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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 01:33 PM
Original message
Howard Zinn's the Bomb
The late Howard Zinn's new book "The Bomb" is a brilliant little dissection of some of the central myths of our militarized society. Those who've read "A Terrible Mistake: The Murder of Frank Olson and the CIA's Secret Cold War Experiments," by H.P. Albarelli Jr. know that this is a year for publishing the stories of horrible things that the United States has done to French towns. In that case, Albarelli, describes the CIA administering LSD to an entire town, with deadly results. In "The Bomb," Zinn describes the U.S. military making its first use of napalm by dropping it all over another French town, burning anyone and anything it touched. Zinn was in one of the planes, taking part in this horrendous crime.

In mid-April 1945, the war in Europe was essentially over. Everyone knew it was ending. There was no military reason (if that's not an oxymoron) to attack the Germans stationed near Royan, France, much less to burn the French men, women, and children in the town to death. The British had already destroyed the town in January, similarly bombing it because of its vicinity to German troops, in what was widely called a tragic mistake. This tragic mistake was rationalized as an inevitable part of war, just as were the horrific firebombings that successfully reached German targets, just as was the later bombing of Royan with napalm. Zinn blames the Supreme Allied Command for seeking to add a "victory" in the final weeks of a war already won. He blames the local military commanders' ambitions. He blames the American Air Force's desire to test a new weapon. And he blames everyone involved -- which must include himself -- for "the most powerful motive of all: the habit of obedience, the universal teaching of all cultures, not to get out of line, not even to think about that which one has not been assigned to think about, the negative motive of not having either a reason or a will to intercede."

When Zinn returned from the war in Europe, he expected to be sent to the war in the Pacific, until he saw and rejoiced at seeing the news of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima, 65 years ago this August. Only years later did Zinn come to understand the inexcusable crime of the greatest proportions that was the dropping of nuclear bombs in Japan, actions similar in some ways to the final bombing of Royan. The war with Japan was already over, the Japanese seeking peace and willing to surrender. Japan asked only that it be permitted to keep its emperor, a request that was later granted. But, like napalm, the nuclear bombs were weapons that needed testing. The second bomb, dropped on Nagasaki, was a different sort of bomb that also needed testing. President Harry Truman wanted to demonstrate nuclear bombs to the world and especially to Russia. And he wanted to end the war with Japan before Russia became part of it. The horrific form of mass murder he employed was in no way justifiable.

Zinn also goes back to dismantle the mythical reasons the United States was in the war to begin with. The United States, England, and France were imperial powers supporting each other's international aggressions in places like the Philippines. They opposed the same from Germany and Japan, but not aggression itself. Most of America's tin and rubber came from the Southwest Pacific. The United States made clear for years its lack of concern for the Jews being attacked in Germany. It also demonstrated its lack of opposition to racism through its treatment of African Americans and Japanese Americans. Franklin D. Roosevelt described fascist bombing campaigns over civilian areas as "inhuman barbarity" but then did the same on a much larger scale to German cities, which was followed up by the destruction on an unprecedented scale of Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- actions that came after years of dehumanizing the Japanese. Zinn points out that "LIFE magazine showed a picture of a Japanese person burning to death and commented: 'This is the only way.'" Aware that the war would end without any more bombing, and aware that U.S. prisoners of war would be killed by the bomb dropped on Nagasaki, the U.S. military went ahead and dropped the bombs.

Americans allowed these things to be done in their name, just as the Germans and Japanese allowed horrible crimes to be committed in their names. Zinn points out, with his trademark clarity, how the use of the word "we" blends governments together with peoples and serves to equate our own people with our military, while we demonize the people of other lands because of actions by their governments. "The Bomb" suggest a better way to think about such matters and firmly establishes that
--what the U.S. military is doing now, today, parallels the crimes of the past and shares their dishonorable motivations;
--the bad wars have a lot in common with the so-called "good war," about which there was little if anything good;
--Howard Zinn did far more in his life for peace than for war, and more for peace than just about anybody else, certainly more than several Nobel Peace Prize winners.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks. His "People's History of the US" is my #1 recommendation in books!
I'll check it out!
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I just finished that, and I agree.
It should be required reading for EVERYONE.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. and FYI...there's a version for children:
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. There's a birthday coming up next month...
...and I think I just found the perfect gift. Thanks -- I didn't know about this book!

:hi:
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Self-delete
Edited on Mon Jul-19-10 02:33 PM by AngryOldDem
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. I wasn't that impressed with it.
Too much bias.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #18
32. To each his own.
As Zinn pointed out, he told a story that is often conveniently ignored in most history texts. Hence the title. And I think it puts all the current crises we face into perspective. As it was, as it shall ever be -- the elite will always play the poor and middle class off each other by giving them just enough to keep them docile and in their places.
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jtuck004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
57. Do you have any examples? Just curious. n,t,
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #57
64. The general negative theme.
Zinn basically committed the same sins of public school texts but in reverse.

