This is sickening. Teenage runaway arrested, handcuffed, shackled, humiliated..

[Webster Green]

I'm beyond pissed at the way this girl is being treated. She obviously has some issues to work out, but this is outrageous!

If you can stomach it, go to the link below to see how horrible she is being treated. It's a local TV (NBC affiliate) website in Ohio . They have video and still images on the site to continue with her humiliation. She's a minor. Why are they allowed to use her image like this? I though there was some protection against shit like this.

NORWALK -- Abbi Obermiller, a 17-year-old high school honor student missing for three weeks, was found safe at 3:30 a.m. today, hiding in an apartment recently rented by her boyfriend. She appeared in juvenile court around noon Wednesday.

After a brief hearing in Huron County Juvenile Court before Judge Timothy Cardwell, the judge ordered that she be held in juvenile detention until her next hearing, which has yet to be scheduled.

"I guess we been without her this long, a few more days we can handle it, and thanks to God she is where she is," said her grandfather, Ron Grosswiler.

Obermiller, who appeared before Cardwell in shackles, told him, "I just want to go home. I'm not going to go anywhere. You can put me under house arrest. I just want my Mom and Dad."

:wtf:

http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_article.aspx?storyid=138771&obref=obinsite

On edit: It's a month old, but I'm still pissed!

[evirus]

1. i fail to see anything outrageous

im sorry but this looks like pretty standard procedural stuff with the "shackles".

[Webster Green]

2. No shit? For a minor?

Jeezus!

[evirus]

3. we aren't talking about toddlers here

[Webster Green]

7. I think using those images of her on the news is wrong.

Horribly wrong.

[Coyote_Bandit]

8. Age

- and thus status as a minor - doesn't have anything to do with the physical capabilities of someone who is in custody. Seventeen year olds generally have pretty similar physical capabilities as their young adult counterparts. That includes the ability to escape, to become physically violent or self-destructive.

Save your outrage for a six year old in shackles.

[Webster Green]

11. I guess so.

Fuck it...humiliate her on TV, and throw her in a cage.

[evirus]

13. i don't feel she is being humiliated

i mean its not like shes being dragged around, or put in full-on hannibal lecter restraints.

[YOY]

10. Yay Police State!!!

We need protection!!! So much that we are willing to sacrifice our rights for it!!!

Yay!!!

[pipi_k]

15. As far as I'm concerned, teenagers who run away from home

do not have any rights.

None.

See my post below on how I had my own daughter arrested. I did what I had to do, and if the police handcuffed or shackled her, then that's what they did, and it's an experience she would likely not have wanted to repeat by running away a fourth time.

[YOY]

16. That's your child and I'm sorry you had to go through with that. My kid does indeed have rights.

n.t.

[pipi_k]

18. Has he/she ever run away from home?

I honestly hope you never have to go through not knowing where your kid is for weeks.

It's easy to say "My kid has rights" when you know pretty much where your kid is every day and that he/she is OK.

It's quite another when you don't even know if your kid is dead or alive and you don't want to be put through that hell again.


And it's got nothing to do with your first post ranting about a "police state".

[YOY]

22. No. We'll deal with it if we do. It's got everything to do with a "police state"

If you find such treatment to be satisfactory than that is your perogative.

And look. I'm not trying to call you a "bad parent" but were your daughters actions at all a partial byproduct of a few of your failure? Just in part?

Obviously you took responsibility for treatment and whatnot.

[pipi_k]

28. Your children must be rather young still...

One of the odd things about parenthood is that, no matter how "good" a parent you think you were, the kids will grow up and think of something to blame you for.

I already know I wasn't a great parent.

There was also her father, though. He was NOT a good father, disappearing for weeks and months at a time, never calling the kids, and they would cry, thinking he had died or something. Then he would appear out of the blue, be in their lives for a while, and then vanish again. Strangely, he always insisted he was a great father. Denial. He just couldn't, or didn't want to, see how the things he did hurt his kids.

In any event, I'm not saying children, under normal circumstances, have no rights.

I am saying that kids who run away from home don't have any rights other than the ones given to them by parents and police. They get basic human rights, and that's it. Anything else they have to earn. Nothing in life is free...

[YOY]

I'm not a family values type...but I do insist that in many cases 2 positive role models are vital.

Be that a "mother" and "father" figure (no gender needed to be attached) or a grandparent helping the single parent.

It sounds like the girls father did not do the "paternal" thing and show your daughter what and how a mate is supposed to act and how to treat her in addition how to recognize a bad partner and to avoid them.

I've seen single mothers do great but they really earn it. Simply put 4 eyes are better than 2. Hell 6 or 8 eyes are better than 4 too.

Look, I don't want some runaway kid treated like a skel who just robbed a jewelry store. Plain and simple. If my daughter gets caught smoking weed behind 7-11, I don't want her cuffed and thrown in juvie. It's like treating a guy with a small amount of marijuana like Pablo Escobar and raiding his home, shooting his dog, terrifying his family and cuffing him to the floor as his children watch all on "reasonable suspicion." The police take the "Patriot Act" (yes well before your case) and run with it.

I've already had friends who were blatant recipients of this crap. (And no...not sketchy "friends" at all.)

[CreekDog]

140. i think the shackles are excessive for someone who is not a danger to anyone

and reading your posts, it seems like your experience is biasing you in favor of rough or unnecessarily harsh treatment of runaways.

the fact that such treatment will stop some teenagers from wanting to do it again does not make it right treatment --though i think i can see why you defend it --again, that you defend it doesn't make it right.

[1monster]

43. She's seventeen. In a few months she will be legal. Runaways have no rights?

I think anyone who has that kind of attitude probably is one that a child who is just short of his/her majority might just want to run away from. We know nothing about what went on in the family.

I know that from age eleven until I did leave at age eighteen, I wanted nothing more than to leave my parents' home and with good reason, but since my father had strong ties with police, I waited until I could do it legally -- having been threatened with severe physical trauma if I ever did run. Most people thought my parents were terrific.

They had an attitude similar to the one you stated. Children have no rights whatsoever.

[pipi_k]

69. If she's still living in her parent's home and is still a minor, then

the only rights she has are the ones her parents give her, within the law.

As far as I'm concerned, anyway.

Food, clothing, medical care. That's it.


They don't need to supply her with TV or a computer (unless it's required for school, then she does her homework and that's it). And cell phone? Please.

