (Beck, Hannity, Ailes, and their ilk) are not on your side. They, like most politicians, are on the side of corporations. But they understand the value of divide and conquer. They know that if your side and ours were to come together to demand what this country really needs (accountability from its leaders and an end to corporate hegemony) then we would be unstoppable. So they pit us against each other, and satiate our desire for "change" with the illusory charade of "elections" that they allow us to participate in every year.

We're more alike than you know. The divisions in this country are no longer as simple as right-vs-left. It's now a matter of corporations and their allies vs. We the People. This country is not going to live up to its potential until we all realize this, and we all come together to defeat the enemy.

The same guy who called me the "liberal piece of trash" subsequently went on to make a series of bizarre and clearly projecting statements about D'Ippolito, such as that "She is a far left extremist conspiracy theorist - and probably a racist to boot," and ending with "Come on, Tamyra - admit you are a racist!" When I responded that it was hardly a "conspiracy theory" to suggest that the Democratic Party would probably rather run a "safe" centrist in lieu of a genuine progressive (as D'Ippolito contends), the guy simply reiterated his nonsensical accusations.

From here, the thread devolves into a discussion about my use of the word "teabagger," which as far as I knew was a mainstream term used to describe these people. All of them took offense to it, with one poster actually claiming that - I am not kidding here - "when you call people a teabagger or a member of the Tea Bag party you are using a term that is worse than the "N" word when speaking of blacks." Then the conversation naturally turns to how I'm obviously a "socialist" just like Obama, and how - get this - I've "overdosed on the Obama KoolAid." Can you believe they were able to think up this fresh, not-at-all-cliched talking point?

Responding to the "socialist" accusations, I wrote another long-winded reply, which if you don't mind, I'd like to post for you as well, so you can get a sense of the tenor of my responses vs. theirs.

Since the right has twisted the term "socialist" into a meaningless buzzword far removed from its actual meaning, it's come to be that "socialist" is an insult for some reason. There's nothing wrong with socialism. What's wrong is that people are so ignorant other political philosophies to the point that they actually believe Obama is a "socialist." Obama's policies are so not even in the same galaxy as socialism. Economically, he is very much to the right of Richard Nixon. If you were a Bush supporter, and if you actually knew anything about Obama's policies beyond what Glenn Beck blubbers to you, you'd know his policies aren't that different from Bush's. I'm not a huge Obama fan. I don't have any illusions about him. I voted for him, but 24 hours later when he appointed Rahm Emanuel as his Chief of Staff, I knew the fix was in.

Since the GOP has been so successful in deploying its message, what we call "the center" in this country would actually be solidly conservative in any other Western nation, and Obama would be a right-wing candidate. Case in point: he apparently opposes single-payer health care, which every other civilized First World nation on Earth has. The Conservative Party in England would never dream of touching the NHS, just like the GOP here would never consider touching Medicare - it would be disastrous for them. But it just goes to show that how different the paradigm is there.

You and I would both benefit from single-payer health care, which you doubtlessly think of as "socialism." But the MSM will not let you know this, since the MSM are all owned by corporations with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. I'm long past thinking Obama is going to change anything. He's made his sympathies clear.

Since I often foolishly believe that human beings are capable of understanding and empathy, I previously attempted to try and create a dialogue with you folks. I highlighted our similarities, not our differences. Naturally, I was shouted down and belittled for this, and I shouldn't have expected any less. But the point still stands. You are not our enemies. Our enemies are the same as yours. The difference is that we realize this, and you don't. Let us know when you get it.

Naturally, after this, the tone just turns that much more toxic. The first comment after this comes from a guy who goes by the typical confounding RW-blogger-style handle "Bumbling Coats." He writes, "Speaking of Tea Bagging, Eric, what is that on your chin? Leftovers?" Things never look up from there in this thread again.

I only mention "Bumbling Coats" because I soon encountered him again on another thread, wherein he took D'Ippolito to task for posting what appears to be an older photo of herself on her Facebook page, as opposed to one that shows how "fat" she is now according to him. He repeatedly attacks her on various other threads for her weight, and posted a supposed "before and after" picture that supposedly shows "how fat she is now."

I posted, "You people seriously are sick in the head if you think it is acceptable to post this kind of sexist trash. Get help. Seriously."