And I fiercely disagreed with his section of the atomic bombs.

It's an agenda tract, not a straight history book.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #64
68. "Straight history"! HA HA HA!!!
My god, how naive can you get?

That just made me crack up and it tells tons about how unsophisticated your world-view is.

There are 12 year olds that know that history is written by the winners!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #68
72. How amusing you are.
Edited on Wed Jul-21-10 12:40 AM by proteus_lives
Nothing Zinn wrote was groundbreaking or unknown. I've been reading the same facts since I was 12 and started checking out my own history books. He had an agenda and followed it.

He did nothing special.

Keep going though, you calling someone being "unsophisticated" is like as amusing as one of my little nieces giving a lecture on driving.

Edit: BTW, I thought no one responded to me?

"Ruffles your hair"

You're cute, kiddo.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. LOL. I'm not the one that thinks there is a "straight" history.
You define "straight" as one that fits your world-view, boy.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #74
86. Lulz-worthy as always.
If you read outside of a narrow viewpoint, you'd understand what I'm saying.

Don't worry, you'll learn when you grow-up some.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. Well, when you learn history from reading Iron Man comics, things look simple.
After all, he has repulsor rays!

Hint: It's fictional!
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. I'm assuming you're mining the Silver Age Iron Man.
Where he was a more jingoistic champion of Capitalism against the Red Hordes personified by Black Widow, Crimson Dynamo, Titanium Man and Unicorn.

Try the series Storming Paradise by Wildstorm. It might enlighten you on what might have been and why the atomics were the right decision.

Don't try comic metaphors with a person who has been collecting for over twenty years. You just look foolish.
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jtuck004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #64
81. ok, and I didn't mean to set you up for criticism - .
Edited on Wed Jul-21-10 01:11 AM by jtuck004
but it is the Internet. I guess I should have known ;)

It's been awhile since I read him, though I do think he has done important work, and his book is on my shelf of favorites. Much of the historical info I got from his book was in fact absent from or severely minimized in the books I was taught from, so I was very interested when I first came across his work.

Though you may not agree, most of the history I have been "taught" is full of bias (the worst being that which is written
by those who don't acknowledge it or perhaps are truly unaware). That which I have found the most valuable are the original docs
and those texts I found on my own. I thought Howard was pretty upfront about the why of what he wrote. imho, of course ;)

thanks

On edit, I should add that my opinion is based on his previous work. This one is on my list though.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #81
87. I think you make a valid point.
Public school history is awful.

I love history and I've been reading beyond the required class list since I was a boy.

So "The People's History" wasn't exactly revolutionary to me. Plus I disagreed with his tone, direction and bias.

I read as much I can about history, no one is 100% correct.

At least Zinn got people reading, nothing wrong with that.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. +1
It should be required reading on the Left, because it sure shows what compromising with the Right gets you: Screwn.
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kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
106. kick for the afternoon thoughts
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. re current parallels: Many people don't know that there is a great deal of difference between a mili
Edited on Mon Jul-19-10 02:32 PM by patrice
tary career that has experienced combat, compared to one that has not, especially for officers. The difference may not be something that is objectively observable, but the internal, subjective differences are extremely important to that culture.

It's sad that there is another parallel in the civilian corporate world; that is the difference between administrators and management that has demonstrated its willing readiness to dismantle and ultimately terminate more-or-less deserving employees, compared to those who have not.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. First we got the bomb and that was good,
cause we're for peace and brotherhood.

Tom Lehrer said it best.
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jimlup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thanks for posting this!
I've been meaning to read the "People's History". Maybe this summer is my chance.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. It's an extremely quick read, and well worth it.
It puts a lot of today's issues into clear context.
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Dystopian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
10. KandR.
Thank you for posting this.


peace~
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klook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
11. Yes, Zinn still is "the bomb"
Oh, now I see you're talking about a book. :)

Thanks for posting this. I'm putting this on my "must find and read" list now.

Of course, it's sacrilege to think of the USA's role in WWII as anything but a holy crusade. But every war has innocent casualties, and war is always, on some level, a racket.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
12. "the Japanese seeking peace and willing to surrender"
That is simply not true. I love "A people's history" and like Zinn overall, and I am undecided if we should have dropped the bomb or not. But there were near zero peace overtures. There were vague inquires at best. When the emperor decided to make a peace overture after TWO bombs, the military attempted a coup. Those are simple facts.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
28. near zero?
Zinn documents what's in his book
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A Physicist Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
36. "The war with Japan was already over, the Japanese seeking peace and willing to surrender."
“Japan asked only that it be permitted to keep its emperor, a request that was later granted.”