If she wants more rights than that, she can move out when she's 18, get a job, and then do whatever the hell she wants.

[1monster]

83. My parents were jerks and there was physical and emtional abuse. I'm 54 years

old and not a grudge holder, but I still want as little to do with them as I can.

Even so, I'm glad you were not my mother.

[pipi_k]

129. Your story is not unique...

my parents were emotional and physical abusers too...of us kids, and each other.

I'm 57

I came to a point some years ago where I could forgive them for not knowing how to be better parents.

They didn't intend to do what they did.

As much as you say you aren't a grudge holder, I don't agree with that statement, but whatever.

Hopefully there will come a time in your life, before your parents are both dead, when you can have SOME kind of relationship with them

[1monster]

165. As far as that goes, my mother is still emotionally abusive. I managed to

forgive as long as I had little to do with her. In the past three or four years, she has been calling me every week. I was nice to her even though she got her needles in every time I talked to her. Until, at one of the worst times in my life last November (a huge problem with a family member who is retarded), she got to me and I haven't talked to her since. I don't need the hassle, especially now.

I've never held with that old straw that "That's the way my parents raised me and I turned out alright." I'm by no means a perfect mother; there are many things that I wish I'd done differently. But my kids are not afraid of me and have been well thought of by others as polite, respectful kids.

[Occulus]

93. I am REALLY glad you're not my mom

and my mom threw me out for being gay.

[pipi_k]

112. I never kicked my kid out

for being gay and I would not have if they were.


There are people here who seem to think that their kids can act any old way they please and it's all good and they're going to run around kissing their kid's ass instead of laying down some boundaries and ground rules and sticking to them.

Let the kids run the house and see what happens.

[Occulus]

133. And WHOOSH goes the point n/t

[pipi_k]

145. Well, why don't you explain the point, since I so sadly missed it...

[Odin2005]

161. No, I think teens should be treated as the YOUNG ADULTS they are.

You are engaging is black and white thinking, there is a middle ground between your authoritarianism and "kids given the run of the house". A YOUNG ADULT near the age of majority should not have as much parental restrictions on their behavior as a 7yo CHILD. (Teens should NEVER be called "children").

[laughingliberal]

110. Yep. Sounds like the people who raised me. Fed me and watered me & figured their job was done.

Add in a little emotional & physical abuse and the result is a lifetime of struggling to afford therapy bills and unrelenting PTSD. Great plan you have there.

[pipi_k]

123. Did I say anything about ABUSE???

Kids have to earn privileges like having a computer or cell phone.

All kids have the right to food, water, medical care AND a loving home. I never said they didn't...or, at least, if that's what you understood, I'm sorry that's what you thought.

But I'll be damned if some kid who is living in my home and acting out with bad behavior or running away is going to think he'll treat me like shit.

[laughingliberal]

134. Lol! My parents never SAID anything about abuse, either.

They did, however, SAY a lot of 'as long as you're living under THIS roof...

and I'm wondering if loving parents would refer to their child as 'some kid.'

[pipi_k]

146. So your parents had rules and told you

"as long as you're under my roof...."

what awful horrible rules did they inflict on you?


And the "some kid"?

that includes ANY kid. Mine or not.



I'm truly sorry for any pain you may have suffered as a child, but I didn't do it.

Don't equate me, someone you don't even know, with your parents.

Thanks.

[msanthrope]

115. Sorry, but your children have rights that have nothing to do with you 'giving' them.

Fuck. I don't take juvvie clients anymore because of their nauseating parents.

Your attitude isn't far off from theirs.

[pipi_k]

119. Whatever you say n/t

[laughingliberal]

135. +1000 nt

[lolly]

156. Really?

No right to be safe in her own home? No right to a decent home environment?

Hardly the same as cell phones and TVs.

I knew a girl in jr. high who was supposedly a chronic runaway. Her father abused her mother and beat her for any and all infractions, while letting her brothers do whatever they wanted. On one occasion when he reported her as a runaway she was actually in her own backyard, afraid to come in the house because she was late for curfew, and didn't want to face the whipping she would get.

He was also an editor for the local newspaper--everybody thought he was Mr. Upstanding, and when the paper did a feature article on teenage runaways, he was their main source. He made out like an oh-so-concerned parent--the victim in the whole affair, who had tried everything he could to help his daughter, but still couldn't understand what made her do such a terrible thing.

[Odin2005]

160. What a disgusting, cruel, authoritarian attitude.

This is a 17yo we are talking here NOT a 7 year old. a 17yo is an adult biologically and mentally.

Oh, and I cringe whenever I hear a teen called a "child", especially by types like you.

[EFerrari]

85. All human beings have rights.

[pipi_k]

125. OK, I just realized we're talking about two different things here...

rights vs privileges.

All human beings have rights.

Not all of them deserve privileges. Certainly not teenagers who think they can run the house, or act out, or otherwise cause chaos in the home.

Hopefully this will clear things up...

[msanthrope]

128. Your kid was molested...I think she earned the right to 'act out.'

From your posts, you tell us that the child's father was traumatizing with his disappearances, she was molested, going through a trial, and her stepfather was dying.

All at once.

And you apparently have a panic disorder.

So my question to you is "why did it take your daughter running away to get her serious treatment?"

Seriously, props to your daughter for surviving that hellhole.

Why did she get returned to you? Probably for the same reason most kids get returned...the system can only take so much. I've watched clients get returned to parents who beat the crap out of them, because social services doesn't give a flying fuck about children, their mission is to reunite families.

Oh, and dear sweet Jeebus, I can only hope that you fully appreciate the irony of having Seabeyond be the one to defend your actions with your daughter....holy crap....

[Mariana]

138. Nope. All that is no excuse whatsoever for her behavior.

:sarcasm:


Gawd, it's making me sick to read this. I have a teenage daughter who hasn't been traumatized in any way, and I can't imagine talking about her like this:

"But I'll be damned if some kid who is living in my home and acting out with bad behavior or running away is going to think he'll treat me like shit."

But knowing a kid has gone through hell for years and talking that way...

[pipi_k]

142. I wasn't referring to MY daughter under the circumstances she had to deal with

And I regret that you took it that way.


I was talking about a kid acting like a brat when there's no reason for it other than he or she is spoiled rotten.


There ARE kids who think they can run the house, mainly because their parents let them. Those are the kids I meant.

