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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:29 AM
Original message
Bin-Laden Won
It may not be the popular or politically correct thing to say, or an especially 'patriotic' sentiment, but I can't shake the realization of how successful bin Laden's plane crash plan was for his stated aims. If we allow ourselves to measure the Afghan conflict in terms of victory or defeat (as escalation and occupation supporters have), we have to judge the mass-murdering megalomaniac's efforts a win.

In challenging that judgment, it doesn't matter how many more Afghans or Pakistanis our military forces manage to kill, maim, or capture. It doesn't even matter in that judgment, how we regard our military's nation-building defense and enabling of the Afghan regime intended to keep their Taliban from regaining power and influence.

All that we need to make that negative judgment of our military campaign and al-Qaeda's progress is to take account of our very military presence and offensive activity which has resulted in a stalemated conflict between the U.S.-led military forces and each and every Afghan or Pakistani who dares to resist our military's opportunistic advance across their homeland.

There has been no measurable intimidation factor of the growing insurgency for the U.S. to trumpet behind the assaults and land-grabs exercised by our escalated forces in Afghanistan. There has been no measurable progress toward anything resembling 'democracy' in Afghanistan behind the sacrifices of those fighting and dying in defense of the long-past elections there. There has been no rush of Afghan civilians to assume our opportunistic, nation-building effort in our place. The escalated occupation doesn't even appear to have created any optimism from those charged with maintaining our national security that we've lessened the danger of some future attack on the nation from individual(s) aligning themselves with our fugitive al-Qaeda nemesis.

It's amazing, therefore, to hear the President and the administration talk of 'progress' and 'successes' in Afghanistan as if our national government's reaction to the 9-11 plane crashes was any more decisive than the years of quagmire and death that our military posture has fostered and encouraged in the country and the region. In fact, the stated aim of the U.S. military effort in Afghanistan has been described by military leaders and the White House as an attempt to 'breaking the momentum' of the Taliban insurgency and 'turning' the terrorist-associated organization, instead of the more direct talk at the inception of the escalation of force in December 2009 about 'defeating' al-Qaeda and capturing bin Laden and associates.

What's missing from the assessments of 'progress' and 'success' from occupation supporters is the acknowledgment that our nation's military posture in Afghanistan and the region has actually widened the initial conflict between the U.S. and the original band of 9-11 perpetrators into a proxy war in which Afghans and Pakistanis are bearing the brunt of resentment and resistance to our imposed alliance with the dubious regimes clinging to power. Every move that the U.S. makes to enable or defend those country's regimes deepens the initial, blundering acquiescence to bin Laden's plot to draw the U.S. into a conflict where Muslims and others in the region became targets and casualties of our nations military forces.

Seemingly unaware or indifferent to that initial acquiescence of the U.S. to the aim of the 9-11 perpetrators, this new president has doubled-down on that fateful appeasement and has decided to try and temper the fires that our military forces have sparked with their dubious defense against the ghosts, remnants, and outgrowth of our own misguided military activity in the region since 9-11.

I get it. The new administration's attitude is that past mistakes don't obviate the need and efficacy (in their view) of pressing forward with the military campaign in a manner which isn't half-hearted or under-resourced. They're optimistic that our military forces can achieve enough of a push-back against resisting Afghans, and a crippling of anyone operating behind the moniker of al-Qaeda or the Taliban, to allow and encourage Afghans to assume a fight against that insurgence which would compliment our own national security interests in defending against 'al-Qaeda' and against further attacks on our nation.

The obvious problem with that equation is in the self-perpetuated, counterproductive effect the U.S. military presence and activity has on achieving those unifying goals. The present escalation of force is unfolding too slowly to achieve any decisive military intimidation of the vast and organic number of individuals compelled to violent expressions of self-determination and independence which our occupying and offensive forces regard as mere obstacles to their opportunistic advance and their nation-building ambitions.

The resistant violence hasn't abated; it's intensified as our forces are building. This past July in Afghanistan was determined by observers to be the 'deadliest month yet' in the entirety of our occupation. It's almost impossible to imagine that more NATO forces will reverse that trend. Even the military commanders have recently predicted that violence and deaths will likely increase in the near future. I'm at a loss to imagine how that prospect will enhance or relationship with Afghans or others in the region and encourage them to adopt and carry our nation's banner of war against their resisting country-folk. But, that's the plan . . .

Commenting on the Wikileak documents concerning Afghanistan last week, President Obama insisted that he had a new strategy unfolding in Afghanistan and that he was committed to 'see that strategy through'.