What is the source of this information? The Wikipedia article “Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

Can be distilled into this timeline:

July 26-28: The Potsdam ultimatum issued -and ignored-

On July 26, Truman and other allied leaders issued the Potsdam Declaration outlining terms of surrender for Japan. It was presented as an ultimatum and stated that without a surrender, the Allies would attack Japan, resulting in "the inevitable and complete destruction of the Japanese armed forces and just as inevitably the utter devastation of the Japanese homeland". The atomic bomb was not mentioned in the communique.

On July 28, Japanese papers reported that the declaration had been rejected by the Japanese government.

That afternoon, Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki declared at a press conference that the Potsdam Declaration was no more than a rehash (yakinaoshi) of the Cairo Declaration and that the government intended to ignore it (mokusatsu lit. "kill by silence"). The statement was taken by both Japanese and foreign papers as a clear rejection of the declaration. Emperor Hirohito, who was waiting for a Soviet reply to noncommittal Japanese peace feelers, made no move to change the government position. On July 31, he made clear to his advisor Kōichi Kido that the Imperial Regalia of Japan had to be defended at all costs.

Aug 6: Hiroshima

Events of August 7–9: Truman announces the bombing of Hiroshima; gives Japan another chance to surrender.

“If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth. Behind this air attack will follow sea and land forces in such numbers and power as they have not yet seen and with the fighting skill of which they are already well aware.”

The Japanese government still did not react to the Potsdam Declaration. Emperor Hirohito, the government, and the war council were considering four conditions for surrender: the preservation of the kokutai (Imperial institution and national polity), assumption by the Imperial Headquarters of responsibility for disarmament and demobilization, no occupation of the Japanese Home Islands, Korea, or Formosa, and delegation of the punishment of war criminals to the Japanese government.

-These terms are perfectly reasonable, all Japan wants is no occupation and to continue to occupy lands it took by force earlier such as Korea and Formosa because they want the natural resources, strategic position, and they think the girls of Formosa are hot.

After Hiroshima it is only a matter of time before their physicists figure out it was an atomic bomb and if the United States occupies them it will make it very difficult to design and build atomic bombs of their own.-

Aug 9 Nagasaki local time 11:01AM

At 11:00, The Great Artiste, the support B-29 flown by Captain Frederick C. Bock, dropped instruments attached to three parachutes. These instruments also contained an unsigned letter to Professor Ryokichi Sagane, a nuclear physicist at the University of Tokyo who studied with three of the scientists responsible for the atomic bomb at the University of California, Berkeley, urging him to tell the public about the danger involved with these weapons of mass destruction. The messages were found by military authorities but not turned over to Sagane until a month later. In 1949 one of the authors of the letter, Luis Alvarez, met with Sagane and signed the document.

August 10-14

Until August 9, the war council had still insisted on its four conditions for surrender. On that day Hirohito ordered Kido to "quickly control the situation ... because the Soviet Union has declared war against us." He then held an Imperial conference during which he authorized minister Tōgō to notify the Allies that Japan would accept their terms on one condition, that the declaration "does not compromise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign ruler."

On August 10, the Japanese government presented a letter of protest for the atomic bombings to the government of the United States via the government of Switzerland. On August 12, the Emperor informed the imperial family of his decision to surrender. One of his uncles, Prince Asaka, then asked whether the war would be continued if the kokutai could not be preserved. Hirohito simply replied "of course." As the Allied terms seemed to leave intact the principle of the preservation of the Throne, Hirohito recorded on August 14 his capitulation announcement which was broadcast to the Japanese nation the next day despite a short rebellion by militarists opposed to the surrender.

In his declaration, Hirohito referred to the atomic bombings:

“Moreover, the enemy now possesses a new and terrible weapon with the power to destroy many innocent lives and do incalculable damage. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.
Such being the case, how are We to save the millions of Our subjects, or to atone Ourselves before the hallowed spirits of Our Imperial Ancestors? This is the reason why We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the Joint Declaration of the Powers.”
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cachukis Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. A response to wikipedia from the Institute for Historical Review
Re: Trohan Article
<snip>

A Secret Memorandum
It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.

In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)

This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:

Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
Surrender of designated war criminals.
Is this memorandum authentic? It was supposedly leaked to Trohan by Admiral William D. Leahy, presidential Chief of Staff. (See: M. Rothbard in A. Goddard, ed., Harry Elmer Barnes: Learned Crusader <1968>, pp. 327f.) Historian Harry Elmer Barnes has related (in "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958):

The authenticity of the Trohan article was never challenged by the White House or the State Department, and for very good reason. After General MacArthur returned from Korea in 1951, his neighbor in the Waldorf Towers, former President Herbert Hoover, took the Trohan article to General MacArthur and the latter confirmed its accuracy in every detail and without qualification.

