"Colored folks all work on de Mississippi, Colored folks all work while de White folks play."

[Liberal_in_LA]

My childhood guitar teacher would have me play songs that referred to 'darkies'. Even as a teen I thought this is racist bullshit

Saint Mary's punishes professor for choosing racist song
By Matt Krupnick

MORAGA — Saint Mary's College has punished a singing instructor, who is the brother of a college trustee, for his choice to use a song that uses racist terms in a voice class last month.

College leaders said Monday the incident called into question Louis Lebherz's future at the school. The musician already has been forced to apologize to the class and to complete diversity training, said Beth Dobkin, the college's provost.

Lebherz, an artist in residence at Saint Mary's, had been asked to teach classes this year, Dobkin said. His choice to use the original version of the show tune "Old Man River," which refers to slaves and African-Americans in derogatory terms, will affect his employment, she said.

"It already has, but I can't tell you to what extent," Dobkin said. "We're continuing to discuss our future relationship with him."

Lebherz did not respond to messages left on his home and mobile phones Monday. His brother, Saint Mary's trustee Philip Lebherz, also did not respond to a phone message.

In a letter written to the African-American student who raised the complaint, Lebherz apologized for his choice of the original score. The offensive language was taken out of later versions of the song.

"I sincerely wish to apologize to you for my insensitivity in having a student sing a song which called attention to the racial problems that were and are a serious problem for our nation, and also for our own institution," Lebherz

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14962776?nclick_check=1

[ecstatic]

1. Uggh. Freepers are LOSING it

[Rebubula]

7. OK...

...and this involves Freepers HOW?

[Nikki Stone1]

63. The song was written by a former Vice President of the NAACP

Not by a freeper.

1927
Old Man River
Show Boat
Hammerstein/Kern


Oscar Hammerstein: Civil rights activist, VP of the NAACP.

[YOY]

2. "Old Man River" is racist?

It's one of the saddest songs I can think of. The evolution of the lyrics from the original fatalism to a message of hope is interesting too.

I guess it could be construed as racist if one looks at the archaic words there...just like if you read Huck Finn and fail to see that Jim was more of a man and a father to Huck than huck's own all for the sake of how Jim is described.

I could also be abused to convey a racist message as well...

[ecstatic]

10. Put yourself in that student's shoes nt

[liberalhistorian]

31. Remember when it was written; at a time when such

horrendous language was perfectly normal and was the way of speaking about such things at the time. It's only been in later years that the lyrics have been changed. I love the music, as did this teacher obviously, but he damn well should have known better than to have used the original, blatantly racist language. I didn't realize they even printed the original versions of it anymore.

[csziggy]

49. "Show Boat", the musical from which Old Man River" is taken is about racism

But it is a wonderful lesson in how evil racism is and how it hurts normal people.

If the instructor did not teach the history of the song and where the words came from, he failed to do his job. But I do not believe that "Old Man River" should be removed from the 'playlist' of American music.

[Toasterlad]

68. Wait...You're Actually Paying Attention To What the Song Is SAYING? We Don't DO That On DU!

We have knee-jerk reactions to any perceived slur, no matter what the context! Anything else is racist! Or sexist! Or homophobic!

The only way to abolish racism is to pretend black people were never oppressed! The sooner we forget it ever happened, the sooner it can never, ever happen again! No Showboat! No Huckleberry Finn! No pictures from Little Rock! Black people and white people have always gotten along great! Period!

[CBGLuthier]

3. Paul Robeson laughs at all of you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh9WayN7R-s

Bowlderizing songs sucks.

[Lance_Boyle]

6. It's Bowdlerizing, and it is a heinous act against art.

I wonder if St. Mary's college allows images of David in its art classes? Or analysis of "Huckleberry Finn" in the English department?

What a stupid, stupid thing for an institute of higher learning (hah!) to do.

[Wilber_Stool]

13. I just watched "Show Boat" on TCM.........n/t

[fishwax]

56. i doubt that -- since he himself changed the lyrics in his own performances, and wouldn't perform

the original lyrics in the years after that version of Showboat was released. And even that version that you posted is changed from the original, which used the n-word instead of "darkies" for the lines mentioned in the OP.

[Ken Burch]

4. After the controversy, did they switch to the Paul Robeson version of the lyrics?

(I've bolded Robeson's changes to the lyrics, for those who don't remember)

There's an old man called the Mississippi
That's the old man I don't like to be!
What does he care if the world's got troubles?
What does he care if the land ain't free?