[pipi_k]

139. Why did it take so long

for her to get serious treatment?


For one thing, even though the incidents of molestation had happened a few years earlier there was no really unusual behavior on her part except for the one time we were visiting my sister and my BIL wanted to take her to the store with him and she very quickly said, "NO". This in itself was unusual, because she loved everyone and had no trouble going places with anyone else in the family. That was the first clue, and it wasn't long afterward when I found out what had happened. I made sure she never had contact with him again, and it was a couple of years later that law enforcement got involved. Even that didn't trigger her running away. It only happened AFTER the whole thing exploded in our faces, my family dumped us, and my ex husband was dying from cancer.


Do you actually think a family can go much beyond just trying to survive from day to day when there's that much shit going on?

When she started seeing a therapist after her treatment, the therapist copped some serious attitude with me...much like yours, but when she found out everything that was going on, she actually apologized to me.

There was absolutely nobody in the system who wasn't kind and compassionate to both of us.

And these people had a more complete file of information than you do now.

Your attitude is much like that of some long-time cops I know who have, they claim, seen the "scum of the streets" and end up bringing that attitude with them everywhere they go. In their minds, everybody is a scum. Oh, unless they've mainly worked with a narrow group of people...people of a certain race or color or culture. Then it's only "them" who are scum. And they feel just as justified to judge anyone they meet based purely on the people they've dealt with in the past.

Don't even give me shit about foster homes. A couple of my in-laws had been foster parents for a long time before the wife got a brain tumor and couldn't do it anymore.

My child was returned to me because I wanted her back, and there was NO evidence that she was being mistreated, by myself, or anyone else in my home. The foster home she stayed at was not overcrowded. There was only one other kid besides herself. She could have stayed as long as she wanted to...or as long as I wanted her to.

The kids my in-laws were dealing with were placed there as a last resort because their parents didn't want them anymore. And when they turned 18, the kids were kicked out to fend for themselves.


People I dealt with on a personal level during that time were kind and compassionate.


You read a handful of posts on an internet discussion board and all of a sudden decide you have a right to judge me.

How very...professional.

:eyes:

[msanthrope]

153. Wait a minute. Are you saying you found out what happened, but didn't call the cops?

It was only years later, that the cops got involved? What the heck do you think was happening to your daughter during that time??? She forgot?????

"That was the first clue, and it wasn't long afterward when I found out what had happened. I made sure she never had contact with him again, and it was a couple of years later that law enforcement got involved. Even that didn't trigger her running away. It only happened AFTER the whole thing exploded in our faces, my family dumped us, and my ex husband was dying from cancer."


I am sure that every single person you came into contact with you took the measure of the situation, and realized that kind treatment of you would benefit your daughter. Realized that you would regain custody of your daughter and that you were best handled with kid gloves.

I've done that to parents of my juvvie clients. When you get a mother who thinks she's a victim, she's best smothered in sympathy, lest she have an attack of the nerves.

Seriously, I am glad your daughter benefited from professionals who knew how to avoid tripping your panic disorder and kept you from making it even worse.

[Mariana]

175. It's not just the call to the cops that's missing from this story.

Although I do have to wonder how many other children were abused by this uncle during the time that the police were NOT being made aware of his crimes. I'm also curious as to how law enforcement eventually did come to be involved, a couple of years later.

There's no mention of any therapy or counseling for the molested child until years later, AFTER her life had completely turned to shit and her mental state had deteriorated to the point that she was "suicidal, confused, and very depressed".

[msanthrope]

176. Apparently, other shit was going on.

So it sounds like the daughter, lacking a single parent who would call the cops and lock her molester up, just kinda made do until she couldn't anymore.

[laughingliberal]

136. There is generally a reason if a teenager is acting out and causing chaos in the home. nt

[asdjrocky]

67. +1

It's the law and order crowd.

[Jim__]

14. I agree, "standard procedure." Unfortunately, standard procedure for the "justice" system in ...

... country is humiliation, shackling, brutalization, etc. "Standard procedure" does not mean it's right.

[evirus]

17. what humiliation? what brutalization?

just because you don't like the image of someone in fairly light restraints doesn't mean their being humiliated to any extent grater than one being stopped by a police office on the highway.

[Jim__]

25. A perp walk is intended to be humiliating. Being marched in front of TV cameras in shackles ...

... is humiliating. As to brutalization, in almost any jail cell in the US, prisoners are brutalized - it's even celebrated on our sitcoms - you know, prison rape, always great for a laugh.

[slampoet]

34. The outrage is that she is white and female.

As for me cops have been treating me this way for ALL MY LIFE.

[avaistheone1]

70. Not true.

It is outrageous for ANYONE to be treated this way, especially a nonviolent young person. Dang! she probably weighs less than 100lbs soaking wet.

The police in this country are shameful. They really have gotten bad.

[slampoet]

78. And as a 6'2" male with a large build i am treated this way all the time.

because people see being little as being no threat.

I highly doubt you were out there defending me 20 years ago.

[1monster]

40. Leg shackles for a runaway?! Standard porcedure? I've never seen that before.

Around here, it is usually just handcuffs behind the back for an arrest. Leg shackles only come in after processing at the jail and when transporting inmates from the jail to the court and back.

[laughingliberal]

111. Hell, when I was picked up as a runaway 38 years ago, they didn't even cuff me...

and I had a 1/2 pound of an illegal substance in the glove box.

[okieinpain]

132. i agree. her family, neighborhood, and police put time and sweat

into looking for her.

[stray cat]

4. Why not just leave her on the streets - hopefully her boyfriend will help her out

unless she broke a law - then she is where she should be.

[evirus]

6. quote from the article

"Cardwell said she is being held on juvenile charges of delinquency and obstruction of official business. The obstruction charge is because she hid when police were searching the house for her."

[seabeyond]

5. ya, shackles were stupid. at least they handcuffed her in front so if she went down

with the shackles trying to walk with flip flops, she could protect face.

otherwise, i see nothing

[Webster Green]

9. You see nothing wrong with humiliating her like that?

Flashing images and video of her perp-walk on the website? Looks like she robbed a fucking bank or something.

It's disgusting.

[pipi_k]

21. I would bet that images of her doing the "perp walk"

are way less humiliating than whatever images of herself she likely has on some of the social networking sites like FaceBook, etc.





