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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 07:52 PM
Original message
The Obama Education/Health Reasoning Dichotomy
Healthcare
an entrenched "uniquely American" private delivery system that must be preserved and not socialized in any way because Americans are too used to it and could never withstand the change.(Despite the fact that Medicare successfully covers 43 milllion Americans)

Education
an entrenched American public delivery system that should be privatized immediately and Americans against it are just resistant to change, too darn bad.

Opposite reasoning to achieve the same result - profits and putting tax dollars into private hands.

Interesting how that works.
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
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femmocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. I cannot understand how he is so entrenched in his views to privatize our schools.
I blame most of it on Arne Duncan, but that doesn't excuse Obama. Maybe there were hints of his "republican-lite" views on education, e.g., merit pay and accountability, during the campaign, but I never ever thought he would be this unwilling to listen to teachers.

I think he will be in for a surprise when teachers don't show up to do the grunt work in 2012.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. understanding education in the city of chicago might help
if you actually want to understand why he and arne think like they do.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I always like to post this link when people want to understand Duncan and the Chicago schools
I think it is the single best link to quickly get a background.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/26/a_look_at_arne_duncans_vip

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Buddy, if that's not an eye opener. The well-connected seem to have a special place in this WH. nt
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. i dunno. the article is mostly a refutation of the headline
in the end only a handful of students that were advocated for got accepted, and most had their records checked and were not even considered for action. the whole point of the list was to put the practice in the open. not something you would do if your motives were sinister.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. And don't forget the University of Chicago, which is Corporatist Propaganda Central.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. i think this remark is a little unfounded.
everyone there is not milton freidman. the science of education has been an important part of the university from day one. john dewey was the founder of the university lab school which is world renowned. their current curriculum in education is being tested in several chicago charter schools that are public, neighborhood charters open to all. they have chosen to open those schools in the worst neighborhoods, to work with the hardest to teach kids. and they are working miracles, imho.
they also have a great hospital that is cutting edge, and that also does a huge amount of free care.
please do not tar a great and huge organization about which you know only a few bad things.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. Those "few bad things" are quite deadly and have had horrible global repercussions.
Edited on Mon Aug-02-10 05:14 PM by glitch
Friedman would not be such an issue if so much of our recent domestic economic policy hadn't been based on it. Not to mention our foreign policy.

However, Arne Duncan doesn't need Milton Friedman's reputation as an excuse for his bad policy ideas, they are quite capable of failing on their own.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. That are a lot of cities and towns in the country that are
nothing like Chicago. And with all due respect, their schools aren't anything like Chicago's either. Perhaps he and Arne should take that into consideration and limit their plan to Chicago if that's why they're trying to privatize the school system. There is no way this can end but badly for the children.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Why not expand upon your thoughts as to what one needs to understand about education in Chicago?
I really don't think that what happened in Chicago under Duncan stands much scrutiny, but you appear to believe differently, so please explain. Otherwise you just made an empty statement implying that you know a lot more than the rest of us.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. imho, what mayor daley, supt duncan, and supt valles
before him, have done with the school system in chicago was nothing short of saving this city. it's a long story.

but i will reply now just to the link you posted.

first i will say this is my town. i love it ferociously. and yes, i love my mayor. that puts me in a small class of people that believe the best about people. :shrug: i have 5 kids, the youngest of which is a high school senior. between them i have navigated this system pretty extensively.

the reason that the list even exists has to do with the fact that there has been an explosion in choice in chicago schools.
my oldest is 34. at that time, with few exceptions, you went to the school where you lived, period. when she was in 1st grade i already knew she was an extremely smart kid. (not a brag, just a fact.) she tested at stanine 8+9. there were, iirc, 2 gifted elementary magnets in the whole city, and one high school. for those you had to be all 9s. there were also 2 classical schools, which took 8+9. i sent her to one of those, and she had 1 hour plus commute each way.
the purpose of these choices didn't really have much to do with education. they were part of a consent decree to desegregate the schools. the enrollment process was as serious as a heart attack.

