2 dads coerced into falsely confessing to murdering their own kids!

[DailyGrind51]

(edited for copyright purposes-proud patriot Moderato Democratic Underground)

Those who believe that torture or coercion yields useful or valid information should consider the proven cases of false confessions from innocent persons produced through coercive interrogation techniques.





Wrongful Prosecutions: Still getting it wrong
Wrongful prosecutions of Jerry Hobbs, Kevin Fox show Illinois' justice system is broken


August 7, 2010


Two troubling cases.

Two men charged — threatened with execution — in the beastly murders of their own daughters. Both say their confessions were coerced by police. Both were cleared after DNA linked someone else to the crime.

The cases follow a familiar story line: In their haste to make an arrest, police zeroed in on the fathers. They narrowed their searches too soon, ignoring evidence or forgoing investigative avenues that might have taken them elsewhere. Their cases eventually fell apart, and both men were freed.

For 15 years, Illinois has struggled to overcome the failings that undermine its criminal justice system. Wrongful prosecutions, whether the result of human error or overzealous police work, are rare — but monumental. They destroy the trust on which the system stands.

In 2000, then-Gov. George Ryan declared a moratorium on executions in Illinois. The release of 18 Death Row inmates in 30 years raised serious doubts that the system worked when it mattered most. A series of reforms followed: mandatory taping of murder confessions, broader use of DNA analysis, restrictions on the use of jail house "snitches." It's not enough.

(snip)

Copyright © 2010, Chicago Tribune

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-hobbs-20100807,0,2022511.story

[MannyGoldstein]

1. The cops see that torture is OK, so they do it too.

We must return to the rule of law - both internationally and domestically.

[DailyGrind51]

31. Chicago taxpayers had to pay $19 million in settlements to wrongly convicted prisoners

tortured into false confessions by one police commander (Jon Burge) who is retired and still receiving his pension. He has been brought to trail on charges of perjury, because the statute of limitations has run out on abuse of power and assault charges.

[kenichol]

45. Too true!

An article I read in the Christian Century (a wonderful liberal Christian periodical) told how torture that is accepted in the military becomes accepted in other arenas, like police and corrections.

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. Gut instinct:

The murderer was either a powerful person in the community or one of their relatives, or one of the relatives of the police, or an actual policeman himself.

If they're going to go to this extreme then taking out the one person who would cause them the most trouble, the father, was a strategic move.

Can you tell I have little to no respect for our law enforcement agencies?

Didn't use to be this way.

[unblock]

8. my theory is far simpler. that these police are simply lazy.

i think much of the false arrest, profiling, harassment, false confession, etc. that happens is due simply to some police not caring to do it the proper, hard way, instead taking the easy path.

when the police have a tough murder to solve, often the parents become the prime suspects simply because they heard that that often happens and more importantly those may be among the very few names they can tie to the case.

so they make the facts fit the theory in order to be done with it. they don't like unsolved cases. they'd rather put an innocent man away.

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. If it's that simple then the answer is to have some agency come in

and check the policework. Actually, it's a good idea to have a neutral agency involved because the power structure in the law enforcement agencies that I deal with are either incompetent or too easily distracted by personal relationships.

[notesdev]

19. Let me propose an alterate theory

they aren't lazy, they are given too many stupid laws to enforce, and thus can't spend the time to do a proper job on the ones that actually matter.

[glitch]

51. The lazy stupid ones do seem to relish enforcing the stupid laws

like working on marijuana (or raw food) raids with cool DEA (or FDA) teams with neato guns and uniforms and shit.

[MrScorpio]

40. I'm going with lazy cops too nt

[LisaL]

27. I'd say your gut instinct is a way off.

And has nothing to do with reality.

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. And your proof is?

[LisaL]

34. Proof of what? Do a google search.

They haven't charged the guy whose DNA matched, probably because of what looks to be a major screw up with accusing the father, but they know who the guy is. Considering the guy's age, I'd say it's rather obvious he wasn't a policeman or a prominent member of the community at the time.

[The Backlash Cometh]

43. Well you did your homework.

I'll yield to your sleuthwork. Unfortunately, however, the days of assuming that policemen or other law enforcement are the good guys is over for me.