Surprisingly addressing me as "Mr. Condom," he responded that it isn't sexist to point out that someone is using a picture that was "taken almost 30 years ago" (despite having no proof of this). I responded with this:

The fact that you're talking about it all is sexist. The fact that you think it's acceptable to belittle a woman because of her weight is reflective of how sexist our society is. Since you're a teabagger, it's probably not much of a stretch to assume you're also a racist, a misogynist, and a homophobe, and therefore, I wouldn't expect you to be familiar with the concept of "patriarchy." But yes, in short, what you are doing is unmistakably sexist, and anyone with half a brain can understand that.

After this, the teabaggers predictably play the victim again, accusing me of name-calling while referring to me as a "liberal moonbat" in literally the same sentence.



Look, I know better than to let people get the best of me. I know good and well that these people are just stupid, willfully ignorant, and there is no reasoning with them. But I just wanted to share my story and get some feedback on it. I should also mention that during all these episodes, there wasn't a SINGLE other liberal posting anywhere else on the board backing me up.

Basically, I just wanted to vent about this. I don't think I'll share this experience with anyone else, because I think actually talking about it would work me into such a rage that I'd wind up punching my fist through a wall or something. But see, as much as I follow politics, and as firm as I am in my convictions, I don't really thrive on heated debating. Not because I'm afraid of losing - but because I find the entire experience demoralizing and disillusioning. Two years ago I went down and picketed when Bush spoke in my town. I carried a sign that said "GET OUT OF MY TOWN MURDERER." I was harassed and almost physically attacked on all sides. I was called a "terrorist" (once again, real original). And while I never wavered in my beliefs, the whole thing made me just feel like all of it is just for nothing. None of us are ever really doing anything other than preaching to the choir. There is no hope to try and achieve understanding with these people. And as basic sociology (as well as the movie Idiocracy) dictates, these people, with less education, less sex education, and less access to contraception thanks to religious fundamentalism, will breed like rabbits. I really, truly am afraid that things are only going to get worse in this country. Worse than they are now, which is already terrible.

So basically, here's what I'm asking: is there any reason at all for me to feel hopeful about the future of this country? Or are we doomed? I'm not really a major player here at DU, but I read it constantly, and a lot of you all are people whose opinions I respect a great deal. I figured if anyone could talk me down, it'd be you guys.

So what do we think, folks?

[Warpy]

1. There has always been an impotently shrieking lunatic fringe

in this country with various degrees of organization. Think John Birchers, all the various conspiracy driven groups, anti vivisectionists, and various and sundry crackpots who aren't real smart but think they've discovered the truth about the universe that all of us mere plodding mortals have missed, repent before it's too late!

The computer and bulletin board has allowed these nutcases to move very easily into our space instead of staying isolated on the fringe.

It's always a mistake to engage these people, especially if that's your real name. They are petty, spiteful and vindictive and can easily become a real threat, from harassing phone calls to unwanted porn magazine subscriptions to worse if they really got licked in an argument.

My best advice to you is to email Ms. D'Ippolito with your comments and let the facebook garbage die an ignominious death. Chances are the nutcases will find a new target tomorrow and forget about you. Just be aware that they might not. These people are scum and some are dangerous.

(and people wonder why I don't bother with FB)

[Eric Condon]

2. Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely not engaging them any further

and all my FB info is completely private, but it's just generally been a pretty depressing and pointlessly exhausting enterprise. I'm done with it.

[provis99]

3. keep in mind that the Internet can be a focal point for freaks.

You may never meet one in real life in Indiana (or at least a group of 100 at once), and the reason seems to be that extremists love the Internet more than average people. My advice is completely shut them out; they are irrational and in person are probably dangerous. These are the types of people who join militias and go on shooting sprees at Jewish community centres.

On the other hand, DU is relatively sane, as are Kos and the Huffington Post.

If anything, cruising the dark caverns of the internet have given me an appreciation for the ordinary ignorant voters around my town who are well meaning, but may still vote Republican. Tea baggers are in the .1% fringe as evidenced by their convention numbers; they make Ron Paul groupies look relatively sane, and even the John Birchers want very little to do with them.

Or you could always move to Canada.