in the 80's, the city was experiencing serious white flight. this is a complicated phenomena, but one of the core forces behind it was that anyone with means moved to the suburbs when the kids turned 5. in neighborhoods with a strong catholic parish, it was not so strong, as they had their own schools. other than that, people did indeed fly.
they left behind neighborhoods that rotted. several mayors before daley did their best to stop this, but it was daley who saw that it was the schools that were the motivation. now, there were many fine public schools. but for the most part, they were severely neglected. just a look at the physical shape of the buildings told you what you needed to know. leaking roofs, peeling paint and broken windows were common. schools were run by a 17 member board, pretty much all of which benefited financially from their position, selling the latest reading curriculum, paper towels, or frozen french fries. (sadly, the teachers union had fallen into the kind of adversarial stance that makes progress very difficult. they too were stuck in a rotting system. this did not help the situation.)
so, enter richard m daley. he went to springfield, argued that he had to be the one in charge of the schools, twisted arms (he is a former state legislator) and got control. iirc he tried to get proper funding, at which he failed. but capital funding is always a little easier to get, and he set about the business of repairing buildings and building additions as well as new schools. what he knew families wanted was choice.
although charter schools were starting to be pushed, they were a raygun plan and did not fly here. first there were expanded gifted offerings. these were the kids whose potential was enough to make their parents move. so, in addition to the one gifted high school, they added a math and science college prep selective enrollment high school in each of the city's 5 districts. there was a lot of outcry about the fact that the middle class neighborhoods got them first, but those were the people who were leaving, and to daley schools were about economic development first and foremost. these were followed by gifted elementary schools, which were selective enrollment, and a whole slew of programs that were offered in the bigger schools, which opened up their attendance boundaries. for instance, our neighborhood school is a school of international studies. there are math and science schools, language immersion schools, not enough arts schools. those with more demand than supply have lotteries. fairer than fair.
daley hit the nail on the head. parents wanted choices. not only did fewer families leave the city, the diocese of chicago schools have pretty much folded.

so, about that list.
i am sure i am in the majority here when i say that high stakes testing is just plain wrong. the selective enrollment schools do lean heavily on test scores, but do have a formula that includes other things, like grades, etc. (they did use attendance until this year. this turned out to have an economic factor. if you could take your kid to the doctor, you would have a medically excused absence. yeah, not fair.) a lot of the other types of schools had lotteries. because of the origin of this process as a federally overseen process, it is pretty hard to game the system. like i said, serious as a heart attack.
in part by design, and in part as a function of the fact that there are often a few empty seats in these schools, as kids are asked to apply to 3, there are a few seats that are at the discretion of the principle to fill. these spots are for kids who, for whatever reason, do not make the numerical target, but really need and deserve the spot. my own youngest kid got one of these seats. due to a clerical error her scores were too low, and she was rejected by all the schools that she applied to. the attendance clerk misplaced a decimal point, and instead of 4.5 days absent, she had 45. we figured this out one day before the deadline for acceptance. the principal at the local school was horrified, got on the phone, and got her accepted at her choice. this is exactly the sort of thing that these seats are intended for.
so, there are, of course, movers and shakers who would like to try to help a kid and get them into those seats. and i mean that part sincerely, that they are trying to help a kid. in order to try to keep influence out of the process, these people have to go through the superintendents office. that is why the list is there. now, if this was a case of arne helping his buddies kids, he wouldn't need a list and would be a fool to create one. the list was there to keep it open and above board. and the process of making them go through arne's office was to take the pressure off the principals. the story that you link to, where the existence of the list made such a splash, failed to follow up by checking how many of those kids got where they wanted to go. the answer, it turns out, is a few. but you know the old saying of the lie traveling around the world while the truth is still getting it's boots on.