ETA:

I actually did a FaceBook search for her. Unless there's a whole bunch of 17 year old Abbi Obermillers out there, I would say the one I found is probably the right one.

Oh...and yeah...REAL dignified profile photo she's got... Too bad the rest of her page isn't visible. Sure would be interesting to see how highly she values her image.

:eyes:

[Goblinmonger]

89. You think that Facebook picture is bad?

Seriously? I was expecting some illegal drugs or something really skanky or something, but you really need to loosen the sphincter if that picture is a problem for you. Looks like a couple girls just being silly.

Wow.

[pipi_k]

109. No, I don't think it's bad...

but it's not very dignified, is it?

Typical teenager stuff.

[msanthrope]

118. Snarking on a 17 year old? Tells me all I need to know

about your attitude towards children....

[pipi_k]

126. Children? She's 17 for pete's sake...not five!

I was 17 once myself.

And you know what? Just like nearly every other 17 year old, I was foolish, self-centered, irresponsible, and a pain in the ass.

I'm sorry if you disagree, but most of the 17 year olds I have known, or know now, are silly little brainless twits.

[msanthrope]

130. How old are you? That's the point. Age has not brought wisdom. n/t

[pipi_k]

143. You know what sucks?

One liners.

Jabs with no substance behind them.

"How old are you?...Age has not brought wisdom"

OK. Don't bother explaining what you mean...just keep throwing little jabs out.

Feel better now?

[msanthrope]

152. Do you really need explanation?

Is it not self-evident that a woman with a grown child should perhaps find better things to do with her time than troll Facebook for embarassing pics of a 17 year-old you don't even know to prove a cheap point on the Internet?

And, has it not occured to you that your willingness to engage in such behavior--over a 17 year old you don't know--bespeaks an unflattering lack of judgment on your part?

Good parents have compassion for the young.

[Odin2005]

162. In most societies older teens are considered adults, not "brainless twits".

Older teens are considered "brainless twits" in our society because teen "impulsive risk-taking behavior" is seen as a problem to be "fixed" instead of a natural part of the human life cycle that is just as necessary and useful to society as the wisdom of older adults.

[Mariana]

171. I don't really know why older teens are considered to be

"brainless twits" by so many people in our society. I haven't found that to be true of most of them that I've met.

I do think that many adults in our society simply do not like or respect young people at all, including their own children. They'll jump right on any example of immature behavior by a teen, no matter how minor, as an excuse to justify their contempt.

[Odin2005]

178. It's a constantly reinforced cultural stereotype based on...

...popular assertions and exaggerations about Gen-Xers and younger Boomers when they were teens. The concept of "teen rebellion" is a good example of this mindset at work.

[ohheckyeah]

166. What's wrong with her picture?

It looks like a couple of teenagers goofing around.

[Mariana]

169. Nothing whatsoever is wrong with that picture.

We have a couple of very similar pictures of my daughter and my stepdaughter goofing off together. One is on my stepdaughter's Facebook page.

We enjoy looking at them because the girls are were so obviously just having the grandest time together when the pictures were taken. We LIKE to look at pictures of our kids being happy. We smile when we look at them.

[seabeyond]

24. it would make me mad if my child. with all they are experiencing, to then

have this ebarrassment. BUT.... there are repercussions of choices and good for her to know the repercussion of breaking the law. in the scheme of things, it is a minor embarrassment to future poor choices. lesson learned.

that is how i would address with my kids. kinda a hard ass with kids making such poor choices puts themselves in a position like this. it would be way more important for me that they get something out of it that might deter future stupid choices.

[pipi_k]

30. Exactly...consequences!

A perp walk in handcuffs is a pretty concrete lesson...

and a whole lot less painful than finding oneself actually IN prison...or lying dead in a gutter or field someplace.

[EFerrari]

88. Putting young people in jail for making a bad choice is not a teaching strategy.

It's a power grab. Anyone with the power to hurt you could say the same thing. "If seabeyond didn't want me to hit her, she should have made a better choice" -- that sounds pretty bad, doesn't it?

The young lady didn't rob a bank. She isn't a criminal. And you don't know if the embarrassment was minor for her.

I can't believe what I read on this board sometimes.

[seabeyond]

95. as i said

i am pretty much a hard ass as a parent with the expectation that my kids will experience consequences to their actions. be it good. be it bad. depending on their choices, it is all theirs to experience. i have no control over them. they are individuals that make the choice. if choices are good choices, they get to experience reward. if choices are bad, they get to experience repercussions.

what is the lesson in that experience. at the least, gain something positive, from even a bad.

works for us.

i have watched too many kids not have to experience repercussions for actions and choices. and i see way more harm in that, than being handcuffed.

we have been on threads where i have absolutely been with you on police abuse.

i dont see this as police abuse.

though again, shackles are ridiculous. in flip flops

on edit... btw, i have told my boys if they are arrested, dont call me to bail out. i wont do it. we have our boundaries. i have made mine clear.

[pipi_k]

98. this is one of the most important things about being a parent...

making your position, and your boundaries, clear.

So that the kids know exactly where they stand.

When my father lived with us, we knew. He made it clear.

After my parents divorced and we had to live with my mother, things changed...drastically.

We never knew from day to day where we stood.

One day we could do something and get away with it. Next day we'd be grounded for a month for what we did the day before. There were absolutely no boundaries and no consistency, and I wouldn't have minded her being a hardass like my father was as long as we always knew what to expect.

[seabeyond]

116. "kids know exactly where they stand."

boundaries and consistency. from the time they are little and though many think not, especially in teenage years.

[EFerrari]

106. That would be a fine strategy if Andy Taylor were the arresting officer.

Short of that, it doesn't sound like a good idea to me, not in this criminal justice system. No way.

[seabeyond]

114. and again, kids and i have talked about this from every angle. mistakes are no longer allowed.

accidents arent ok. just listen to the people on this board when there is an accident and the unforgiving attitude. string 'em up. bullshit like... there are no such things as accidents.

i tell the kids, better damn well be aware of the unforgiving world they live in today and again, factor that into their decision making choices. what i got away with in my day, they dont today.

i have always been open, honest, connected, talking talking talking and listening to these boys. we have about played all the scenerios to what ifs...

what if they have a bad teacher that doesnt do shit. better get their ass in gear and find a tutor or some other way to pass that class.

the teacher wont be effected, but the kids future will, so it is their respoensibility to make sure they are successfull. as i say, they get all the credit for the good they do, along with the credit for the wrong.

they have had a life time of not getting excuses or being a victim, but dealing with what comes their way (fair or unfair) and finding answers and solutions.

with the cushion of a safe and secure environment.

the best i can do for them as a parent.

