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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 08:01 PM
Original message
The Uses of and Difference Between Shame and Guilt
Both shame and guilt are widely used in the raising of children and in the structuring of societies. They are both painful emotions, and therefore people who feel wronged by another person often wish to inflict either or both of these emotions upon the person who they believe wronged them. Thus shame and guilt have a lot in common and sometimes there is a fine line or overlap between them.

Yet at the same time, in many ways they are opposites. Therefore, both in the raising of children or in the structuring of societies it is crucial to understand the differences between them. Here are typical definitions of each:

Shame: The painful feeling arising from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improper, ridiculous, etc.

Guilt: A feeling of responsibility or remorse for some offense, crime, wrong, etc.


Specificity

The most basic difference between shame and guilt is the specificity of the target. Guilt is much more specific than shame. It is targeted at a specific action, whereas shame is all-encompassing. If I accidentally bump into someone, knocking them down and injuring them, I might feel guilty about that specific action.

Shame on the other hand may or may not be based upon a specific action, and typically it is not. But whether or not it is based upon a specific action, it is directed at a person’s whole being rather than the specific action. Jeremy Rifkin explains this in his book, “The Empathic Civilization – The Race to Global Consciousness in a World in Crisis”:

Shame denigrates a person’s being, making them feel worthless and inhuman. To be shamed is to be rejected. Shame is a way of isolating a person from the collective we. He or she becomes an outsider and a nonperson.

It is easy to see from this description that shame would usually tend to be much more painful than guilt – though it is of course possible that severe guilt could be more painful than a case of mild shame.


Consequences and relationship to empathy

The difference in specificity between shame and guilt is highly related to their radically different consequences. Guilt, since it is targeted at a specific action, has the potential to produce highly constructive consequences – with the help of empathy. That is, if a person feels empathy towards a person or animal whom he has harmed, then he may have the capacity to resolve his guilt by apologizing to his victim or in some other way making amends.

Rifkin explains the process with respect to the raising of children by noting that when a child’s behavior is hurtful towards another person, the parents should ideally use the event as a teaching tool to further the child’s capacity for empathy. They do this by gently attempting to get the child to acknowledge and understand the effect of his behavior on the person he harmed:

If the child’s behavior is approached in a nonjudgmental but concerned manner, it is likely to trigger the empathic distress and a sense of guilt and the consequent desire to make reparation to the victim. What induction disciplining is really teaching the child is the substance of human morality – responsibility for one’s actions, compassion for others, a willingness to come to another’s aid and comfort, and a proper sense of fair play and justice. The maturation of empathy and the development of a moral sense are one and the same thing… Helping a child reflect on his own behavior, feel a sense of guilt and remorse, and make an effort at reparation is a deeply therapeutic process.

The consequences of shame, however, are wholly destructive. Since a person’s whole being is involved, shame cannot be resolved simply by making amends for a wrong. Indeed, there is usually no wrong involved. The all-encompassing nature of shame, far from involving empathy, actually tends to shut it off. Rifkin explains:

Shame has the effect of turning off the innate empathic impulse. If one feels like a non-being, socially ostracized and without self-worth, he is unable to draw upon his empathic reserves to feel for another’s plight. Unable to emotionally connect with others, he either shrinks into withdrawal or acts out his sense of abandonment by exercising rage at others. Why rage? Because it is often the only way he has open to him to communicate and engage his fellow human beings.

Raising children in such a manner can and often does have disastrous consequences:

By shaming a child the parents are letting him know that he is not living up to their expectations and, therefore, not worthy of their consideration. The child is left with the impression that his very being is a disappointment and that he must conform to an “ideal image” of what his parents expect from him or suffer the consequences of rejection.

Such a process can be extremely destructive. It can destroy a child’s self-esteem, paralyze his ability to act constructively, and cause him to grow into an angry and violent adult.


Source

As guilt is intimately rooted in empathy, its source is primarily internal. One person may attempt to cause another person to feel guilty about having wronged her. But unless that person actively participates he will feel no guilt. Guilt ultimately must come from within – rooted in a sense that one has wronged another person, and a feeling of empathy towards the wronged person which leads to a determination to reconcile the wrong. Rifkin explains that “Guilt is an internal mechanism that reminds one of his deep social connection to others and the need to repair the social bond”.

Some people refuse to feel guilty about anything. They have no sense of guilt – meaning that they probably lack a sense of empathy and morals.

Shame on the other hand is imposed on a person through an external source – usually by an authority figure or by society as a whole. Typically shame is imposed by majorities upon minorities or by the powerful upon the vulnerable. It is used as a method of control, and it is often achieved through intimidation and violence – such as in rape.

It is theoretically possible for a person to resist the feeling of shame, even when violently imposed by a powerful authority figure or majority of society. But few people have the internal force to resist it when forcefully imposed.


Reasonableness

It follows that the process leading to guilt has the potential to be reasonable, whereas shaming usually lacks any component of reasonableness. It is reasonable (and useful) for a person to feel guilty when he inflicts suffering on another person – whether purposefully or through carelessness. As noted above, the guilty feelings often lead to a process of reconciliation between the two parties.