<snip>

The article goes into great detail about the peace overtures and political rationalizations.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. The horrific form of mass murder... was in no way justifiable.
Never is. K&R
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Are you talking the millions Japan slaughtered in Asia?
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
56. Yes, quote from article...
not justified, Japanese were ready to talk peace...
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #56
65. No, they weren't.
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. It was wholly justifiable, and I don't like nuclear weapons.
Would you have been satisfied seeing another one hundred thousand American troops die in trying to defeat Japan? That was the conundrum that president Truman faced.
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southmost Donating Member (528 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. When i learned of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
on a PBS show of the anniversary of the nuclear bombings back in the 80's, my tween-age eyes were peeled opened forever and thus became a galvanized critic of the U.S. govt. as a military force, and later to learn that this was just the tip of the iceberg of american inhumanities committed in our names.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
46. Welcome to DU.
:hi:

I had the same experience after one-too-many "duck and cover" drills: I started researching WHY we had to do these drills, HOW we got to this point, and WHAT we could do differently.
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Dystopian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
15. kick....
peace~
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
16. Same old revisionist bullshit.
The bombs were best card in a bad hand.

I wonder how Zinn would have felt about a massive, bloody invasion of the Japanese Home Islands.

I will always defend the use of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese were offered terms of surrender. We just finished a war they started.

"the Japanese seeking peace and willing to surrender."

False.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Same old tired and discredited RW BS you post everywhere and every day on this board.
Don't you ever get a clue about the criminal mass murdering psychopaths you side with and support?
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Sweet. Your post is full of win. nt
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. By "criminal mass murdering psychopaths" do you mean Truman? FDR? Both?
Oh, I'm sure Howard Zinn would have done a much better job.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Yeah, he would have.
He would practiced non-violent resistance. That sure would have taught the Nazis and Imperial Japanese a thing or two! :rofl:
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. What psychopaths?
You mean FDR and Truman? :eyes:

"Same old tired and discredited RW BS you post everywhere and every day on this board."

Why do you consider me RW? Because I disagree with you?
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Same old reactionary bullshit.
Spouting reused worn-out crap excuses without any original thinking.

I will always condemn the unprecedented use of nuclear weapons on a civilian population in order to scare off the russians and test-run fiendish weaponry to appease the thriving war industries.

"Massive, bloody invasion"? For wat reason did their have to be an invasion?

The Japanese didn't have any oil or anything left to fight with.

Everything you said was canned bullshit.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Canned bullshit? That's you to a T.
" will always condemn the unprecedented use of nuclear weapons on a civilian population"

So there were no war industries in Hiroshima? How ignorant you are of your host country. Or you just believe their infamous textbooks about the war years.

"For wat reason did their have to be an invasion?"

What other option? Continue the massive blockade and bombing missions? That wouldn't forced out the Imperial factions determined to fight to the end. Let the Soviets invade? Sorry, the Allies were already seeing how the Soviets did in EE and the Allies weren't interested in seeing that in Japan.

Your statement is the same revisionist tripe that Japan has been using for years.
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. Wasting my time, but...
There were four choices... invade, blockade, bomb with conventional weapons, or use the A-bombs. Invasion was the least popular choice within the government... too many casualties. The blockade was working... Japan was starving and would have surrendered within months. We used the bombs to scare Russia.... period. Interesting that Hiroshima was not a military target, and that Nagasaki was the center of Catholic population in Japan, with a cathedral and university.

Turns out the military did NOT want to use the Bombs. They felt the Japanese were defeated, we were out of targets, and the Japanese had already sued for peace. The average soldier knew none of this, of course, so they might well have been told they were going to invade against heavy opposition.
- - - - - -
http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/2010/atomicdec.htm

Here's the views of the top Naval Officers at that time... Air Force and others at the site mentioned above.

In his memoirs Admiral William D. Leahy, the President's Chief of Staff--and the top official who presided over meetings of both the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Combined U.S.-U.K. Chiefs of Staff--minced few words:
he use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . .

n being the first to use it, we . . . adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children. (See p. 3, Introduction)
Privately, on June 18, 1945--almost a month before the Emperor's July intervention to seek an end to the war and seven weeks before the atomic bomb was used--Leahy recorded in his diary:
It is my opinion at the present time that a surrender of Japan can be arranged with terms that can be accepted by Japan and that will make fully satisfactory provisions for America's defense against future trans-Pacific aggression. (See p. 324, Chapter 26)

Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet stated in a public address given at the Washington Monument on October 5, 1945:

