Field trip for black students sparks controversy

[walnutpie]

An Ann Arbor elementary school principal used a letter home to parents tonight to defend a field trip for black students as part of his school’s efforts to close the achievement gap between white and black students.

Dicken Elementary School Principal Mike Madison wrote the letter to parents following several days of controversy at the school after a field trip last week in which black students got to hear a rocket scientist.

A handful of parents have complained to district administrators about the trip, the group and Madison. More than a half-dozen parents contacted AnnArbor.com to raise the complaints, but none would agree to talk on the record, citing concerns of reprisals to their children by Madison.

Link to story

[seabeyond]

1. well, so what. good for them. and having white children in mostly all white school of privilege

an even bigger, good for them. and having listened to a parent this weekend of a biracial child who has been sad for last couple weeks over the prejudices in the school and bigger good for them.

when my kids would begin to complain about the unfairness and reverse discrimination by this school, i would tell them, suck it up, you of privilege and good for the school.

[Nye Bevan]

4. So every white kid is privileged?

You're OK with sending black kids from rich families on the field trip while poor white kids miss out? And how would you deal with mixed rate kids? The "one drop of blood" approach, or would you inquire about their ancestry prior to the field trip? And how about albino blacks? Trip or no trip?

[seabeyond]

6. in being white, damn straight. does that mean every white person is rich.... not even

that is not the "privilege" that i am talking about.

just as there is male privilege

just as there is female privilege.

or christian privilege in this country

or american privilege

there are certain inherent advantages to any of these groups

[NoNothing]

10. Your position is morally indefensible however

Once you give up on the ethical position that nobody should be treated differently because of their skin color, then on what moral principle do you condemn somebody for doing so in a way you don't like?

A lot of people sacrificed a lot 50 years ago to win that point of principle. I am skeptical it should be abandoned so cavalierly.

[seabeyond]

13. where do you people get the idea that nobody is being treated differently.

women, gays, blacks, MEXICANS in az, ARE being treated differently. reality. this is the REALITY. and what if, we need to do some things to help these groups. god forbid, help them in areas WE have caused damage. how dare we address the issue.

what would be the difference of a group of black kids seeing this scientist as a group of blacks as opposed to a group as a whole. it would not be able to be repesented in the same manner. the feel wouldnt be the same. the impact wouldnt be the same. the bonding wouldnt be the same.

what would happen if there was an opportunity for a high up female like clinton wanted to address only the girls in a school to address those issues of gender in the REAL world.

how does that hurt any other group not able to participate?

i dont get why parents would make this more or less than what it is. i dont get why we wouldnt want to lift up a group of people that have been culturally/socially shit on. it is totally against my thinking to lessen, instead of raise.

[Nye Bevan]

17. So your solution to solving the problem of discrimination

is to divide the students of a school into separate racial groups and run different field trips for each group? Because if more than one race go on the same field trip "the bonding wouldn't be the same"?

So how about making the black kids and white kids sit at separate lunch tables? Because when you allow them to sit at the same table, the "bonding" is just "not the same".

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LaydeeBug]

33. I think excluding ANY group of people on the base of race is stupider. nt

[William Z. Foster]

64. so clever

You may think it clever or amusing to turn the rhetoric and concepts of the Civil Rights movement around backwards - in the name of "equality!!" - and use them against people of color.

It is neither.

[NoNothing]

21. Let's assume women, gays, blacks are treated differently

Is that *wrong?*

If so, *why?* I say it's wrong because treating people differently because of sex or skin color is immoral. It is wrong, *period*.

You on the other hand are not willing to say that. You are only willing to say it's wrong, sometimes. Therefore, you need to come up with some moral rationale by why it is wrong sometimes, but not wrong other times. What is that rationale?

what does that hurt any other group not able to participate?

Anytime somebody is excluded from something beneficial *just because of their race* then they are hurt. It hurts the *individual.*

i dont get why parents would make this more or less than what it is.

Because there is a larger principle at stake here. It's the same reason why "separate but equal" was challenged even in cases where there really was equality.