But when the powerful impose shame upon the vulnerable, rationality is almost always lacking, except in the sense that one person or group uses it as a tool to control another person or group. For example slave masters routinely used shame against their slaves as a tool to keep them in line. In addition to imposing shame through violence, they used special vocabularies to impose shame (and justify their own actions). The word drapetomania, for example, was used to define a mental illness in which black slaves were plagued by an excessive and “abnormal” desire to flee captivity.

Shame is often used against sexual desires and practices. For example, men often use words like “slut” or “whore” to refer to women who, in their opinion have too much sex. In the good majority of cases, the sexual activities for which women are shamed are not activities for which there is any good reason to feel guilty about.

Nor is there anything reasonable about the shame that societies inflict upon homosexuals, simply for being who they are. That shame is simply something that the powerful inflict upon the vulnerable for whatever sick reason it is that motivates them.


Motivations of those who attempt to instill shame and guilt

Since as noted above, guilt potentially has highly constructive uses whereas shame is usually a highly destructive emotion, it follows that those who attempt to instill guilt (in their children for example) often do so out of love, whereas those who attempt to instill shame almost always do so out of hate. Rifkin describes the loving aspect of guilt instillation from the standpoint of loving parents attempting to instill a sense of guilt in their children:

By explaining how the other person (whom their child wronged) might feel and asking him how he would feel in the same situation, the parents are letting him know that they trust his innate goodness and desire to empathize with others and make amends…

Shame on the other hand is such a painful and destructive emotion that nobody would ever attempt to instill it in someone whom they loved.


Shaming cultures

As noted above, shame is often used as a means of societal control. For example, when a nation’s leaders need young men to use as cannon fodder for their wars, they often attempt to use shame as a form of blackmail to recruit volunteers. Majorities use it against minorities to keep them in line. The word “unpatriotic” is used against those who criticize their nation’s leaders, as a means of shaming them into silence.

Right wingers, especially those who occupy positions of great power, make wide use of shame. When their nation’s economy goes to hell, leaving millions unemployed they attempt to shame those who are unable to find a job. By doing that they relieve themselves of the responsibility – as our elected representatives – to create jobs or lend a helping hand to the unemployed. They also use it as a political tool. The shaming of the most vulnerable (immigrants, minorities, homosexuals) of our population is used as a divide-and-conquer technique designed to win the votes of the rest of the electorate.

Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett explore in their book, “The Spirit Level – Why Greater Equality makes Societies Stronger”, the relationships between inequality, shame, and indicators of societal pathology such as violent crime. Unequal societies tend to impose shame on those of lower status. Shame leads to violence and other pathological consequences for society. The authors explain this relationship:

So what factors explain why some societies seem better than others at preventing or controlling these impulses to violence? The simple answer is that increased inequality ups the stakes in the competition for status… The impact of inequality on violence is even better established and accepted than the other effects of inequality…

Cultures that make wide use of shame are ugly to behold. Jeremy Rifkin describes the hypocrisy and tragedy of shaming societies:

Ironically, while a shaming culture pretends to adhere to the highest standards of moral perfection, in reality it produces a culture of self-hate, envy, jealousy, and hatred toward others. Shaming cultures, throughout history, have been the most aggressive and violent because they lock up the empathic impulse, and with it the ability to experience another’s plight and respond with acts of compassion. When a child grows up in a shaming culture believing that he must conform to an ideal of perfection or purity or suffer the wrath of the community, he is likely to judge everyone else by the same rigid, uncompromising standards...

It is not uncommon to hear (in a shaming culture) about a woman who has been gang-raped and who is then stoned to death by her own family and neighbors, because she has brought shame on herself and her family. Rather than empathize with her suffering, the community inflicts even greater punishment on her… In the eyes of the community, she bears the shame of the rape, despite the fact that she was the innocent victim.


Towards a more constructive societal use for shame

As described above, shaming is almost always a highly destructive process. But it need not necessarily be so. The reason that it is so is that it is used primarily by the dominant culture to suppress those under its control. The dominant culture has lots of assets to use in that cause.

But shaming is a psychological process. People can only be shamed by those whom they respect. Unfortunately, way too many people have too much respect for wealth, power, and authority rather than for the best human qualities, such as empathy, honesty, and courage (intellectual as well as physical). Even psychopaths, when they hold great power, command the unwavering respect of millions. Those who hold great respect for psychopaths are highly susceptible to their manipulation and control.

Shame is a tremendously powerful force because it is so terribly painful. People will do almost anything to avoid it. Wilkinson and Pickett describe the power of shame:

Our sensitivity to shame continues to provide the basis for conformity throughout adult life. People often find even the smallest infringement of social norms in the presence of others causes so much embarrassment that they are left wishing they could just disappear…

But our society puts shame to all the wrong purposes. We are bombarded by messages aimed at shaming us into buying things that we are led to believe will provide us with status. We are shamed into withholding criticism of our leaders, for fear of being branded “unpatriotic”. We are shamed into supporting our nation’s wars of aggression and all the crimes against humanity which that entails.