and just a disclaimer here. i am a long time chicagoan. i am a parent in the chicago system. i pay attention to these things, i care about this system. i spent time on parent boards. my kids have been in all parts of the system, including a special needs kid who went to a contract school. that is all i claim. this is all my opinion, and how things look to me. people are free to check my facts. i wish i had time to really document this whole situation. i really, really wish i had time to do a photo essay of the new schools and libraries that have been built under daley, as well as a lot of other things he has done. lots of people hate him. i love him. he has done a superb job of growing and improving a city that was starting to circle the drain when he took over. even now, although we are scrimping and saving here, we are in much better shape than a whole lot of places in this country. because we do things the democratic way. in spite of what you might here to the contrary. unfortunately, a well run city is a crappy headline.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. i'm sorry i was cranky last night.
i didn't mean what it looked like i meant. i just get a little cranky being arne duncan's only friend sometimes.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. My God I hate him so much
I am fully ignorant of the scene, except my education friends all hate him..

Perhaps there is something good to Obama putting him where he is..

I will bookmark this thread to read the links..
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. it is a tough situation. lots of things happening because of
the economy are being blamed on arne, imho.
i can see how people see him through the lens they see him through. but i just don't. i see a man, like i see obama, with a pure heart who wants to do what they think needs to be done. by a lot of measures what they did here worked, although i know it didn't work for everyone. it mostly has been working for the kids, again, imho.
it isn't the government taking money away from schools, it is parents taking their kids, and the dollars that are attached to them, away from the schools. i think this is where the decision should reside. that is what the whole plan is about. choice for parents. this has certainly been the shield for many an atrocity in public education policy, but i think here it is the real deal. or at least as close as us stupid humans can make it.

watch the video, make up your own mind.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. thanks for the reply..
peace and low stress..

:~)
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Crazy Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. They've seen the light from how much tuition costs at universities
Edited on Sun Aug-01-10 08:02 PM by Crazy Dave
They'll want to privatize education and make the parents pay for it.

You forgot privatizing social security into individual retirement accounts. If there's a second Obama term you can almost bet on it. That's the big and not so secret agenda of the "National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform".
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. "Interesting" is one way to put it.
Not what first comes to mind, but...

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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. Corporations are getting a pony.
I guess we get the horseapples.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Yes, they get all the ponies. nt
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. I've got enough horseapples for us all.
And I'm supposed to be out shoveling them right now.

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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. Whatever serves the masters' purposes shall be the underlying principle. nt
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R!
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
16. k & r n/t
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 05:20 AM
Response to Original message
17. K and R
Enthusiastically!!
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
20. Well said. K&R
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
23. Interesting in a hypocritical, "gawd you people are so stupid you'll buy any shit we shovel at you"
kind of way.:eyes:
:kick: & R & :thumbsup:

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Spheric Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
24. K&R /nt
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
25. Indeed. Plus there was the wail of "but what about all those insurance JOBS!!!"
despite the fact that America loses MILLIONS of jobs every year due to the high cost of health care. One of my own corporate clients just built a division in Canada where the workers are paid as much as those in the US, but it costs the corporation over 20% less because they aren't paying health insurance costs-and the workers have far better health care! To top it off, the ones who wail about the poor health insurance workers condemn the thousands of underpaid teachers as "greedy" and "bad at their jobs." The double standards and hypocrisy never cease to astound.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. A truthful wail would have been "but what about all those insurance campaign dollars!"
Even more important now with Citizens United.

We'll get the politicians and laws we are allowed to have by the corporatists and their dollars.
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
28. Well played by special interests - Thanks PL for stating the obvious. nt
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
29. K&R
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
31. r
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
33. my new fb status
HEALTHCARE an entrenched "uniquely American" private delivery system that must be preserved and not socialized in any way because Americans are too used to it and could never withstand the change. EDUCATION an entrenched American public delivery system that should be privatized immediately and Americans against it are just resistant to change, too darn bad.
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