The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war. (See p. 329, Chapter 26) . . .
In a private 1946 letter to Walter Michels of the Association of Philadelphia Scientists, Nimitz observed that "the decision to employ the atomic bomb on Japanese cities was made on a level higher than that of the Joint Chiefs of Staff." (See pp. 330-331, Chapter 26)

Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr., Commander U.S. Third Fleet, stated publicly in 1946:
The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment. . . . It was a mistake to ever drop it. . . . had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it. . . . It killed a lot of Japs, but the Japs had put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before. (See p. 331, Chapter 26)

Why didn't Japan surrender after Hiroshima? The fast answer is that nobody in Japan really knew what happened to Hiroshima. Communications had been out in Japan for months, no trains or planes went anywhere. Cities were being bombed round the clock, so the rumors that Hiroshima had been flattened didn't mean much. Three days was not enough.

The Japanese had already sued for peace.

When I taught Advanced Placement US History, I had my students debate the use of the bomb.... they had to do all the research. The side that chose "The US was justified in the use of the A-Bomb" lost EVERY time. The kids ended up spluttering and pissed that they had gotten stuck with an impossible position to defend. The more the research, the more damning quotes popped up. Stimson and Truman wanted to scare the Russians and keep them out of the war.

Full disclosure.... I was stationed in Japan just before I was sent to Vietnam.... I was a guard at Iwakuni Marine Air Base. The nearest big city was modern Hiroshima. We went to Peace Park..at ground zero.. to pick up Japanese girls. I loved Japan.
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azul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Good post, thanks.
There is still so much closed-mindedness on the issue of bombing civilians. It is in the realm of emotion where facts don't count, and a more useful discussion of it may be about winning security or a war at the cost of your souls. Or why some people have a conscience and a sense of justice and what is right while some just don't seem to be able to care less.

Thank goodness for Howard Zinn's battles with his conscience.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #29
67. It's easy to be high-minded

When you're not fighting for your life.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. thank you for this post--to this day, I cannot believe people are defending the use of atomic
weapons, especially on civilian populations. when I point out that WE are the only country that has ever used these weapons of mass destruction, and WE have the largest stockpile of wmd's on earth--such people think it is okay. when I ask how they would feel if other countries decided that, not only do we have all these weapons, but that WE are the major threat, and they should invade-- "but, that's different!!!!" no, it isn't.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. Yup. The war was over before the bombs. There was no longer a threat from Japan.
And, because Russian had entered the war against Japan and defeating it's armies in China, Truman saw a threat to Japan from the Soviet Union.

BTW I was at Atsugi '62-'63. There was a barmaid named Michiko in the EM club. Massive burn scars on her face. Hiroshima.
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. One of the "Ko" sisters... nt...
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Indeed. A family became very fond of while I was there.
I almost extended my enlistment to return and extend my knowledge of the family but good sense overrode my youthful desire for more research. Later, they asked me to extend my enlistment to visit another part of Asia and shoot people I didn't know. My answer to that question, involving my feelings about LBJ and my general feelings about the Marine Corps that included phrases like "the Suck", "Lifers", and "shove", got me 30 days mess duty. Time well spent.
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. "Eat the apple....." nt
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #27
39. "Why didn't Japan surrender after Hiroshima?"
Because various factions were determined to continue the war and they thought we couldn't repeat Hiroshima.

It took Nagasaki for the Emperor to put his foot down.

They were still fighting in Japan, they were still fighting in China, they were recovering soldier to the Home island as fast as they could. They were preparing for invasion.

All the post-atomic age hand-wringing in the world won't change the facts.

"Hiroshima was not a military target"

Tell that to the war industries there.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. You have become a one-man comedy act. nt
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Just to those who want to white-wash history..
Run along back to the sheep.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Being an apologist for mass slaughter of civilians.
Re: Trohan Article
<snip>

A Secret Memorandum
It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.

In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)

This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:

Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
Surrender of designated war criminals.
Is this memorandum authentic? It was supposedly leaked to Trohan by Admiral William D. Leahy, presidential Chief of Staff. (See: M. Rothbard in A. Goddard, ed., Harry Elmer Barnes: Learned Crusader <1968>, pp. 327f.) Historian Harry Elmer Barnes has related (in "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958):

The authenticity of the Trohan article was never challenged by the White House or the State Department, and for very good reason. After General MacArthur returned from Korea in 1951, his neighbor in the Waldorf Towers, former President Herbert Hoover, took the Trohan article to General MacArthur and the latter confirmed its accuracy in every detail and without qualification.

<snip>

The article goes into great detail about the peace overtures and political rationalizations.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html
cachukis
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. Being an apologist for mass slaughter of civilians.
Edited on Wed Jul-21-10 12:02 AM by Confusious
I guess you haven't read much about the war.

At that point, japan had slaughtered millions by hand. So had Germany.