Shame could be put to much better use if it was pointed away from the powerless and towards those psychopaths who hold positions of great power. Shame could be an important tool for the control of psychopaths since psychopaths lack a sense of guilt. What if instead of low status being a cause of shame, shame was instead attached to actions that actually deserved to be labeled as shameful?

For example, what if causing great damage to our planet became a source of shame? What if white collar crime became a major source of shame? What if it became shameful for our nation’s leaders to prosecute unnecessary wars? What if it was considered shameful to kill civilians in war? What if police brutality was widely considered shameful? If all these things became a deep source of shame they would begin to go away immediately. We wouldn’t even need any laws to make them go away.

That could all happen. But it will happen only when enough people develop the psychological fortitude to attach shame to those activities that really warrant it. It will happen only when enough people learn to respect the human qualities that really matter rather than the false gods of wealth, power, and status.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kick.
Edited on Sat Aug-07-10 10:14 PM by Kurovski
There seems to be pale ghosts of victory and honor still attached to wars, no matter the reason they're begun, while shame is ascribed to attempts at health care for all, fair pay, and civil rights.


At least that's the subtle, and not so subtle {FOX) scenarios cobbled together by media, extremist christians, nutcakes, and RW think tanks.

Rec'd
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live love laugh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Brilliant! Shame is a powerful emotion that I have grappled with personally.
I have been able to overcome it--it was something I took on as a victim of abuse in my childhood. Now I see people who exhibit some of the same characteristics of being ashamed of themselves--poor posture, downward gaze, etc. many times I've seen this with people who have physical deformities. When I see someone who I think may be suffering from shame I immediately send up a quiet prayer for them that they too may realize how beautiful they are and how precious life is and realize how little they have little to be ashamed of.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Thank you -- glad you were able to overcome it
I'm sure that was very difficult to do. It would be very interesting to know how people are able to do that. I've never seen anything written on that.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. ...

:hug:

I, too, am so glad you've overcome and seek to, in your own way, help others do the same.

:hug:
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. wow, i really love this essay.
too tired to comment to the extent that i'd like to, but suffice it to say that you've really got a powerful idea here. right on.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Thank you -- As I read Rifkin's book it occurred to me that
these emotions have tremendous influence over how our societies are structured and how we live our lives. It occurred to me that understanding them and figuring out how to use them for better purposes may provide a key towards creating a better society.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. "shaming" is a primary form of control. you create an outgroup, and then move inconvenient people to
that outpost where A) they can't be seen, and B) they're tainted with the shame associated with that particular outpost. when this is its most successful the "transgressor," i.e. the overweight person, the poor, the truthseeker, will internalize the message that they are undesirable and become enforcers of the "desired" body type/economic status/ideas themselves. hence, the newly fit will have the least empathy for those carrying a few too many pounds (in their opinion). The nouveau riche will have no tolerance for those struggling to make ends meet.

i wonder, though, how this works with the last category? the idea outlaw. the person who exposes "the lie agreed upon" and seeks to point out the dynamics of deception. when their messages are shamed by marginalization, do they retreat to the shadows, eschewing their radical ideas? do they self edit? do they silence themselves for fear of winding up in the outlands of accepted/acceptable discourse?

no one like to imagine that there's a sociology to science/thought. we really *like* to believe that science and human science and political science stand on their own b/c *evidence* and axioms and proofs bear themselves out such that untrue ideas don't receive traction. as if it's a meritocracy, but it's really not. the ideas that become "accepted" are often the ideas of the best connected people -- the ones who know whose ass to kiss at the conferences and on the editorial boards. the ones who know better than to rock the boat by introducing inconvenient data points. the sociology of "science" demands that there be dungeons where verboten ideas can be tortured and laid to rest -- otherwise, (they'd have you believe) there'd be no disciple...no rationality. we are a monotheistic culture not just in terms of religion, but also in terms of ideas. or, put another way, science and ideas live through the bodies and minds of people predisposed to misplaced religiousity. or, maybe it's not misplaced...maybe the genius there is knowing that only ONE vision can win in our world, and all other versions must be thrown out b/c they threaten the primacy of the hegemon.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Exactly -- The competition for ideas in our culture is not at all a meritocracy
That is especially so since our media has been consolidated into fewer and fewer hands -- although the rise of the Internet has been and hopefully will continue to be a powerful counteracting force.

With regard to the "idea outlaws", I believe that they are substantially less susceptable to shaming than the other groups. They are quite obviously a self-selected group and have an independence of thought that is greater the the good majority of other people. But the shaming of unpopular ideas certainly inhibits a lot of people from becoming "idea outlaws".

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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. perfectly spot on. you're so right -- it doesn't inhibit the idea outlaw -- it inhibits emerging
outlaw ideas.

eggasactly.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
43. I believe that the university system really helps people remain
Edited on Sun Aug-08-10 03:10 PM by truedelphi
dependent on the wisdom of others in terms of figuring out what subset of beliefs to follow.