Old man river,
That old man river
He must know sumpin'
But don't say nuthin',
He just keeps rollin'
He keeps on rollin' along.

He don't plant taters,
He don't plant cotton,
And them that plants 'em
Is soon forgotten,
But old man river,
He just keeps rollin' along.

You and me, we sweat and strain,
Body all achin' and racked with pain,
Tote that barge!
And lift that bale!
You show a little grit...)
And you lands in jail.

But I keeps laughin'
Instead of cryin'
I must keep fightin'
Until I'm dyin'
And old man river,
He just keeps rollin' along



(That would make a BIG difference if they did.

[theophilus]

12. Well, they're great alright. He does say he would like to be Ol'

Man River, though, and later in the number he uses "darkies". I think these are all teaching opportunities. Going to extremes in the defense of anything is not always justified and can do more harm than good, IMO.

[gratuitous]

26. Or the Stan Freberg version

Which, if you're familiar with the song, is a scream. Mildly humorous nevertheless if you're not familiar with the lyrics:

Freberg: Just kidding, just kidding. But it's great to be with you tonight. We have a special--
Tweedly: Pardon me, Mr. Freberg, but my name is Tweedly.
Freberg: Well, we all have our problems.
Tweedly: I am the censor from the citizens radio committee. And, um... I feel--
Freberg: You uh... from the citizens radio committee, you say?
Tweedly: That's exactly what I said, yes. I--
Freberg: And what is your purpose in being here?
Tweedly: I must okay all the material used on your program here, and I think the best method is to just sit back here and interrupt when I feel it's necessary.
Freberg: You mean you plan to stop me every time I do something that YOU think is wrong?
Tweedly: Exactly. I'll just sound my little horn like this (buzzer). And then you stop, and I'll tell you what's wrong.
Freberg: Uh, somehow I can tell this is gonna be one of those days.
Tweedly: You just go right ahead, Mr. Freberg. Don't mind me.
Freberg: Yeah, now I'd like to sing-- (buzzer)
Tweedly: You forgot to say "thank you", Mr. Freberg. Politeness is an essential in radio programming. Your program goes into the home, we must be a good influence on... children.
Freberg: Why, that's a darling little horn there.
Tweedly: Mmm-hmm.
Freberg: Thanks very much, Mr. Tweedly.
Tweedly: You're welcome, I'm sure.
Freberg: I'd like to sing a old river song in honor of this week of National Mississippi Riverboat Paddlewheel Week. Mr. May, if you please?
Tweedly: Very polite, Mr. Freberg.
Freberg: Thank you.

Old man river, that old-- (buzzer)

All right, Tweedly, politeness I dig, but what in the world is wrong with "old man river"?
Tweedly: The word "old" has a connotation that some of the more elderly people find distasteful. I would suggest you make the substitution, please.
Freberg: I suppose you insist.
Tweedly: Precisely. You may continue.
Freberg: Okay, music (buzzer).
Tweedly: You forgot to say--
Freberg: Thank you, yes, okay. Thank you, Mr. Tweedly.
Tweedly: You're quite welcome, I am sure.

Freberg:
Elderly man river, that elderly man river.
He must know somethin', but he don't say nothin'. (buzzer)

All right, hold it, fellas. Now what, Tweedly?
Tweedly: The word "something", you left off the G.
Freberg: But that's authentic. "Somethin'," "someTHIN'". That's the way the people... talk down there.
Tweedly: I'm sorry. The home is a classroom, Mr. Freberg.
Freberg: I know, you said that.
Tweedly: Keep in mind the tiny tots. And... But furthermore, think back. You'll recall that you said "but he don't say nothin'".
Freberg: Mmm-hmm.
Tweedly: Now, really, Mr. Freberg, that's a double negative.
Do you mean he DOES say something?
Freberg: No, I just wasn't using my head, I guess.
Tweedly: I mean, after all, it should be grammatically correct, keeping in mind--
Freberg: The tiny tots, yes.
Tweedly: You probably mean he doesn't say anything.
Freberg: I don't-- I suppose I mean that, yes, I guess. All right, uh fine, you win. All right, Billy, music (buzzer). Thank you, thank you.
Tweedly: You're welcome, I'm sure.