The battle of Britain targeted civilians. The US Army Air Force bombing offensive targeted military production, but they were always in civilian centers. The fire bombing of Tokyo killed more then the atomic bombings did.

There had been feelers, but they were never serious, because they never had the acquiescence of the emperor.

Only after the second bomb did he step in to break up the argument of whether to surrender.

If anyone is defending the slaughter of civilians, it's you, defending fascist Japan.

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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. Wrong. I am arguing against the use of a 2 nukes.
If you are incapable of seeing the difference between the two, you need help that I cannot provide.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. No, I can't
Edited on Wed Jul-21-10 12:09 AM by Confusious
Considering the number of people the empire of japan slaughtered in cold, ice-cold, blood, I think they got off easy.

Soldiers in nanking using the heads they cut off with their swords as soccer balls.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. I know you can't and that is the problem. nt
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. You've been reading to many history books from japan
Edited on Wed Jul-21-10 12:25 AM by Confusious
Where they admit to nothing they did before the war with United States.

Brainwashed whitewashing.

Oh, and howard zinn.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #63
66. So what kind of death should be hurled on US citizens for the people we have killed?
That is the problem with your position.

I did nothing to defend Japan's actions. That conversation obviously occurred in your head cause it didn't happen here.

What I did was say that the US was the only country in history to have ever dropped 2 nuclear bombs on a civilian population.


That plus the firebombing of Tokyo and Dresden do not exactly place us in the good guys column either.

So what kind of punishment do we deserve for that "cold-blooded killing"?

Remember, you have to remain consistent or you're a hypocrite.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #66
71. It's all a matter of degrees
Edited on Wed Jul-21-10 12:47 AM by Confusious
You're not going to find a saint in war. I know that. You can't, or won't, understand that.

I watched a show about US soldiers during WW2 once. One guy was telling a story I remember very vividly.

German soldiers would fire their panzerfaust, blowing a US tank to pieces, killing 5 guys. Then they would surrender.

The US troops got fed up and just shot them.

There were no saints. But one side was a HELL of a lot better then the other.

2 bombings killed 150,000 people. One or both were military targets, within the geneva conventions, as was tokyo.

As for dresden, one of the top NAZIs, Albert Speer, said if you had done that a few more times, the war would have been over.

It's all a matter of degrees, 100,000 lives to save a million. Those are the only trade offs in war.


one other thing: I always hear around here about how "we" are all responsible for the dead in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we are responsible now, aren't the Japanese then responsible for what their government did? Are there any innocent?
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #71
75. Yup, the Japanese are responsible. So are we.
You didn't answer my question.

Yes, of course everything is relative. Force must be met with force.

So with consideration to that, what about killing 3 million Vietnamese with carpet bombing?

What about killing millions of Iraqis who have no defense? Or Afghanistan?

Answer the question. You say Japan "deserved at least that much". That is your justification for the bomb. That they 'deserved' it.

So what do we deserve. Be consistent.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. Why wouldn't I be?
Edited on Wed Jul-21-10 12:57 AM by Confusious
We started those wars. Japan started that one.

The Japanese were horrible and barbaric. I might feel worse if they followed the Geneva Conventions, but they completely ignored them.

killing civilians in cold blood on wake Island. Surrendered troops in the Bataan death march. Millions of Chinese killed for fun.

We're being barbarians now, though we still don't rise to the level of the Japanese or the Germans then.

We're getting what we sowed. Hatred, money down the tubes, suffering here. Even if we pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan, this isn't going to be over for the next 100 years.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. Come on now. What about bombs dropped on us?
Don't we deserve to suffer more civilian casualties for what we've done.

We have tortured and ignored Geneva Conventions too.

You seem to feel that civilians should be made to die horrible deaths if their leadership commits atrocious acts of war.

So how many civilians would it be reasonable for a random country , like China for example, to kill on US soil?

Gimme a number. Be consistent. Hatred for 100 years just ain't gonna cut it.

Be consistent.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #79
82. I'm getting tired of playing your game, but one more time

None of them had to die. Japan didn't have to start the war. The emperor was warned by Yamamoto. "I will run wild for 6 months, but after that I can promise nothing"

He could have stopped the government. He could have surrendered when Okinawa was invaded. He could have surrendered after the fire bombings.


There was no tsunami coming to save them a second time.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. Game over. You aren't consistent. Review thought processes. nt
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #66
76. Six months of fire bombings

and the emperor did nothing. He knew the score. He knew what was coming. Yet he did nothing. He was the only one who could.

"After six months of intense strategic fire-bombing of 67 Japanese cities the Japanese government ignored an ultimatum given by the Potsdam Declaration."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #49
69. Bullshit.
Defeated doesn't mean surrendered.

They were moving troops back to the home islands.