[DailyGrind51]

44. Yet, in the same state, a cop's wife drown in a dry bathtub, with another gone "missing",

yet, he was allowed to go free AND own firearms for years, until very recently!

"Drew Peterson, a former police officer in Bolingbrook, Ill., has been named a suspect in the Oct. 28, 2007 disappearance of his wife, Stacy Peterson. Authorities also are reinvestigating the death of his third wife, Kathleen Savio, who was found drowned in the bathtub of her home just weeks before the couple's divorce settlement was to be finalized. In february 2008, a report on a November autopsy of Savio's remains ruled her death a homicide, and Will County (Ill.) State's Atty. James Glasgow said the investigation was being considered a murder investigation. Peterson has not been charged with any crime and steadfastly has denied any involvement with either his third wife's death or his fou...
Drew Peterson, a former police officer in Bolingbrook, Ill., has been named a suspect in the Oct. 28, 2007 disappearance of his wife, Stacy Peterson. Authorities also are reinvestigating the death of his third wife, Kathleen Savio, who was found drowned in the bathtub of her home just weeks before the couple's divorce settlement was to be finalized. In february 2008, a report on a November autopsy of Savio's remains ruled her death a homicide, and Will County (Ill.) State's Atty. James Glasgow said the investigation was being considered a murder investigation. Peterson has not been charged with any crime and steadfastly has denied any involvement with either his third wife's death or his fourth wife's disappearance..."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/crime-law-justice/crimes/criminals/drew-peterson-PECLB004315.topic

[The Backlash Cometh]

58. All the preconceived assumptions we use to make about people,

they are a liability to us.

It's an amazing example you offer.

[CoffeeCat]

49. Do you think the police would cover up...

...a murder, if the murder was committed by someone who was one of their relatives?

Does stuff like that really happen? I always assumed that the police were under an
obligation to solve crimes, especially something as serious as murder.

You really think they would cover up for a relative or for a fellow police officer?

I'd seriously like to hear your opinion. I'm not doubting what you say, just wanting
to hear why you would think this.

[KansasVoter]

3. NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE IF YOU ARE ARRESTED! Get a lawyer immediately!

[Ikonoklast]

20. This cannot be repeated enough!

EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY INNOCENT, NEVER, EVER, EVER TALK TO POLICE BEFORE YOU TALK TO AN ATTORNEY.


The police have a disconcerting prediliction to make the 'facts' fit the crime, even if they need to invent them, distort your own words in order to use them against you, lie to you outright, or use violence to attain their pre-determined evidence of your guilt.

[KansasVoter]

35. 100% correct! The police do not care about you AT ALL. Or even finding the truth!

[Cronus Protagonist]

53. NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE PERIOD

Common sense, but if they arrest you, you have to say, "I am exercising my right to remain silent." And say nothing afterwards.

[formercia]

4. The DA closes a case and the system looks like it's working.

The M$M gets their timely story, the public gets the circus and blood lust satiated.

The perp feels emboldened and many times, goes on to repeat the crime.

[xchrom]

5. Recommend

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. You need to EDIT this so that it follows the clear copyright rules for this board

You are putting the board's owners at risk of litigation by not following those rules.

[Upton]

7. I've never understood

how anybody truly innocent could be coerced into confessing to a crime they didn't commit. Hell, they could question me all night long and threaten to cut off me genitals and I wouldn't confess to something I didn't do..

[ejpoeta]

9. these police officers are very skilled at what they do. and if their goal is to convince you that

confessing is in your best interest, then they may be able to get you to do that. they come at you in a small room for HOURS. they go out and come back in and you are sitting in that room. no matter what you say to them they aren't letting you out until they hear what they want to hear. after no sleep and relentless badgering i don't know that any of us wouldn't give in after enough time has passed. they can lie to you too. and if you ask for a lawyer, they think you're hiding something. and we've been conditioned to think that if we did nothing wrong we have nothing to worry about. and if you lawyer up you must be hiding something. and you don't want to appear to be hiding something do you?!?! but the fact is that you have a right to an attorney and you SHOULD keep your mouth shut.