Freberg:
Elderly man river, that elderly man river
He must know something, but he doesn't say anything
He just keeps rollin'-- rolling,
He just keeps rolling along.
He don't (buzzer) doesn't plant taters-- potatoes,
He doesn't plant cotton/cotting,
And then these/those that plants them are soon forgotting.
But elderly man river, he just keeps rolling along.
Tweedly: Excellent!
Freberg: Thank you.
You and me-- (buzzer)

The uh, the tiny tots again, was it?
Tweedly: Exactly.
Freberg: Sorry about that, here we go.

You and I; we sweat, (buzzer) perspire and strain
Body's all aching and wracked with pain. Well, we got by that one.
Tote that barge, lift that bail!
You get a little...

Okay, take your finger off the button, Mr. Tweedly. We know when we're licked. Well, that concludes "Elderly Man River" (buzzer). Oh, yes, and thank you for being with us, Mr. Tweedly.
Tweedly: You're welcome, I'm sure.

[Hannah Bell]

101. love stan freberg. apparently forgotten.

[elleng]

5. Show Boat was on TCM last week.

[elleng]

8. We've got to get our acts together,

and recognise our history and our culture, and CELEBRATE the differences between cultures in this country.

RECOGNIZING we are of different races IS NOT RACIST.

[Liberal_in_LA]

21. "niggers work on de Mississippi; niggers work while de white folks play."

[elleng]

28. Oh, you've heard that in some production,

or was that in the original lyric?

I found this, to answer my own question, and I'd call this 'story' a big part of OUR STORY.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=31195

[Warpy]

9. "Old Man River" is a classic

and the version that's playing in my head is Paul Robeson's, the magnificent bass voice that would shake the house if I turned it up too far.

It's too bad the words weren't used for a teaching moment, wouldn't have taken more than 10 minutes, tops.

After all, the song when it was introduced had been written to demonstrate injustice, not perpetuate it. Robeson understood that when he sang it and that African American student was apparently ignorant of that fact.

Unfortunately, so were the college leaders who got all bent out of shape over a student complaint.

[elleng]

14. Exactly, Warpy, and we've got to acknowledge

history and our differences. Show Boat was on TCM last week, and I learned a thing or two even then.

PERFECT teaching moment.

[csziggy]

53. All you'd have to do is play the video from the 1936 version of Show Boat

Linked above in the Paul Robeson post. The visuals in that clip tell the entire story, and the movie tells more of the story.

I guess if the teacher is not willing or able to teach this lesson, though, they should leave that song out of their plans. But it is sad that students today do not learn these lessons of the past. I should not be surprised, I did not in school or in college. I had to learn about this later in life.

[BlooInBloo]

11. Clearly they're oversensitive reverse racists. And it's just a few bad apples, too.

[Liberal_in_LA]

20. "niggers work on de Mississippi; niggers work while de white folks play."

I wouldn't want to be asked to sing this.

[BlooInBloo]

27. Obviously you hate white folks.

:P

[elleng]

33. and neither did Paul Robeson.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=31195

There ARE reasonable alternatives, of course, to reflect facts without being inflammatory.

[Obamanaut]

45. Racism is racism. How can there be a reverse of it?

A belief that one race is inherently superior or inferior to others (or another)

[BlooInBloo]

55. I'm very sorry your snarkometer is broken.

[hedgehog]

15. When that song was written, "colored" was the polite term.

"Black" would have been an insult.

[Cleita]

18. It seems that it still is in certain references. Actress Halle Berry used the

term, "people of color" in her Oscar acceptance speech a few years back.

[fishwax]

57. when that song was written, "colored" wasn't the term that was used

The original lyrics used the n-word; for the 1936 film with Robeson it was changed to "darkies."

[Cleita]

16. I noticed they rewrote one of the songs in "Westside Story" too.

It was about how wonderful America was if "you are white in America". Can't remember the title of the song, but that's the part they rewrote. I don't know about being politically correct when it comes to historical artistic material. What if "Birth of a Nation" was recut to make it less KKK. It's part of the history of that time. This kind of censorship reminds me of the list of condemned books I wasn't allowed to read in Catholic school because those books, many of them works of fiction, made the Church look bad.

[Toasterlad]

70. Many Musicals Are Changed For the Movies.

The stage version of West Side Story still has the original lines.