And they are not willing to see how influenced the university laboratories are by Big Science industries money (Be it GMO companies or Big Pharma.)

I had a very dear friend who got her PhD. And during the Bush years, she went on to be a department head at a large university. She kept telling me that the country was not becoming fascist at all, because after all, the Media would warn us if that was happening. (And she meant Mainstream Media by use of the word Media.)

How can someone like that be persuaded of anything? She defended Bush right up until the summer of 2008, and then flip flopped away from her conservative "values" only when everyone else did. So in the end she voted for Obama.

But to try and talk to her about anything that is not in the headlines is pointless. Depleted uranuium is good for our soldiers and the civilians, Monsanto wants to help us by having its GMO and on and on.

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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. This sounds right.
Shame is a major means of social control in patriarchal, authoritarian cultures. As I mentioned before, the notion of original sin is a pernicious seed that, when planted into the fertile soil of the child's psyche, grows into a nearly ineradicable thicket of shame. A Creeping Charlie of the soul.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think it's going to take more than just shame -
but some really good stuff in here. Last line is powerful.
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mia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
5. Great read, especially as it relates to child rearing.
It would also apply to the raising of the children of oligarchs, only there the shame and guilt would be attached to something else. Most of us, rich and poor alike, have a hard time rising above the gods of wealth, power and status, however relative they may be.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
47. Thank you -- I'm especially interesting in the child rearing issue because
I'm watching my four year old grand daughter grow up, and participate to some extent in her care.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
6. The Ownership Class respond to only one thing - fear of consequences
i.e. fear of Us

The ruling elite will never attach shame to their actions against We, the Peons. Never.
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AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. Sociopaths are incapable of feeling shame or guilt.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 03:32 PM
Original message
That is true
That is why we the people need to take it upon ourselves to attach shame to their actions.
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
7. Authoritarianism
leads to the acceptance of deviant behavior by the powerful. What was once shameful (i.e. the use of torture) was magically transformed into "a vital tool in the War on Terror."

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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
9. Fascinating...

Excellent read, with much to ponder. Thanks for the wonderful links as well.

K&R

:hi:

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
54. Thank you
:hi:
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
11. excellent, excellent essay
K&R
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
13. I'm going to disagree
I"m probably not going to say this very well, but shame, something that others try to direct toward you, is far less likely to inflict pain and harm. In order to feel shame you have to care what the other person thinks about you.

Guilt can be corrosive; shame, not so much. Now if you wanted to make the argument that guilt is a lingering by-product of shame I would consider that. But the thesis that shame is more harmful than guilt? I respectfully don't agree.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. It is absolutely true, as you say, that in order to feel shame you have to care what the
other person thinks of you.

But society (some much more than others, and in different ways) collectively targets certain behaviors and human characteristics for shame, and then often uses law enforcement or violence to enforce that sense of shame.

Skin color, for example. Consider the Jim Crowe era. Black people were second class citizens, and law and violence were aggressively used to enforce that point. Whereas it is true, as you point out, that black people would have had to care what majority society thought of them in order for them to feel shamed, a great many of them (probably most, and perhaps the vast majority) did care. It is extremely difficult for people to ignore ostracism when practiced by the majority of society, and few are capable of doing that.

This was in fact the main rationale for the Brown v. Board of Education 1954 Supreme Court Decision. The Court would not accept the "separate but equal" rationale that was used to justify widespread segregation, recognizing that segregation was in itself toxic to society (I'm not sure if they actually used the word "shame", but the concept was central to their decision).

The same thing applies to parents that heap shame on their children. Yes, if the child doesn't care what the parents think, then they won't feel shame. But the vast majority of them do care. And those who have been repeatedly shamed as children tend to find it exceedingly difficult to grow out of when they become adults.

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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. child shame is a great example b/c young children are predisposed to internalizing shame
young children only want what their parents want. it's all they know. you don't get meaningful rebellion until the "age of reason" which happens around middle school (ages 11-12). and, children who don't have a foundational sense of self won't be able to rebel -- they'll internalize the shame and grow quieter and less confident.

a rebel still very much wants the approval of their parents, but they want it on their terms. they want the parent to recognize their hypocrisy. the shamed child who remains quiet might actually care a whole lot less about what the parent thinks, and their adopted strategy is simply to fly under the radar. they won't argue b/c they don't give a shit what the outcome is, whereas a rebel is all about winning the conflict.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. I agree with cornermouse. Shame and guilt can be equally corrosive.
Empathy must be nurtured, first within a child by parents and other caregivers, and then (this being the only true sign of adulthood) within ourselves.

Punishment, self-inflicted or externally applied, poisons effective empathy. Both "guilt" and "shame" societies suffer individuals of limited empathy, individuals who have had their empathy poisoned by toxic guilt and toxic shame.