[seabeyond]

23. do you treat your children perfectly equally? no good parent would because they both require and

need different things.

what a black group of children need is different than what a class as a whole may need. we know it will not have the same impact. we know it will not have the same value. we know it is not their lesson to learn

[Nye Bevan]

28. Isn't what a white group of children need different than what a class as a whole may need?

So why did you nix the Caucasian field trip?

[seabeyond]

31. no. nt

[NoNothing]

30. Then we should repeal integration

And simply abandon any pretense that blacks and whites are the same in the eyes of the law.

Equal, but separate.

[seabeyond]

32. no. nt

[NoNothing]

34. Why?

The premise of integration is that there is no difference between educating black children and white children in the eyes of the law.

You say that is not true.

So why should we maintain a law that is, according to you, incorrect?

[seabeyond]

35. because it is stupid. nt

[NoNothing]

39. Please explain

[seabeyond]

47. there is plenty of explanation in what i have posted so far. if you do not understand, or get it,

whether you agree with me or not, then you are purposely being obtuse and would be a waste of time me reiterating things already posted. again, whether you agree or not is not the issue. it is purposely being closed minded, ignoring what i am saying, in order to continue an argument, that doesnt do it for me.

[Dorian Gray]

110. I don't quite get

your explanations.....

I do think that this is wrong. By separating the black children and allowing them to go on a field trip while the white children are not (and what happens to any Asian, Hispanic or any other race???), you are bound to establish resentments. And you are treating the two groups as though they are unequal.

That is the problem with a situation like this.

[seabeyond]

111. i dont know, i put it out at the dinner table last night. it wasnt a tough concept for my 12 and 15

yr olds to understand why a trip of just all blacks to listen to the man would be more effective for the black kids than if it was a group as a whole. at first glance my 12 yr old thought it unfair. then i asked 15 yr old and he explained why it would be more effective. my husband further explained why and by then it got back to 12 yr old and he agreed, understood.

wasnt a foreign concept to any of us.

we didnt see it as a punishment for white kids. we didnt see it as anything but an opportunity that might help these children. and any opportunity, we are going to embrace.

[Dorian Gray]

127. Well, the discussion is good

though I still think that this whole thing is bound to create resentments.

I understand your arguments about inequalities in society and them needing to be made up for.

I, however, wonder if dividing classes up like this perpetuates those inequalities.

There was also discussion about females being dropped from the trip when there were too many who were going. I am not sure what the context behind that is, but it is disturbing to me. Perhaps there is a good reason, though.

[seabeyond]

128. expectations. these are way low, too low expectations of our children.

i think this is what bothers me so often. for a parent to raise a child in a manner that regardless of what is coming their way, an ability by given tools in life to handle a situation in an healthy and positive manner.

expectation of the children, children with an engrained privilege that already has the scales at an imbalance, an imbalance that the ones of privilege dont see or acknowledge, but an imbalance that you can darn well bet the black youth not only recognize and see but experience the injustices regularly.

the expectation that our children are so incapable of being able to internalize the need of offering advantages to our black youth sells these white children short in my view and is an equally terrible injustice to our white youth. for me it is an adult fail. i can see the repercussions on so many different scales. for example the poor white sutdent, the female student, subgroups that are at a disadvantage in the white world. seeing that injustices are recognize can give hope that their own will be recognized. another lesson learned.

tell me what benefits our youth

for the child to be allowed to see this as being unfair. that they are being picked on, not allowed to go. seeing their world only in all things must appear balanced on the surface regardless of the reality. having adults reinforce for them their own inability for compassion. adults reinforcing for them that they are incapable of being a better person.

or the child whose parents

take them further in this situation and shows them their own privilege. shows them the already implemented imbalances. show them that these black youths may gain something way beyond what they would get with the class as a whole, ergo it is worth us being "gracious" enough to allow in good spirit. the child that has the ability to rise above, and in the process wants his fellow students to rise above too, along with them

an higher expectation of our children and their capability.

what child do you think is going to be healthier and capable as they progress in life

this event i think, and the posters on this thread, i believe, sell our children so short. miss an opportunity to be a better person. miss a lesson that is so valuable to our children today

actually think beyond self, to outside of their own personal world.

this thread really has been an excellent experience for my kids. and me. not only talking wed night at table, but bringing it to a discussion yesterday. and then oldest son and i took it further this morning, listening to npr interview that is connected.

for me, that is parenting.