[hedgehog]

17. According to this source, the original lyrics were assigned:

he had a student sing the original version of the show tune "Old Man River," which refers to blacks as n-word

http://blackpoliticalthought.blogspot.com/2010/04/louis-lebherz-disciplined-by-st-marys.html


My take is that the shock value is one way to educate young college students about conditions before the Civil Rights Era. You can talk all you want to about prejudice, but you feel that word in your gut!

[Liberal_in_LA]

19. "niggers work on de Mississippi; niggers work while de white folks play."

Thanks. I didn't have the original

[Cleita]

22. That word was used all through the miniseries "Roots".

Thats how both the slaves and slave owners spoke in those days.

[Liberal_in_LA]

23. So a music teacher feels it's ok to have a student sing it?

Heck no

[Cleita]

25. He probably doesn't now. n/t

[ecstatic]

24. would you feel comfortable if you were the only female student in a class

and you were asked to sing a song with the word "c*nt" in it?

[Cleita]

29. If it were an old classic? Yes. I would consider it of historical curiosity.

There is so much in popular music today that is clearly misogynistic. Fifty years from now, people probably will be shocked as well.

[ecstatic]

32. I guess your comment proves that racism is worse

than sexism.

[Cleita]

37. My comment only proves that literature and song through the ages

is full of words that are offensive to certain groups of people. I suppose we should purge all that is offensive. I'm afraid we would end up with nothing. Your statement of what is worse is only in your head and has nothing to do with mine.

[ecstatic]

38. I just hope you're not a teacher

You're very out of touch and insensitive to what minority students may be feeling.

[Cleita]

40. I'm just an old woman who is not a teacher, but I am a minority myself.

However, I know the difference when I'm being insulted and when I'm looking into the past as the way things were. It's a good lesson in not going down that road again like with the Arizona, "show me your papers" law. Now this is in the present and I'm very insulted by it. This is real obscenity.

[Toasterlad]

69. I Just Hope That YOU Are Never In a Position to Teach Anyone Anything

Your complete disregard for history is appalling.

[Liberal_in_LA]

30. good analogy

[hedgehog]

35. That's not a good analogy, because "c*nt" has never been used

in polite society but the n word was used freely by whites. The first time I heard it was out of the mouth of a five year old when I was about seven. He'd just moved to Ohio from New Orleans. I'd never heard the word, but I knew it was bad.

The N word has been appropriated and turned around by some African-Americans just as some gays use the term queer as a badge of pride. In fact, this song may be the first time recorded use of the term this way. I am unaware of any woman referring to herself proudly as a c*nt.

[Nikki Stone1]

62. And you really shouldn't put it in the title of your post either

Just sayin....

[hedgehog]

34. Another commentator's take :

This is a protest song, more ironic than angry perhaps, but a protest nonetheless. In the singers hands, the word nigger has a sardonic tone, in Pete’s hands it is simply contemptuous as Pete demands of Queenie, “Where y’all get dat brooch you’re wearing?” She declines to answer. Onstage, Steve and Pete scowl at each other, while Windy, standing on the Cotton Blossom, observes it all.

A chorus of precious young white women enter, and cluster around a picture that Steve has just hung up. This is Julie, and the young women admire her beauty, even as the black girls parody their manner – in essence a cakewalk on their part. A handsome young man enters into a singing dialogue with the white girls, announcing Capt. Andy’s show and the handsomest man, Stephen Baker and beautiful Julie LaVerne as well. Simulataneously the black chorus return to their theme of the woes of the life, just the white chorus sing of laughter and thrills.

Thus in the very opening, Hammerstein has established the gulf between the races, the privilege accorded the white folks and denied the black, and a flavor of the contempt built into the very language that whites used about African-Americans. This is a very effective scene.

http://heronwatermusic.blogspot.com/2005/12/show-boat.html

[ecstatic]

39. So what? You don't tell a student to sing a song littered with the word "n*gger"

:wtf: She didn't sign up for that shit.

[hedgehog]

42. Thinking it over, why would a soprano, contralto or alto be

assigned a song in the bass baritone range?

[csziggy]

54. Search for "Old Man River" on YouTube - there are versions by women

Notably:
Judy Garland - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XVU_KbGuqI
Aretha Franklin - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkBciad6s_s

[Nikki Stone1]

43. Unless it's rap.....

:hide:

[ecstatic]

44. Well, it should be someone's personal choice

not mandated by a teacher.