[LisaL]

10. Someone from my high school had falsely confessed because he was

told by police they had a lot of evidence to convict him and eyewitness testimony identifying him as the one who did it. He is very lucky the real perp was caught eventually or his life would have been ruined.

[mrcheerful]

14. Or worse yet something as simple as saying or living in the area that the crime

happened in can lead to your conviction because the police can put you at the scene of the crime and that is all they need to do. Also if your a person that spends time by yourself a lot it makes it easier as you won't have an anyone to back up your claim of being elsewhere at the time of the crime.

[Ikonoklast]

22. "If you *were* the criminal, how would *you* have done this crime?"

"We know that you didn't do it, but how do you think it was done?"

The suspect answers, and this is put forth as his 'confession'.


This is the line police use when they decide they need to get a 'confession' from you, and people fall for this bullshit all the time.

[surrealAmerican]

17. In these cases, the men who confessed were vulnerable.

Their children had been brutally murdered. It's hard to think clearly when you've had that kind of shock.

[DailyGrind51]

56. Thank you!

[JonLP24]

61. Great point

I left that out. Yes! Under the right conditions almost anyone can be led to giving a false confession.

[NNN0LHI]

18. How about if they told you they were going to put you somewhere to be gang raped by other inmates?

Would that do it? Would you take the chance to find out if they were being serious about it? Or would you just do what they are demanding and try to sort it out later?

Because that is exactly what they did to one of these fathers whose daughter was murdered.

Don

[Upton]

23. Why should it?

Logically, confessing to murder is still going to put you in a place where the possibility of being gang raped by other inmates is very real...so the threat means nothing.

These men should have kept their mouths shut.

[NNN0LHI]

26. Because they promised they would segregate him if he confessed

And he believed the cops. See why now?

Don

[Mariana]

38. These men were in shock from the deaths of their children.

They couldn't have been thinking clearly or behaving rationally.

[DailyGrind51]

55. You say that because you have never undergone that type of interrogation.

If a question is repeated continuously for hours, perhaps days on end, with no opportunity for rest and reflection, "you" can be made to admit to anything, especially, if they make you believe that, "All you have to do is sign this, and we can all go home!"

[JonLP24]

60. Psycological pressures

Pretending to be your friend, (police)blame others in the situation, exaggerating about evidence, long interview sessions, lying that someone already implicated the subject that is being interviewed. It is not as difficult as you think to twist someone's memory into believing something that didn't happen.

Also having mental issues could play a role. IRC reading that they get through life generally accepting of the fact they are always wrong. In such a situations that kind of person would be much more likely to be accepting of whatever the police are asking.

[mrcheerful]

11. Rare my ass this is SOP in every police department nation wide and like the poster above

stated "do not talk to police without a lawyer" EVER. Sadly we are told the police are our friends and protectors from the bad people from an very early age. Then we hear cops say "come clean and I will make sure things will go easier on you" which is a lie as anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. The court system isn't any better, especially in states that have elected judges who can't be seen as soft on crime so they will push people into making plea bargains by telling them that if they don't accept the plea the judge will sentence them to the harshest sentence he can.

Public defenders are under paid, under staffed and often are just tokens of justice because of their case loads so instead of defending people who are brought into court they too will push the suspect into accepting a plea even if they know the suspect is innocent. What broke the system was the tough on crime mentality that started in the late 60's, where people voted for harsher sentences for those convicted, then it really took off in the 80's when the prison system was taken over by private prisons.

Then theres the 3 strike law that was enacted. We the people are screwed when we become a target for police, as in these 2 cases, police as a rule focus on a person and go out of their way to get that person, guilt or innocence rarely enter the picture as long as the police believe your guilty.

[randr]

12. I recently watched a show that exposed the failures of current police interogation methods

Almost half of the persons exonerated by new evidence of crimes had confessed to the crime after police tactics.

[cbayer]

15. DailyGrind51,

Please be aware that our posting rules require that you limit copyrighted material to four paragraphs with a link.

Thanks,

cbayer
DU Moderator

[DailyGrind51]

54. Thanks!

[rocktivity]

16. Why didn't they compare the fathers' DNA from the get-go?

That would have solved the problem before it even began!