"For seven years, we failed to implement a strategy adequate to the challenge in this region," President Obama said. "That's why we have substantially increased our commitment there, insisted upon greater accountability from Afghanistan and Pakistan, (and) developed a new strategy that can work," he said.

Congress gave the President a $37 billion vote of confidence for his Afghanistan strategy this week (in addition to about $130 billion they've already approved for Afghanistan and Iraq this year.) So our military will continue to skirmish, raid, and capture territory until someone in authority decides we've gotten enough of an upper hand on the resistance to bow out of the conflict we've escalated and aggravated.

Forget about defeating al-Qaeda. The consensus seems to be that we've moved on to accepting our national fidelity to bin Laden's master plan to compel our forces to self-perpetuating violence in his neighborhood. Our leaders have sworn to uphold the calculated conflict the terrorist leader fostered and encouraged with his initial, deadly plot, and they've bid our beleaguered forces to enact and resolve their dubious power-play. The advantage has gone to bin Laden since Bush first postured against him and directed our nation's military to vengeance against any and all individuals in the way of our military forces obliging advance on the region. You can't undo that fateful acquiescence, no matter how many more resisting Taliban in Afghanistan our troops manage to kill, maim, or capture.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. We totally lost and are celebrating that loss by putting a mosque at the site.
I can't help but think that Bin Laden is thrilled up in his little cave in Pakistan.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. That is truly a jingoistic thing to say
And it's target are Americans. American Mosques are for American Muslims. It is a religion and no more a terrorist organization that the Christian Church although it's a given that many would argue that point. But those that would argue that their religion is pure as the driven snow and that everyone else's religion is evil are, to put it simply, stupid. Luckily for them there's no law against stupid.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Does Bin Laden want Americans to become Muslim? Is he happy? Have his purposes been met?
Edited on Sun Aug-01-10 10:50 AM by dkf
Looks like he achieved everything he could have wanted to me. Look at it from his point of view. How is having a mosque/community center there not a source of joy for him?

I'm not into this anti Muslim thing. It just occurred to me that the man must be thrilled. You don't think?
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
35. Bin Laden's goal was not to invade the US. It was to destroy it
In that sense he damn near won. What probably makes him squirm in delight is the economic crash we're experiencing. That was his stated goal.

I doubt he cares for American Muslims any more than he cares for any other legitimate expression of true Islam.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
41. Putting a community center, which is really what it is, two
Edited on Sun Aug-01-10 02:17 PM by sabrina 1
whole blocks away from Ground Zero, attached to an already existing Mosque may be one of the few things OBL would not be especially happy about.

If we accept the Government's tale of people in caves plotting to take away freedoms, the last thing they would want is to see a country that was not so traumatized by their actions that they cower in fear and go against their own principles of 'equality' for all citizens by singling out one group for the kind of bigotry we claim to abhor.

In fact seeing the Muslim fear-based, ignorant bigotry of the past ten years, assuming these 'cave-dwellers' really were offended by our 'freedoms', would be the best advertisement for recruitment OBL could imagine.'See', he can say 'I told you they hate our people'

OBL won when the Patriot Act was passed, when we went to Iraq, when the Military Commissions Act was passed with the help of Democrats. When we threw out the Rule of Law and declared some people less human and not entitled to due process. When we submitted like sheep to domestic spying, to being searched every time we want to travel, to a 'no-fly list' and to all the restrictions and destructions of our Constitutional rights we embraced enthusiastically because we were so afraid.

And he wins every time a U.S. bomb kills another Muslim child or the torture of human beings is reported. And most importantly when we do not prosecute those crimes.

Mostly he wins when we discriminate and encourage the hatred so shamefully tolerated towards Muslim/Americans in this country.

All of that is, of course, if anything we were told about the motivations behind 9/11 was true, especially 'they hate for our freedoms'. If so, then we are playing right into their hands, whoever they are.

However, I suspect our enemies in Iraq and Afghanistan are citizens who did not like having their countries invaded, their people slaughtered and tortured and their resources stolen. After all what we do if it happened to us?