Imagine a kid who is gay. They might feel guilty and ashamed, and in either case those feelings are wrongly imposed upon them by their parents and their community. Child victims of sexual abuse often feel guilty and ashamed. In both these cases the feelings of shame and guilt are damaging to the child.

There's no better example of this than the dysfunctional hierarchy of the Catholic Church. The Church is both a shame and a guilt society and within this poisonous stew very damaged people who's empathy has been broken achieve and abuse positions of power.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Note that when I spoke in the OP of the potential constructive qualities of guilt I always
modified my statements with the word "potential".

I don't understand how a gay person could feel guilty about being gay. Guilt implies an awareness of having done something to injure another person, along with a feeling of empathy towards the injured person and the desire to atone for it. Where is victim that results from being gay? I guess it is possible to convince a gay person that there are victims resulting from the fact of his being gay, but I think that shame is the much more predominant force.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. IMHO, guilt applies to acts, shame to more pervasive states.
If the person for whatever reason feels bad about a specific act, it is guilt; if it is about a state of being, it is shame. We may rely on empathy to put teeth in the feeling of guilt, but that isn't the only way to get there. In classic Freudian terms, guilt would arise from specific actions that violate standards the person has incorporated into the superego, regardless of how they got there. Shame would attach to "being gay," guilt to doing something that violates internal standards.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Yes, "Guilt applies to acts, shame to more pervasive states"
That's one of the main points I tried to convey in my OP.

As far as empathy not being the pathway through which guilt can be instilled, it is interesting that you bring up Freud because Rifkin's book takes issue with Freud on several accounts and references various experts in psychology and sociology to do that. I never accepted Freudian psychology, and when my father, who was a Freudian oriented psychologist, was alive, I used to argue with him about it a lot, even as a teenager. Obviously, I didn't have the psychological expertise to argue those points with him, but there were things about Freud's teachings that I instinctively abhorred -- mostly cenering around the feeling that his psychology was very materialistic and ignored aspects of the human soul that were essential to understanding who we are. I believe that there are a lot more psychologists today who would agree with that.

Of course the argument over whether or not guilt can only be produced through empathy is in some essential ways a semantic argument. Depending on how guilt is defined, one can maintain that empathy is an essential component of it, or that it is not. I didn't really address that issue in my OP, in which I allowed for the fact that the constructive aspects of guilt were "potential" -- meaning that sometimes guilt may not be constructive. But maybe guilt is always constructive, depending on how it is defined. If it always is based on empathy, then maybe it is always constructive. What about a situation when someone convinces you to feel guilty about something, based on the fact that, as Freud would say, you had committed actions contrary to what was incorporated into your superego? It seems to me that that is very different from the kind of guilt that is based on empathy. Maybe there should be another word for it. Maybe such a feeling is much closer to shame than it is to guilt.

Just some thoughts.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. My use of a Freudian construct, the superego, shouldn't be taken
as evidence that I'm any sort of identifiable Freudian. In fact, I'm far more interested in the newer, Buddhist-inspired psychologies of meaning, in transpersonal psych, and generally in fostering personal growth, commitment to ideals, acts of will, etc. I would probably go along with the notion that any contents of the superego that do not arise from empathy should be suspect, but I still think it is useful to consider that some instances of guilt can arise from violating prohibitions that one learned without reference to empathy; thus one might feel guilt for sexual behaviors from which no harm accrues to others. I might also see guilt of that sort as an appropriate target for therapy. :)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. I didn't think you were a Freudian
In fact I would have doubted it.

I was just responding to your reference to a Freudian idea in your post.

Tell me this. If one feels "guilty" for sexual behaviors from which no harm accures to others, then how is that differentiated from shame? I guess you could say that it is because it is caused by specific actions rather than a feeling of one's whole self being worthless. But isn't there overlap of shame and guilt on that score? Or to put it another way, wouldn't it be reasonable to say that if someone feels "guilty" over behaviors that caused no harm to anyone or even any foreseeable harm, then that could better be termed shame than guilt?

It just makes more sense to me to look at it that way.

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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. As you suggested earlier, I think we're wading into
semantic quicksand. I think it is exactly the specific act versus global self evaluation that caused me to separate the two as I did. It seems to be in the same arena as sin; something might be wrong because God says so, and no further reason is needed. One sins--i.e. violates a proscription by which nobody is hurt (e.g. fails to go to church on the Sabbath)--and then perhaps feels unease, anxiety, dread of incurring God's wrath--

Ahah! That's it. You choose to exclude fears of external punishment from your concept of guilt, reserving it for intropunitive (empathy-based) discomfort. I think we have something of a shame-guilt continuum here. "Pure" shame is global and has its ultimate roots in a fear of punishment; "pure" guilt is specific to a given act and has its roots in an identification with the other and an empathic grasp of the pain delivered to the other. This would suggest that the middle of the spectrum could be occupied by a hybrid form: fear of external punishment for a single act ("God's going to get me for that"). Pure shame would include global negative self-evaluation related to a specific act (I'm just evil, and this is more evidence of the fact") as well as global negative self-evaluation resulting from chronic drenching in negative status messages. The former would presumably be predicated on the presence of the latter.