[William Z. Foster]

77. false

The premise of integration was to give Black children, otherwise systematically and brutally denied, an equal chance, or closer to an equal chance.

It was not to "make everyone equal" and it was most certainly not to give whites yet another excuse for attacking people of color and their aspirations under some cynical and phony ploy supposedly about "equality."

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. No. The premise of integration is to improve education for black kids.

[NoNothing]

112. Wrong!

Have you ever read Brown v. Board of Education? The Court found that the separate schools were in all substantive ways - buildings, staff, curriculum - equal.

The specific point of the case was that "separate educational facilities are inherently unequal."

[miscsoc]

104. that's true up to a point

but it doesn't take much thought to see why taking "black" kids (fuck knows how they dealt with mixed race kids) off on a field trip and leaving everyone else at school might not actually advance those black kids interests in a multicultural society.

[William Z. Foster]

62. that is not what the battle was about

The Civil Rights battle was not about "nobody should be treated differently because of their skin color." Rather it was in response to whites mistreating people of color. If it were not for that, there would be no concept of racism, we would not be having any discussions about it, and there would have been no Civil Rights movement. It is not "all equal" and it does not "go both ways."

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

People who wish to talk about equality, while denying the existing inequality, are defending inequality.

[mzteris]

116. read this:

http://www.case.edu/president/aaction/UnpackingTheKnapsack.pdf

If seven pages is too much for you, then read this one pager: http://www.fpg.unc.edu/~scpp/pdfs/whiteprivilegechecklist.pdf


It's easy to take the position you have when you're part of the dominant culture...

[Ter]

71. So if it was a mostly all-black school

You would support a trip for white students only?

[seabeyond]

73. no. nt

[Ter]

76. So why the double standard?

I support neither. If you supported both an all-black and an all-white group, at least you would be consistent.

[seabeyond]

79. there is such a thing as white privilege. there is not black privilege.

white privilege is ingrained in our society. it is all over the place outwardly and hidden. we receive it automatically simply because we are white. it is not unknown. it is clear, especially to those that are not privilege to receive. because of the ingrained white privilege there may be times, when whites may have to own it, and step back, and allow blacks to have something of their own, or females something of their own, that does not include the group as a whole. because if the whole group is there, honesty, connection, lessons, opportunities will be missed.

in this instance, for a black successful, accomplished man to talk to a group of black kids openly and honestly would not have been the same if the whites were a part of the group.

opportunity lost.

the scale is already imbalanced. this would be tilting it a tad more to balance.

or

we can continue with our white privilege and pretend it doesn't exist.

[LeftyMom]

85. What?

I don't mean to be the grammar police, but can you please make at least a small effort to follow elementary grammar rules and ensure that your posts are readable?

[miscsoc]

103. if you would actually do that you are insane.

white privilege isn't some sort of original sin that every white person benefits from equally. it exists, but the phrase is a crude way of describing a lot of complex social facts.

[Nye Bevan]

2. Wow. The principal excluded the white kids from the field trip.

The black kids got to go on the trip while the white kids had to stay back at the school. Absolutely disgusting. I thought we had moved away from discriminating between kids based on their skin color.

I wonder if there were any mixed race kids in the class and what the principal would have done with them-- sent them for only half of the trip, or would he have used the "one drop of blood" approach?

[seabeyond]

3. "moved away from discriminating ". wow. i cant believe that you really thought we had

what world are you living in?

[Nye Bevan]

5. My daughter in elementary school has both black and white close friends

I'm glad that the principal of her school does not use skin color to decide who gets to go on field trips.

[seabeyond]

7. my sons have always hung out in the smallest group of minorities too.

and i see and hear what these kids experience on a regular basis in a school of 98/99% white. good for them that there was something special, just for the black kids, that will help them honor, appreciate, value and connect in their group of same. and that the black scientist can talk specifically to this group instead of a class as a whole.