Al Queda? I don't know why whenever I see those words I feel uncomfortable about using them in a serious way.
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verges Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
43. I heard that he's dead. I read it on DU. nt
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AlabamaLibrul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. You're still buying that it's a mosque and at the WTC site.
We had a pretty, ahem, "healthy" debate about that yesterday. You are entitled to your own opinion (that bin Laden is thrilled up in his little cave in Pakistan) but not to your own facts.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. The fact that anyone thinks there is a mosque at the site is a win for him
And that was blasted all over the place. I've come to terms with the fact we are complete losers in this war he started. Sad but true.
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AlabamaLibrul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. So by that reasoning you're "emboldening the terrorists" by continuing to call it such. (eom)
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. I call it as I see it.
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AlabamaLibrul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. Then we are in agreement. (eom)
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. The fact that you continue to repeat an offensively untrue thing shows Osama won? Wow.
Maybe you could start by realizing the offensiveness of the lie and quit repeating it?
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
25. You should know by now it's all perception. Geez.
Does the truth matter? Irony is it wasn't Bin Laden that was going on about the cherry on his ice cream sundae. Mostly it was Sarah Palin etal. Do I really care if there is a mosque/center around/on top of/in the vicinity of 9/11? Not really. As an agnostic all these religions are the same to me. Do I care that Bin Ladin is chortling in his cave. Yeah kind of.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Perhaps the sarcasm icon might help. True, giving the sheeple something intangible to fear
Edited on Sun Aug-01-10 11:41 AM by uppityperson
while giving them the New Improved Opportunity to work with what is actually happening has happened.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Why are you repeating something that isn't true? Nt
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. when I think of that site
. . . my first thought is how despicably our legislators have abandoned the first-responders. The 'mosque' issue looks to be a red-herring designed to divide and inflame opinion against our American Muslim community there.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
34. Did you know the building was damaged in 9/11 and it's been closed since then?
I didn't realize it. Maybe people didn't die in that building but it's availability is due to Bin Laden. Weird
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. Why are you lying?
:shrug:

RL
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
31. ABC news: Despite Protests, 9/11 Mosque Wins Key Vote By RAY SANCHEZ
Edited on Sun Aug-01-10 11:47 AM by dkf
http://abcnews.go.com/m/screen?id=10747570

Cnn: In battle to build mosque near Ground Zero, opponents ask 'why there?'

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/07/14/new.york.ground.zero.mosque/index.html

Cbs: Plan For Mosque Near 9/11 Site Offends Some NYers
Plans To Construct Mosque Causes Mixed Reactions

http://wcbstv.com/local/ground.zero.911.2.1678456.html

AP: Building damaged in 9/11 to be mosque for NYC Muslims
Updated 5/7/2010 7:24 PM 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-05-07-mosque-ground-zero_N.htm









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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
48. Links don't hide your bigotry.
and there already is a mosque even closer to ground zero.

Should we knock it down?

:puke:

RL
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. We LOST on so many points I can't count them all
Edited on Sun Aug-01-10 11:16 AM by FreakinDJ
We surrendered our RIGHTs for Bush's "Security"

We removed our troops from Saudi territories

We took money away from the Citizens of this country and gave it to the Middle Eastern Countries

and now we are building a Mosque at Ground Zero

Of course RATpubliCON Talking Heads will completely ignore the majority of our losses came at the hands of their "Beloved High Functioning Moron - George Bush" and do their utmost best to equate this with "Obama is a Muslim" rumor. Completely forget about all the Millions of Boys who gave their life in the WWII to protect our RIGHTs and FREEDOMs from dictators like Hitler/Bush
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
7. Tim Osman
Bin Laden has been dead since 2002. He's strictly a patsy anyway. 911 was an inside job exclusively designed to foment wars for oil, opium, conquest, and military expenditure.

We went into Iraq to control the oil and oust Saddam. We went into Afghan to re-establish the CIA's opium and secure the area for the energy companies. And both countries for military expenditure. 50 $1MIL each cruise missiles on the first day of the Afghan invasion, there's not $50Mil worth of targets in the entire country.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. It is so weird how people here can readily discuss the origins of Al Queada (Mujahadeen) and
yet deny that 9/11 was an inside job conducted by a faction of Neocons in the U.S. government. They STOLE the 2000 elections in order to put their plan into action.

I am deeply perplexed by this disconnect in this community.

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #18
32. lol nt
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
46. I am as perplexed as you are.
:banghead:
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
10. Won what? What was the prize?
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Bin-Laden won when we gave up our "Rights for Security"
and now we have neither
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. well, nothing that anyone with a shred of decency should value
Who really knows what the true pleasure is of a megalomaniac? Financial gain? Self-glory?

I don't think I was vague about what I thought his intentions were. I don't believe I'd ever consider any benefit from all of this a prize. That's not to say that someone else might.
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thelordofhell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. Bin Laden got what he wanted
Our bases in Saudi Arabia are gone.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
38. As is his rival
Saddam Hussein.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
14. Your post indicates that you believe the official bush admin story of 9/11...
which means that you have diverted blame for the attacks away from the actual perpetrators and given the credit to bin laden. It was very hard to continue reading your post after that.

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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
17. I never thought I'd see pro bin Laden posts on DU.
Not just one, but more, we can all read. This dismissal of a war left to fester for 7 years and now saying we did it bin Laden's way.....I don't get it. I know people are pissed at Obama for doing what he said he was going to do, but to go to the side of the perps...