[saracat]

4. Hey there Eric!What a brave and reasonable soul you are

You are a a thoroughly decent person trying to win an unwinnnable argument.Those people have closed minds and eyes.I,too, live in fear for our nation.I wish I could talk you down but I can't.I think we had a chance to do better and turn ourselves around and i am very much afraid we may have blown it and the electorate seems overrun by the stupid on both sides of the aisle.And as our educational system is being dismantled, I see no reason for them to be more intelligent in the future.I fear I have always suspected that was the intention of the RW all along and it took a Democratic Administration to fulfill their dreams.

I will continue to fight to elect progressives on every level but my fear is, it isn't going to matter.As long as people refuse on both sides of the divide to recognize what the real problems are, I do not think we can have a solution.

[jtuck004]

5. Article about them in the NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/us/politics/16teaparty.html?ref=politics

scary, confused, angry, going in a hundred competing directions. They remind me of rats swarming over a carcass when they find a politician they don't like. And well-armed, too. Overgrown bullies.

Bill Maher was on Larry King tonight, basically said that type is lost, no reasoning with them, just write them off. So while I used to try to discuss things with the, based on what I am reading in the OP, a former friend of mine, and some news reports, I tend to agree.

As far as your question, however, we may be doomed, but not from the teabaggers.

[Make7]

6. Please check your PM's. ( n/t )

[Make7]

7. It is true that once they found out what a 'Teabagger' was they objected to the label.

The main problem many people encounter in communicating with someone with a viewpoint that is radically different than your own is talking past each other. Each person is talking and listening with different enough perspectives that little communication is actually taking place.

Many people on the left would automatically tune out someone touting FoxNews as a source for their information - and people who watch Fox will dismiss out of hand anyone on the left trashing Fox. Once someone makes it obvious they are not taking the other person seriously or someone takes a defensive posture communication is next to impossible.

You have to attempt to be diplomatic to talk with most people with whom you strongly disagree. Try viewing things from their perspective. From a tea party member's viewpoint, there is something derogatory in every one of your FB posts. If the goal is to try to convince, you have to be non-confrontational and be persuasive. Which may not be successful because many people are impervious to facts when it comes to politics. For many this is because the political beliefs are their worldview. When facts contradict that worldview usually they will rationalize away the facts rather than reevaluate their worldview.

Usually an extraordinary amount of patience is required and it often results in little more than learning how to communicate slightly better with those you disagree. People are often irrationally attached to their beliefs and are unlikely to change their viewpoint no matter how well you present the opposite case. Small, incremental steps usually work best. Also explaining things in more detail than you normally would to avoid misunderstandings is helpful. All that being said, the ability to convince people to see things from your point of view and even come to some agreement on things is a valuable skill to possess. (I used to think politician were supposed to be good at that.)

Those FB tea party members seem hopeless though. You might want wait a couple days and go back and look at your FB exchange and try viewing what you wrote from their perspective and see if you understand why it might have rubbed people the wrong way. (Of course, only when the intention was not to rub people the wrong way.) For some people, no matter what you say or do, it will rub them the wrong way.

Peace

[Eric Condon]

8. That's the thing though, I felt like the substance of what I said was really diplomatic.

I mean, sure, as it wore on, I basically stopped holding back and really jumped on that one guy for his bullshit. But in those two long posts, I really was thinking there might be the possibility of some connection there. I tried to empathize with them. I tried to frame it in terms of us having common enemies. I didn't praise Obama at all. In fact, this was probably the most telling aspect of the exchange - even after I registered my disappointment with Obama, they STILL accused me of being some sort of die-hard Obama supporter. I wondered, had they even read my words at all? Then it occurred to me - these people cannot grasp complexity of ideas at all. To them, I don't watch Fox News, and therefore, I must be a "socialist." You know, like my socialist heroes Obama and Bill Clinton.

One thing I was taken aback by is just how whiny these people are. I mean, sure, I know Palin has more or less made a career by using faux outrage to stay in the spotlight, but I seriously cannot believe how much these people play the victim at every turn. To hear them tell it, liberals are "full of hate" and are intolerant of dissent. Projecting much? I guess they've learned from KKKarl Rove well - take your own weaknesses, and accuse your opponent of being that very thing.

These people are no different than those church groups who protest on college campuses and just yell pointlessly inflammatory things, hoping to get attacked so they can sue. Or like the people from the Fred Phelps church. They're not even at the level of being "bullies." They're just sniveling insects motivated by hate and destructiveness.

Like many other liberals, I have a history of getting burned when I give my fellow man too much credit. I guess I really was naive to think human beings could just relate to each other as humans.