They were preparing thousands of suicide planes and boats.

They were giving housewives and children spears and teaching them to strap-on explosives and roll under tanks.

Factions of the army and government scoffed at Hiroshima and they wanted to negotiate a deal that would let them keep Taiwan and Korea.

The Emperor dragged his heels until Nagasaki.

And to this day the Japanese refuse to own to their responsibility.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #69
73. Why did you ignore my post and repeat your talking points.
You cite nothing but your own preconceived notions.

Yawn.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #73
78. I repeated no talking points
Edited on Wed Jul-21-10 12:59 AM by Confusious
Unless you consider history a "talking point."

I think you might. It didn't come out of the "mouth" of howard zinn, so it can't be true.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. All talk, no walk. nt
Edited on Wed Jul-21-10 01:08 AM by Bonobo
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #80
83. No intelligent comment, just a little saying.

All out of howard zinn quotes?
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. You are the one ignoring citations while offering nothing substantive. nt
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #73
88. Facts aren't notions.
Perhaps your time in Japan has dulled your awareness of the issues I'm discussing.

Silly boy, think outside the box.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. You keep ignoring this. I will try one last time, little guy.
Edited on Wed Jul-21-10 01:44 AM by Bonobo
Re: Trohan Article
<snip>

A Secret Memorandum
It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.

In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)

This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:

Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
Surrender of designated war criminals.
Is this memorandum authentic? It was supposedly leaked to Trohan by Admiral William D. Leahy, presidential Chief of Staff. (See: M. Rothbard in A. Goddard, ed., Harry Elmer Barnes: Learned Crusader <1968>, pp. 327f.) Historian Harry Elmer Barnes has related (in "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958):

The authenticity of the Trohan article was never challenged by the White House or the State Department, and for very good reason. After General MacArthur returned from Korea in 1951, his neighbor in the Waldorf Towers, former President Herbert Hoover, took the Trohan article to General MacArthur and the latter confirmed its accuracy in every detail and without qualification.

<snip>

The article goes into great detail about the peace overtures and political rationalizations.

-----------------
P.S. Maybe reading too many comic books has dulled your mind? I gave them up when I was, umm, 13 years old.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #89
92. And I've read different, little fella.
You're cute but boring.

"P.S. Maybe reading too many comic books has dulled your mind? I gave them up when I was, umm, 13 years old."

So the medium was too challenging for you? Understandable.

Given your limited abilities in history, it's not surprising you're not much a of reader
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. Weren't you the guy who outright LIED about being able to read Japanese?
Doesn't say much for your honesty or your credibility, fan boy,
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. Link that.
I never made any such claim.

Use the search function and find-out.

Making up stuff, you're in it deep little monkey.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #95
99. I ASKED if it was you. I didn't SAY it was you. Read again.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #99
100. Obviously, it wasn't.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #100
103. You're right. But I found the Trib link to the article.
Discrediting the link does not discredit the original article.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/475703002.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Aug+19,+1945&author=WALTER+TROHAN&pub=Chicago+Daily+Tribune+(1923-1963)&edition=&startpage=1&desc=BARE+PEACE+BID+U.+S.+REBUFFED+7+MONTHS+AGO

BARE PEACE BID U. S. REBUFFED 7 MONTHS AGO



BARE PEACE BID U. S. REBUFFED 7 MONTHS AGO
Chicago Daily Tribune (1923-1963) - Chicago, Ill.
Author: WALTER TROHAN
Date: Aug 19, 1945
Start Page: 1
Pages: 1
Text Word Count: 630
Abstract (Document Summary)
Release of censorship restrictions in the United States makes it possible to announce that Japan's first peace bid was relayed to the White House seven months ago.
Reproduced with permission of the copyright owner. Further reproduction or distribution is prohibited without permission.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. Oh and just to be clear. You refuse to talk about the citation I posted 4 times.
You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #94
97. I'm not ignoring the citation. I've read it before.
It's post-war position jockeying.

Show me the "secret memo".

And oh yeah, YOU'RE USING A HOLOCAUST DENIAL WEBSITE AND IT'S SCUMBAG AUTHOR!.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. Okay, I was wrong.
I picked it up from another poster in this very thread and should have been more careful.

I was thrown because he was said to be sourced from a Chicago Tribune writer.

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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. I hear crickets.
You see, all you have are talking points and you don't know what you are talking about.

It is why no one responds to you.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #54
70. Pretty hard to hear those crickets at work.
Which is where I was most of the day.

"It is why no one responds to you."