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. you're having a comprehension problem
There's nothing to promote or celebrate about the U.S. government and military acquiescing in the realization of bin Laden's goals, and I haven't at all in this post.
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. The subject title Bin Laden Won
I'm not having any problem comprehending.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. you assume I think that's a good thing
What's in the body of my post that you believe would suggest I'm 'pro-bin Laden' or this is a 'pro bin Laden' article?

You've either misread (or neglected to read through) my post or are stretching the substance of what I've written beyond my intent.


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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. The last paragraph for one.
Other ones within the piece. Appeasement. The objective seems to be clear, bin Laden won. I can't argue your intent, it's yours. I can only say what I got from your piece, and that's mine. I read it several times. I am still shaking my head.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. so intellectually myopic to miss the point and distort that paragraph
Nowhere in the article do I imply that what's occurred (the official appeasment to bin Laden's stated goals of drawing our nation into a violent conflict in the region of his homeland) is a good thing. I argue just the opposite. You've completely distorted my article to suit your summary premise. I'll leave you to that.
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #29
44. Maybe you should have put a string of sad faces in your post
Some people need to be given cue cards around here.
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raouldukelives Donating Member (945 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
21. Bin Laden won
When Bush was made President.
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unhappycamper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
22. K&R n/t
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
33. bin Laden's HANDLERS won.

Missing from the last nine years is what Bin Laden actually said about 9-11. We've gotten mistranslations and selected quotes, but the gist of his comments have been left off most all the subsequent discussion, including:

"There exists a government within the government of the United States. That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks....The United States should trace the perpetrators of these attacks to those persons who want to make the present century a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own nation could survive." -- Osama bin Laden, quoted from a radio broadcast by Daily Ummat, Pakistani newspaper, 28 Sept. 2001

Those who made bin Laden also profit from war and death. An, by weakening the U.S. military, they have acted as enemies of the nation.

Thank you for an excellent post, bigtree. K&R in the hope more people -- including DUers -- read it.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Thank you Octofish
Some have not heard what OBL said after 9/11. But Little Boots was the gift that keeps on giving. "They hate us for our freedoms" so I'm going to initiate the Patriot Act so they won't hate us anymore. I'm going to funnel all that money to my war profiteering friends and family until I bleed the country. I'm going to close the base in SA as part of the deal. And, since Iraq is no friend of SA or OBL or my daddy, come to think of it--I'll hire a PR firm to sell the war so we can make more money.

And, I'm wondering how much money has the Bin Laden family made on these wars? I'm just wondering. I'm thinking we are the suckers in the game on all sides, draining the life out of us like vampires, while a few gain even more money and power.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. Thank you.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
37. Bin Laden wants a united Islam...
that will take over the world. How's that going for him? That's the thing about these extremists. They dream of instituting some sort of utopia that can never be had, and as such, they can NEVER win. They are ALWAYS fighting. It's what keeps them going.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. I always had the sense that the 'unity' appeal was just more manipulation
What I think the principles on both sides relish most is chaos and disorder in which to practice their protection schemes where leaders on both sides posture as if they're protectors behind their opportunistic and self-perpetuating offensives fought by their paranoid and impressionable minions.


Back and forth, the ascended,
Leaders hurl their followers,
Into the bloody abyss upended,
Neither of them can be bothered,

Save the ones who do the dying,
There's nothing left for the tyrants,
But to gather up more kindling,
To appease the smoldering silence,

Mourning melts grief into anger,
Brooding saviors rise to avenge,
Oblivious, now of the danger,
Their prideful posture does pretend,

Power maims to gain the ground,
Casts bold shadows across fear-ed's face,
Yet, reaps the bare Earth where death stands,
Disturbs dust which was laid to waste,

Shrouds the martyr's bloody veil,
Soils the tyrant's immaculate cloak,
Yet, Mesopotamia will prevail,
To spite the war its descendants spoke.


-- Ron Fullwood (6-10-2006)
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
39. bin Laden wanted to bankrupt the United States
and he wanted Bush to invade a Muslim country. He knew the idiot Bush would play into his plan.
Had the Supreme Court stayed out of the Florida recount the events of 9-11 would not have transpired under President Gore.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
45. Bin Laden hoped to overthrow King Abdullah and Mubarak and crown himself Emperor of the Muslim world
He definitely succeeded at weakening the US and getting our troops out of Saudi Arabia but he didn't succeed at making himself more powerful (which what he was really hoping for).
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
49. yes, and the jingoistic meathead wannabe patriots helped him
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