This has been a very valuable discussion for me, and will leave me with a lot to think about for a while.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Yes, that's very much what I was trying to say
To put it yet another way: If a person experiences "guilt" from committing an act which even that individual knows has no foreseeable adverse consequences for anyone, then the concept seems so abstract to me that I cannot wrap my mind around it. Shame is abstract in that way. There is no rationale reason for the person to feel guilty (or bad in any way) -- as when a woman is severely beaten by her family for having been raped. The action is specific, so in that respect some may be tempted to call the feeling the woman would have guilt instead of shame. But it seems to me that shame is more the operating principle.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. "No rational reason..."
But if a specific act, or class of act, was severely punished in the past, one would develop an avoidance gradient around it and might never reality-test it as an adult to determine that it is harmless. The emotions would be different--fear of the external punishing agent versus empathic pain. Interestingly, the Freudians would probably have recognized only the fear of punishment, while the behaviorists of a generation ago would not have distinguished between the two (e.g. assuming that the child found the empathy training aversive and merely wants to avoid a repetition). This gets into very interesting territory.

Mirror neurons, it's all mirror neurons. (Do I need a sarcasm thingie?)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Another thing that occurred to me
There's a subtle (or not so subtle) difference between the specificity of the act that leads to the feelings (guilt or shame) and whether the person is cast as having merely committed an act that was wrong or is simply a worthless, bad person. When the intent of the parent or authority is to shame a person (cast them as a worthless and bad person) they frequently (or usually) use specific acts as their rationale for doing so. Thus a woman who is severely beaten for having sex is cast as a bad, worthless person, even though the act she committed may be specific.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Another thing that occurred to me
There's a subtle (or not so subtle) difference between the specificity of the act that leads to the feelings (guilt or shame) and whether the person is cast as having merely committed an act that was wrong or is simply a worthless, bad person. When the intent of the parent or authority is to shame a person (cast them as a worthless and bad person) they frequently (or usually) use specific acts as their rationale for doing so. Thus a woman who is severely beaten for having sex is cast as a bad, worthless person, even though the act she committed may be specific.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Punitive-minded parents also frequently overgeneralize:
"You're always getting in trouble at school"

or blame and punish the child for something she couldn't help: "You little monster! You wet the bed again." When you repeatedly catch hell because of something you have no control over, you end up internalizing the idea that your failures are because you're bad, and you have no clue how to be otherwise. Herein is a major tie between learned helplessness and toxic shame. Random punishment/reward dictated by the parent's internal states rather than the child's behavior can also lead to the same sense of ineffectuality, learned helplessness and shame.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. It was explained to me this way.
Guilt is the feeling that you have done wrong or made a mistake

Shame is the feeling that you are wrong or that you are a mistake.

One refers to an action, the other refers to you.

And that's why shame is much more toxic to a person than guilt.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. That is precisely the understanding of it that I have.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
57. "is far less likely to inflict pain and harm"
I take it you've never attended a Catholic School? :evilgrin:
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
15. Very interesting as always. I have a couple of quibbles.
Edited on Sun Aug-08-10 11:16 AM by Jackpine Radical
Mostly, I don't see shame as having much useful function at all. I have known criminals (invariably from painful, dysfunctional backgrounds) who are drenched in shame and not just low, but negative self-esteem. They often feel no guilt for their crimes. "She should have known better than to be in that part of town carrying a purse. Then I wouldn't have robbed and raped her." The stance seems to be, "Of course I did these awful things. What do you expect of an asshole like me?" Shame attaches globally to the person, while guilt attaches to the act.

Likewise, if, as you point out, guilt is associated with empathy and shame with the lack thereof (and I think you're right), then it would seem fruitless to try to shame people into or out of any particular behavior. Guilt would be by far the more effective tool. Shame-avoidance can be accomplished by deception or just not being found out, for example, while guilt activates inescapable internal feelings of remorse.

True psychopaths, a category in which I would include a large number of CEOs, have neither guilt nor shame. The ones in the boardrooms differ from the ones in the prisons mostly on variables such as IQ and the ability to defer gratification.

Another connection that ought to be emphasized is that the guilt/shame dichotomy maps onto locus of control and learned helplessness/personal efficacy. Shame-based personalities see themselves as powerless, with their bad behaviors arising from flaws deep inside them. (I would draw a connection to original sin here). They had no choice in their behavior because of who they are. Guilt-based people, on the other hand, see their misdeeds as arising from bad choices that they made. Much of criminal rehabilitation treatment involves moving people from shame-based views of the self to the guilt "camp."

As an aside, I believe that the notion of shame versus guilt cultures arises from Ruth Benedict's anthropological work on Japanese culture during WWII. She published it in about 1946 in a book called The Chrysanthemum and the Sword..
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. I'm not talking about using shame at the individual level
What I'm talking about is societal agreement that the kinds of things practiced by the psychopaths who have great power and influence in society (e.g. Bush and Cheney), such as lying us into unjustified wars, the casual mass killing of civilians, torture, etc., are deeply shameful.