[pipi_k]

127. Yeah? Well what's a good alternative, huh?

Tie the kid to a radiator? Nail all the windows shut?

See, people can pile on me all they want, but nobody seems able to come up with an acceptable alternative.

[laughingliberal]

113. Yes. I ran away, chronically, for years. Kept getting picked up. No one ever bothered to ask why...

I didn't want to live with my parents. Took almost 20 years before I finally told a therapist what had been happening to me.

[seabeyond]

124. and i am sorry you were raised in such an environment

that you didnt have the opportunities, safety and security that all children should be automatically afforded.

[lolly]

157. The whole "she broke the law" thing is ridiculous

Her real "crime" was being 17.

In a few months, she could walk out the front door, tell her parents to suck eggs, and no one could do a damn thing about it.

The whole idea of "criminalizing" running away from home is to protect the child. From things like being hurt and humiliated. It's a crime of status, not of violation.

If she robbed a store or drove drunk or destroyed something, then she is a criminal and deserves punishment. But a runaway is guilty of being too young to leave home.

[seabeyond]

158. i have seen the results of 14 and up runaway from home. it is a lot more involved than

what you suggest. all the way around.

[ohheckyeah]

167. I thought it was illegal for them

to show pictures and videos of minors who are arrested...as well as giving out the name of a minor in relation to an arrest.

[Mariana]

173. Maybe the parents signed a release.

If they did, there's probably jack she can do about it.

[ohheckyeah]

179. If they did, shame on them. n/t

[pipi_k]

12. I had my daughter arrested too

after she had run away for the third time with her goofy-ass boyfriend back in 1986.

The third time, a relative of the boy called to let me know she was bringing my daughter back home. When she got home, I called the police. For the first time in months I felt absolute peace because I KNEW where my daughter was spending the night.

Did they shackle or handcuff her? I didn't know, and I didn't care.

All of this was the result of her having been molested by her uncle some five or six years earlier. She was suicidal, confused, and very depressed.

We got her help...she went to a treatment facility, and then got outside therapy.


I think one would have to have been in the position of not knowing where one's child was for days and weeks on end in order to understand how NOT outrageous this is.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pipi_k]

31. Oh, really?

Well I suppose you'd feel a lot better if I had just ignored the whole thing...let my daughter run away as many times as she wanted to, maybe gotten pregnant at the age of 14, or ended up dead, and never have to deal with the molestation she suffered as a child.



Funny. I try to get help for my kid, and you call me "despicable". The only one in over 25 years who ever has...


That says a whole lot more about you than it does me.

[The Magistrate]

32. Yes, Ma'am, Really

You do not want to go into personal details on matters like this, particularly not with anyone who has personal experience of early and hostile departure from home. And stop waving the molestation around, as if that was some credential to your parenting skills: it is not.

Status offenses are a blemish on the law; it ought not have been possible for you to have an arrest effected, and you should have exercised better judgement than to take advantage of available injustice.

You were dead wrong.

[pipi_k]

41. I don't give a shit what you think

As I said, in the over 25 years since this happened, you are the ONLY one who has had the gall to question my decision.

You had better pray that you never find yourself in a similar situation, not knowing where your child is, whether she's OK, dead or alive...wanting to stay by the phone in case she calls but having to go to work each day, then driving around various neighborhoods at night looking to see if she might be walking the streets somewhere.

How easy it is for you to sit there and judge me when you weren't even there and know absolutely nothing about what was going on at the time.

Let me just say that in the course of that whole time, and for some time after, I was in contact with lots of people, from psychologists to court workers to police. Not one of them said I was "dead wrong".


If my actions enabled her to get the help she so clearly needed at the time, then you need to back off and dump your fake outrage on parents who don't even CARE about what happens to their kids.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. You obviously do give WAY more than "a shit".

And it shows.

[pipi_k]

49. Whatever you say..

I mean, you're obviously an expert on child rearing and all.

Must be quite a burden to know so much about what other people should do and why they did what they did.

[The Magistrate]

51. If No One Questioned Your Atrocious Incompetence, Ma'am, You Need To Meet a Better Class Of People

Clearly your daughter is a person of unusual forbearance: taking as fact the story you tell, and matching it to the fact you are alive to tell it, demonstrates this to a moral certainty.

You have no idea to what degree my experience and knowledge runs in matters of this sort, and can get little mileage out of recycling after-school special blurbs such as the above.

You screwed up, in a major, major way, one that very few people have an opportunity to match, let alone prove capable of matching.

Congratulations.

You win the biscuit....

[pipi_k]

57. It's really a hoot

when someone sets him or herself up as the "better class of people" that people like myself need to meet.


Dozens of law enforcement and medical personnel. All of them are, in your opinion, apparently, stupid and incompetent...as well as myself.

You, however, are the Knight in Shining Armor sent here to save us all.


You're right...I am worthless.

Kneeling and genuflecting to your superior morals and intelligence.

[The Magistrate]

59. Persons Employed By Authority, Ma'am, Tend To Approve Of Persons Resorting To Authority

You screwed up, in a major, major way. Best to admit it....

[pipi_k]

65. And this is borne out by what proof?

Please show me actual facts and data which says that "persons employed by authority
tend to approve of persons resorting to authority".


Oh, and what, in your opinion, should the parent(s) of a runaway child do to make sure their child is safe and gets the help he or she needs?


Lock the kid in her room? Put a collar and leash on her? Give her cookies and milk for "behaving"? Nothing at all?


How would YOU handle a kid who had run away three times, leaving you wondering if she were dead or alive?

[Hosnon]

66. I know you probably don't care,

but my respect for you has gone down considerably based on this one subthread (and I have held you in high regard for years).

Not only are you being unnecessarily aggressive, but you have utterly failed to try to explain your position to the other poster. And on top of that, you have insulted her entire family and every one of her friends.

All based on a few posts on a message board. Wow.

ETA: I would like to add that it appears that this is a deeply personal issue for you - so I should extend and think you deserve quite a bit of consideration regarding that. Please try to do the same for the poster.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

37. No, you didn't "try to get help for your kid".

You staged a humiliation ritual in order to get a "I'm All Righteous And Tough" buzz.