[Nikki Stone1]

46. Here's the problem. Much of musical theater is becoming "Classical Music" now

Especially anything by Hammerstein, Kern, Rodgers, Porter, Gershwin, etc. There is now a whole area of musicology devoted to this music at the universities.

Hammerstein and Kern's 1927 Show Boat has now become a classic, similar to opera.

"Old Man River" was a song written by Oscar Hammerstein II and Jerome Kern to express the struggles of blacks during Jim Crow and it was revolutionary for its time. Hammerstein was a VP of the NAACP and a major civil rights activist. The problem is its time has past, and now, in retrospect, it looks VERY racist. And that's a shame because it was exactly the opposite in its time.

Music teachers have been trained with this music without being given the political training that goes with it; understanding that the song had a particular political context, and that context is gone.

[burning rain]

36. No sense in worrying about someone dumb enough to think this wouldn't cause problems.

It may be that Louis Lebherz's intentions were perfectly good, progressive, and antiracist in an edgy way, but a person as foolish as him is bound to come to grief. I wouldn't say that a person who habitually crosses the street without looking deserves to get run over, but it's gonna happen, folks.

Note the obvious and pointed use of irony in the statement:

"I sincerely wish to apologize to you for my insensitivity in having a student sing a song which called attention to the racial problems that were and are a serious problem for our nation, and also for our own institution,"

I'm betting that Lebherz is a smart guy who, however, lacks wisdom.

[Nikki Stone1]

48. Actually, there's a lot of reason to worry: this wasn't a "dumb" mistake but an uninformed one

"Old Man River" was a song written by Oscar Hammerstein II and Jerome Kern to express the struggles of blacks during Jim Crow and it was revolutionary for its time. Hammerstein was a VP of the NAACP and a major civil rights activist. The problem is its time has past, and now, in retrospect, it looks VERY racist. And that's a shame because it was exactly the opposite in its time.

Music teachers have been trained with this music without being given the political training that goes with it; understanding that the song had a particular political context, and that context is gone. This leads to a conflict: music teachers wanting to teach "classic" American music but the perception by students of this song as irredeemably racist. Teachers need to be trained about the politics as much as about the music.

[burning rain]

65. I don't see any reason to doubt Lebherz understood the original context & "slant" of the song.

Indeed, the quote I excerpted suggests that he did. However, in the end, like it or not, audience response counts for more than authorial intent, original social-political-historical context, etc., and Lebherz really should have foreseen a strongly negative reaction.

[treestar]

41. I wondered about Stephen Foster songs

I have some sheet music, and they refer to darkies. I suppose they are part of history, though.

[Nikki Stone1]

47. The song in the OP was written by a former Vice President of the NAACP

The song was meant to show the effect of Jim Crow racism in the 1920s and to fight against it. Times, of course, have changed.

[Nikki Stone1]

50. The words in the OP title are not usually sung with Old Man River (they are in the backup chorus)

Usually the song is shortened in solo performance. It was meant to be a railing against Jim Crow racism.


Here are the actual words:


Ol' man river,
Dat ol' man river
He mus'know sumpin'
But don't say nuthin',
He jes'keeps rollin'
He keeps on rollin' along.

He don' plant taters/tators,
He don't plant cotton,
An' dem dat plants'em
is soon forgotten,
But ol'man river,
He jes keeps rollin'along.

You an'me, we sweat an' strain,
Body all achin' an' racket wid pain,
Tote dat barge!
Lif' dat bale!
Git a little drunk
An' you land in jail.

Ah gits weary
An' sick of tryin'
Ah'm tired of livin'
An' skeered of dyin',
But ol' man river,
He jes'keeps rolling' along.
]

Don't look up
An' don't look down,
You don' dast make
De white boss frown.
Bend your knees
An'bow your head,
An' pull date rope
Until you' dead.)


O' man river,
Dat ol' man river,
He mus'know sumpin'
But don't say nuthin'
He jes' keeps rollin'
He keeps on rollin' along.

Long ol' river forever keeps rollin' on...

He don' plant tater,
He don' plant cotton,
An' dem dat plants 'em
Is soon forgotten,
but ol' man river,
He jes' keeps rollin' along.

Long ol' river keeps hearing dat song.
You an' me, we sweat an' strain,
Body all achin an' racked wid pain.
Tote dat barge!
Lif' dat bale!
Git a little drunk
An' you land in jail.

Ah, gits weary
An' sick of tryin'
Ah'm tired of livin'
An' skeered of dyin',
But ol' man river,
He jes'keeps rollin' along!