Guilt won't work on these people because they lack consciences.

Do you think that if American society widely accepted these things as shameful that they would continue? These things ARE found out. Millions of Americans know about them. Yet they continue. I believe that people like Bush and Cheney and their Neocon collaborators (including whatever the forces are that keep these things continuing) would stop doing these things if they were considered deeply shameful.

Of course, I haven't very well addressed how we will get to that point. That is a monumental issue, well beyond the scope of this post, and I certainly don't have an answer for it.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. The answer likely lies in childrearing practices.
If we could only somehow manage to rear a generation of undamaged kids...

But of course "monumental" doesn't even come close to describing the enormity of that task. I can imagine the howls of outrage that would be raised if the government ever tried to provide families with adequate resources and interfere with people's God-given right to screw up their children.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. I agree
"Monumental" was the strongest word I could think of, but it is probably too weak of a word. How to get a generation of psychologically damaged adults to rear a generation of undamaged kids?

Yet societies have shown the capacity to change throughout human history. The change can come from external events (such as monumental catastrophes resulting from climate change), they can come from exceptional individuals who communicate new insights, and perhaps a lot of other things that I haven't thought of. What are the most effective means of producing societal change, and where to start are issues that could probably fill several books.

I just started reading a book titled "Toward Psychologies of Liberataion", by Mary Watkins and Helene Shulman. You may have read it (and you may be the one who recommended it to me). I just have read the preface so far. From the last page of the Preface:

Faced with these threats to the core of human existence, one must ask: Where are the forms of psychological, cultural, and social practice that would stand up to the forces of oppression and exploitation? ... Where are the psychological insights and practices that would accompany and sustain the social movements for peace, environmentally sustainable economies, and social justice?

Good to see that someone is trying to answer these questions. I look forward to reading the book.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. I'm happy to hear you're reading Psychologies of Liberation.
Yes, it was me who recommended it, although I haven't finished it yet either.

Yes, there certainly have been societal changes in response to great crises. Some of them have even been largely wholesome.

To again dip into "classic" culture-and-personality anthropology, I would remind you of Margaret Mead's New Lives for Old:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Lives-Old-Transformation-Manus-1928-1953/dp/0060958065


When Margaret Mead first studied the Manus Islanders of New Guinea in 1928, they were living with a Stone Age technology. Economically vulnerable and burdened by a complex moral code, the Manus seemed ill-equipped to handle the massive impact that World War II had on their secluded world. But a unique set of circumstances allowed the Manus to adapt swiftly to the twentieth century, and their experience led Mead to develop a revolutionary theory of cultural transformation, one that favors rapid, over piecemeal, change. As relevanttoday as it was a half-century ago, New Lives for Old is an optimistic examination of one society that chose to change, offering hope and a valuablemodel for today's developing societies.


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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
63. John Bradshaw wrote a LOT about this in the 80s.
He took the work of Alice Miller (Drama of the Gifted Child, For Your Own Good), pointing out the punitive, soul-crushing authoritarian child rearing that most of us are subjected to, in which you end up with lots of little Nazis who are busy following orders, rather than doing what's right, and expanded on it for an American audience.

All about toxic, unearned, unjustified guilt and shame. Thus giving people an outer-directed conscience to please others, rather than having an internal conscience.

He says the consequences of this punitive upbringing is that most people in society are in great pain, sick and addicted to one substance or activity or another to relieve their pain.

Three books I highly recommend to find out why so many of us never feel like we are good enough:

Please read in this order:
Books: 1. Bradshaw On:The Family a Revolutionary Way of Self-Discovery

2. Healing the Shame that Binds You

3. Homecoming:Reclaiming and Championing Your Inner Child

(Reprocessing your childhood experiences so you can get your developmental needs met)

www.johnbradshaw.com




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nightrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #63
66. thanks for bringing in Bradshaw. I was just about to mention him and his
idea of "healthy shame" and how that can be used.

His video series are also very informative--PBS.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. Imho, the shame is already there but hasn't been called up.
But calling up shame is not productive. It is, in fact, crippling. Most people will do anything to avoid that sensation so, it's not a very useful way to try to mobilize corrective action, pro-active or reactively.

(I hope I'm not misreading you, TFC.)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #29
55. I'm not sure if you're misreading me
What I'm doing is making an exception to the general rule that shame is not productive -- the exception being in the application of it to the psychopaths who our ruining our country and our world.

Two things bear mentioning in that regard, in response to your post:

First is that you make the point that shame is not productive because it is crippling. But in the case of the psychopaths who are ruining our country and our world, what is wrong with crippling their actions? I think that that is precisely what might be worth aiming for. We don't need them to mobilize correction action. We just need them to stop doing what they're doing.