It is possible, albeit unlikely, that some time in the future you will have a moment of personal growth that will make you a better person. That moment will include a realization that the above statement is true.

[pipi_k]

42. Not only did I TRY to get help for my kid...

I DID get help for my kid.

And what I did, I did out of a sense of fear and desperation because I quite honestly did not know what else to do besides locking her in the house so I would know where she was.

Please do not humiliate yourself by claiming to know what was in my heart and mind at the time, or what my motives were.


And may I also say that in the intervening years, I did talk with my daughter about this incident, and I told her how sorry I was about it.

She doesn't hold any hard feelings, and in fact, she said she understands why I did it.


so, really...sit there and say it's not something you would ever do...that's fine.

But don't make a fool out of yourself by judging someone whose shoes you did not walk in.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

47. Yep... as I said, unlikely. -nt

[The Magistrate]

55. Part Of Your Problem, Ma'am, Is You Believe Being Told There Are No Hard Feelings

Rest assured there are serious hard feelings, feelings of betrayal and hurt. There is also the knowledge you cannot be trusted or communicated honestly with, and probably a measure of a decent person's reluctance to inflict pain without pressing need to do so; these things taken together shield you from exposure to her actual feelings concerning this matter.

[pipi_k]

61. Oh good lord...

now you're going to tell me what my daughter thinks, and how she feels???


Maybe you should stop projecting your feelings onto others, first of all.

If that's the way YOU would feel, then fine.

But do not even presume to know how someone else thinks or feels. That's what my daughter has told me and I believe her because she has never lied to me. This is not something she's in denial about. So unless you want to make yourself look even more foolish by insisting my daughter is a liar, then I suggest you back off.

[The Magistrate]

64. You Know, Ma'am, You Are Demonstrating The Likely Accuracy Of My Comments

The individuality of human responses is greatly over-rated. Any child put through what you put your daughter through would feel betrayed and angry, and have learned distrust, and to cover over true feelings when these might provoke further bad behavior from the parent. Children are pretty bright abot these sorts of things....

[pipi_k]

68. Speak for yourself, OK?

If you want to lump everyone together into one big pot of predictable responses, then that's your problem.

And the rest of the problem is that you appear to be wanting everyone else to feel exactly the same way you would.

Not going to happen.

[Mariana]

81. Why did you tell her you were sorry?

You say you believe what you did was correct and good, and you say almost everyone you've ever spoken to about it agrees with you. It seems rather strange that you told her you're sorry you did the right thing.

[pipi_k]

99. For the same reason

I told her I was sorry about not knowing sooner that her uncle had molested her, even though there was no way I could have known beforehand based on the persona he projected (Good Christian Family Man).

I told her how sorry I was that I taught them not to trust, or go with, strangers, and in the end it was a trusted family member who hurt her.

I took on a lot of guilt over that whole awful period of time, and I apologized for all of it, even though none of it was my fault.

I know a couple of people here must think that I was overjoyed and filled with glee to have my daughter arrested. I wasn't. It was one of the hardest things I ever had to do as a parent.

But I did apologize, and it's only because she's told me she was not (and is not now) angry with me that I can feel that I did the absolute right thing. If she is OK with it, then it's presumptuous of others to sit here in judgment of me now.

[1monster]

168. Why didn't she tell you? This isn't a criticism, just a genuine question.

Did she ever explain?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

33. +1

The fourth paragraph is the money quote. :wtf:

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

52. Your Assumption Of Ignorance, Ma'am, Is Charming....

[Hosnon]

54. I don't think it's appropriate for you to make such a judgment call based on reading one post online

Just sayin.

[The Magistrate]

58. My Interest, Sir, In Whether You Think My Comments Appropriate, Could Fit In the Navel Of a Flea

With room left over for lint, and the parenting skills of the person addressed.

[Hosnon]

60. Whether that defense ever applies on a public discussion forum is debatable.

And it's probably rarely persuasive.

But I still think you should try a bit harder to understand the poster's position before coming down so hard.

[woo me with science]

131. Your high opinion of yourself notwithstanding,

I agree with the poster who is gently telling you how rude you appear.

[blueamy66]

35. Do you know what goes on in juvie?

I do, cause I interned at one. Not the best place for kids.

A treatment center is a much better choice.

I just hope nothing "happened" to your kid in juvie.

[pipi_k]

48. She didn't spend any time in "juvie"

She spent one night in jail, then she was immediately taken to a foster home for about two weeks. I had contact with her during this time, and she said they treated her very well.

If investigations had shown that her home life was the problem, she would have spent more time in foster care, but after a few weeks she came home.


After she came home, we went to Juvenile Court together, and it was decided that she would need psychological counseling, so she spent six weeks in the Brattleboro Retreat in VT...where she also said they treated her well. We had a few family sessions there, then she came home, and she started seeing another psychologist.

No "Juvie" involved.

It was all quite civilized.

[Webster Green]

62. The treatment in my OP is certainly not civilized.

It's just cruel.

[pipi_k]

71. Well, that's your opinion, and you're free to have it. n/t

[Ignis]

91. No, it's the official stance of the United Nations, as well.

http://www.un.org/rights/dpi1765e.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child

[pipi_k]

117. Then why isn't the United Nations busy going after

police departments for handcuffing and shackling prisoners in this country?

Nobody waterboarded that girl. Or put her in thumb screws or put her to the rack or denied her food and water or tortured her in any other way.

To compare being handcuffed/shackled for a ride to the police station with some hideously outrageous human rights abuses is nothing but a mockery of those who have suffered those abuses.

[Ignis]

121. Sorry, I don't play with Strawmen.

Children have rights, and the UN is quite correct in calling out abuses of those rights in every country where they occur.

[pipi_k]

141. As I said someplace else, and which I'm sure you've probably missed...

It only occurred to me earlier in the afternoon that another person and I were talking about two different things...

rights vs privileges.


Even still, this was not a case for the United Nations, and I think that bringing the UN into it was rather silly.

[Ignis]

151. We ALL have a national/cultural bias.

That's why international standards are important. :think:

It's the same reason most people are unwilling to admit that their own nation can commit war crimes. It's always those other guys that torture or fire at crowds of civilians; Our Side would never do such things, so there must be some mistake...perhaps faulty evidence, or a media bias, or a corrupt court system, or blah blah blah.