[Nye Bevan]

8. Should the mixed race kids get to go on the trip?

You never answered that one.

[seabeyond]

9. i assumed you were asking the op.

i am sure the principal worked it out and yes i think they are part of the group that goes. i know in my sons class of THREE blacks, ONE of the kids biracial, he could really use a boost to special. and i would be all for it. i would be the parent down at the school discussing with the kids why we can be bigger than this, and embrace the opportunity for these students and cheer them on. why we can feel good about it. understanding. compassion. grace.

or

you can be a parent bitching about how unfair it all is.

what child do you think would get the most from the experience.

[Nye Bevan]

11. What about Native American kids? Asian kids?

Do they get to go on the trip with the black kids, or do you organize separate field trips for every racial group during the course of the school year?

And I guess the white kids also get their own field trip. But is it just one field trip for all of the Caucasians or do you break it down between Irish ancestry, Jewish kids, etc.? And do the black/white biracial kids get to go on the Caucasian field trip as well as the Black field trip?

[seabeyond]

15. i would be thrilled with one for our native american. yes. and all things

do not have to balance out to a fairness... let this be a teachable moment for kids. that the scale will not be that pretty little balance because as they see their side tilted to one side of unfairness, they are ignoring the many unfairnesses that the blacks have to experience.

i have never raised my kids to have the expectation that one gets so should the other. that isn't a reality. that isn't how life and the world works.

maybe we ought to teach our privileged that reality.

[Nye Bevan]

19. So no Caucasian field trip?

How about in minority-white schools?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nikki Stone1]

14. Excellent question: What did they do with the biracial kids?

Hmmm

[marshall]

126. Bringing back the one drop rule

It's the only way the principal could resolve the matter.

[exboyfil]

12. Our Land Grant University has

Women in Science events that invite only middle and high school girls to campus. I took my two daughters to this event (I was only one of about three men at the event). If our school district did not have budget issues, they would have had a field trip which would have been subsidized, in part, by the school district (bus and bus driver mostly).

While I appreciated the opportunity for my girls to experience this event, I have to wonder if a similar event should not be also run for boys. At my daughter's school, the girls in general do better academically than the boys (of the eight 4.0's last semester in my daughters class - seven were girls).

[alphafemale]

16. Good way to point out differences and trigger resentments.

way to go

[The Straight Story]

22. So we fight treating people differently by treating them differently?

Makes my head spin.

[cyndensco]

24. Who is playing the race card here?

The article clearly states the Lunch Bunch attended the field trip. White kids were not excluded - they were not included because they were not a part of the Lunch Bunch. Schools often sponsor field trips for certain groups of students: clubs, bands, student governments, etc. Hopefully, most do not have to return to their classes booed by their classmates.

The real issue here, IMO, is the need for the Lunch Bunch. Created in response to achievement tests, the group hopefully one day will not be necessary. Until then though, I am happy the Ann Arbor school has established the group and hope the kids were inspired meeting the black rocket scientist.

[Nye Bevan]

26. So you would have no problem with a "White Lunch Bunch"

going on a Caucasians-only field trip?

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. The real problem here is with NCLB and its emphasis on subgroups.

Minority kids are a subgroup in every school. And if they don't meet a certain criteria on the state tests, the entire school is given a failing grade. If the white kids fail, it doesn't matter as much because they aren't a subgroup.

So blame a stupid law instead of a school trying to raise test scores.

[Nye Bevan]

42. I blame the principal.

I'm sure many schools face these same issues. But this is the first time I have heard of a school principal attempting to address the problem by banning students of a certain skin color from going on a field trip.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. That's not what happened

No one was banned. The field trip was for a particular group. That happens all the time. If kindergarteners go on a field trip, you can't claim the 3rd graders were banned from going.