[ecstatic]

51. Let's try this again. Imagine if Rush Limbaugh was a professor and assigned

that song. Would you still think it was an innocent history lesson? That student doesn't know that prof or his/her motives. All she knows is that a white person assigned a song that contains the "n-word." It does not matter what message the song is trying to get across or why.

[hedgehog]

58. None of us here knows whether or not the professor explained

the meaning of the song, and whether or not the student listened.

[Nikki Stone1]

60. But if the song was a solo, we DO know that the words in the OP were not used

They are a choral response, not the solo portion. When the solo is performed (and that's the ONLY way it's performed outside of the musical), you don't get any of the choral response. The OP was misleading and inflammatory. That said, the solo lyrics aren't that great either, and the song should not be performed without a great understanding of its political and theatrical history.

[Nikki Stone1]

59. Let's try this again, ecstatic: And this time, listen. Really. Listen.

I'll start with post #46, which was written before you decided to scream at me:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8226066&mesg_id=8227569


Much of musical theater is becoming "Classical Music" now
Especially anything by Hammerstein, Kern, Rodgers, Porter, Gershwin, etc. There is now a whole area of musicology devoted to this music at the universities. Because it is becoming "classic" it is finding its way into music curricula.

"Old Man River" was a song written by Oscar Hammerstein II and Jerome Kern to express the struggles of blacks during Jim Crow and it was revolutionary for its time. Hammerstein was a VP of the NAACP and a major civil rights activist. The problem is the song's time has past, and now, in retrospect, it looks VERY racist. And that's a shame because it was exactly the opposite in its time.

Music teachers have been trained with this music as "American classical music" without being given the political training that goes with it; understanding that the song had a particular political context, and that context is gone.


______________________

And then this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8226066&mesg_id=8227576

The song in the OP was written by a former Vice President of the NAACP

The song was meant to show the effect of Jim Crow racism in the 1920s and to fight against it. Times, of course, have changed.


______________________________
And finally this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8226066&mesg_id=8227607

"Old Man River" was a song written by Oscar Hammerstein II and Jerome Kern to express the struggles of blacks during Jim Crow and it was revolutionary for its time. Hammerstein was a VP of the NAACP and a major civil rights activist. The problem is its time has past, and now, in retrospect, it looks VERY racist. And that's a shame because it was exactly the opposite in its time.

Music teachers have been trained with this music without being given the political training that goes with it; understanding that the song had a particular political context, and that context is gone. This leads to a conflict: music teachers wanting to teach "classic" American music but the perception by students of this song as irredeemably racist. Teachers need to be trained about the politics as much as about the music.


_____________

Ok, you get where I am going? OR do you just want to scream at me some more?

[The Green Manalishi]

67. I think you are arguing with one of the densest people I've EVER

seen on this or nearly any other forum. Even denser than the student in question.

[ecstatic]

71. One last time for the people living in their own worlds

This was a VOICE class at a university--not a play, not a reading assignment in history or english class. A VOICE class where songs were chosen for the purpose of SINGING.

The incident came at a particularly fragile time for the Catholic school. Administrators have tried to make the college a more welcoming place for minorities since 2008, when regional accreditors criticized the school for having shoddy race relations and a lack of diversity.

Imagine you go into a VOICE CLASS at a Catholic college that has already been criticized for racial problems. Imagine you are the only gay/black/latino/woman (choose one) in the class. The professor then proceeds to assign a song that is very important in the historical context, but it contains bigoted slurs. Would the fact that the song is of historical importance make it easier to sing a song that has those words? Would you feel comfortable? And keep in mind, you do not know the professor or his/her motives--is the person a bigot whose sole purpose is to make you uncomfortable, or is it all just a coincidence?

This is NOT the same thing as the song being performed by a willing group of actors at a play. It's not even the same as being told to read the song for an english or history class. The student was asked to SING this song, full of the offensive words, in front of a group of people.

[LanternWaste]

52. Guess we should print a sanitized edition of...

I guess we should print a sanitized edition of the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn for colleges too.

[Nikki Stone1]

61. There's a difference between novels and performances.

Novels can be contained within their covers. They can be put down, they can be historicized, and they can be easily seen as representative of a particular time and place.

Each performance, however, is new, and is a live relationship between performer and audience. Performances occur in the context of "now" and in a personal, intimate relationship with audience. There's not the time to give each song the historical couching it needs, and the default context of any sung performance becomes the here and now.