Sorry for the tangential rant, but as a decades-long member of Amnesty International, I take these things more seriously than most. :shrug:

I do agree that citizens can lose privileges once incarcerated, but that never excuses even the most seemingly trivial human rights violation.

IMHO, and YMMV.

[Ignis]

86. WOAH...wait, wait, wait...they put your teen daughter in adult lockup?!

And you're happy with that?

:wow:

Have you ever been to an real jail? They are not happy, safe places.

[pipi_k]

100. Please don't assume to know what happened, OK?

They didn't put her in "adult lockup". And they didn't put her in anyplace called "Juvie Hall" with a bunch of other runaway kids.

She had a safe place well away from the adult population, overnight.

In a clean, modern police station.

And yes...I'm OK with that.

[Ignis]

120. Then it would behoove you to be clearer.

You said she was in Jail, not Juvie. Jails are for adults, and are not safe places.

If you'd specified that she was kept safe and away from the adult population in the first place, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

:shrug:

[pipi_k]

144. And it would also behoove everyone here who has jumped up my ass

to ask respectfully for clarification or explanation if something doesn't sound right instead of jumping up my ass.

[Ignis]

149. I'm not other people. I'm can only speak for my own posts.

And I'll admit the thought of a parent being happy that her daughter was locked up in an adult jail shocked me. Hey, I'm only human.

I don't think I "jumped up {your} ass," however. :shrug:

[blueamy66]

107. Good.

You're one of the lucky ones.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

36. She should have run as far away from you as possible

Ugh. You disgust me.

[pipi_k]

53. Oh well. There are some people whose approval I wouldn't even want...

Like Charles Manson, George Bush, Dick Cheney, Hitler, a garden slug...



as well as anyone else who feels they have a right to judge someone whose shoes they have never walked in.

[aikoaiko]

63. Sometimes one has to intervene with extreme measures to keep their kids safe

The nay sayers aren't providing much of a reason question your choice while you certainly provided reasons for the police intervention.

[Hosnon]

73. I agree. How arrogant of people to question these kinds of decisions based on such limited info. nt.

[ceile]

74. Agreed.

The pile on has been truly ridiculous.

[Hosnon]

76. In my opinion, the "pile on" is the worst of DU.

Because I have always considered tolerance, understanding, and a willingness to try to understand another person before judging them as fundamental liberal/progressive ideals.

Thankfully, the mods recognized the inappropriateness of the initial piler.

ETA: Not to mention that as a practical matter, absolutely nothing positive is gained by it.

[pipi_k]

77. thank you for this...

Each time she ran away I was absolutely SICK with worry and panic. I have a panic disorder anyway, which makes daily life real difficult even under "normal" circumstances.

We were still going through the trial for my child molesting brother in law and the entire family had been split apart. My mom didn't even want to talk to me because she thought my daughter (and at least two other little girls) was lying about the molestation. My father didn't believe it either. And my sister, married to this creep, was no longer my best friend.

While all this was going on, the kids' stepdad was wasting away from cancer. He actually died while my daughter was in the treatment facility.

In the midst of all this, I did the best I could, and I did what I thought was best for my daughter...which was to get her help.


I honestly can't understand why getting help for one's child would be so troublesome for some people, and it really goes beyond the pale for them to judge someone else so harshly when they have no idea whatsoever what was going on.

[seabeyond]

84. i was expecting some horror story from responses to your post. when i read

i didnt see it

i have wathed brother deal with three kids that felt they got to be adults at too young of age. when a teenager decides they dont have to follow rules, it reduces a lot of option.

thankfully i have two kids that have yet to see i have no power or control really. and they pretty much make life easy for me walking the line, following the rules, and making good choices.

i have listened to parents that dont have that comfort.

[EFerrari]

90. You seemed to have no problem judging the young lady upthread

with the even less information on her Face Book page.

[pipi_k]

96. I didn't judge her.

I merely pointed out for all the people who are absolutely horrified about the way she was "humiliated" by her perp walk that the photo on her Facebook page didn't exactly look dignified either.

Did I call her names? Did I say she was repulsive or despicable? No.


Now please stop.

[EFerrari]

103. You absolutely did judge her. ETA, in fact, you went to her FB page

looking for something to judge her with.

And, sure, I'll stop.

[pipi_k]

105. Alright...whatever you say. n/t

[msanthrope]

154. As a nay sayer, I would think that calling the cops when the molestation

took place would have been the correct thing to do.

Waiting a few years, until the molestor had apparently moved on, and all the other family crises were taking place, didn't help.

I suggest you read post 139--where she describes her failure to address the molestation when it took place--a period of years elapsed before help was sought.

[aikoaiko]

177. I can't disagree with you regarding calling the police immediately and seeking tx earlier.

But its difficult to know if the mother doing all the things you suggest would have changed the fact that the daughter acted out later on in life and extreme measures sometimes have to be taken to keep their teenage children safe (including police intervention).

Sometimes parents do all the "right" things and are still faced with difficult decisions.

The psychological evaluation data of children who are sexual molested show that some are resilient and show no effects, some are traumatized greatly, and everything in between including delayed effects.

[Forkboy]

72. After reading this post I can't imagine why anyone would runaway from you.

[Lilith Velkor]

79. A friend of mine was raped by six police officers after being arrested for running away.

She never told her mother, who is probably still patting herself on the back for it.

[Mariana]

82. I know someone who was raped in that situation, too.

By one officer, in her case. She likewise didn't tell her parents. Who's going to believe a delinquent's word over that of a police officer?

[pipi_k]

101. I'm sorry for that

But my daughter wasn't raped by any police officers.

If she had been, she would have said something, believe me.

[Lilith Velkor]

102. Oh, I'm sure you sleep the sleep of the just.

So does my friend's mother.

[pipi_k]

108. Like I said...

My daughter was NOT RAPED while she spent one night in jail.

She would have told me if anything had happened to her.


We never had a bad relationship. She didn't run away because of me, or the way she was treated at home. She was depressed and confused, and could not handle the feelings that arose after being molested, and then seeing her stepfather waste away from cancer.

Don't apply your friend's situation to mine.

[Lilith Velkor]

170. Didn't you say you don't know or care what happened to her in custody?

Well, if you don't, then how do you know whether she was raped or not?

And why is it you suddenly care? I mean, it is about consequences, right?