[Synicus Maximus]

55. I know that in the three schools nearest me whites are they are the sub group.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. There is no such thing as a Whites subgroup

According to NCLB, subgroups are:

minorities
free and reduced lunch
English language learners
special education

[EFerrari]

82. By the looks of this thread, we need one more category for remediation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

88. LOL!

You're bad. :spank:

[cyndensco]

41. You missed the point.

It is not a Black Lunch Bunch. It is a group of kids who did not perform well on an achievement test.

In answer to your question, if the group was specifically for white kids, excluding my black ones, I would definitely pay the teacher, principal, and superintendent visits.

But as I see it, that's apples and oranges......

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. Yes it is all Black kids

Read the article again.

[Nikki Stone1]

29. Nice try at talking around the issue. What was done was against Federal law.

Period.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. No it wasn't

Federal law places the African American kids in a subgroup and makes their test scores more important than other groups of kids in a school. So schools are going to do whatever they think works to raise African American kids' test scores.

Other subgroups are Free and Reduced Lunch (poor kids), English Language Learners and Special Ed kids. The entire school is judged by the subgroup scores on the tests. So expect lots more programs like this Lunch Bunch unless we get this stupid law changed.

[cyndensco]

44. I doubt any federal court would rule against the school.

Period.

[Nikki Stone1]

25. If this comment is correct, the principle is a sexist as well:

"When there wasn't enough room for all the black children to attend, he "uninvited" some of the black girls. "

http://www.annarbor.com/news/black-student-only-field-trip-sparks-controversy-at-ann-arbor-elementary-school/#comments

[Blue-Jay]

27. Did the bi-racial kids get dropped off halfway there?

[Bluebear]

37. No, they got to hear the scientist but the bus left them there!

[Blue-Jay]

38. Ha!

[HALO141]

43. A moron, even a well intentioned one, is a moron.

And a bigot is a bigot, regardless of his/her ethnic heritage. Mike Madison is both.

[Uzybone]

45. What a stupid decision by all involved

teachers and administration are dumb for this one.

Well intended, but still discriminatory.

[NaturalHigh]

48. " I’m sorry if any kids were upset..."

Typical non-apology by the principal. Anyone who doesn't think this was discrimination is wrong. I see the typical "it's okay because it was only done to the white kids" types upthread, though.

[seabeyond]

49. since i am the only one with the "typical".... what makes me a "typical". have i said in the past

it is ok because it is only done to the white kids? can you please point out where in the 7 yrs i have posted on du, i have stated it is ok because it is only done to the white kids.

what makes it typical?

[NaturalHigh]

50. Maybe I should rephrase...

Yours are typical of "it's okay because it only happens to white kids" posts. As for the phrasing, I'll leave it up to anyone who wants to read your posts to decide your intentions. I personally think your intentions are very clear.

[seabeyond]

51. then you miss interpret. the typical should be.... our black children are hurting

and if there is something we can do to help them than we should be able to without being overly sensitive and cry an injustice. if the whole class went and talked to this scientist, it would not have had the same flavor, the same results. the man would not have been able to talk in the language that connects the children, and i am not talking about slang. it would have been a wasted opportunity.

i prefer to teach my children that there are inequities in life and it is our responsibility and ownership to admit, not deny. to face and not pretend they are not there. because only then, can we heal.

tell me.

is that what you got out of my posts above

because if not

you got it wrong.

[NaturalHigh]

52. No, that is not what I got out of your posts...

and I'm actually pretty sure I didn't get it wrong. You say "overly sensitive", and I think that speaks volumes of what you are actually saying. You're welcome to your opinion, of course, but I strongly disagree.

[seabeyond]

53. ah, so i dont know what i am talking about. but you know what i am talking about

i always appreciate that type of thinking.

[NaturalHigh]

54. No, I'm pretty sure you know what you're talking about.

I think you just won't say it outright.

[seabeyond]

56. well then, help me out. clue me in. i am not shy. what do i know i am talking about that

i am not willing to say out right. no accusing and talking in code here. what?

[NaturalHigh]

58. See post #49.

Loop...