[LanternWaste]

74. as does the default context of any work of art....

"The default context of any 'book read' becomes the here and now..." as does the default context of any work of art-- whether it's a painting by Don Troiani, a book by Clemens, a poem by Vachel Lindsay, or a musical by Kern and Hammerstein.

As always, I believe the responsibility for both context and interpretation lies with the observer regardless of medium.

[mitchum]

64. It's not a very good song

[Toasterlad]

66. Context Be Damned! Words Are All!

I guess they can never do Showboat again on Broadway. It's racist. Or Porgy & Bess. Or Dreamgirls. Or Smokey Joe's Cafe. Or Ragtime.

Never mind what the song is SAYING. Only the WORDS matter!

Stupid, stupid country.

[ecstatic]

72. see post 71

:eyes:

[Toasterlad]

76. See Post 75

Then try and come to grips with what an ass you're making of yourself.

[Raineyb]

73. Where exactly did you get the impression that this was a performance for

an audience rather than an exercise for a class.

It was not necessary for a class exercise to choose THIS song. No one is saying that the songs could never be performed on Broadway. A classroom is not Broadway last I checked. The context for the complaint ought to mean something but you're outraged without knowing it while complaining about not knowing context.

Gotta love irony. Stupid, stupid post.

[Toasterlad]

75. Where Exactly Did You Get the Impression That That Makes the Slightest Bit of Fucking Difference?

So, by your logic, it was only bad because it wasn't going to be performed for an audience. You can write all the racist songs you want, as long as you're going to perform them in front of someone, but to make a student play it just as an exercise is racist.

AWESOME logic.

Meanwhile, you are clearly not familiar with the song Old Man River, or the musical for which it was written, and yet, you declare you find it offensive. You can see why it's difficult for me to take your lecture that "The context for the complaint ought to mean something but you're outraged without knowing it." seriously even a little bit.

People won't laugh at you NEARLY as much if you don't go out of your way to embarrass yourself like that.

[Raineyb]

82. When exactly did you get the idea that having your head up your ass made you an expert

on anything? Do you even fucking read?

You act as though people were advocating that the plays never be performed. An argument that was never made but that didn't stop you from ignorantly making your argument as though it had been. This was a classroom exercise. Why the fuck should the student be put in a position to have to sing a song that clearly made her uncomfortable in a classroom where the number of people of color could probably be counted on one bloody finger.

The lyrics sure as hell are offensive, and are in line with the song and the period that it's in. And if it were a performance of said musical and the student had a choice of whether or not she could participate that would be an entirely different story. This was not the case and I don't think it's too much to ask not to have a student forced to sing a song that obviously made her uncomfortable. But YOU doth declare that she should sing the song and not have a problem with it because it was in the context of the past.

How very white of you.

[Toasterlad]

89. What You Think Is Too Much To Ask Is, Thankfully, Not Relevant.

Clearly, the student who objected to using the song shares your knee-jerk ignorance.

Should I be upset if someone asks me to sing La Vie Boheme, from Rent, which contains the lyrics "to faggots, lezzies, dykes, cross-dressers too"? No, I should NOT be upset, because I know that the song is an AFFIRMATION, not a homophobic rant. Just like Old Man River is an AFFIRMATION, not a racist rant. And I didn't need a music teacher to tell me that La Vie Boheme is not homophobic, nor that Old Man River is not racist. Because I actually READ THE SONG.

Now, it's possible that you don't give a shit about what gay people would find offensive, so my analogy may be lost on you. That's fine: I really don't give a shit what you think of me. I'll sum it up for you thusly: I would never dream of telling anyone what they should or should not find offensive, even if I could. Just like no one can never stop me from ridiculing ignorant people like you and that student for taking offense at something without even making an effort to find out what it SAYS.

How very dim of you.

[political_Dem]

77. Isn't it sad that there are people who won't even "see" the racism involved?

They'll fight and scream bloody murder to defend their "lack of sight" in regards to racism. And one would be damned to pry their "lack of seeing racism" from their cold, gray hands.

[Toasterlad]

78. Not As Sad As the People Crying "Racism" Who Aren't Even the Slightest Bit Familiar With the Song

Here's a tip for all you knee-jerkers: context matters.

[political_Dem]

79. "Crying Racism" is an accusation from a racist who won't come to grips with his animus.