[Mariana]

174. She didn't tell you about the molestation

but you're absolutely certain she'd have told you about any bad experiences she had while in jail?

[blueamy66]

147. So, her telling you that she was raped

would have made it okay?

I don't get it....

There are just too many things that can happen to kids in jail...too many.

Thank God I don't have any...

[pipi_k]

148. Good lord, where do people get this shit?

Where did I say, or even IMPLY that her telling me if she had been raped would have "made it okay"???

Made what okay?


If she had been raped, it most definitely would NOT have been OK.


Is that what people think of the police now? A bunch of rapists?


Are all priests child molesters?

If a friend of yours gets raped or attacked by a black man, does that mean all black men are rapists?

Some people who live in Alabama are stupid. Does that mean all people in Alabama are stupid?

What is with the attitude around here, anyway?

sigh...

[Odin2005]

164. The naivite in this post is sad.

:banghead:

The posters above you just said that the rape victims never told their parents, why would your daughter be any different?

[Marr]

94. Wow-- you've certainly been piled onto.

For what it's worth, I'm glad it worked out and your daughter got the help she needed. I was once in a similar situation myself. Sometimes, none of your options are very appealing.

[pipi_k]

104. Thank you for the kind words...

For as much as I've been piled onto by a couple of individuals, I also noticed that not one of them has offered a suggestion or idea on how it could have been handled differently.

Not so much for me, because what's done is done...but for anyone who might find him or herself in a similar situation.

Criticism, judgment, name-calling...but no alternate solution.


In any case, you're absolutely right...sometimes you have very limited options from which to choose and you just do the best you can.

[Odin2005]

163. Wow, just wow. That is disgusting.

You called the police AFTER she returned home? WTF? :puke:

[ohheckyeah]

172. So, it wasn't really about teaching her something,

it was about making yourself comfortable. Would you have cared if they had traumatized her by strip searching her? Since when did arrest become the treatment for being suicidal, confused and depressed.

Thank GOD you weren't my mother.

[msongs]

19. "thanks to God" explains the entire problem with that family nt

[Rebubula]

20. No it does not

I am an atheist and I think that your post is silly.

[msongs]

23. not really, blaming a non existant cloud being for their problems is kinda useless IMO nt

[seabeyond]

26. ridiculous statement. nt

[KansasVoter]

38. +1000, God will handle it. What a bunch of crap.

[seabeyond]

50. ya, cause having a straight A student for all these years, and obvious good behavior

prior to this, really shows us, what fuckin shitty parents they are.

rollin eyes.

OMG... they said god. cast the stones.

[madmom]

27. When I was about 15, we lived in Columbus Ohio. Myself and 2 girlfriends went

to a high school football game. When the game was nearly over we left and met up with some other friends. Well as usual we lost track of time and common sense and when we were not home by 1:00am our parents called the cops. By that time we were on our way home and as a friend was going down our street we saw the cop car in our drive way so I got out away from house, so friend wouldn't get into trouble also. To make a longer story short, the cops proceeded in telling our parents that they "needed to loosen the reigns a little" and that was the end of the story. My, how times have changed.

[southernyankeebelle]

39. I saw nothing wrong with this video. The police actually saved this girl. She wanted to go home

and she was afraid that the boy wouldn't let her. All is well that ends well.

[Webster Green]

45. I guess I'm in the minority on this one.

Oh well.

I'm more pissed about the video and the flashing still images that are up on the TV station's website than the fact that she was detained. In my opinion it is overly sensationalizing the incident, and accomplishes nothing, other than to humiliate the girl in public. That's the last thing she needs right now.

We're regressing into a very cruel "society". :puke:

[Common Sense Party]

56. Why isn't the boyfriend/statutory rapist being perpwalked? n/t

[Xithras]

97. Because the age of consent in Ohio is 16

As it is in most states. Only 13 states require girls to wait until they're 18 to consent.

[asdjrocky]

75. When I see something like this-

I think about kick backs for the judge. Why put a minor in custody when her parents want her home?

Who's getting paid here?

[EFerrari]

87. The PIC. nt

[SoCalDem]

80. At her age she can probably file for emancipated minor status, or just cooperate for a few months

If she's 17, it can't be long until she turns 18.
At 18, she's free to choose..(unless she's emancipated)

Kids' choice of love-interests have always been an issue with parents, and it's unfortunate that the police did not just take her home in the first place.

But then, there's probably a reason she ran from there..

Here's hoping there's an Aunt or family friend who can help with this..

Every family has a "rebellious teen" episode or two or three or eleven..

Time passes, and if the pain is not too awful, there is often a reconciliation..My best wishes to them all..

[MilesColtrane]

92. I have more contempt for the media than the cops in this case.

They camped out with cameras and microphones specifically to get the footage of her being transferred in restraints.

Scummy move.

[proteus_lives]

122. No outrage here.

She ran-away to a boyfriend's house to punish her family for some slight and now learns that actions have consequences.

[laughingliberal]

137. Welcome to the Police States of America. nt

[pipi_k]

150. So anyway, if there's one thing I learned from this thread...

it's that the next time I find myself being attacked for something I did with the best of intentions, instead of attempting to defend myself, the appropriate response would probably be:

And how would YOU have handled this?


People seem to have no problem whatsoever beating someone up for a decision, but somehow they can't come up with a good answer as to how they personally would have handled something like a kid who's run away from home three times, leaving everyone to wonder if she's dead or alive.

I asked the question two...maybe three...times upthread.

No answer. Nothing but the sound of crickets in an empty theater.

In fact, that's probably a real good strategy for the rest of life, too. Turn the tables on the criticizers...put the focus on them. More times than not, they don't even have any better solutions than the one they're bashing.

[mrmpa]

155. it's a small town

Had this been in a large city, the cops would have called her parents, waited till they showed up and taken her home with them. This is a small town, where they will treat her like a juvenile delinquent and punish her.

[Odin2005]

159. This is just evil.

:grr:

[Prometheus Bound]

180. Unbelievable! Jail? Shackles? News video? WTF?

[Mariana]

181. That'll teach that rotten kid a lesson! Consequences!

She'll think twice before she tries anthing like that again, by God!

:sarcasm:

[H2O Man]

182. From the details provided,

it was a mistake for the "adults" to take the actions they did.

This thread has some rather troubling examples of a complete lack of basic parenting skills, complete with equally foolish actions, as well.