[seabeyond]

60. so, really you are saying doesnt matter my reasoning, you will put whatever spin you want

regardless, and i am supposed to stupidly say, sure.....

nah

[NaturalHigh]

61. No, I am saying that I don't believe your motivation is what you say it is.

[seabeyond]

65. so i am a liar? ok. i put this forth at the dinner table tonight.

husband, two sons 12 and 15. before i finished the story husband interrupted and stated that to have a group of black kids listen to this man and see the accomplishment.... i hushed him up to let kids express without help.

my 12 yr old thought unfair.

my 15 yr old (we took turns on opinion) said he could see why they would want to have only the black kids on the field trip. the advantages, which i have laid out

my husband then continued with his expression that in a group with whites, the black man would not be able to share the challenges and experience he faced. would not be able to commiserate and validate the hardships these kids endure. would not be able to truly express what he was able to with only black kids, that know, that experience, will be able to hear

the field trip and opportunity would have been wasted.

my 12 yr old then said, ok, ... i see what you are saying. i agree. but to be fair, then the white kids should get a .....

and my oldest son and i said, no. not about fairness. not about balancing. about raising up, healing. if there is a counter, then it is harmful, not helpful

so no

i dont think you know what you are talking about. i think i know better what i am thinking, than what you think i am thinking. regardless of my words, regardless of my bluntness, not to mention any reason to waste time on whatever kind of motive you think i have

you are wrong.

it was not hard in our hosue to understand. it was not hard in our house to understand white privilege and the harm it does to our minorities. it is not hard for my husband and two boys to understand male privilege. we have talked about these things enough

and it is not hard, for us to give a bet.... in order to help heal another.

[NaturalHigh]

68. I see no relevance in your dinner conversation to your motives...

and no, I don't believe it is about "healing" either.

[seabeyond]

69. oh lordy. you dont see the motive you want.... so you give it to me without anything....

lordy, i dont think i have come up against a poster like you yet on du.

whatever then

i know i have expressed like a zillion times more where i am coming from only to get generic, inaccurate accusations from you.

[NaturalHigh]

70. The motive I want?

Now I don't even know what you're talking about. I see in your posts the motive that I believe you have, and I'll leave it at that.

[seabeyond]

74. rollin eyes. nt

[mzteris]

119. don't you love how other people know you

better than you know you?

How they want to put their bs preconception/prejudices onto you? How they misinterpret (deliberately?) every single syllable you utter in order to try and turn you into something completely the opposite of what you are?

It's maddening.

It takes a whole lot of hard work, reflection, study, effort for the dominant group to wrap their head around what it means to those who are NOT "white in america". Anyone making these comments on here (not yours) truly does NOT understand "white privilege" and how to combat it.

[seabeyond]

120. i dont get this one. this is truly a thread on du that has thrown me

to me, it is so simple and clear. i am so much into balance. lol. and to me, this action with the principal does not seem imbalanced at all.

it becomes a little more skewed with rejecting black females. a whole other direction in the issue. i can hear what he says, and why, and i would be able to explain to my black girls why he made the decision, .... but as a whole, with this situation, i would like to see more effort of this sort with certain groups, for integration into our society, that seems to me becoming more and more and more seperate.

i just see this as a white person as the understanding we should have, in order to HELP our society as a whole. all of us, as one.

what happens to a white child when faced with this issue. having black go to a specific person, to help build them up and a white child say, i can get that. and then ask the black child when he comes back, what lessons were there, how cool was it, good for yawl.

that makes sense to me.

[Quantess]

63. That's not fair.

Instead, all the students should have gone, and the black students could get the front row, or be first in line. But not excluding students altogether because of race.

[seabeyond]

67. would the black man that has faced discrimination, yet continued to succeed,

challenge, accomplish... would he have been able to express his experience in a heart felt way that would have moved the black students to achievement, with white students in the group?

please.

just a little time thinking about it a bet, instead of a automatic, fair, not fair feeling.

[Dappleganger]

86. Why could he not?

It's a sincere question. Why should white kids be excluded from the plight of the black man? It's an opportunity to listen and learn and get a view of what it's like to be a minority.

Honestly, why is this not a good thing for all children?

