Reinventing the Crusades

[NeedleCast]

...because they worked so well the first time.

This non-issue over the proposed lower Mannhatten Islamic Center (it's not an F'ing mosque!) is just a continuation of a centuries old war. The tools of war are different. There are no more knights in armor on impressive war horses. No more swarthy dervishes with watered steel swords...but it's still the same thing.

From my (athiest) standpoint, I'm always the loser in these conflicts but that's pretty much beside the point. The conservatives ceeded vast amounts of power to the religious right about three decades ago and now they're so entertwined that they can't be seperated from each other. This "issue" is nothing but a whipping point to spin up right wing vigor for the mid-terms. That's it and that's all. From a political standpoint it has nothing - NOTHING - to do with religion and everything to do with making sure that all them-thar fundie Xstians are frothy enough to get to the polls in November.

Any liberal who is siding with those opposing the Islamic center need to seriously re-think who they're crawling in bed with. I'm all for a good sport fuck but waking up in the morning with Sarah Palin in my bed would not make me happy. The conservative pundits are pushing this because (most of them) are smart enough to know that this is the kind of knee-jerk issue that will increase voter turn out. If that's who you want to stand with, then you're decidedly standing with the wrong team on this (non)-issue.

[uppityperson]

1. Educate people

edited to remove link since it has been pointed out that it was a bigotted one. My apologies. I liked the part that one's religion is not separate from one's life, ie not just going to church once a week and praying there, but having religion and life go hand in hand. I have had discussions about religion with people for over 40 yrs and came to the conclusion a long time ago that "true" religion is a set of guidelines by which you live your life, vs most organized religions which are meant to keep the masses under control.

At any rate, my apologies for posting this, didn't read the links on the page.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8875439&mesg_id=8877992

[NeedleCast]

2. Many Muslims I know would strongly disagree with your first link

This part in particular:

"A mosque, totally unlike a church or a synagogue, serves the function of orchestrating and mandating every aspect of “life” in a Muslim community from the religious, to the political, to the economic, to the social, to the military. In Islam, religion and life are not separate. They are indivisible. In Islam religion is not just a part of life, but “life” is absorbed and regulated to the tiniest detail by religion (See Figure 1). In other words every aspect of a man or woman’s life must be defined and governed by religion"

[uppityperson]

3. The part about the mosque or the part about religion & life not being separate?

I am trying to learn, and trying to pass on what I find, hoping information may somewhere help counter emotionalistic stuff.

[NeedleCast]

6. The entire article is a slam

The person being interviewed is obviously a bigot with no understanding of Islam beyond the typical Palin-ized view held by many ignorant Westerners. I can't believe any thinking individual would take it seriously. It broad-brushes all of Islam as a bunch of radical fundamentalists. The Xstain version would be to compare all Christians to the Phelps clan.

Just looking at the blog-roll associated with this site, it should be easy to determine just how biased it is. I'm hoping no one would thing this list of sites

Islam monitor
Islamization Watch
Islamo nazism
JIHAD WATCH

Have a balanced view on Islam.

[uppityperson]

8. In which case I apologize for posting it. I am trying to search out info,

I hope you know me enough by now to know this.

[NeedleCast]

10. The blog it's from - Vlad Tepes - is a bunch of right-wing goo anyway

Not a very good source to get a fair view on Islam.

Just like any religion (and as an athiest, I think that all religions are illogical, although I think there are certainly degrees to it), Islam has everything from individuals who are near non-practicing (Muslim in Name Only) to it's extreme fundamentalists. A good (Iranian) friend of mine was over at my house this past weekend eating grilled short ribs...says about how much he cares about the rules of the faith.

For a good, neutral view, I think this is a good website:

http://www.islamicity.com/education/understandingislamandmuslims/

While I may be an athiest, I'm fascinated by religion and I think there are some beautiful things associated with Islam. Having spent time in Afghanistand and Egypt, I've found some Muslims to be some of the most welcoming, interesting, humble people on the planet. And some of them like to blow you up because you're not one. So, it's a broad range, hehe.

[uppityperson]

13. Thank you. Organized religions bother me. Am trying to figure out how to explain what a mosque is &

isn't. The term "mosque" is scary to some, trying to figure out how to appeal to rationality vs emotionality.