Second, what I'm more specifically recommending is not attaching shame to specific individuals, but rather attaching it to highly destructive actions (like aggressive war and torture). As you note, most people will do anything to avoid shame. Therefore, I believe that if shame were attached to these kinds of actions they would occur much less frequently.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
16. Cults build membership through shame and guilt.
Edited on Sun Aug-08-10 11:19 AM by Overseas
"We are miserable sinners too but we found redemption in our fellowship by doing these simple things and sticking together. Make our group's mission the most important thing in your life and we will cheer and applaud for you. We have compassion for one another and cheer each others' successes in our group.

But if you dare step away you will be consumed with guilt and shame and destroy yourself. We have seen it happen. Hang tight with us. Other people just don't understand."

edited to add quotation marks.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
56. Yes, that is exactly what cults do
And I believe that in many respects our country has taken on the characteristics of a cult.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. American exceptionalism is cultist.
My country right or wrong.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
26. i took guilt too seriously, over too many things. as i got older, i learned to let go of guilt
it was a very healthy thing for me.

when starting to raise kids, i kept guilt away. i also recognized in not allowing guilt, i was depriving them a step in development. so i started using guilt. i highly recommend. but the productive use of guilt had me walking them thru the process to the point of letting that guilt go. so that guilt was not a weight on them, but a learning experience to empathize and feel and be insightful. i think this will better serve them in the long run.

guilt has its uses. guilt an be damaging.

shame? i have found no place for shame.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
27. bkmrk'd
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
33. "No one can make you feel inferior
without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. so true. so true. nt
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AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. That is not true. Children & vulnerable people can always be exploited.
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AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
38. Great, insightful OP.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
41. I believe this is one of your best OPs.
Thanks for the thread, Time for change.:thumbsup:
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
45. K & R nt
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felix_numinous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
51. What an excellent OP
This discussion brings up so much to think about. It reminds me of how many ways my own shame has come up in my own life, long after I thought I was "done' with all that. I wonder how pervasive and how many different ways shame and guilt show up in societies. It is present on multiple levels, both personal and cultural. Also it is used as one of the most powerful coins of the realm since it operates on the most basic tribal survival level of our existence.

I wonder, for example, if the feminist movement was derailed by shaming women into questioning their value in society? The movement seemed to morph from an issue of equal opportunity to guilt over whether to stay at home or not with kids, shame over being pro choice, being unattractive (read unlovable) for being strong, being responsible for breaking up families and unraveling society. The issue of equal opportunity turned into infighting, between women who chose a traditional role and those who did not. Although many many women have come a long way in the last 40 years, the use of shame and guilt explains to me how the issues were changed and women still have such a long way to go.

It is the nature of shame to interfere with our very identity . Our language feeds into this, for example instead of a person experiencing homelessness, they are homeless. A person is a Christian instead of a human being who at some point chose to join this church. We are human beings first, then we differentiate into our sex, beliefs, ideologies. It is shame that is used to divide us into hierarchies.

Shaming and guilt certainly have been useful tools against progressives, since it is invisible, and easy to deny. We say, oh, I am 'done with' all that. But who in their right mind wants to be the first one to step forward, risking being shamed (possible now with so many cameras everywhere) or publicly exposed?

It is shame that penetrates through different 'tribes' of society, which explains how a fundamentalist can hold back a progressive movement. I hadn't seen it so clearly before.

How wonderful indeed if shame and guilt could be put in their place against polluters, war profiteers, torturers, instead of being used against the truly innocent?

Thank you.



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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. Thank you -- you bring up so many good points.
Another point on the use of words: Immigrants who come to our country illegally are widely referred to as "illegals" -- obviously as a method of shaming them -- rather than as immigrants who have committed an illegal act. Yet I've never heard anyone who committed a white collar crime as an "illegal", even after conviction.
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felix_numinous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. Fox TV comes to mind
when you brought up 'illegals'. What really makes their style of tabloid infotainment so potent is their use of shame and blame and the condescending tone of voice they use. Makes my skin crawl actually. I think they really appeal to the authoritative types who need to beat someone down to feel validated.

In order to ask for what you want in life you have to feel worthy to even ask. Corporate media uses character assassination and ridicule, making examples of individuals to intimidate a whole group into silence. Everyone's fear is to be ridiculed on national TV. I wonder how many people they have emotionally destroyed by airing their personal story in a shaming way. So the shamed people stop even asking for their basic needs, food, shelter and safety.

It has come down to this. We on the left have to ask for what we want, like "Oh excuse me, I know you are busy with war and everything, but can I have something to eat?"

What a mind job.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
53. "Man is the only animal that blushes...or needs to." Mark Twain
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
60. Heart-touching and brilliant in logic OP
I usually don't read pop psycholgy.

Back in the late 1990's, a friend recommended Scott Peck's "People of the Lie".
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Thank you -- I loved "People of the Lie'
I thought it was one of the most interesting books I've ever read, though in retrospect I might slightly disagree with some of the ideas.
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Dystopian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
61. KandR.
Time for change~
You will never cease to amaze me...
Bookmarked, with much to ponder...
Thank you again.


peace~
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
62. Thank you for this. nt
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