[seabeyond]

89. it is a good thing. it would be a good lesson and experience for all kids.

just as it would be a good experience for the whole class to listen to a successful woman and her accomplishments.

i asked son, if hillary clinton gathered the class together and talked about the female experience, the discrimination, the battles she had to fight, what would happen.

he said the boys would laugh....

that immediately came to his mind, all on his own, with very little effort in thought. not only would the boys laugh and snicker, but the girls would not listen nearly as hard, they would not be able to make the connection with a fellow female, they would be conscious of the "other" sitting beside them. in their mind the battle of them against us would be there. the battle of how they are perceived. so many things would be getting in the way

hillary would have to tone down the experience so she could connect to whole audience. she would have to mellow speech, soften criticism, liten it up so the males can be, at the least, tolerant

this class experience was not for the whole. it is for the blacks experience. they could not experience it as a group. they needed to experience as one, as the same, as a knowledge, that their experience is different than the whites experience. the man could not have openly, in their language talked about the hardship he had, in the same way, if their were whites in audience.

it would not, could not have been the same.

we who sit in privilege may say balance, equal, but as long as we have the privilege, there is not balance, there is not equal. what we can do is be honest about our privilege. own our privilege. and step back and allow a group to have their own, so there can be a little more equal, balance.

this is probably the only, or very few thread, where i am literally the only one that sees one way and EVERYONE else sees it in another manner. i dont know that i have experienced this on du yet. it is so clear to me. it is so right to me. it is so ok with me.

and so wrong for everyone else.

it has been interesting to see so clearly the complete opposite of everyone else.

to have the whole class listen to the man would be a good experience on accomplishment regardless of obsticles. but to have a class of black children listen to this man is to hear so much more in the story.

[Quantess]

94. I see your point. I guess it wasn't outrageous.

I only skimmed the article. Today I've been breaking my usual policy of reading the whole article before posting my opinion, so never mind.

[proteus_lives]

66. That's a crock of shit.

All the kids should get to go or none of them should.

[Liberal_in_LA]

72. Interesting.. in the comments people are saying some black girls got left behind

when room ran out on the bus. But all black boys were taken. Gender preference also.

[proteus_lives]

75. An even bigger crock of shit.

[Fleshdancer]

78. "renowned African American rocket scientist in a very successful position"

From the article...

“In hindsight, this field trip could have been approached and arranged in a better way," Madison wrote. "But as I reflect upon the look of excitement, enthusiasm and energy that I saw in these children’s eyes as they stood in the presence of a renowned African American rocket scientist in a very successful position, it gave the kids an opportunity to see this type of achievement is possible for even them.

I bet this was an incredible trip for the students who went...so much so that I wish all the students were given this opportunity. Perhaps inviting this scientist to speak to the entire student body would help?

If the students who did get the chance to meet this scientist were truly excited to meet him and learn more about him because of his race and success, then it's time to introduce the large number of African American historical figures/scientists/leaders, etc into the normal curriculum. Students of all races would benefit. (same goes with great women btw)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

80. Reprisals against students and/or parents is a very real thing

BTDT, got several official apologies to prevent legal actions.

[Skip Intro]

81. Racist bullshit. That principle should resign. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. So should Obama

It's his education policy.

[Nye Bevan]

91. School field trips segregated by race?

I can't say I remember that one from Obama's platform.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. For the umpteenth time

NCLB is responsible. It's Obama's law now.

[Number23]

92. Oh, sweet Jesus... here we go...

[political_Dem]

96. +10000

[Dappleganger]

84. I wish they all had been allowed to go on the field trip.

It's been my experience that the more discussion which takes place between all races, the better. As a parent I want my children exposed to successful people of all kinds so they will have good influences, and to learn to listen well to questions about the challenges which being a minority brings into the business world, education and life.

[Clintonista2]

87. Racism. Fire the principle. eom

[proteus_lives]

90. +1

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. For what?

Doing all he can to raise test scores? He'll be getting a raise if those scores go up. No one's going to fire him.

[Clintonista2]

102. Segregating field trips for starters

[proud2BlibKansan]

105. Sigh. It's not only not illegal,

there's probably Race to the Top money available to pay for these field trips. Or some other federal pot of money.