When racists are in a corner against those who call out racism, they always say that the person who points out such discriminatory wrongdoing is "crying racism". Rush says it. Beck says it.

It is always something that some white people say when they can't come to grips with their bigotry. It is very sad that bigots use that phrase instead of listening and taking note about the racism and learning from such events.


Thus, it is more sad for you than it is ever for me.

[Toasterlad]

80. Yeah, You're Right. Everyone Who Disagrees With You Is Racist.

What a remarkably simple approach to life. No wonder everyone gets along so well!

At least you didn't pretend you've ever heard of the song or have the slightest idea of what it means. No, you stuck to the tried and true method of yelling "RACIST!" Such a time-honored tradition of arguing when you have no actual facts on your side.

But thanks for lecturing ME on the importance of listening and taking note. You might want to give that a try next time you get into a debate like this, instead of swinging blindly with no understanding of the issue. You know, just for the novelty.

[political_Dem]

81. I'll remember that the next time, "BIGOT" gets shouted out. Thank you.

[Toasterlad]

85. You Do That. I'll Be Happy To Instruct You As To Whether It Is Or Isn't Appropriate.

Since you're apparently not capable of determining that for yourself.

[political_Dem]

92. That would be the most boring and self-centered lesson I'd ever get.

Thanks, but no thanks. I try to avoid narcissists.

[Toasterlad]

94. Suit Yourself. Some People Prefer To Remain Ignorant.

Bummer for the rest of us, but hey; everyone has the right not to know shit.

[political_Dem]

96. Fine. Au Revoir. I've got other topics to deal with.

[Toasterlad]

99. Really? Did Someone Try to Teach Huckleberry Finn In a School Somewhere?

Yeah, you should jump right on that. Can't have people exposing students to racist shit like that.

[Raineyb]

83. Not everyone. But you? Hell yeah. n/t

[Toasterlad]

86. Yeah, You Know Me So Well.

About as well as you know the song Old Man River. Or what "racist" means.

[Raineyb]

87. I don't need to know you well at all. But I damn sure know an asshole

when I see one which would be the definition of someone who thinks the appropriate response to a student who is offended by a song that uses derogatory language toward people like her is to "suck it up."

That, in case you're having difficulty, would include you.

[Toasterlad]

90. I Never Once Told the Student To Suck It Up.

But now that you mention it, I would suggest to her that if she's planning on a career in music, she should make an effort to actually READ THE SONGS she's going to be asked to perform before she flies off the handle. Otherwise, she should consider a career for the easily offended: like Annoying Knee-Jerk Internet Whiner Who Doesn't Understand What Racism Is. Although I understand that the pay is very low.

And yes, I am an asshole, thanks for noticing. And still a MUCH more pleasant (and certainly brighter) person than you.

[Raineyb]

91. Brighter? Hardly but then I don't feel the need to prove my intelligence to

assholes who declare themselves to be intelligent as though having one's head up one's ass was a sign of a working brain capable of intelligent thought.

And I really couldn't care less whether or not you think I'm pleasant or not. I don't live to make you and people like you comfortable. If you don't like it you can kiss my ass.

And as I don't waste my time on racist morons nor do I find the rantings of those who talk shit because their heads are perpetually stuck in their rectums to be remotely amusing, I shan't bother replying to you again.

[Toasterlad]

95. You Have an Extremely Unhealthy Obsession With Heads Up Asses

That's a very dangerous fetish, and I would encourage you to confine your yearnings to the fantasy arena only. And I'm flattered by your interest, but no: I'm not into that.

And don't worry, doll: you don't need to prove your intelligence to anyone. Your posts have said all that need be said.

[Raineyb]

88. They just don't want to hear what people of color have to say if what they say dares to

make points they don't want to hear.

Especially when it comes to race.

[political_Dem]

93. We've got a live specimen in this thread. And it is a sight to behold.

[Raineyb]

97. Yes I've seen it. I've relegated it to ignore. I really can't be bothered at this point.

I'm too old for this shit.

[political_Dem]

98. I am too. Life is too short to be dealing with the assholes of the world.

Take care. :hug:

[Toasterlad]

100. What An Awesome Lovefest.

It's nice to see people come together and share their mutual desire to remain ignorant.

:grouphug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. Cultural mores change. If people are offended by it, pick a different song.

Punish the teacher? Unless he selected the song with the intent to offend, no.