Cartoon On Bartcop (Hate Is Hate):

[Dinger]

Pretty much says it all imo.

[madinmaryland]

1. K&R

[WillyT]

2. Yep... K & R !!!

:kick:

[ingac70]

3. k&r

[HopeHoops]

4. K&R - that says it all!

[Uncle Joe]

5. Yes there are a couple of major differences.

1. The NAZIs supported genocide, the Confederacy did not.

2. The Nazis tried to conquer the world, the Confederacy did not.

Hate is not just hate, there are different levels of hate, sometimes hate is righteous and sometimes it's just self-righteous, in all cases hate is capable of consuming you, no matter which side you're on.

Thanks for the thread, Dinger.

[Sebastian Doyle]

6. Ever seen the movie "CSA"?

It's a "mockumentary" that speculates what this country's last 140 years of history might have looked like if the Confederacy had won the "Civil" war. One thing they touch on is how the CSA would have been likely allies with the Nazi regime of Hitler. (Officially, that is. Not just the unofficial support they got from the Bush Crime Family, Henry Ford, Chuckie Lindbergh and other right wing elitists of the time.)

http://www.csathemovie.com/

[Uncle Joe]

7. There may never have been a War World II or rise of Hitler had the Confederacy won.

The United States entered World War I becoming the decisive tide turner, Hitler rose from the ashes of that defeat.

If the Germans had won World War I or a prolonged stalemate had brought about a treaty without the allies; knowing the U.S. was there for military support, the NAZIs may have not have rose to power as the treaty may have been more equitable in German eyes.

That's the thing about history, altering one event, especially a major event such as the Civil War could have opposite consequences as the dynamics for everything changes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. You're splitting hairs.

[Uncle Joe]

10. Yes because genocide and conquering the world are just hairs.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. Both nations were founded on the notion that the white race was superior.

One wanted to either subjugate or exterminate racial minorities, the other simply wanted to subjugate racial minorities for profit, and they were willing to kill any who got in their way. And if there wasn't a profit motive for allowing African Americans to exist, and they had access to gas chambers, there's little doubt they would have thought twice over murdering them. They certainly murdered many African Americans who presented trouble for them. Black Union POWs, for example. So yeah, that's splitting hairs. As for "taking over the world" the South specifically seceded because they feared they wouldn't be allowed to spread their culture of white supremacy and slavery into the western states.

[Uncle Joe]

13. As it was for the United States and not just the white race but superiority of gender as well, but

nations and peoples can and do evolve, eventually even New York and Pennsylvania outlawed slavery.

There is a major difference between genocide and murder, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not.

As the Confederacy didn't exist long enough to grow in population and industrialize to the point of the North thereby weaning it self away from en slaved labor, we have no way of knowing what course would have been taken.

Perhaps they would have sent their slaves back to Africa as Lincoln proposed at one time, perhaps they would have segregated them along the lines of South Africa and as the *Supreme Court of 1896 did, ironically the only justice; opposed to those Jim Crow Laws came from a slave owning family in Kentucky.

*This court was appointed by Northern Presidents and Northern dominated Congresses as few Southerners obtained any level of power for decades after the Civil War.

Edit to add link.

Plessy vs Ferguson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson

Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537 (1896), is a landmark United States Supreme Court decision in the jurisprudence of the United States, upholding the

In a 7 to 1 decision (Justice David Josiah Brewer did not participate)<4> the Court rejected Plessy's arguments based on the Fourteenth Amendment, seeing no way in which the Louisiana statute violated it. In addition, the majority of the Court rejected the view that the Louisiana law implied any inferiority of blacks, in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. Instead, it contended that the law separated the two races as a matter of public policy.

(snip)


Justice John Marshall Harlan, a former slave owner who decried the excesses of the Ku Klux Klan, wrote a scathing dissent in which he predicted the court's decision would become as infamous as that in Dred Scott v. Sandford.

Virtually all nations and peoples are capable of hatred and atrocity, the Confederacy was no exception, nor was the United States but there is no comparison to that Nazi Germany.

[immoderate]

14. You need to recognize a chaotic system.

This is like the "butterfly effect."

How might the world be different if the US had not overthrown the government of Iran and installed the Shah? Would Reagan have happened? What would change then? Russia? Central America? Africa? Endless possibilities.

--imm

[-..__...]

12. Splitting hairs?

That's actually the flag for the Hitler Youth... not the "National Socialist Party" (NSDAP/Nazi party).

:hide:

[NoPasaran]

20. And speaking of split hair...

The other flag is not the flag of the Confederate States but rather the naval jack.

:hide:

[southmost]

15. well actually...

there's a country which has already
1. supported and practiced a very successful genocide (to near completion)
2. succeeded at conquering/subjugating many countries around the world

and the CSA definitely took part in the first part

[Uncle Joe]

22. You're talking about what has been done to the Native Americans by the U.S. but

even that wasn't state sanctioned genocide, that was war, betrayal, thievery, massacring slaughter, grave injustice, dislocation, rape and murder, but it wasn't genocide.

The only thing that stopped NAZI Germany from killing all the Jews, Poles and Homosexuals under their control was losing World War II, that's genocide, they had concentration camps built for the specific purpose of exterminating people, those were literally death factories.

If the United had been committed to genocide of the Native Americans, there wouldn't be any Native Americans left because no one was there to stop them.

[MellowDem]

8. Of course there is a difference...

historically. The CSA was very very different from the Nazi regime. The comparison is pretty ridiculous. The KKK adopted the CSA battle flag as a symbol of white supremacy. The neo-nazis have tried to combine these two symbols in order to try to recruit Americans, and I guess through the KKK and their efforts, the CSA battle flag's meaning has changed to some, while it still maintains its historical meaning to others. The Confederate battle flag doesn't have the same stigma that a nazi flag has because of this, at least not yet. The CSA battle flag isn't even recognized in many parts of the world. Just go to a Lynard Skynard concert and you'll see a ton of Confederate battle flags, but more in the slant of Southern heritage or the "rebel" spirit.

I think we should make distinctions between such symbols. The American flag, for many, could and is seen as a symbol of hate as well. But would you compare the American flag and the Nazi flag and say there is no difference? The KKK marched and still marches today with the American flag. It's all about whether you can accept hate groups changing the meaning of symbols for their own purposes of seeming more mainstream or trying to appeal to a wider group of people. I've seen the "heritage not hate" stickers on the back of cars. It is an attempt to keep the symbol's other meanings from being pushed aside, due to its use by other groups.

[Chisox08]

16. To me they both represent hate, racism and death.

When people fly the Confederate flag and claim heritage consider my heritage because that flag represents the enslavement,rape and murder of my ancestors. The war of Southern Treason (The Civil War) was fought because 19th century teabaggers was afraid of the government coming to take their slaves.

[xchrom]

17. recommend

[alphafemale]

18. Flags of defeated losers? nt

[aikoaiko]

19. Depending on the context, some people would put the US flag up there

Other people might suggest the Mexican flag, the Russian flag, the Soviet flag, the French flag, etc.

My point being that many governments had done things that someone could consider hateful, but yet there are people who might continue to fly the flag for the nonhateful stances or actions it represents.

[blondeatlast]

21. (Sigh...) and another:

(BTW, I've lived in AZ for over 35 years...)