[Clintonista2]

109. I never said it was illegal

And I don't see how the way in which it was paid for has anything to do with this discussion at all.

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. If it's not illegal then on what grounds do you fire the principal??

[Clintonista2]

117. Uhhh just an FYI, you don't have to commit a crime to be fired

The terrible judgment shown by this principle is cause enough.

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. Once again. No Child Left Behind mandates schools improve the achievement

of African American students.

So if this principal can justify this field trip as part of his school's strategy to raise these students' test scores, (and he can) then there is no justification for firing him. He would essentially be fired for complying with a federal mandate.

[mzteris]

118. yeah - it's all about TEST SCORES -

'cause no one, you know, actually really gives a DAMN about any kids!!!


Except the "teachers" on here, of course. :eyes:


edit - damn keyboard with it's sticky keys! (alright, which of you kids were eating over the keyboard again?!?!)

[Number23]

93. It's times like this that I am reminded why there are still black colleges, fraternities

civil rights organizations, associations etc. There is a need for minority groups to be able to speak freely within the relative comfort and safety of the group without having to worry about being "misinterpreted" by the majority culture.

I'm not sure how I feel about this story but I can understand what the principal was trying to do. I agree with him that this probably could have been handled better, but I will always be on the side of introducing black children to any and everything that allows them to see more of the world than their day to day experiences.

[seabeyond]

95. on the side of introducing black children to any and everything that allows them to see ....

me too

[political_Dem]

97. I agree. The problem here is that people don't understand what white privilege means

and how it affects society. If they took time to research and understand it, this story would be viewed differently--especially when it comes to how experiences are shaped by access and opportunity.

[proud2BlibKansan]

101. +1

[bluestateguy]

107. Which is all fine and good, those are private institutions

This is a public school, an agent of the state, doing so with taxpayer dollars.

And BTW, even historically black colleges allow white students to enroll; here we are talking about an actual rule mandating blacks only.

[Number23]

124. Your point does not negate mine

This is a public school, an agent of the state, doing so with taxpayer dollars.

Many HBCU's (historically black colleges and universities) are public schools as well. And whether or not "white students are allowed to enroll" does not in any way minimize the need for minorities to be able to speak openly and freely about the specific challenges of minority life in American culture.

I would bet that any white student that did enroll at a predominantly minority school would probably be much more understanding of the need to have these types conversations anyway. Just a guess...

[Nye Bevan]

114. Right. Because white schoolkids get to talk to rocket scientists every day.

:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. Actually because the white kids are more likely to grow up to be rocket scientists

It's really not that hard to understand.

[Number23]

125. You must have broken a sweat working so hard to miss the point of my post.

[Nye Bevan]

129. You said

"I will always be on the side of introducing black children to any and everything that allows them to see more of the world than their day to day experiences".

Well *I* will always be on the side of introducing *children of all races* to "any and everything that allows them to see more of the world than their day to day experiences".

My 9 year old daughter has friends of all races at school. I wouldn't want to have to explain to her why only some of her friends got to visit the rocket scientist, while some had to remain at the school.

[bluestateguy]

106. Not a good idea.

Sets a risky precedent.

Next thing you know it's special field trips for Hispanic kids, or girls only, or poor kids only, or even white kids only.

And in a public school, this is of questionable legality.

[Skidmore]

108. This whole thread is just so disheartening.

Reading both sides of this argument, as presented in the responses, it seems to me that there is just a lot of whacking around in the weeds going on and no real desire to engage in more than political debate and one upmanship. The bottom line is that, yes, we do need to learn how to get along and to respect one another and that constructing legal mechanisms to facilitate that can only go so far toward that goal. Bottom line is still that each individual must learn how to tap that within which sees the other as a potential friend and ally and not as an enemy encroaching on established territory. When we (regardless of the color of our skin) start living the intent of the law rather than parsing the language is when we will have arrived at meaningful solutions.

[proud2BlibKansan]

115. +1,000,000

[Name removed]

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