Organized religions bother me since it seems to me it should be all personal. How you are, what you do, etc etc. You can find help, guidance, "truth" many places. Getting together with others who have the same values can be a decent support system and you can sometimes get more done as a group. But the controlling aspect, the "go to church on sunday and spend the rest of the week being an asshole" aspect of many bothers me a lot.

Secular humanist here.

[NeedleCast]

15. What You Said is What Started My Questioning of Faith

Being raised Southern Babptist (a fairly sane church as far as the SBC goes, but still), I saw many of my peers and friends who acted like angles and denounced all sorts of sinful behavior (drinking, sex, etc) on Sunday only to spend all night Friday partying and screwing. The same people that were telling me I was going to hell for listening to Slayer were out grinding to N'Sync at the clubs the next day. That was sort of my "wait a minute..." moment.

Most Xstains I know don't resembled the Christians of the bible (old or new testament) in any way.

One of my favorite things to point out to monothieastic people of organized religions as that they are ALMOST as atheist as I am. Of thousands of world religions (including dead and obscure religions), they think all but one is false. I think all of them are.

[uppityperson]

16. I've a book for you, simplistic but still

"mister god this is anna".

It is a small book, fiction based as "true story" about a young girl and her look at religion. For instance, why do you have to keep going back to church unless you can't understand? It is simplistic and annoying in places, but an interesting take on the whole religion vs faith, being vs belonging sort of thing.

[NeedleCast]

17. Thanks, I'll add it to my list

[NeedleCast]

18. Thanks, I'll add it to my list

[jtuck004]

4. Sounds like Southern Baptists.

Grew up with that. Mom sent a note to school that I was not to dance, they want to control your life in a lot of ways outside the church. Being Americanized probably has a lot to do with lessening that grasp over time, I suspect.

Put that behind me when I began to really read history, but those hooks are deep.

[NeedleCast]

7. But Souther Baptists (I was brought up one) don't define Christianity as a whole

any more than radical Muslims define Islam as a whole.

[jtuck004]

9. Oh, I know. I was just thinking of the similarities.

Went to an open house at the Islamic center near our home the other day. I asked my wife to cover her head out of respect, and we sat near the front row to hear a guy in the Army speak about his Muslim faith. He was stressing the differences between radical Islam and the Muslim religion, (though he never used the word radical).

And I went in thinking that they should do a LOT more of this, but as I looked around the room and listed to the (primarily white woman) who were present, they were the most close-minded bunch I had heard from in a long time. The women from the center were sitting in the back, and a couple of the visitors just couldn't help but keep slamming "the religion" for putting them there. These gals explained that although they could sit in the front, they preferred to sit together with the kids out of the action, so to speak, but they kept saying they disproved of them sitting in the back. Lots of head-shaking and disapproving looks.

Don't know how much good this does until a window opens in someone's mind that allows them to challenge their preconceived notions, though they should keep trying.

[JCMach1]

19. Sounds like the definition of 'church' here in the bible belt

[damntexdem]

11. This is irrelevant to the question at hand.

The issue is religious freedom, not whether one agrees with the religious practices. The only need for "educating people" with regards to this issue is in how to preserve religious freedom.

[uppityperson]

14. I agree that religious freedom it the issue, also Fear and Loathing

I know that fighting bigotry with rationality is a losing battle, but also think learning is a good thing. I have been told that this building is a mosque because there is a prayer room in it, and that it isn't a mosque because that part is only a tiny fraction. If people are going to fight over the term "mosque", it seems that knowing what that means is a good thing.

[sui generis]

5. ironically we killed anyone dressed in the garb of the region

and that included plenty of christians who merely "looked" like the infidel.

Actually - the "first" crusade was against a European infidel - the Stedinger Crusade of Germany, which had more to do with denying tax free guarantee to the enterpreneurial northern Germans who cleared out and reclaimed tidal marsh into successful arable land. One of their principles was that practicing religion should be an individual choice, and fealty was owed to no king or pope. Their community was gruesomely and violently destroyed by the local military and a multi-country ragtag band of papal "crusaders" as a dry run for crusades in the holy land.

The major crime was not being heathen, but demanding that the district of Hannover honor its tax free status granted in exchange for reclaiming the farmland from the sea, in addition to defying papal authority.

[damntexdem]

12. And it still happens in Israel/Palestine, with Palestinian Christians.