:shrug:
rocktivity

[LisaL]

25. It clearly says in the OP article prosecution knew since 2008

DNA found on the body of the child didn't match the father.

[WinkyDink]

21. Sounds like a "Law and Order" ep!

[TexasObserver]

24. Most citizens could not stand up to police interrogation.

There are almost no rules the police must follow. They can be physically abusive. They can deprive you of privacy, or the right to use the bathroom. They can deprive you of food or make you go without water. They can do just about anything they want short of actual torture. They can lie to you. They can tell you any lie they want about the evidence, the crime, or what someone has said.

All police interrogations should be videoed from start to finish, and if the video is not available, nothing that came from the interrogation should be allowed into evidence. Abuse by police is an epidemic, and the interrogation of suspects is part of that.

[mrcheerful]

28. Yeah how many folks have been convicted of crimes that never happened?

Like the recent Al Gore Rape scandal. All it takes is for 2 people to tell a story to the police and if they convince the police that the crime took place thats all thats needed, happens in assault cases a lot. Or a crime scene that the victim purposely tampered with to make the crime seem like a friend committed the crime when the victim got revenge bug up their ass and the police clearly can see the scene was tampered with? I had a friend that happened to and the really crazy part was the day the crime happened on the guy was behind bars, he got 5 years for the crime.

And god forbid that you know someone or a group the police want to lock up, guilt by association, they pick you up on a minor criminal charge like possession and try to get you to make drug buys. There are so many ways to lose your freedom it isn't funny and once you get on the police radar screen its impossible to get off. The average citizen never realizes how close they are to be arrested at any given moment of their lives and by the time they do realize it they are behind bars wondering how they got there. A few posts up you can see one such person, they always say the same thing "if your not guilty then you won't confess" yeah right.

[AnArmyVeteran]

30. Gov GW Bush never once considered the lives of people he executed.

Bush as governor oversaw more executions than any other state. Even inmates whose lawyers slept through their trails were not allowed a stay. Bush, the 'christian', openly laughed at one inmate pleading for her life. Bush knew right wingers love executions. The same people who whine about not trusting government DO trust government to execute, go to war, spy, torture, illegally wiretap, and indefinitely hold people without charges. When is a leading democrat going to expose their fraudulent positions?

[raccoon]

46. Wish I could rec your post. nt

[AnArmyVeteran]

50. Thanks!

[LisaL]

36. There never was an Al Gore rape scandal.

The woman didn't even claim she was raped.

[Odin2005]

32. All police should be assumed to be evil authoritsrian pigs.

[NNN0LHI]

33. That is the problem. They are all not evil authoritarian pigs

I have known some good ones and I have known some bad ones. Known more good ones in my life than bad ones. I mean straight shooters. The kind of guys that would turn in their own fellow officers if they were corrupt.

Its a mistake to lump them all together.

Don

[KansasVoter]

37. VERY FEW cops would turn in a fellow officer for abusing a suspect!

[DailyGrind51]

57. While a Chicago cop was beating up a female bartender, his pals guarded the door!

And, you can watch it all on YouTube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49kgG0s7lVk

[Mariana]

39. But enough of them are that when you interact with one

it's best to assume that you're dealing with an evil authoritarian pig and behave accordingly.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. Only an idiot would offer the benefit of the doubt to such

a group of people under such circumstances. Assume they are corrupt in every way.

[Odin2005]

42. They all protect the "bad" ones, so they are all culpable.

[raccoon]

47. And the same could be said of doctors. nt

[The Magistrate]

48. Every Police Officer and Prosecutor Involved, Sir, Should Be On Trial For Attempted Murder

These deliberate frame-ups will continue until there are stern consequences for having engaged in them. Odds are, no one will even be fired from a police force over this, when any consideration of just desserts would require life in prison at a minimum for the act.

[mzmolly]

52. Imagine the fate of these men without DNA.

How many innocent people have been executed due to false confessions? :(

[DailyGrind51]

59. DNA compelled the overturning of so many verdicts in IL, that former Gov. George Ryan suspended the

death penalty.

[mzmolly]

62. Good grief.

:( Are you familiar with the West Memphis 3? Horrible miscarriage of justice. NO DNA from the three accused has been recovered, and DNA from others has been explained away.