:rofl:

Run along now, you're probably late for your next spoon-feeding from your honorable hosts.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
50. Nobody in Japan knew what happened to Hiroshima the day after the bomb dropped.
Because communication lines across Japan were severely eroded or destroyed entirely by American bombing missions. Nearly all of their cities had been destroyed by that time, and what was left of their power grid was a joke. It would've taken a fair amount of time before they realized what was happening because of the communication lag. While it may be true there was factional in-fighting within the regime, it's rather difficult to imagine that they were making decisions on just a "rumor" that Hiroshima was flattened, and I hardly would think they would trust American propaganda asserting that they're using a new weapon that kills entire cities with one bomb at a time when they were having trouble just communicating with their ground units.
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kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
55. More choice than four. Zinn found wisdom and that is what he picked up in Japan

Just one point I want to make. This is the question that says, "What else would you do?" They say, " Hitler? You had to do something." I agree. You have to do something about all these things. You have to do something about winning independence if you're oppressed. You have to do something about slavery if there's slavery. You have to do something about fascism. You have to do something about all these things. But, you don't have to do war. If we have any brains (I don't know if we do). We are supposed to be smart. We are smart. There're so many ways. Surely, you should be able to understand that in between war and passivity there are a thousand possibilities, you see.

It's curious that once a historical event has taken place a certain way, once history has played itself out in a certain way - Hitler invades Czechoslovakia, Poland, we go to war. War lasts a number of years. The war is over. Once it gets played out in a certain way - fascism is over
- once it is played out that way, it becomes very hard to imagine it could have been achieved some other way. You know when something has happened in history it takes on a certain air of inevitability. This is the only way it could have happened. No.
<snip>

From Three Holy Wars
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
30. k and r--thank you for reminding me to get this book.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
38. K & Rec # 56 (nt)
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
40. I'm looking forward to this. nt
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kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
42. For those who have conscience of humanity, read Three Holy Wars by Howard Zinn
http://www.zmag.org/zvideo/3322
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zUS_oh4XeU
January, 14 2010 By Howard Zinn
Three Holy Wars: Progressive's 100 Anniversary Conference

<snip>
Did I really know what happened when that bomb was dropped on Hiroshima?
Did I know what happened to those people? Did I have any idea what that meant to those hundreds of thousands of people, of those men and women and children? No, I did not. When I began to think about that, then I began to think about the people under my bombs whom I hadn't thought about. I never saw them. Flying at 30,000 feet you don't see anybody; you just drop bombs.

<snip>
Three months before Nagasaki, we sent planes over Tokyo to fire bomb Tokyo, and 100,000 people were killed in one night in the bombing of Tokyo.

Later, when I visited Japan and I talked to people there, and later when
I visited Hiroshima and met with people who were survivors of Hiroshima
- and you should have seen them: people without legs and arms and blind and so on. When I could actually see what that meant, that war, the fifty million dead in the war. You can say, well, we defeated fascism. Well, did we? Did we really?


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jah the baptist Donating Member (329 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
43. The US should have stayed out of WW2?
To argue that the US, England and France were simply imperialistic moral equivelants of Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan is extremely poor analysis - despite those nations\' imperialism.
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kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
47. War cannot be accepted no matter what. - Howard Zinn

You have to come to the conclusion as I have. War cannot be accepted no matter what. No matter what. No matter the reasons given: liberty, democracy, this, that. War by its definition is the indiscriminate killing of huge numbers of people for ends which are uncertain. When you think about means and ends, you think about that ethical proposition and apply it to war. The means are horrible certainly. The end is uncertain. That alone should make you hesitate.

From "Three Holy Wars"
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Tell this to the aggressors.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #47
60. That quote, and the one before, make him look naive. nt
Edited on Wed Jul-21-10 12:06 AM by Confusious
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kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
52. Bring Troop Home from all over the world.. we need to take care of people here!!
Edited on Tue Jul-20-10 07:25 PM by kgnu_fan
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kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-10 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
53. Bring our troop home!
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
96. You know what I think?
Hiroshima was understandable given the circumstances. Nagasaki was "Whee, let's see if our other toy works too!"

Am I the only one?
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #96
101. The Onion agrees with you.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/aug-10-1945,10616/

But seriously, the Emperor and various factions dragged their feet after Hiroshima. Many general said the U.S. had only one bomb, they were wrong.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #101
102. They nailed it about the Moon landing too.
Love the Onion.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #102
104. Me too.
The site is bookmarked and I have about 6 of their books on my shelf.

The moon landing audio is LOL, plus their AVclub is great for reviews and interviews.
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kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-10 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
105. The whole discussion in this thread really shows why we are currently doing so many wars
all around the world, sending special operation troops in 75 countries for secret operations, assassinate people with no remorse, spending gazillion of dollars on wars, weapons, more wars. Yet at home, we do not take care of our own veterans who come back wounded, we do not educate our children well, we do not take care of our elders. We destroy our own social fabric. Where is national conscience? Conscience is only possible with capacity for remorse.
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